Ian Westmoreland | Mentoring Men and Making a Difference - how to go from Self-doubt to Success | EP 03

[TRANSCRIPT]

[0:00:00] (Craige Hardel): A warm welcome to another episode of The High Achievers podcast. I am your host, Craige Hardel, and today we have quite a special guest. And with The High Achiever podcast, we profile and interview experts from various fields who have overcome quite a bit and who are now willing and ready to share their life stories, their journeys, their transitions, be the people that they are and to serve as a guiding light for others who are on their paths as well.

[0:00:32] (Craige Hardel): Today we profile none other than Ian Westmoreland. Let me say this over, I will cut it out. Today we feature a very special guest by the name of Ian Westmoreland. I hope I'm pronouncing this correctly and a brief biohair. Ian has spent 42 years working with the Australian and New Zealand telecommunications and energy industry as an It Project manager. In 2013, he had a life changing moment where he decided to retire from work and now and begin as a volunteer.

[0:01:09] (Craige Hardel): He has done that among with many setbacks to now having two companies. And one of these companies is a foundation that is called Mentoring by Men and also another one called Kint Sugi Heroes. And Ian has also been married for 40 years, has four children and twelve grandchildren. A very large family. So, with that said, without any ado extra ado, I'd like to welcome Ian to our podcast. Welcome Ian, to the High Achievers podcast.

[0:01:45] (Ian): Good morning, Craige. How are you this morning?

[0:01:49] (Craige Hardel): Doing awesome. It's interesting because literally on other ends of the world, by the way, listeners, ian is all the way in Australia, and I am actually on an island called St. Lucia in the Caribbean. So literally, at opposite time zones, at the time of recording, it's five or 07:00 p.m.. So this will make for an interesting conversation. So, Ian, now that I've more or less introduced, you tell our listeners essentially who you are and give them a bit of a background as to what led you to be the person you are today.

[0:02:28] (Ian): So my background I was raised in Melbourne, in Australia. I'm one of four kids. As a young kid growing up, I lacked a lot of confidence. I struggled with self confidence. In fact, one of my early goals was to be average. Craig, I'm getting a lot of feedback here.

[0:02:58] (Craige Hardel): My settings. Okay, say something.

[0:03:04] (Ian): Testing, testing. 1234.

[0:03:06] (Craige Hardel): I can hear you.

[0:03:08] (Ian): Is that hold? Just testing, testing. There's nothing coming back here.

[0:03:13] (Craige Hardel): Okay, yes.

[0:03:16] (Ian): So I grew up in Melbourne, one of four kids. All right. Okay, so I grew up in Melbourne, in Australia, one of four kids. And as a teenager growing up, I lacked a lot of confidence. In fact, one of the goals I set for myself, if only I could be average later on. And one of the ways I compensated for that, I was very good at sport, I played a lot of tennis and squash, and I became quite competitive and I felt that made me more of a desirable person if I was actually good at something like that. So I came from, I guess, a fairly low base, confidence wise.

[0:04:03] (Ian): I also went from being ducks of primary school to failing my way in year twelve at high school. Again, through lack of confidence, peer pressure. All of my mates failed as well. And so I took the first job I could get, which was working for the Australian Government as a clerk. But I always felt there was something better for me within that. So I started setting up businesses on the side. I used my sporting ability. A lot of people come and watch me play squash and tennis, so I started importing and selling squash rackets and tennis rackets.

[0:04:39] (Ian): And then years later, when I met my wife, we actually bought what we call a milk bar or a general store in Melbourne, which we made quite successful. All the time I was doing this, I was still working full time. In the early years of marriage, we struggled financially. We had four kids. We had the first three kids very quickly, and again, always looking to make money on the side. But gradually I managed to work my way into better and better paid positions and moved into the It space.

[0:05:17] (Ian): There's a huge step forward. In 1995, when I quit my job with a major telecom company in Australia to take up a contract position in New Zealand, I went to two and a half times the pay that I'd been on, and that started to really set us up. My wife, who'd been cleaning houses and disbutting plants for one of her brothers, was able to stop work and become a mum and also get her own sporting career going.

[0:05:48] (Ian): And I was able to leverage off that experience in New Zealand to come to Sydney in Australia to take up an even higher paid position. So my career was taking off, I was getting well paid, I was delivering software changes. And then in 2013, I started to think there's more to life than just making money and delivering software. I thought there was more meaning. And this thought occurred to me for several months.

[0:06:15] (Ian): And then on the 10 September 2013, I got on the train to come to work and I continued reading a book that my youngest daughter had given me. And when I turned the page that morning, what I read just deeply impacted me. It resonated, it queried the meaning of my life in a way that left no doubt that there was a greater purpose for me. And in May 2014, I quit paid work. So since that date, I've been a full time volunteer.

