#18 - Tackling Workplace Burnout Head-On!

Welcome to the Women's Career Mastery Podcast, the show that's dedicated to empowering women to redefine success and break through barriers. I'm your host, Christine, and my cohost, Laura, along with our amazing guests and experts. We are here to shatter the myths that has been hindering Women's career fulfillment for far too long.

So, if you're ready to master your career and take your life to the next level, join us in our journey together. The Women's Career Mastery podcast starts now.

Welcome to today's episode, where we dive into a topic that touches the very core of our modern existence, burnout. Burnout isn't just about feeling tired or overworked. It's a symptom of something much deeper. Something we often try to push aside in our quest for productivity and success. Unfortunately, many talented capable women have left the workforce because of burnout and often never return. Today we are diving into the hidden depth behind burnout. The aspects we rarely discussed but need to confront.

Our special guest today, once a corporate burnout, now helping women in the workplace to prevent burnout will be sharing her journey. Tune in to her candid stories and valuable lessons. Plus, we'll explore important questions such as, what unspoken expectations exist in the workplace that may contribute to the burnout culture and how can we address them? How can HR professionals and leaders be equipped, to recognize, discuss, and prevent burnout within their teams. Join us for insightful discussion that goes beyond the surface, exploring the challenges and solutions surrounding burnout in today's workplace oh right now, I pass it over to Laura.

Thank you, Christine.

We are so excited to have this episode with our special guest today, Amanda McWhorter. Amanda, so nice to have you here with us.

Thank you. I am super excited to be here.

Awesome. So let me just tell you a little bit about Amanda. Amanda is a self-claimed corporate dropout, recovering people pleaser, perfectionist, turned burnout recovery coach.

Say that one more like that's a lot there. We're going to learn more about her today. She has a magnificent story. After 18 years in her career, she's experienced burnout. And actually, ended up quitting her six figure position. She found her way and created the Corporate Detox coaching programs.

This transition led her to the important work that she does. And it's become her mission to work with women who find themselves buried in the rubble of burnout and help them dig their way out. As an HR professional, Amanda believes that this is so important, the burnout and recovery prevention should be one of the main initiatives in every business and organization.

And she also hosts a podcast, the Corporate Detox podcast, which is where we all connected as Christine was recently a guest on Amanda's podcast. So, we're all talking the same language. We're all here to support women. So, let's dive in. So, without further ado, Amanda, just want to say we're grateful. To have you here with us today.

We know you're busy, but we also know you're very passionate about all that you do.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I would not have missed this opportunity for the world. So I've loved connecting with the two of you and I'm so so happy to bring more hope and inspiration to women that may be suffering from burnout So you want to share with us a little bit why you were compelled to want to be on the show with us today?

Oh, absolutely. So, first of all, you are my people, because we are definitely speaking the same thing to folks every single day, and you know, looking back on my journey, at the time, in my 18 years of corporate, I did not realize that I was burnt out.

I didn't realize that the hustle and grind culture that I was living every day was actually wearing on my body, wearing on my relationships. And I had lost myself in that journey. And I know that so many people can resonate with that. And that's really why I'm here is to help folks to see that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

And just because you are maybe experiencing burnout now, there are lots of tools out there that can help you. And I did not have those tools at the time. And I truly wish that I did. And that is why I'm so passionate about this work today. So where should we dive in?

We could start with not having support when it comes to burnout. So, for me, I was an HR professional for 5 years. And in that time, we never talked about burnout. I come from a retail background, retail management. And I can tell you, there are so many people that were suffering and still are suffering from burnout just because of the fast pace of the industry.

And they aren't supported by their companies. And quite honestly, as HR professionals, we weren't trained on how to talk people through this.

I agree, Amanda, like, HR teams are not prepared to discuss or handle or even recognize, right? So maybe we could start there or like, what, what are some things not to just be able to recognize but prevent.

Burnout from happening in the workplace to begin with, like, what, what do we have to be aware of? As HR professionals or just managers in general.

So, first of all, let's start with the always on culture. that a lot of companies have, right? Especially for salaried individuals, right? So, if you're a salaried person, you're not necessarily punching that clock in and out every day, and that starts to bleed into other areas of your life.

