#11 - Imposter Syndrome Breakthrough: From Self-Doubt to Success

Welcome to the Women's Career Mastery Podcast, the show that's dedicated to empowering women to redefine success and break through barriers. I'm your host, Christine, and my co host, Laura. Along with our amazing guests and experts, we are here to shatter the myths that has been hindering women's career fulfillment.

for far too long.  So if you're ready to master your career and take your life to the next level, join us in our journey together. The Women's Career Mastery Podcast starts Now, in today's episode, we are diving headfirst into a topic that sneaks into the minds of even the most accomplished individuals.

I'm talking about that sneaky, confidence crushing, dream shattering specter known as Imposter Syndrome. We'll explore some pressing questions. How can we overcome imposter syndrome? Can it ever be completely eliminated from our lives? Our remarkable guest today won't just share her insights from her experiences in battling imposter syndrome.

Not just once, but many times, she will also provide valuable insights into how organizations and leaders can lend support to help their employees overcome this persistent feeling of inadequacy.  Whether you ever found yourself doubting your abilities, questioning your achievements, or you are a leader eager to support your team members as they navigate the complex waters of imposter syndrome, this episode is tailored just for you.

Prepare to discover the strategies that will empower you to silence that inner critic and embrace your authentic best self. Without further ado, I'll pass this over to my co-host, Laura, to introduce our special guest today. Thanks, Christine. Our special guest today is Yemisi Sawyerr. She's a Senior Lead, Learning Facilitation | Global Trainer, Kyndryl.

She has over 15 years of experience in designing and delivering learning solutions that equip employees at all levels with essential skills across various domains. I know that's a lot, but it is a lot. It's a lot that she does in that space. And it's really nice to be with a fellow learning and development person.

She has a master of science in international business, a bachelor of law and multiple certifications that demonstrate her knowledge and credibility in the field of learning and development. She is truly passionate about people learning and learning technologies. Such a great mix of things you may see it's really a pleasure for me to be here with you today Tell us why you agreed to join us on our podcast today.

Thank you very much, Laura and Christine I was really excited for this opportunity because This is a topic that is, I have to say, very close to my heart. It is an issue that I know is very prevalent amongst a lot of people, different demographics of people or different groups of people. And it's actually something that, interestingly, Christine and I have worked on together before.

We had a coaching relationship where this was one of the things that we discussed and one of the things that we worked through. giving me the tools to work through this particular topic of imposter syndrome. So when she reached out to me, I was very excited to talk a little bit about my journey and some of the things that I have done in this space to equip myself with the tools, the skills, the resources to be able to overcome it.

And it's an ongoing journey. It's not one of those things that is a... tick box, you do something and it's finished. It's one of those things that you have to work at consistently. So I'm very happy to discuss this from the perspective of very much being a work in progress and excited to share things that I have done that I think will help other people.

Well, we're super excited to have you here talking on this important topic and hopefully busting it open for conversation and busting some myths about it. I know women primarily struggle with it, but it's also  everybody. Everybody has experienced this. And maybe we could start by you sharing your situation, like how you noticed or became aware of it and how you coped with it and how far you've come with it.

Okay, great. I think a lot of it is centering around my professional work and being able to grow throughout my professional life. And I think one of the first spaces where I discovered the concept of imposter syndrome and that it might be something that I was personally struggling with was an inability to really kind of advocate.

For myself,  an inability to say no to projects where I was feeling very overwhelmed, for example, when things were suggested to me to get into certain roles and certain activities, being very hesitant to take on those responsibilities because I didn't feel qualified enough. I didn't feel like I had enough experience, etc.

Earlier on in my career, one of the reasons again that I'm happy to do this is I wish I had someone to tell me these kinds of things earlier on in my career, and someone to coach me through them and work through some of those anxieties that I had so early in my professional career. I started off working in a bank and I felt very at sea all the time.

I didn't understand  for, at least for the first year, what I was supposed to be doing. And it was that sense of feeling again, very overwhelmed, feeling like I wasn't really qualified to be here. Kind of like I was pretending and someone would eventually find out I didn't know what I was doing and, and all of those sorts of things.

