#20 - Be the Hero of Your Story!

Welcome to the Women's Career Mastery Podcast, the show that's dedicated to empowering women to redefine success and break through barriers. I'm your host, Christine, and my co-host, Laura, along with our amazing guests and experts. We are here to shatter the myths that have been hindering women's careers and fulfillment for far too long. So, if you're ready to master your career and take your life to the next level, join us in our journey together. The Women's Career Mastery podcast starts now.

Did you ever think about how tough times might actually make us stronger? Well, today's guest knows firsthand. She's been through a lot, a childhood filled with trauma, gender discrimination at work, and even fighting cancer that almost took her life. Not just once, but a couple of times, but here's the inspiring part.

She's not just getting by she's excelling in her personal life and her career. Join us as she opens up about her journey, sharing the tools and lessons she's learned along the way. You'll discover how she managed to become her best self while facing life's toughest challenges and how you can do the same.  And now we don't further ado. I hand it over to my cohost, Laura.

Hello, listeners. It's great to be back for another episode of the Women's Career Mastery podcast. Our guest for this episode is Serena Sacks-Mandel. Serena is the Global Chief Technology officer at Microsoft for the education industry. Prior to joining Microsoft, she was the chief information officer at two unique, technically advanced, large public-school districts, and prior to pivoting to education, she led technology innovation teams at IBM, Walt Disney World, Harcourt Inc and many other organizations.

She has won numerous state, national, and global awards for her leadership, vision, technical excellence, and commitment to supporting women in technology. And, very exciting, she just launched her new book, Empowered: Frame your Narrative, Own your Power,, which is all about how to overcome both personal and professional challenges by framing ourselves as the hero and not the victim. and forgiving those who have caused harm. Her story is truly inspiring. So, we want to dive right in and get started.

So, Serena, we are so grateful that you're here with us today. Perhaps we can start by having you share a little bit about yourself and why you wanted to be on our podcast.

Sure. So, good to be here. Thank you for including me. And I do want to preface this all with, I am here as an individual, not as a representative of my company. So, I want to get that clear. I wanted to be on this podcast for the same reason that I wrote the book. It's about inspiring, motivating, and supporting others.

And whether you're already in a conversation with an emerging leader. I remember how hard it's been, and I still have, days and moments that are challenging. And I wish that I had a book like this when I was in my twenties and thirties and forties so that I knew there was hope and that others had succeeded and that I would overcome, put things in perspective.

So, that's what this book is about.

That's great. Do you maybe want to start with telling a little bit about your story? Like your personal story, because I think it's very impactful.

Yes. So, my personal story and, most people that I have worked with in my, 30-plus years don't even know, kind of what happened.

Before I got into my professional career, and I just want to say that domestic violence and abuse crosses all lines, education, socioeconomic, geography, race, everything. And so, in my book, I tell the story of, my younger years and how I basically had to be an adult from the time I was five or six years old, mediating my parents’ divorce, even though I was the youngest of four, and it was, one challenge after another.

And if you go back even further, I was an unwanted child, and my parents made that clear to me. When I was about six years old. So once again, I had to really be an adult and, I survived those younger years by suppressing emotions, literally not even acknowledging feelings, just moving forward.

And that carried me quite a way until I was actually in my forties and realized that I was missing out on a lot of life by denying those feelings and emotions. And I do feel like I've come into more of my own, my full self and comfortable in my own skin. But the story in between, I had this, horrific childhood.

And, I think because of that, I probably chose the wrong partner initially. I was looking for the safety and security that I never had as a young person and ended up with somebody that was more, controlling and manipulative, and I trusted and, got burned. So, had to go through a divorce and then about, five years after I was divorced, so I was single, I was diagnosed with, very rare, aggressive, uterine cancer.

And so, there's a journey there. Two years of illness. Was chemo resistant. I had surgeries. I had chemo. And then it still came back and metastasized to my lungs. So, then I had to go through another set of chemo for another six months. And there's sort of an untold story that I have seen with not just myself, but other cancer survivors.

That it's the year after the cancer and the chemo that's actually worse in some ways. People tend to forget that you were sick or are sick and leave you and it's emotionally and physically devastating. The chemo takes a huge toll on your body. Physically took me a long time to overcome that.

And then the emotional kind of strain from both the physical and what you've been through and survivor guilt. And the concern that it's coming back any day. So, there's just so many emotions you go through in that year after. So, if you do have friends or family members going through some kind of a traumatic illness, just remember that just when the illness is gone, doesn't mean the trauma is gone.

So that's a little bit about my personal story. Meanwhile, this whole time, I'm navigating these challenges. I started college at 17, started graduate school at 19, worked my way through the whole time, graduated with a long professional resume. Started off at IBM in Manhattan in the financial services industry.

And, you know, my story's in there. I went from IBM for after 10 years to Walt Disney world and, 25 years of corporate IT, and then pivoted to educational technology where I really felt like I found my purpose. I could feel that I use my powers for good. So, my organizational leadership, my technology skills and education are so fundamental to every individual's success and prosperity, as well as a region.

A lot of people don't realize how important education is for the prosperity of a region. So, with education goes GDP. It's so fundamental for each person. It's personal, and yet it's also economic and political and geographic. So, I felt that education was so in need of technology, innovation and now with AI, especially.

So, we really do have the tools to make a difference. So, it's really an exciting place to be.

Absolutely. The whole time you're talking, I'm like, got goosebumps. There's a lot that you went through. They're very traumatic times in your life, but as you're going through the traumatic times, you're thinking of others.