[0:06:51] (Ian): I initially started, I felt called to mentor young kids in Sydney high schools. So I was mentoring at multiple schools, incredibly fulfilling. The feedback I got, the impact that I was having just by being a listingeer, just by being someone on their team, supporting and encouraging, became clear to me that this is a good thing to do. So in addition to that, I started mentoring kids in primary schools through a different mentoring program.

[0:07:22] (Ian): And I also became a coordinator for yet another mentoring program aimed at families. And then in 2018, I was mentoring a young guy at one of those Sydney high schools. And in the first meeting I had with him, he shared that his father had suicided. His mother was an addict who was in and out of rehab. He was living with his grandparents, which he hated. And then he just turned and looked at me, looked straight in my eyes, and he started crying.

[0:07:53] (Ian): And he said, Ian, help me. What can you do? What can you do? And I debriefed with a program counselor later on, I guess, looking for advice. And she said to me, Ian, are you okay? And I said, yeah, I'm okay. And she asked again, and I just started crying about the situation. And I was flat for a couple of months. And it took me that long to realize I actually wanted to have a mentor just like these young people that I've been mentoring.

[0:08:24] (Ian): And I should explain, mentoring is such a broad term for most people in business. Mentoring means someone with skills, experience, knowledge, guides, and advises someone else. I call that business mentoring. But what I'd been doing and what I felt I needed was life mentoring. And life mentoring is predominantly listening, actively listening. It's supporting, it's encouraging. The people that we're mentoring aren't broken.

[0:08:55] (Ian): They don't need fixing. They just need someone to validate them. So I looked around for an organization where men supported men through life mentoring and was surprised and incredibly disappointed to find there was nothing that suited what I was looking for. So it motivated me to write a proposal to establish an organization called Mentoring Men. Now, there's a whole lot of events that happen along the way, and miracles, I guess, that led me along this path. But in November 2018, Mentoring Them was officially launched.

[0:09:39] (Ian): My wife and I put our money into funding it. I got the local federal MP to be an ambassador for the program. I'd met him because I went to a community event where he shared about his father's suicide. And I saw parallels between what I was doing, which mentoring Men is essentially one of the key parts of suicide prevention. And so he got on board, and the organization grew rapidly. I totally underestimated how much work was involved in doing this.

[0:10:13] (Ian): I didn't have all the skill sets. I knew very little about social media. Mentoring Men were set up as a company. How do I produce a constitution? I needed legal expertise, but it didn't stop me. I just kept going. And a number of people came on board. The purpose just resonated with them, and the organization grew and grew and in 2020, at the end of 2021, there were sufficient finances from donations, from grants, from philanthropists for me to step aside as the CEO and to appoint a paid CEO and a paid team. So there's now a team of about ten people who run Mentoring Men.

[0:11:01] (Ian): I continue as a director on the board. Obviously, I'm talking about it now. I'm an ambassador for the program. But the program just is going from strength to strength. So at its core, we train up volunteer men in Australia through our own mentor training course and also through suicide prevention, and then we carefully match them to another man who may be going through life challenges like job loss, relationship breakdown, loneliness, isolation, addiction.

[0:11:32] (Ian): And the relationship is a long term, one to one mentoring relationship. And we're saving lives, we're transforming lives through that program.

[0:11:45] (Craige Hardel): Just to wrap up, because I wanted to delve into take a pause and delve into again, your story is quite extensive in terms of where we were and really what led you to, first of all, founding Mentoring Men, and now, like you said, stepping aside and having an actual paid team and start running it. But I wanted to pause a bit for someone who typically hasn't gotten this far yet, and they're in that stage where they have a family and they're probably struggling to make ends meet.

[0:12:29] (Craige Hardel): Yes, they're putting food on the table, but they're not thriving. They're essentially surviving. And what are some of the pitfalls, generally, that one would expect? And how did you make your way around those?

[0:12:49] (Ian): It's a great question. I think one of the things I've seen is we're all risk adverse to some point. I mentioned that my career changed direction when I quit my job after 22 years of working for a company I quit. At that time, they were giving packages to people. Packages means you might get a year's worth of pay. I didn't get that. It's a huge risk to leave a permanent, secure position, to take up a contract in another country.

[0:13:24] (Ian): I was unqualified. I still can't believe I did that. But my wife was very encouraging. And I think the first thing I'd say to people is, don't be silly with it. But a lot of people get held back because they're not prepared to take a step out in faith or take that risk step. So that's the first thing I'd say. The second thing, and particularly what I've seen with Mentoring Men, I encounter a lot of very intelligent people with fantastic ideas.

[0:13:57] (Ian): But they can't take the next can't. It's not the right word. They haven't taken the next step to actually bring it to fruition. And I see this again and again, and I'm not sure if it's analysis paralysis. They keep looking at the thing over and over and again. I like the expression Ready, fire, aim. I think some people are Ready, aim, aim. Aim. Aim. So that's the first thing. The second thing, I think it's things that are relatively easy for me.