So it's really been that whole journey of. Masking at least for the first few professional years of my career of masking and trying to work my way through without letting everybody know that I was really struggling internally. And when I look back at again, some of the challenges that I had in being able to.

Express myself, assert myself, take up space. Now, of course, as a learning and development professional, I've done a little bit of research. I've gotten a lot of insights in this area, and I know that it's something that's really based around socialization, especially for women and how we are socialized as girls to not speak up and to not be too loud.

When that kind of behavior is exhibited as a boy, it's boldness, it's being assertive. But as a girl, it's seen as being too much or too loud or too out there. There's that sense of socialization from when we're very young that sends those messages that you shouldn't be too out there. It's seen as very negative as a girl or as a woman to exhibit those kinds of characteristics.

And again, growing up in my culture, I think that's also something that. was very strong. Although I knew this is something that cuts across all cultures as well. I grew up into a professional environment and it was a struggle. It was a real struggle. As I started to develop across years, I think one of the things that helped me was getting mentoring and getting mentorship and Being able to have someone shine a light on by achievements and so taking myself away from the situation and having someone say, look, but you've done all these things and these are all things that you can be proud of.

So these are not things that you should doubt or you shouldn't have any fear that you don't have the skills or the strengths or the ability to go into and do other things. So from where it comes from, it's the socialization and then going into. An environment where I didn't have a lot of mentors and a lot of support, I think that really exacerbated it, at least in the early years of my professional career.

I hope that answered the question. Yes, absolutely, it did. And what a huge learning experience that you went through that and breaking through. Breaking through the socialization expectations and the cultural expectations of women. I often hear that on some of our podcasts that we, as women are breaking through that.

And that's, but I want to recognize how challenging that is in the accomplishment there. I don't hear any of the doubt in you today. I really don't. Oh, it's there. Trust me. It's there. It's very much there. But it's one of those things, like I said, it's an ongoing journey. It's not something that you can take a course and just be done with.

It is an ongoing journey and it's one of those things where you have to wake up to yourself every day and have conversations with yourself about your skills and your strengths and your abilities and really have ways to constantly remind yourself. One of the things that I get very excited doing, and we have a session that we deliver for women who are in leadership, but are being groomed into executive roles.

One of the things that we discuss is being able to self market and being able to put yourself out there, which again is something that many women are very uncomfortable doing. So it's one of those things that you have to be very conscious of. And these are again, People who have attained leadership, they've been leaders for many years, but it's just like,  I have to update my LinkedIn.

I have to talk about the achievements that I've done, and it feels like bragging to me. And one of the things that we discussed is when you think about the word bragging, what does it have such a negative connotation? Though, if everything you're saying is true, and if everything you're saying is stuff that you've actually achieved.

Is that a bad thing? When you think about bragging, it's usually about inflating or hyping up things that maybe you haven't really done. But when you're talking about your actual achievements, that shouldn't be something that is uncomfortable, but it is for a lot of people. So I look at it as a muscle.

It's something that you have to exercise consistently to be able to get in the groove of being able to do. And there will be times when you will fall off. from exercising. You'll stop exercising for a while and then you'll go back to the lack of fitness. But then you have to restart and keep exercising to get back to that level where you can really hold your own and speak to your own skills and strengths and knowledge and expertise and be able to take up space wherever it is that you find yourself.

But it's an ongoing journey for sure. I really like your metaphor about muscle training, like exercising. I want to share a background story with listeners. So you've been saying I had coaching relationships about three years ago  and I thought about her and how much her. career growth. She was a leader in Nigeria and now she's doing it in London and doing it more globally.

And I thought, wow, this is going to be a great topic for our podcast. So I contacted Imisi. I emailed her and said like, Hey, we'd love to have you to be in our podcast. You've gone through everything and you push it forward. You overcome your imposter syndrome. I just want to share what you wrote back to me.

As she said yes to our podcast  and she said I haven't conquered imposter syndrome at all with like smiley icons. But I do push through it every day to do things that are outside of my comfort zone and getting better at taking risks, even though the fear I feel in doing it. So I thought that is amazing, a powerful reminder that unlike other self development, we always believe that it's like Hollywood story, happy ending, you struggle.