But then comes the expectation of, like, being on all the time. So, I often tell people, I slept with my phone at night because I was so worried about missing an email, missing a text. There being a power outage at a store and, and me not knowing, right? And, it took a long time to realize, like, how that was affecting me.

I would wake up at 2 o'clock every morning, not because there was an alarm, but because my body was just so used to that, and I was checking my email. Like, who's sending me an email in the middle of the night, right? But looking back on it, that was really how most people that were climbing the ladder within that company were.

So, I thought, like, that's what success means, is always being on. And as HR professionals, we really have to help people understand that there are boundaries and there are limits and that we respect that.

Even more important today, right? Yes. In this whole hybrid workspace. Absolutely. Absolutely. To know where the boundaries are, because especially if you're working at home in more days than in the office or whatever the amount is, right?

The work can bleed into your home life, into your 24 seven. Yes, I think that's a great place for if you're listening to this and then you're an HR professional, you're a leader, I think that's a great place to start. Is just looking at the expectation or the things that folks might think are expectations, even though they've never been said by your company, right?

Like, what are people actually doing?

The unsaid expectations. Yes. You know, this kind of topics really make me upset in a way. But the reason why is because I think we, we can talk about, oh, I'm an HR professional, for example, this is, this is the team that I'm helping or I'm, I'm leading, but like, we all actually the same, I think there is this kind of symptoms where we, we kind of separated others and ourselves as a leader, like we separate them as somebody we need to manage and us as the leader, where actually.

I feel like we need to look into ourselves as well, because I think, as HR too, most people are still in this kind of belief that we have to be on all the time. And because we on all the time, we expect other to be on all the time, not knowing what is that affecting us by being on all the time.

So, Amanda, you've been there and then you’re out and you're helping people organizations and individuals with the burnout. What do you think the role of self-awareness, in helping overcome this symptoms? Because this is very important. What I found is when.

Most people, like, these very, talented, with high potential women in the workplace who has so much to give. And when they get burned out, really burned out, what happens is they left. And they left, and they don't want to go back again. And I think, this is a sad thing for organization because those are, the most potential women that you can have, but you can kind of burn it and just run it until they don't have enough energy to really give.

And by, by really speaking up about this burnout issues, at least in, in bringing the awareness in the HR field. And, and bringing this up more. That we can help these women or these people to overcome the burnout before it really burned them down.

So, looking back on my time in HR, not only were there signs in my own life, but there were signs in the people that I was helping to promote or manage performance plans, whatever that looked like, right? Like people I was coming into contact with every day. And I knew that our HR Like, our folks in HR were saying one thing about work life balance, and the leaders out in the field were saying something totally different.

Totally different, right? So, in retail, if your store was bad, if it was not meeting expectations, the district managers, the, the leaders were expecting you to be there more. We didn't, we didn't look at, have they been working too much? Right? And when folks would bring that up, like, maybe actually they don't need to be working six and seven days a week, maybe that would help.

There was this very toxic pushback on that from leadership on if they can't run a store at six days a week, how are they going to run a store five days a week? And you can translate that into any industry, right? Like, you can even translate that into working from home. But that, to me, was like, looking back now, that was the big red flag that we didn't address was how not aligned the HR professionals were with the rest of leadership.

 I love the way you articulated that; it's based on a belief system that we have. Exactly.

About work. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't want to say it's a very masculine thought process too, but at the time it was. It was very, very masculine on you know, number one, it was a lot of men saying that, like, they just need to work more.

They need to work harder. And now looking at it, like, the amount of people that were lost in that. Right? They're lost because they got sick and had to quit, or lost because they burn out and quit, like, very, very, very talented people that could have been helping the organization grow, but now the organizations essentially stunted its growth because it doesn't have that leadership anymore because people have burnout.

And they left and they're not coming back to Christine's point. They're not coming back. So, what do we do? Tell us. What do we need to do? Do we need corporate self-awareness? Like, does the corporation, the leadership need to know and relook and rethink its beliefs? Do the individuals have to find self-awareness?