[0:14:32] (Ian): I'll do whatever it takes to make something happen. If it's boring admin stuff or whatever, I'll just do that. But sometimes these people just can't seem to take that first step to actually write out a business plan or write out a document. And I think another thing is fear. And I think back to my own experience. I had an opportunity to talk about mentoring men on we have community radio over here. I don't know if you have it there, but there's a lot of radio stations, very small, very few people listen to them.

[0:15:06] (Ian): And one of the guys I connected.

[0:15:08] (Craige Hardel): With, I actually used to be a radio host in the past.

[0:15:14] (Ian): One of these guys said to me, come and talk about mentoring men on community radio. And I was frightened. And I said to him, well look, okay, but tell me the questions you're going to ask. And then we worked out what the questions were. Then I wrote out all my answers. I put everything on a piece of paper, and I sat opposite the radio station thinking, why am I doing this? Absolute fear. And I went in there with my questions.

[0:15:43] (Ian): He asked the first question. I read out my answer, and then he asked me a different question for number two, which I didn't have on my paper. And I said, well, that's a great question. I said, if you had asked me this, this is what I would have said. So this is the base. But I stepped out and did that. And yet a few months later, I was interviewed live on sky television in Australia, like a national program.

[0:16:07] (Ian): And again, I was petrified, but it came across well. And now talking with you. And I've done lots of these types of things. So it's just overcome that fit. Just step out and give it a go. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay not to be perfect, and you just strive to get better. So they're the things I would say.

[0:16:30] (Craige Hardel): I believe generally people, it's one thing to put your family at risk, but it's another thing generally to make a calculated decision. And like you said, a lot of people get the best out of them. And while sometimes security is a very good thing in that in a sense there is a guarantee. But what about the opportunity cost and what about the regret that comes from that? A lot of people aren't happy deeply. Not because of what someone else did to them, but what they did not have the courage to do for themselves, right?

[0:17:12] (Craige Hardel): And typically that's where you speak of midlife crises and a lot of regret and resentment bubbles up. One really generally has to be able to strike a balance in that they have to try to make a calculated they have to take a calculated risk sometimes. And that's why it's easier to make transitions when you're young and if you're older you have a family. That could be a little tricky. But one thing that comes up is that generally people need to even if you don't fully transition into what you really want to do, or at least do it part time somewhat.

[0:17:52] (Craige Hardel): And I know in your case you had to leave to take a contract position, so that's like a 360 switch, but generally people could ease into that. So my point is that generally you don't necessarily have to fully put your family and their survival and wealthy at risk, but people use their fear and their inaction as a reason and excuses. They stuck. And I think that's a big problem for a lot of people.

[0:18:20] (Ian): So yeah, I fully agree with what you're saying. I remember there was a survey done of elderly people asking them about regrets in life and one of the top ones was that they didn't take enough risks. But I thought that was really good what you said as well, that if there's opportunities to maintain some security but then do stuff part time and to see how that goes, which is what I was able to do with these other businesses. I still had my full time job and I would just work in any of the spare hours on other activities and that enabled me to build up experience and knowledge.

[0:19:08] (Ian): We sort of haven't talked about education as well, but I guess more about this for the second business. But I love reading biographies, autobiographies, so find role models, people that emulate that you relate to, have gone through something similar. I'll put him together where it's actually.

[0:19:37] (Craige Hardel): Where we were transitioning because I wanted to delve into because from your story so you had your job at a particular time, you and your wife at the time, both were really doing your best to make end meet and to really carry the family. But that transition, a lot of people struggle with it, sometimes even knowing the right thing to do. And there goes about how I mean, it's one thing to know what to do, but really how is relaxing stuff.

[0:20:13] (Craige Hardel): You mentioned education, but generally a lot of people really don't. There is this imposter syndrome, right, that they feel whether it's striking out on their own, whether it's doing something that's outside of the norm. I wanted you to speak specifically and that dovetails nice into this point, into how you got over that.

[0:20:39] (Ian): Yeah, really interesting question. So when I started working with the Australian government, I was in awe of all the people in higher designations. For some reason I thought the cream would always rise to the top, how good these people were, and I could never get there. But as it's gone on, I've realized that we're all equal, we're all just people. They've got their own stories, they've got their own insecurities and doubts and I now have far less concerns around that. I've had the opportunity to meet some of the senior people in the Australian government through mentoring men.

[0:21:24] (Ian): I talk to business leaders around the world now and I don't have that awe of that. I guess that could be one of the things that can hold us back. I did think of something else that I'm very process driven and this may help some people who are struggling to make the decision that you talked to progress that you were talking about. And I get an Excel spreadsheet. I will list the options that I've got and it could be to keep doing the same. It could be option A or option B and that's across the columns.