And then at the end we have the victory, but imposter syndrome, most of the time is not like that. And it's always coming. Like what Nemesis said, it's always coming back. I think the reason is because we growing. If we're taking that challenge, the next one is always going to be scary. And of course, the imposter syndrome is going to come again.

Again, I want to return it to your metaphor of exercising, of muscle training. Even if you haven't conquered imposter syndrome at all, when is the tipping point that enables you to overcome it every time it shows up? Okay. And I'm glad you asked this question, Christine, because I would say actually the tipping point was something that you in fact asked me to do.

And I know that we're going to cover it at some point in the conversation today, but one of the things that came up in the course of our coaching conversations was have a way to examine your achievements. And do it in such a way that you can have a reminder on the days when you're not flexing those muscles and you haven't been flexing those muscles as much.

And there has been again a reduction in your fitness from the imposter syndrome perspective. Have something that enables you to go back and examine. Your achievements and who you are and the things that you've actually done very objectively. So this is not value judgements. This is not, oh, how I feel.

This is actually stuff that I've done. One of the things that you asked me to do, Christine, was to create a brag book. And of course that terrified me, . It terrified me completely. But you said instead of starting with a book, a book might seem like a big thing. So start with a post. Put a post on LinkedIn and talk about the things that you've done, the things that you're proud of, and the things that you want people to know about you.

Again, instant anxiety about doing that. So I thought, okay, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to create the post. I'm going to put it up.  I'm going to talk about all the things that I've done this year or the last few years that I'm really proud of and who I feel like I am. And then I'm going to put it on LinkedIn.

And then I'm going to just shut it down for a couple of days and not look at it because I didn't know what the response was going to be. That's exactly what I did. I created this post. I talked about who I am. I talked about the things that I had achieved, all the things that I was really proud of that I'd done.

And that was a really pivotal moment for me because I was going through a lot of struggle at the time with a difficult manager and all of these different things that were happening. And it really knocked my confidence quite a lot. So I put this post up on LinkedIn. I shut it down and I didn't look at LinkedIn for about three or four days.

And then I came back and I looked at it and the response was.  incredible. One of the things that spoke to for me was the fact that this is something that resonates with so many people. This is something that so many people struggle with. Lots of people saying this is a really good idea. I think I'm going to do it as well.

And this is also something that I really struggle with. And then I had people who Had been on the receiving end of my learning and development efforts throughout the years. People saying things like, Oh, you onboarded me five years ago. And I still remember that experience. People saying, I've attended some of your sessions and some of your classes, and this was the impact that it had on me.

So again, that was very reinforcing. I think for me, from the perspective of, okay, this is something that I do in fact struggle with, but it's something that I can. continuously reflect on from that perspective. And another great thing is that that post has gone really far. By the way, someone reached out to me to say they're running these Google sessions for women called I Am Remarkable.

And she said, I think this would be a great Great post to share, because we're talking about bragging in a positive kind of way. Is this something that I can share with the group? And I was like, yeah, sure. You know what I mean? I think that for me was the tipping point. And every time I get into the funk of thinking, Oh, you know, I don't feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

I don't feel like I'm at the level I should be. I don't feel like I'm doing so great. I go back to it. I recognize that. Okay. You know what? Objectively, I am experienced, I am knowledgeable, I am good at what I do, and it's just about, again, having those consistent reminders and keeping them up to date as well.

So I would say that was the tipping point for me. That was an amazing story, and I saw that post because you tagged me there, and... I was so over the moon. It's as if it is me too. For information to the listeners, there are, I think about 250 likes and shares, so many comments, so inspiring. I'd like to bring this out because when you brag in a very authentic way, when you are really see yourself, See your best.

It does inspire others and your posts inspire others. And if you don't mind reading what you wrote three years ago. Sure, I have no problem doing that at all. The LinkedIn post goes like this. My name is Yemisi Sawyerr. I am a badass international trainer who has delivered training to thousands of professionals worldwide for over a decade, equipping them with the skills that they need to succeed in their careers and their personal lives.

Asia Pacific, Middle East and Africa, North and Latin America, Europe. I've delivered to learners in all of these geos with overall consistently high NPS and feedback. I won three learning awards this year for learning delivery and design, innovation and learning support.  I've done new hire orientation, people skills, sales and leadership enablement.