Like, where do we go from here?

So definitely both of those, right? But I think for, for the most massive growth that we could get in this area, it has to come from the top down in an organization. It has to come from the top leadership on making sure that if there is a culture that is causing burnout, that they start taking steps.

To be putting the people first, because that is what's going to help the rest of your metrics, right? The rest of your KPI, that's going to help with your sales growth, everything. But if we're not putting the people first, you're not going to be able to do that. On an individual standpoint, the self-awareness is huge.

Looking around, you know, I went through a divorce. The divorce rate in our company was sky high. No one needed to throw that figure out there because you knew that just from your, from what your coworkers were going through, right? And we were putting everything on the back burner for our careers. And people's health too, you know, people having heart attacks and things happening that were life threatening because of the amount of stress and burnout that they were experiencing.

So you really have to be very self-aware of what's going on in your own life, and if you're the type of person, and this is where I was, I was very, very, very proud to have worked so hard to get to that level that I never wanted to admit that my career The way that I was consuming myself in work was what was burning me out and affecting other areas of my life.

And it devastated some areas of my life.

I think at the moment, the three of us are looking at each other. You can't see us because it's a recording, but we're looking at each other. We've all, we've all fallen victim to this, right? Like we've all been in some sort of this. We've had other guests on the program. In this space as well, and it's, it's challenging to navigate.

Yeah, and, and I just, I just want to honor your vulnerabilities to speak about this, and it is so true. this is a massive, I think, a massive symptom that we really need to speak about. What I like about what you're saying in the beginning is like people first. It reminds me of, you know, being in the airplane when something bad happen, you have to put your mask on first, before you put on others. So, in organization, the people first put the mask on the people who work there first, because without them, there's nobody, nothing running. I mean, there's an AI, but AI still right now need people. There's like a lot of things that make our life our work more efficient, but it still need people.

And if we don't really see that, then you know, there, there's a lot of division between work and life. And I heard something about a while ago, I don't know, forgot the name, but the ideas of In the world where the business is very masculine running this way of running is very masculine in our world right now.

But so they don't understand that women have cycles every month. Like, man doesn't have cycles every month, you know, it's all up and it's all pretty much consistent, but women has a cycle, like beginning of the year and end of the year, middle of the year is ending and starting again every single month.

So, our energy is different within a month it's up and down. And I think. We are so into seeing work or seeing a system as a machine, so it's all the same where human and organic things are not. And I felt what you're saying is it's very important to see it's not just work. We are also, we have families.

We have emotional life. We have relationship. And we need to start seeing that everything has to work together so that the work at work and performance at work can be sustainable because otherwise it's not sustainable at all. Yeah, absolutely. There's also, lots of research, lots of leaders in big corporations as well doing work to, they know this, like they know if the employee's happy, if the employee's got all their support that they need, they can take the time off for different things you know, fear of retribution or anything.

They're more productive, right? They're more effective in what they're doing. Like they have time to rest. You need time to rest, recoup, come back with new ideas, new ways of working, new ways of seeing things, better collaborations. This is proven scientifically that this is real.

So why, again, is it so hard to make this change?

So, we're recording this in the winter, right? And you know, I often think of when people talk about wintering and how does that relate to burnout and to our professional lives. And very often, right, we look at, we have to always be like, you're saying it, things are like kind of straight line instead of cyclical.

And especially as women, we're balancing so many things. Personally, I hate the term work life balance because, like, you're not ever going to have it all balanced at once. I like to say work life harmony, right? And when I think about wintering and what that is, it's essentially nature's way of resting. to be able then to produce new in the spring and really like, you know, get all that energy in the summer and be able to, to go back into that fall cycle.

But it's the same thing we should think about when it comes to burnout professionally. There are times when you have to realize that You're not going to be giving 150 percent to your career this month because you've got a major health issue going on in your life, or you've got something going on at home, right?

So, we have to be able to have that harmony between all parts of our life. And where we get into that problem is when we put that all on the back burner for the career, right? Or when we start to put the career on the back burner, then we get into performance problems. at work. Because our companies are so used to us giving 150%.