[0:22:05] (Ian): I'll then put rows down all the factors to take into account. So for instance, when I made the decision to move to New Zealand it was money was going to be one of the things job security, the impact on the family, immediate family and the broader family, the lifestyle, the kids, education and a whole bunch of other things. I then put a weighting factor on how important each one of those was. Clearly I keep talking about money and now I don't care about money. But money was it might be five out of five whereas something like the ability for me to continue playing the sport that I like to do might be one out of five.

[0:22:46] (Ian): And then I would put a score against each of those different options, multiply it by the weighting factor and then total it up. And what that often did it helped clarify my own mind a decision that maybe was already there. So that could be something that could help some of the listeners realize what if one stands out? If there's something they think they want to do and then they go through that process and they get a score? That is significantly bigger than staying where they are or conversely, staying where they are. That may then help them make the best decision for them.

[0:23:24] (Craige Hardel): I definitely do agree that sometimes all our decisions shouldn't just be cut driven and whether it's the pros or consists of using actual criteria like you just mentioned to really factor in and away the implications and also the potential rewards of particular decisions that definitely is helpful. And something as simple as that can change your life and it can actually prevent you from making the wrong decision. Because sometimes our gut is wrong, especially when we lack experience.

[0:23:59] (Craige Hardel): And that's the thing. A lot of people who are young, unbridled, that's good. But sometimes it may make you big mistakes as well. And what's necessary, even with all the youthfulness vibrant energy that's fantastic, is actual perspective sometimes. So slowing down, writing things down, weighing things out essentially really does help with that. And let's transition here because you mentioned something I really want to delve into for this interview and that is the notion, and we did speak about this outside of this interview, that is the notion of fulfillment.

[0:24:41] (Craige Hardel): And we're sold generally what success is or should be. And it is my belief, especially as a coach, that people generally are unhappy because they're living other people's lives unconsciously, and they do not realize that they're playing by someone else's roles, working alongside someone else's plans, and they really don't have a big enough idea or clear enough picture of what success really looks like for them.

[0:25:17] (Craige Hardel): So none of the actions in the moment matter. We can waste as much time as we want, and generally we have all the time in the world. But we both know, especially the pandemic, especially at the time we're recording this, and if crises of many kinds, that is never the case. So postponing success, whether it's to retirement, whether it's to when you can afford to take that location that's longer than two weeks, right?

[0:25:43] (Craige Hardel): Or any other form of gratification that's so far out is not quite the way to do it. However, we have to learn how to really design a life for us that we clear as to the essential thing that we want across areas, and absolutely leave that out. Can you tell us a bit as to what are your views on this and generally how you went about doing this?

[0:26:09] (Ian): Okay, so first I'd like to give a definition of success that resonates with me, and that is that success is the progressive realization of a worthwhile dream. Now, you talked about retirement. I don't use the word retirement for me. I've just stopped paid work. I used to think early on how good it would be to go and play golf all the time. And I actually back onto a golf course where I live. I haven't played there for two years.

[0:26:42] (Ian): I'm too busy enjoying being fulfilled, to use your word, doing this sort of stuff. I would rather help other people than go and play golf. For me. Now, I'm not judging people who play golf. That's fine if that's what they want to do. I thought about this a few months ago. I guess the meaning of life for me, I defined what this is ian's view of the best life. And the best life for me is where we use our skills and experience to positively impact the world around us.

[0:27:15] (Ian): It's where we find true fulfillment and contentment. It's where we're authentic, where we're vulnerable, where we're honest. Now, it's very difficult. I understand that for many people, if you're struggling financially, it's responsible to be focused on trying to make money, to support family or whatever. But to me, that's my definition of the best life. And interestingly, when we're born, we start off with some of those qualities. We're truly vulnerable, we're truly authentic.

[0:27:48] (Ian): And then life experiences hit us. Most of the experiences are negative, some can be positive, but we could suffer abuse. We get caught up in materialism. We have victims of advertising and things like that. And I find it sad that so many people lose sight of whatever their best life is. And I've shown this slider that I've produced and hundreds of people my goal is just to get people to maybe take a step back and just think what could their best life be? Is this what they're living in Australia? We have billionaires who are suicidal, who are unhappy and there's never enough wealth for them.

[0:28:36] (Ian): And I just find that sad. You talk about fulfillment and contentment. For me, one of the driving forces for me is just giving back and helping someone else. That's where I personally get my contentment and fulfillment. Grace I'm not sure if I answered your question there, but that's interesting because.

[0:28:56] (Craige Hardel): You mentioned the point about the billionaires because we have an aversion to thinking that success is having simply a lot of money or being extremely healthy or being extremely happy every time, like AC at all powered now. And what we realize is never one of any extreme. We will have ups and downs and also we will have versions that are shown to us, right? For example, the billionaire and you see the boat and all of the other luxurious amenities that you would see, whether it's on Instagram, YouTube, et cetera.