Working a training room is my passion. Interfacing with learners face to face, getting them to share, interact, and watching them get something that will change how they live or how they work is my jam, but I'm hugely also competent at delivering training virtually. Webex, Zoom, BlueJeans, Blackboard Collaborate, Centra, Teams, bring it on.

I am also strong, exuberant, and empath. personable, resilient, competent, and have a growth mindset. And then I put a hashtag humble brag.  That was it. And I posted it. I was terrified and I escaped from LinkedIn for a few days. And then I came back to this overwhelming response, just kind of looking in the background, there were 8, 000 impressions of this post.

So 8, 000 people or thereabouts have seen it. So I thought that was amazing. That was my tipping point. I think something that just consistently reminded me that I can actually just go back and objectively look at the things that I've done in terms of my skills, my accomplishments. So on the days when I'm feeling a bit flat, that's a chance for me to give myself that reminder.

And you not only made an impact with that post, it proves you're making an impact in all the work that you're doing. I know sometimes as learning and development people, or anybody in their profession, you don't feel like you're making an impact, but you really are. Absolutely. It's much more challenging when you're in a job where the outcomes are more qualitative rather than quantitative.

If you're in a sales role, for example, it's okay, how much did you sell last year versus how much did you sell this year? With learning and development, it's much less obvious in that way. But for me, the enrichment is. manager coming back to me to say I was struggling with this particular employee and after the conversation that we had I was able to have a good feedback conversation with them that will enable us take this further or for female leader to say I've been in this Leadership role for a long time.

I've been thinking about moving into an executive role, but I wasn't quite sure of the steps to take. And now I've kind of given myself the energy and the oomph to be able to ask for that next level or for someone to say you onboarded me. And I remember 10 years ago, I was able to hit the ground running because of something that you did.

So for me, those kinds of insights are the things that energize me. And that's the reason I've been doing L and D for what? 15 odd years. It's something that. is very close to my heart and something that I'm extremely passionate about. So, and if I do say so myself, I think I'm pretty darn good at it. You are.

And that's awesome. I want to bring something up here. This kind of enforcer syndrome is not just a personal challenges. Like I think in each of us, we do have that. especially when we are coming to territory that we don't really know yet or a new challenge that comes. It takes a village. What I mean is all the reminder from others, the way they say back to you, the way they express their gratitude, what they remember what you did, this really means something to you.

I think what we can do as well as someone probably who experienced imposter syndrome, I think we can also help others by sharing or expressing what we grateful about what others doing in their job, in their work, whatever they do, because it means something to them. And as it means something to us too, to listen to that, to know how we contribute to other people's life and how work become more a purpose.

thing rather than just a simply nine to five job. Absolutely. 100%. And I'm very much in alignment with that. This is, like I said, a process. It's a journey. And as many people as you can help along that journey, the better it is for sure. It's really a great opportunity for you to highlight how other people have made an impact on you when you get that kind of validating.

Insights into your own skills and experiences and expertise, et cetera. It's really great way to reinforce that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing and increase your drive to get better at doing that. And it's also a great way to again people in your circle to Reinforce that in them as well.

I think it's definitely something that we should all look into doing and I find that The more that you do this With other people, the more that it gives you the opportunity for that kind of reciprocity as well. Also. So yeah, definitely. I want to just, cause we're kind of going there. Given your position, given your experience and what you've dealt with, with imposter syndrome, what needs to change or what needs to happen in the workplace for people to not be struggling as much as they are with this syndrome?

What kind of things can people do to make it better at work? That's a really good question. And I think for me, the thing that pops into my mind immediately is consistent feedback, consistent feedback, and being able to let people know at each stage of the work that they do and the activities that they're performing, what worked well, what could be even better.

From a facilitator perspective, it's the WWW, what went well, and the EBI, or even better if. So being able to provide people with feedback and insights at each stage, and if I track back to what I said about when I started my career and earlier on, not having that kind of view as to, am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing?

Am I getting better? Am I achieving my target? What exactly? Because this is me, new to the job market, straight out of school, and just really not knowing. what was going on and it really set the stage for a lot of anxiety and a dent, I would say, in my confidence at that stage. So I think workplaces, one of the things that they can do much better is really provide the opportunity for consistent feedback.