And that's another challenge I have for the leaders that are listening. If you know you have a top performer, and they're not giving you 150%, they're probably burnout, and they're probably afraid to tell you. Because what do we do? The ones that produce more, we give them more work. Because we know they're gonna get it done, right?

So, challenge yourself on who you're handing stuff off to. And if they say they can't do it, honor that. Because chances are, they're hitting burnout, or maybe they're already there.

That's really, really good insight just to know, how to spot it and how to address it. And, you know, all the time you're talking, I'm like, yeah, that's going through my mind. Like there were times in my career I wanted more, like, give me more. I can do it. I can do it. And I was working my way towards burnout, didn't even know it when, the reward for me was more work, bigger projects, bigger assignments, promotions, all of that is great.

But another reward could have been an extra week of vacation, right? To just relax or, a day off here or there. So, I just don't think we recognize that when we really should. Yeah, absolutely.

So up until this point, we've been discussing, how to recognize. And prevent burnout in the workplace, and we're looking at it from both perspectives, right?

The individual, the organization, and in the organization, mostly it's like the HR team or the leaders and how they can maybe look at things differently and, and address things differently. It's a challenging topic for sure. I think all of us here on the podcast are, challenged with discussing it, which makes it even more important that we do and we're brave and we want to do that.

So yeah, I think that the more we can uncover here, the better. So, let's dive in a little bit more into some of these challenges. And then we can maybe talk about some ways that we can tackle this on our own. Yeah. I have a questions for Amanda. So, now, this burnout things, right, so it's not just in one field, but in many fields. I like to maybe discuss, Amanda, about what can we learn about ourself behind this burnout.

So, I'll be honest with you. When I realized that I was burnout. I blamed that on the company that I worked for. I would say, a few months. And what I slowly came to realize was, while that culture didn't help with my burnout, a lot of the reasons that I burnt out are internal factors.

So, for me, the perfectionism, right? The wanting control. The people pleaser in me. Those are three things that internally, no matter if I've, you know, been in a season of my life where I'm an entrepreneur, if I was a, you know, during my childhood, these were even things that were present. So, until I realized that those were three things that I had to identify and work on, I would continue to burn out.

And I did. I burn out post corporate life because of my internal factors. So, if you're listening to this and you are burnt out, or maybe you're not even sure if you're burnt out, because we live in such stress and overwhelm for such long periods of time that it becomes normal, unfortunately, and we don't realize it.

But I want you to ask yourself, what's driving some of that? If you have a hard time letting others do work, or maybe they do the work and it's still not as good as you would want it, and you're constantly redoing things or finishing that project up, you know, tap in, and see, is it a control issue? Is it because there's perfectionism that's, like, really coming to the surface?

And if you're someone that has a hard time saying no, you really need to tap into that people please learn part. A lot of women have this characteristic, because it's just innately in us to take care of folks, right? Like, we truly want to help people and take care of them, and oftentimes, that has turned into a yes.

Yes, we'll do that. We don't want to disappoint someone. So, look at what your internal factors are, and that's really gonna help you to realize what steps you need to take next. And it might seem overwhelming, but I can promise you it just starts with simple things once you have that awareness.

That's very good insight and it's kind of lift up burnout in a, in a positive note, because it's when we are aware that we burned out, like you said there is a gift behind it because I think those things, people pleaser wanting in control and perfectionism I think we all have certain degree of those.

And how can we be more aware how that. Gets in the way of us of moving forward because I think those are powerful. Those give us power because, being a perfectionist, of course, you're going to do your, your job well, right? So that gives us power, but at the same time, too much of it will give us burned out.

So, it's like our power, like the other podcasts that we have with our guests. Our power is also. Can be a kryptonite, and seems like self-realization or self-awareness is really help us to kind of be honest with ourself on that.

Yes.

I know that, you know, for me, I really had to come to a place where I had to figure out what my own values were, like, what are my values, not the values of my company, right? So that then really helped me in the self-awareness piece to start asking questions. So, one question that I ask myself a lot, even today, is the people that mean the most to Are they getting the best of me, or what's left of me, right, because one of my biggest values was being able to be a mom, to have time with my son.