[0:29:38] (Craige Hardel): But for me, where I really love to delve into what fulfillment and the version of success that really fully satisfies looks to us and that may be different from for each and every person. So in your case you did mention that it really fulfills you to help others to give back and to really give and be of service. And for people they may have slightly different goals. And the misunderstanding is that when social media, because of what's popular, having a lot of likes, reactions, comments, views, we unconsciously believe that that is what we should be striving towards, right?

[0:30:24] (Craige Hardel): And we all need to be sufficient. We all need to make sure that we're prepared and we're financially sound and safe and our future is taken care of. We're not speaking below that at all. But even when you have a lot of money, there's a level beyond that. Studies have shown that after $100,000 a year, above that, your happiness doesn't quite increase, right? And that speaks to my point because it ain't just money, right?

[0:30:50] (Craige Hardel): And like you said, there are quite a few people who have money and they're miserable because having a lot of money brings its own problems, whether it's how one manages the time, how one manages all of the influences around them, right, the friends, et cetera, and really whether they're living the life that they want to. A lot of people may say that they not just have businesses or they have empire, but they really have jobs, meaning they may have the external trappings, but they don't really control everything.

[0:31:25] (Craige Hardel): And where I'm really getting at with this is that a really fulfilled life isn't just given to you, but you have to consciously design what that looks like for you. Just like some people who like to live more in the countryside and they like to have the farm and the ranch and the animals and raise a family there. There are some people on the other end that would work for at all and that's fine, but people have to be very clear as to what that looks like for them. What do you have to say about that?

[0:31:53] (Ian): Yeah, so firstly on money, I saw a quote this week that said money can be a very useful servant, but it's a terrible master. And I think that's how we should that's a healthy way to look at money. Money can be important, obviously, for food and sustenance, but when it rules our life, where it determines every decision we make, it impacts relationships and things like that, where it's become the master then that's the issue.

[0:32:24] (Ian): The second thing you talked about there was like on social media, and I see social media there's positives, but there's some incredible negatives as well. I've heard Facebook called Bragbook. People put up the very best of themselves on Facebook and that can cause other people to feel inadequate. We run our mentor training courses and as part of that, there's a talking circle and it's on the second day of the course. Trust has built up now. I used to think that everybody had it together.

[0:32:58] (Ian): I was the only one who had these self doubts and all that. But when this group of men, often they were leaders in industry and business, and then when they start talking about the stuff that's going on in their lives, many of them had suicide ideation before. They missed loved ones, they're grieving, they can't get access to kids, they've had relationships fall apart. There's been tragedy all the way along the line.

[0:33:29] (Ian): So the reality is that virtually all of us struggle in life with some different things. And yet social media gives this impression often that, look at me, I've got this fantastic holiday, I'm eating this amazing meal and look at this beautiful family and everything's going to get the danger is that people may see that that's what all these people have got and I haven't got that. It's a lie. Obviously some lives are more together than other lives, but the bulk of people struggle at some point in their lives and that should be and it's okay, it's okay to struggle.

[0:34:14] (Craige Hardel): A couple of things there. One is that people have to realize that one, it's all capitalist driven, so algorithm driven, it's really what pays. And if a feature is launched, it's not necessarily always for your well being, but because it's linked to increased retention and increased revenue. So the point is that humanity and your interest typically is not built into the algorithm. So that's. One. So that's why you have and famous whistleblower you may know of Treasonaris, typically speaks of how social media really is a game of extremes, extreme negativity. If you go through the YouTube algorithm and you go on incognito so it doesn't know anything about you, the videos will go more on the extreme side because typically that's what creates the strongest reaction within you which actually leads you to scroll.

[0:35:14] (Craige Hardel): So you see that with the content that you view on your feed as well with your friends. So the more negative, the more extreme, the more risky behaviors points of view is typically what will get the most traction and even if it wasn't that way, people would simply not be as hooked. So that's one. Secondly, you mentioned the mental health of a lot of men and men, women as well have quite a bit of issues but social media typically doesn't show that part. I mean, if we were to look at things like Myanmar and the many issues that were there, how in certain countries in Africa the majority of the population trust Facebook more than their local news, right?

[0:36:02] (Craige Hardel): So these organizations have quite a bit of sweeping impact on cultures. It's not just people, it's cultures, it's elections if you even want to go there, right? And I'm mentioning this because people don't realize how this redounds down to the individual. And you have to get a grip on this if you have to have any sort of control over your life. And part of that control is understanding that what you see is not always what is and it's not always what you should pattern yourself by.