If again, in terms of people's performance, if you spot that something is not going the way that you feel like it should as a leader, as a manager, or as a peer or whatever the case may be. Be able to provide that clear, constructive feedback, and then provide people with the chance to think about what they could be doing differently and reinforce what they are in fact doing very well.

That's one thing. The second thing is I would say there is this concept that comes from a Hungarian psychologist who I'm really going to try not to butcher his name. His name is Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi  and he talks about the concept of flow. The concept of flow really centers around that thought of people having a balance of both challenge and stretch, but support and the safety net on the back of that.

So people do their best work when they're challenged and they're pushed and they're stretched outside of their comfort zone so that they can learn something, but not where they don't have that psychological safety or that safety net that if they make mistakes. They won't have that support on the back end of it.

So if someone as a leader, for example, you tell someone who's reporting to you, I want you to go ahead and do this. And this instant anxiety and panic. Oh, but I haven't done this before, et cetera, et cetera. Give them the room to know that I'm putting my confidence in you in being able to do this. Because I think that you can do it and it's okay if things maybe fall apart a little bit, I'm the back end.

I'm your safety net. I'm here to kind of catch you and then if it doesn't work, we will revisit it. We'll see what went wrong and we'll try and fix it. We'll fail fast and then fail forward as it were. So creating those kinds of safety nets feedback on the one side, the psychological safety on the other side where people feel empowered to be able to stretch and grow and move into areas That are uncomfortable for them, but they have the chance to learn something and grow and stretch.

But again, know that they have that safety net at the back of it. I think it's a really great way to combat imposter syndrome, because you start from, Oh, I don't think I can do this to Okay, I'll dip my toe in the pool and then, okay, so if I dip the toe and then I dip the foot and I know that whatever happens, whoever is supporting me is not going to let me drown, basically, I think that would be, it's a really good way to go about it, doing that, and one of the things that I've been very lucky with being in my current organization is having a leader when I joined who actively did this for me and with me and said, I know that you are uncomfortable with this and I know that you're an anxious person and that's okay.

Okay. But I know that you can do this and I'm here in case anything happens, just keep me in the loop and I'm here to support you. And I think that helped me a lot to be able to be more open and to take more bold steps in that direction. So that's something definitely a lot of organizations should be thinking about actively doing if it's not something that they're currently actively doing.

I really liked the asking the two questions for feedback. What's going well, what could I do even better? And I coach a lot of people that are looking for this feedback, but they're not getting it. So is it OK for them to ask in those two questions, a manager or a leader? To start the conversation at least so that if you are suffering from imposter syndrome, that's an easy way to get in and get some feedback.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the things that I recommend that people do ask for the feedback if you don't feel like you're getting it. Another thing that I've discovered is that the higher people tend to go in their careers. The less feedback that they generally tend to get if they don't ask for it, the assumption is, well, you've gotten here, you kind of know what you're doing.

So the less sort of really constructive feedback that they get, there's that sense of having a plateau of, okay, well, I've been here and I've been in this level for 10 years or whatever. And it's really difficult for me to then make the next leap up to see an executive role, for example, because I don't feel like I'm getting the kind of feedback that I should get is, Oh, okay.

That was great. everything is fine. And if you are consistently getting everything is fine, you then get into that sense of, okay,  maybe a little bit about a little bit of, okay, what next? What else can I be doing? What are they not saying? Basically, everything cannot be fine all the time. I think that's a good opportunity for people to be clear about exactly what it is that they want.

And you may have to ask more pointed questions around exactly what it is that you're looking for. I worked on such and such a project, et cetera. This was the outcome. I was thinking a little bit about this and about this. What are your thoughts? Do you think that there is a different way that we could have gone about it, et cetera?

So yeah, for sure. If you're not getting the kind of feedback that you need, that you feel is direct enough, then probably best to ask very specifically for it and put whoever it is. on the spot, let them draw that information out of them so that it can help you also to, again, have impact on your own personal self growth and also on whatever business outcome that you're trying to get as well from that perspective.