And when my perfectionism creeps in, is that at the expense of some good family time, because now I'm spending more time editing podcasts or, you know, pushing out content or doing more work, whatever that is, is that at the expense of having time with him.

Prioritizing your values. Yeah, and a little simple shift like that too for us internally can make a big difference How would you? recommend somebody Demonstrate that at work. Like, you have your own business, so it's easy to manage. And you're, maybe not easy, but it can be easier to manage. But if you have, you know, a team that's expecting you to do things or, or, you know, business leadership or clients, like, how do you, how do you then do that?

Like, how, how do you prioritize in that kind of a situation?

So, first of all, I'm huge on communication. And for you actually using your voice and being truthful, right, of what you're experiencing, maybe what things are a priority for you. So let's say for an example that going to your son's baseball game or practice is the priority for you this month, right, and you've got a project going on.

Maybe it's communicating to the team that you work with, to your leader. And then you can also, you know, you can also set a goal. So, for example, I'm, I'm going to be on, here are days where I have to be, you know, offline, out of the office, whatever that looks like by a certain time. But that's also helping you in your day to prioritize the things that need to get done.

So, you can make sure that you're hitting that goal, right? That. That commitment that you have.

Communication is huge. So as an example, you know, I'm working five days a week, nine to five job and sometimes more hours, but I need two hours off on Wednesday to go to my son's basketball game. I then, I'm a professional, I'm gonna adjust my schedule 'cause I know I have things to meet by the end of the week.

I just have to communicate that. In a way, like, I, not just, I, I need time off for two hours to go to this game, but I'm going to follow that up with, I'm going to adjust my schedule to make sure that I meet the deadline, right? I'm going to meet, like, you're going to be a responsible person, so to communicate that along with your needs, I think, would be really helpful, because the first thing I'm A manager might think when you say you're going to take time off is they're never going to meet their deadline, right?

It's very important what you're saying because I think a lot of things is managing expectations. So, others would have something expect from you, complete your work, but assuring them, you prioritize things, assuring them that's going to be done or assuring them that, you are there being responsible.

I think that's important as well to kind of make other people feel safe or feel okay with, with the expectation. But I also want to, bring out something because what you said is very important. But in the beginning, it's going to be hard for people to say it, to do it, especially for the people who are not comfortable to saying no so I would say the part of this journey of overcoming burnout is getting used to feeling uncomfortable to say no, or to, to have work not perfect.

And I think if we allow ourselves to be uncomfortable in this scale or in the beginning, at least it won't go worse in the end, because I think burnout is really, you cannot handle it anymore. But feeling uncomfortable in the beginning where we ask, or we set boundaries, we say something that we feel it would be disappointing for others to hear and knowing that it's, oh, I'm alive anyway, like nothing goes wrong, would help us to be more comfortable in showing and communicating our value. What do you think, Amanda?

Oh, I totally agree. And I'm glad you brought up boundaries, right? Like, cause that's exactly what this is.

It's you stating a boundary and communicating that. And I think one of the, the hardest lessons for me to learn with boundaries, because as a people pleaser, we don't really have much innately, right? So it is, it's super uncomfortable for us to have those boundaries. The hardest thing with a boundary is actually you enforcing that, and I know the word enforce seems really hard, but let's think of this example that Laura brought up, right?

You're at your son's basketball game, and you've communicated, right, that that was your priority. You've planned for it, you've executed stuff at work, and now you're there, and your phone rings. And it's work. What do you do? Are you going to answer it? Or are you going to hold tight to your boundary and know that that game is going to be over in probably an hour or less and that it's not the end of the world, you can call them after the game, right?

So even the times in the corporate world where I would say, hey, I have to pick up my son at this time. I still did not enforce my boundaries in the evenings because I was answering texts and, you know, taking phone calls and, you know, doing whatever. But you have to be able to enforce it. And your body is gonna, your, your body is gonna feel so weird when you do that.

But I promise you, you are gonna survive it. And you're gonna come out on the other end feeling so much better than if you would have kept with that same cycle. Of like being on all the time

and I think the more you do it, the more comfortable you'll do. So, let's take the story another step further.