[0:36:36] (Craige Hardel): Let's transition into the business side of things. And I want to mention the fact that a lot of tech companies generally as they grow, you have certain influencers who jump on this platform and they do well. However, the average entrepreneur typically doesn't catch that trend. And what happens is that they just struggle whether advertising gets too expensive, whether their business is really just they may have a good idea, they may have a good product, but they're struggling to get any attention.

[0:37:12] (Craige Hardel): But the interesting thing is that generally as those companies start growing, you would find that they end up resorting to marketing tactics and strategies from gurus who used to make their it was easier for them to grow. But now they teach from this place that what they teach isn't what they practice. So what you find that is a lot of people who end up really getting bamboozled not just by the fact that the methods don't quite work as well as they should, but just the personas of such individuals.

[0:37:51] (Craige Hardel): And I want to speak on this because we model ourselves by particular people generally that don't really understand us and I'm speaking to the average person here and we paid our view of what success looks like. Can you tell our listeners and our viewers how you went around that, because if you open YouTube, it's easy to see Gary V or someone who's popular elsewhere or Taylor Swift or somebody, and it's very hard to resist the comparison and whether that's the business space as well.

[0:38:26] (Craige Hardel): How does one navigate such loopholes so that they could be content in what they're really pursuing but also not get distracted?

[0:38:41] (Ian): I think I understand the question. I talked before about ready, fire, aim, and just making a move. So talk about the mentoring men logo, which is basically two M's. It's meant to look like a mountain. I didn't have any experience in graphic design. We didn't have any money. So I used PowerPoint and I came up with the initial logo that we used and that was sufficient to launch and to get some promotional material done.

[0:39:11] (Ian): Later on when money started to support, started to come in, went to a graphic designer and got the logo redone professionally. And then later on we actually engaged a company and they came along and changed the whole branding, the logo, the color schemes, and there was this color palette and all that sort of stuff. And I think like the Taylor Swift thing, it's like, okay, what can I afford? What if I got the ability? What if I got the time to do when you just do the best you can and then I'd love the constantly refining, reviewing.

[0:39:46] (Ian): How could we do this better? So we just started kinsugi heroes. Again, the same thing happened. We're funding it. My wife and I are funding this ourselves. Kinsugi Heroes is where we record a conversation with someone who's been through adversity, and the objective is to provide hope and inspiration to people going through life challenges, but also education to the broader community, how to better support someone going through those life challenges.

[0:40:15] (Ian): Now this has been done on a shoestring, and again, the logo I think was $100 logo. We found someone on the internet who would do that. And as this grows, then I guess the professionalism, if you like, behind it in terms of the editing of the podcast and the books that are going to follow and all that will just keep growing. So I think it's you mentioned Taylor Swift. People sometimes think these people are an overnight success.

[0:40:48] (Ian): Wow. But you'll see, often there's been years, decades of learning and work that's gone into this. So I think it's an unfair comparison, maybe to use it as a benchmark, someone like that. But again, the vast majority of people don't have that level of expertise or those finances to produce such a product. And in many cases, it doesn't matter that much. It's not necessarily going to impact the success of the business, having things done to the ultimate professional level.

[0:41:27] (Craige Hardel): The reason why I happen this so much is that as brands like these, because these individuals are brands, whether we admit it or not, right? Brands, celebrities, are pushed by the algorithm so much it almost sort of gives the average business owner or the average family wants to start a business. It almost makes them feel like they don't have any home and that their efforts are suitable. And for me the most egregious thing is that when a lot of these individuals really not only did you not very related to the average person but they're not very honest as to what it takes for what it took for them to actually get there.

[0:42:11] (Craige Hardel): And if you ever attended any Masterminds or you've ever seen behind the scenes of a lot of launches of a lot of really operations of six or even seven or eight figure companies, it's not always as perfect as it is on the outside. And I'm not saying that every company doesn't have its issues that's normal. But the point is that there is a lot of misrepresentation in an obsession of keeping up the image and not really sure about how things are.

[0:42:40] (Craige Hardel): So you would find that the average family man for example, or married person doesn't feel connected with any of these individuals or the average person who is single in the apartment trying to build a six figure, seven figure business. They don't feel like they relate to these individuals and a lot of times they just can't. And a lot of these by the way, is not in the name of marketing having this perfect image. A lot of them have people mind your social media, their brands.

[0:43:10] (Craige Hardel): So that is really where I'm coming from in that a lot of individuals don't get the real as to the sacrifice. And we're speaking about this the sacrifices that are made, the sacrifices that have to be made as you run your journey, they only just see the destination because that's what's shining.

[0:43:31] (Ian): Yeah, I agree. I think if people are out there looking for the one miracle, the one thing that's going to take them from where they are to where they want to be, I'm sorry to disappoint them but I don't believe that one thing is there. I believe what I've done is just look for ideas and then just keep trying and try this, try this, try this and gradually momentum will build. I could give an example.