That's amazing feedback, Yemisi. I think it's a teamwork on this.  I feel like we cannot really get over impulsive syndrome just by ourselves. What I mean is like, of course, there's responsibilities to get over our own fear, but we do need to have support. And the support that others can give is safety support, more like a gentle, loving, caring support.

Because of course we need feedback and the feedback will get us better. But also the other thing what you're saying is, there's an importance of self awareness.  Big time in this one because it's like, this is not a one time deal and then you got over it, it's all the time. So being able to be self aware of what's going on within you, it's very important.

With that said, I'd like to ask the final questions for this podcast. What advice would you give to someone who is currently struggling with imposter syndrome and looks for ways to navigate and overcome it? Okay, so I would say one of the first things to do is to, again, objectively look at the things that you're good at.

So if your imposter syndrome is around your professional career, as an example, be objective. Just make a list. What are the things that I've done? And try not to make this a value judgment. Well, I think I'm good at this, or I don't think I'm good at this. What are the things that you've actually done? Be as objective as possible, make a list and that will enable you to start seeing in real terms.

What that looks like. Have a look at your CV. And this is a piece of advice. Someone gave me a while ago. Have a look at your CV. Look at the things that you've done throughout your career and just look at the growth. So you might feel there isn't that much growth. But if you look at how you've progressed throughout your career and how you've gotten one promotion to the next promotion to the next role and expanded responsibilities, et cetera, that gives you a sense of okay, Okay.

Okay, maybe things are not as bad as I think that they are from that perspective. So that is a starting point. Be brutally objective about the things that you've done or the things that you've accomplished.  The next thing I would say is find someone who can help you to put the things that you are concerned about into perspective.

In my case, it was a coach or a mentor, or if you have a chance to speak to a manager, if you have a really good, very sympathetic manager, as an example, that's an opportunity for you to sort of highlight, okay, these are the areas where I'm struggling, and then have them as kind of a mirror to reflect back the stuff that you're actually doing and the skills that you've actually built and so on and so forth.

I would say it's those two parts. The first is being brutally objective because again I think imposter syndrome relies on a lot of subjectivity. I don't feel like I'm good at this. I don't feel like I'm measuring up. I don't feel like, but all those are value judgments. Look at the feelings on one side, but then look at the objective facts on the other side.

And if you're able to again, have someone who can help to be a mirror to those objective facts,  then that enables you to have the strength to say, okay. I feel like I'm not very good at this, but if I look objectively at the feedback that I've gotten, if I look objectively at the awards that I've gotten, if I look objectively at the promotions that I've had over the years, et cetera, then maybe I need to rethink the feeling part of this whole situation.

I would say that that would probably be the best approach. First, of course, is being.  Self aware. This is what I'm feeling, but what are the objective facts? And then the second part of it is speak to someone who can help you to work out some of the washing machine thoughts in your mind and the washing machine feelings in your mind.

I always liken those feelings to a washing machine kind of spiraling. And then that's a chance for you to then Again, come out of it with an objective view and say, okay, this is something that I'm struggling with on a feelings side, but the facts outweigh the feelings. And it really does give you a very strong pick me up when you can look at it for yourself.

And then you can have that validated again, objectively by either a coach, a manager, a mentor. whatever the case may be. And then that picks you up. But then it's, like I said, an ongoing journey. So you'll have times when you're up after having done this exercise and then something else happens in the course of your professional life or whatever it is, and then it dips.

And then you have to again, get to that reminder of yourself and keep consistently going. And the third thing I would say is just improve yourself, whether it's courses, activities, learning. Sitting with your fear when you have to go into a new situation, being given a new responsibility and thinking, Ah, no, I can't tackle that.

I'm going to say no. Rather than that, sit with the fear and say, Okay, why am I afraid that I can't do this? What are the reasons that I feel like I can't do this? And yeah, do it anyway  and then ensure that you have people to lean on if anything does go wrong or anything does fall apart, you have that support system that you can fall back on and say, okay, I failed, but I'm not feeling and sitting in it, but I'm feeling and moving forward regardless.

That would be my three pieces of advice on how to move forward from imposter syndrome. It's tough. It's not easy. And I'm not trying to make it sound easy. Like I said, it's an ongoing journey. And for me, something that I have to consistently remind myself. To do for sure, but it has big payoffs if you can consistently do it.