Right? You not only realize they're still calling me, even though I told them I was not going to be available. The next time you communicate that you're going to. Child's basketball game, you're going to say, and I'm not going to take any calls unless set the expectation that had the building is burning down, right?

Then you can text me and I'll pick up the phone. You just have to train people on the boundaries that you have, and it's going to just come up often and you're just going to practice it and you're going to get better with it. And you know what's going to happen when you do other people are going to take your lead, right?

They're going to start practicing it. And that. is how cultural change within an organization takes place. That's so

true. It's when you give a different example, not just by saying things, but by being it, by embodying it, then everyone gets it. Oh, that's possible. That's possible. And that's where it starts.

So, it's very interesting leader is not just about saying things or telling people what to do or doing things that supposed to do, but also setting boundary. I think that's part of leadership. Showing by examples because we are human too. Like we can get burned out, not just people who work with us, but we, we are the same and you, bring up a very good point. So, before we end, is there any other message that you want to tell our listeners?

If you think that you have to live the rest of your life being stressed and overwhelmed and in this constant state of, go, go, go, go, go, I'm here to tell you that you don't. Your body doesn't even want to be in that state, right? It doesn't, and it's causing you harm. So, as uncomfortable as it is, you can take the steps.

to be able to truly dig out of that burnout and make those changes. And, you know, maybe that's making the changes at home. Maybe it's making it at work. Maybe it's making it at the company that you work for. I always say things are always a data point for you, right? If you realize that I'm doing what's in my best interest and the company isn't backing you on it, that's a data point to make other decisions.

But you get one life and There's really no time to waste that being burnt out and stressed out and overwhelmed all the time.

That's so true and powerful. Thank you, Amanda. Where can people find you? Or is there any things you want to give away for listeners? Yeah,

absolutely. So I actually just came out with a free e-book that I would love for the listeners to be able to download.

And it is called “Corporate Crossroads.” Should I stay or should I leave? And it is the first in a series of a few different books to help folks that might be in the same position where you are, where you're at this crossroads in your professional life and you know that something's gotta change, but you really don't know where to go, right?

And this is gonna help you work through that. I would love to connect with you all as well, so you can find me most active on Facebook, at Amanda K. McWhorter. The same handle for LinkedIn and Instagram as well. So, feel free to check out the link to that e-book in the show notes.

Awesome, Amanda. Yeah.

Awesome. And I just want to say, like, let's recognize the listener who's listening right now to the episode. They've taken a step. Right here right now. It

was a podcast that actually was the first step for me realizing that I was burnout.

So, you could look back on listening to this episode and realize that this was the moment in time where your life changed.

Absolutely. And then they can listen to your podcast and learn even more. Yeah,

I forgot about the podcast. You can come find me on any of your favorite podcast platforms.

I host the Corporate Detox podcast. And Christine was actually just a guest, but really, we share stories of lots of different folks on their own corporate detox journey. And some folks have stayed in the corporate world, some have left. Some are going back, it's, it's just, it's interesting just to hear the different stories and the amount of hope that comes from them.

That's beautiful. So, we want to ask you our lightning round questions. Sure. Find out a little bit more about you. Absolutely. All right. So, let's go. Where do you go for inspiration? I go to podcasts. Awesome. What is one habit that you've adopted over time that's really improved your career?

Using my voice and being authentic. What is one thing that keeps you moving forward each day? My son. Hmm. And what is the most valuable piece of advice you've ever received?

I once had someone ask me, how does that feel? And I didn't know how to answer because we're so accustomed to making decisions from our minds.

So really feeling into making decisions based on how it feels in my body has truly changed the game for me.

Awesome. You're such a delight. You're so informative. You're so fascinating to talk to. I know we're going to continue our conversations on our podcast, your podcast. Offline, wherever. Definitely find all the information on Amanda in the show notes for all the listeners and it's been great.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for having me on.

Thank you, Amanda. And that's it, listeners, for this episode. And we hope you find a lot of insights and being very useful on this podcast. And like us, follow us on our podcast, review, make comments, and we'll see you next time.

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