[0:43:58] (Ian): As part of the Kinsuki Heroes we received our first funding to capture stories of Australian people impacted by the major bushfires we had a couple of years ago. And I just made a list of all the things that I could do to help create awareness within that area of Australia. So I rang the local paper, small newspaper and I said look, I've got this project about to start. Can we do a story about it? And they said sure. So I met with them, virtually got an article in the paper. Within two or 3 hours one of the major radio stations rang me and said we've just seen the story in the newspaper. Could we talk to you about the program on the air?

[0:44:43] (Ian): Absolutely. And it's things like that, but I might have tried nine other things that didn't lead anywhere. But that's okay. They're not mistakes like you learn from these things. I think sometimes there's this view that a mistake or failure is all negative, but they can be some of the best pointers. In fact, you learn far more from mistakes and failures than you learn from successes. So no miracle cure.

[0:45:11] (Ian): Just keep trying different things and just see where it goes. Keep reviewing. Don't keep doing the same thing expecting a different result. Just keep doing more and more different things. That would be the advice I have. And, yeah, the people that held up as key success markers, you'd be surprised at the level of effort that they've put in to get to that point. The sacrifices, as you talked about, grace but in some cases, they're not as successful as you think. Sometimes you can look at these people and a few weeks later they could be bankrupt. And then you find out there's a house of cards.

[0:45:48] (Craige Hardel): Yeah. I believe it's really important that people understand that it's okay to not be perfect. And your imperfection, the fact that your story is a little messy and you didn't take the straight line actually is a big part of what makes you unique. And people have to genuinely be okay with that. And whether maybe you were incarcerated before or whether you disabled to some extent, whether you had children young, whether you went bankrupt at once, whether you got divorced.

[0:46:23] (Craige Hardel): Right. That wrecks a lot of people, especially if it's a great divorce, 40, 50, typically it's harder to recover financially, whether you've been marginalized in some way. Most successful people have a unique story, and, yes, they tell it. But my point is, so do you. Whether you've gotten to that level or you haven't as well. And you may not even want to get to that level. And I'm not downplaying anyone's desires. I'm simply saying that you have to declare as to what you want and not think small.

[0:46:58] (Craige Hardel): And part of not thinking small is not just going for the biggest, brightest shiniest, but also going outside of the bounds as to what really fulfills you. And only then it becomes more meaningful and everything else trickles down.

[0:47:15] (Ian): Sorry, can I just share a story to maybe challenge the view of success? So my wife and I were in the Greek Islands about three months ago, and we're riding around these islands on bikes. We're part of a tour, and at one point we're at the top of one of these islands, and the tour guide stops us and he points to another island and said, that island is owned by Anassas. And he's talking about Anassas as being incredibly successful, like he's well known.

[0:47:42] (Ian): But for those who don't know, the story he shared was Anassis was born into poverty. He initially made his money in the black market, in tobacco, and then he vented packaged cigarettes, made an absolute billions of dollars, and then he moved into shipping and became the biggest shipping magnate in the world. And most people know that he married JFK's widow, so Jackie O Nassas and then he finished up by saying he had a string of relationships.

[0:48:13] (Ian): And he was quoted as saying, they say money can buy love. I want to say it's not true. I'm the richest man in the world. I've never found love. And I put up my hand in the group, I said, I just want to challenge your definition of success. So here's a man who's made a lot of money, but he's invented a product that's killed millions of people and he's failed to find true love. And there's a string of tragedies around the NASA's.

[0:48:37] (Ian): And I said, I would argue that a poor worker with a strong family is far more successful than Anassis was. So I just want to put a balance in this. I know that the podcast is about business and all that sort of stuff, and it's great. Let's make money as a servant. But if the if the success is to become a NASA slike, in my view, that's not the definition of success.

[0:49:12] (Craige Hardel): Yeah, it's really important that you say this, because it really depends on what really one genuinely wants. And typically, without the exposure, without actually asking the questions, one typically is living the life of someone else. And really it really just comes down to that. So I have to ask, by the way, Ian married 42 years. We all know how high the divorce rates are as we transition to a lighter side.

[0:49:47] (Craige Hardel): We all know how high the divorce rates are, whether it's the US, europe and even Australia, as as far I know. How do you do it? What are some secrets, really, keeping things sound?

[0:50:02] (Ian): First, I hope my wife doesn't hear this because I say to my wife, I love you. And she says, I know. So my wife tolerates me. I love my wife. I love being married. She's she's been the backbone while I've gone off and and done all these ventures, but she struggles with it sometimes. So I'm being honest and vulnerable. My wife sees me. We talk about sacrifices before. I've missed family functions because I've had work things to do. I've missed kids birthday parties.