That's awesome. It's amazing advice. And I do like the common on sitting with our own fear is to look it on its eyes and ask what's behind it. And I think, like you said, that's required muscles. Yeah, absolutely. I love how you make it seem it's doable. It's practical. Like these are practical ways that you can  manage with imposter syndrome.

I really like that. Absolutely. I always like to think of it as a lot of the things that you say to yourself. When you have imposter syndrome, when you struggle with imposter syndrome are things that you would never tolerate someone else saying to you.  So I'm terrible at this. I don't know what I'm doing.

Oh, I'm a fraud, etc. If someone external said that stuff to you, you'd be up in arms. The way that I like to think about it is personalize it. When you hear those thoughts coming. Think of it as an external person and attack it like you would attack, obviously not physically attacked, but attack the thoughts like you would push back on someone external saying those things to you.

I gave my imposter syndrome voice a name. I call her Agatha.  And I think of her as an external person. And if I had someone shouting these things in my face, how would I respond? And that's how I tried to deal with it, deal with it as an external person telling you all of these negatives. Things about yourself that are lies, really, and then confronting it the same way you would confront someone who was doing that to you.

More great advice.  Thank you.  Shall we move to the lightning round questions?  Although I think we could talk about this more and I hope you come back and talk with us at another time. Really? I'd be very happy to, for sure. Okay. We have four lightning round questions. There are questions that we hope you can articulate in one to three words, but just for us to get to know you a little bit more, where do you go for inspiration?

Hmm. That's a very, very interesting question. Where do I go for inspiration? I would say nature. Just being able to be outside and walking and breathing air and touching grass, as they say. I think I spent a lot of time not doing that. So I do take the active time to be more mindful. I find that it helps me to be more mindful, to be out in nature and have a clear mind and a way to kind of think through things.

So yeah, that would be my answer to that question. Great. Second question. What is one habit you adopted that has greatly improved your career? I would say finding mentors. I think one of the things that I struggled with very early on was trying to do everything by myself  and then quickly realizing that that was probably not the best way to go.

And mentors are fantastic for a lot of things aside from advice, but also visibility, being able to mention your name in rooms where you don't have access and that sort of thing. So yeah, finding mentors, I think for sure. Okay, great. And what is one thing that keeps you moving forward each day and on track to meet your goals?

One thing that keeps me moving forward each day. I'll be honest, just people and how passionate I am about people and helping them to succeed and helping them to do things and they could be small things, but small things that have a big impact for me. I think that's really it. I'm passionate about people.

I think that would be the answer to that question. Okay, beautiful. And our last question is what is the most valuable piece of advice you've ever received? Hmm. That's a really good question. I probably have to think about that one for a few seconds.  Take up space. Don't be afraid to take up space and I will say that it is a piece of advice that I haven't always taken, but it's one that I am learning to take and one that I try to encourage other women, especially young women who are just kind of starting out in their careers to do.

Be visible and be visible quickly and early in your career because it becomes tougher to do it. Um, the more deep that you get into your career. So yeah, take up space. Let your voice be heard. Great. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Emisi. It's a great honor to have you here and to hear your story, to hear your advice and recommendations.

And it's amazing. How can you get over imposter syndrome and be authentic? And the more you get over it, the more authentic you can be and we can feel it here as you speak. I was just going to say, I really appreciate this opportunity because like I said, this is a topic that is very close to my heart.

I've read all the surveys and all the things that say, so for example, there's a Harvard piece of research that says a woman will typically not apply for a job if she doesn't feel she has. 80 or 90 percent of the requirements, whereas man will have maybe 40 or 50 and we'll go ahead and do that as an example, or women are not as adept at self promoting because of getting that constraint that socialization constraint that they have, where it says, you know, if you talk about the things that you've done this new and the skills that you have, it's seen as a bad thing to do.

But again, these are the things that helped move us forward and things that help us to be visible. We need to exercise those muscles for sure. And it's something that I'm happy to talk about all day, so I appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. I really do. Thank you. Thank you. And with that said, see you again next time, listeners, and  come back for our next episode.

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