[0:50:46] (Ian): I'm committed to marriage. I'm committed to making it work. We went and saw a marriage counselor at one point, which helped you get your car service. Why not go and get your marriage service? So I'm happily married. My goal is to stay married for life. I've seen through mentoring men and through other relationships some of the challenges that result when marriages break up for kids. And I'm not an expert on this, and I understand that sometimes marriages have to break up but often there's then an ongoing story, the impact that the marriage breakup has on children.

[0:51:24] (Ian): Look, I haven't got the answers to all this. The vast majority of the kids that I mentored in Sydney schools came from a broken family and they came from where there was no positive male role model. The father's men play such a crucial role in the upbringing of kids and it's totally undervalued, I think, across the community the importance of having a male role model for children. And I'm far, far from perfect.

[0:51:58] (Ian): I'm not sure if I answered your question. I love being married. I'm a huge supporter of marriage, but my wife would say that it's been difficult being married to me, and I guess the level of work that I put in and in many cases, the self centeredness. But 40 years down the track, we're still married. And I love spending I prefer to spend time with my wife more than anyone else.

[0:52:24] (Craige Hardel): Yeah. What strikes me is that nothing good comes without sacrifice. And part of that sacrifice is actually things not being perfect. Very few people can say they have the perfect marriage. So I would say in your case, you may not be as bad as you think in that the fact that you're still married for so long. Right. Many people, they wait until the kids grow up and they just severations in that they were just tolerating kids growing up maybe until they went to college out of the house.

[0:53:02] (Craige Hardel): So the mere fact you guys are still together and growing actually speaks volume, even if either of you may not think that it's perfect. And I believe it's important to understand that as well because you may have your issues, relationship, marriage, but are you better apart or are you better together? And that's something that needs to be strongly considered and perfection really doesn't exist. Both people have to make it work. So I'm really glad you actually said this afternoon because a lot of people would really postulate or quantification how perfect their marriage is. And yes, there are marriages better than others, but generally people do not authentically say generally what's wrong. When things are really wrong, it doesn't mean you have to put your business out there. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm simply saying that if it's bad, we tend to hide a lot of that.

[0:54:00] (Craige Hardel): So I'm really glad you said that. So as we round out Ian, give our audience some free lessons that if they were to walk away from this episode in terms of how to really as they run their journey and as they transition in their careers and they really try to figure out those next steps, make those current, make those correct decisions, we're in a recession now. What are some of the tips that you have for people going through such things?

[0:54:36] (Ian): I think maybe think about what their purpose is. And I tell people I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up until I was 59 and a half. And that's a separate story, but it goes back to the 10 September 2013 when I read that's, when I got clarity, I guess, around my purpose. So think about what the purpose in life is, and maybe there's multiple. This podcast is focused on business, but there could be other purposes around giving back around life.

[0:55:10] (Ian): I think the second thing, and we talked a lot about it, is around the fear, around risk. And maybe think about whether you are too fearful or whether to what we call gung ho, but processes around where you take a calculated risk. Most people err on being risk adverse, but we're certainly not saying be foolhardy with it. But think about that. I shared a couple of examples where I've taken calculated risks, and it's been incredibly successful.

[0:55:48] (Ian): And I guess the third key point is just do your best. Just keep trying different things. There's no substitute for hard work. I'm not saying work yourself to the bone, but think about things. Maybe seek advice from people whose opinion you respect, who can actually are qualified to give advice in certain areas. Be careful taking advice from people who aren't qualified. I've had people who've had absolutely zero experience in a particular area express an opinion, and they shouldn't do that.

[0:56:35] (Ian): We should be also cautious about giving opinions when we don't know what we're talking about as well. I think there's the three things there. So the purpose, risk versus fear, and just doing the work. Just do it.

[0:56:51] (Craige Hardel): All right. Awesome. Now, with that said, we've come to the end of this episode. Ian, I like to thank you so much for making the appearance there and for sharing your wisdom with our audience so many times. People do not have the perspective. Yes, they have the youthfulness. Yes, they have the energy, they have the willpower. That's good. But the perspective really helps one navigate potential pitfalls. So I'm really glad that you came on and you offered your perspective. Tell us how we could reach you or anything else you have going.

[0:57:27] (Ian): Okay, so the project that is my passion project at the moment is Kinsugiheroes, and my email address is ian at kinsugiheroes. That's kintsugiheroes.com. Au I would love to hear from people if they want to just chat about where they're at, if this conversation has triggered some thoughts or they want to discuss, if there's people who've been through adversity and they've got an overcoming adversity story, then please reach out to us as well.

[0:58:09] (Ian): Our website is kentuckyheroes.com. Au okay, awesome.

[0:58:17] (Craige Hardel): Well, thank you so much once more for making an appearance and to talk to you another time.

[0:58:24] (Ian): Thank you very much for the opportunity. Thanks, Craige. Yeah.