Like, what do you do to help other people? So, tell me the story of, how this led to your empowerment, because I think this is your secret sauce somehow.

You know, it really is. I mean, you've asked like what inspires me and what drives me, and it is I have found over and over and over, no matter how bad things are when you reach out and help others, you feel better about yourself, and it comes back to you.

So. There are parts in the book that you'll see that I could have been a statistic my junior year of high school. I was really making poor choices. And if I had kept doing that, it really would have gone down a bad path. And I can only imagine. Let me go back to I'm not supposed to be here.

I'm not even supposed to exist. And some people's attitude to their parents telling them that they're not wanted or that they shouldn't be here would be to kind of curl up in a ball and try to disappear. So, part of it might be my wiring. I think anybody can claim this power if they have a role model, if they hear somebody say it.

For me, that was, you know what, I am here, and I am going to make a difference. My life is going to count for something because I wasn't even supposed to be here. So, I'm going to make sure it counts. And it's that framing of the narrative. And owning that power, how can I make a difference. So even when I was in high school, I wanted to go into government to make policy changes that would help people's lives.

I just had that in me, I ended up in corporate for 25 years and then found this education. And it's so inspirational. The educational technology, one of my first cousins who's very close to me. He said that to me, too. He said, you could have been so negative and bitter and angry at the world and instead you choose to reach out and help others, whether it's your family, colleagues, even people that I don't know that I'm helping them get an education.

And he's right. I'm not trying to be anybody special here. I'm just trying to make my life count. And, you know, we all have a birth date and a death date and in between is the dash. And if you've seen that phrase, you know, the dash, what you do with your dash matters. I would say part of it comes from my cultural, heritage, which is Jewish and the phrase to “tikkun olam”.

Tikkun olam is to repair the world. And to me, this is the overriding value of Judaism is that we're all here to make a difference and to help repair the world. So, you know, what was my tikkun olam? It is to support my family, my friends, and do something good in the world. And that's where it comes from. And it makes me happy.

I can see that. These little nuggets that you're sharing, like, you always see that there's a way to help people. That there's a better way of doing something. That there's a way to make an impact in the world. You're not just helping people you're helping regions perhaps, countries, right?

I mean, yes, and you're not bragging about it You're just, this is who you are. This is your purpose. This is why you're here.

So, I work with ministries of education, departments of education in the States. I work globally now and, and I am humble about it because I don't really even feel like it's me and my work.

When, I was sick when I almost died, I never prayed for my own healing. I thought I'd already won CIO of the Year. I'd already won Woman of the Year. I've already won. And I had helped a hundred thousand students improve graduation rates, test scores, every metric across every demographic, minority students with disabilities, you name it.

So, I had already made an impact when I got sick in my early fifties, and I worked in an amazing environment where everyone supported each other, and I never had to pray for myself. I would walk down the hall and people would hug me and smile and say they were praying for me. So, I prayed for everyone else, and I said, you know, God, I just felt like I was being attacked, like why, you know, it was horrible.

And I'm not, you know, I was angry at the time, but I moved through that. And I said, God, if this is my time, I'm good. I've raised my kids. I have made a difference. I'm good. And I don't have a partner. So, I don't like, what do I even have to look forward to anyway? You know, I don't really like traveling alone.

And, you know, I had a house that I enjoyed. But I said, if I am supposed to be here, if this isn't the end, then show me, tell me, give me purpose, and let me do, you know, to be a little bit, let me do God's work. And I think if we kind of allow, I don't want to come off as some religious wonk because I'm not, but I do feel that whatever you feel is a higher power, if you allow that to come through you,

Then it's just what I'm supposed to be doing. This is just why I'm here.

Yeah. We've become unstoppable. I want to get into the tenets of your book, but before we go there are a lot of our listeners are, in careers. Debating whether they should change careers. They may be somewhere that they shouldn't be.

Like you're saying, I'm not even supposed to be here on this planet. Am I supposed to be in this organization? Like they're questioning these things like right. Is there a way to connect some of what you're saying to that?

I love that, and I'm so glad you're asking, because I did make quite a few pivots.

I've given presentations on being courageous in your career. And let me just say, courage is not fearlessness. Courage is, you are afraid, there are concerns and you mitigate those. You use your logic and your rational self, and then you overcome, then you use your spirit. So, courage is analyzing the whole situation, figuring it out, but then overcoming your fear.

I was giving this presentation on my book at the university of Tokyo. And. If you know the Japanese culture at all, it's very harmonious. It's very quiet. It's very much of a fit in culture. And this young woman at the question-and-answer part stood up she raised her hand. She said, sometimes I feel self-doubt.

And my heart went out to her, and I said, yes, and I feel that everyday too, but our job isn't to stop the self doubt. It's to overcome it. And it's to say, yes, I have doubt. This is my fear. Let me understand that. Let me figure that. Okay. I'm going to do it anyway. And you grab your power, your strength.

And you do what you know is right. So going back to your original question of how do you know when it's time to make a pivot to some extent, you know, but there are some clear signs. If you don't feel valued and appreciated in your current role, and you don't feel that you're able to make a difference.

So, I believe in strengths-based management. I build a team on that. Not one person needs to stand alone, even myself. I want to have people that are smarter and stronger in areas that I am not. We are stronger as a team than as an individual. The leader has a role and everybody on that team has a role and it's clear.

If you don't feel that you are a clear member of the team with specific responsibilities that are aligned with your strengths, then you're probably in the wrong fit. And that has happened to me several times. Now, you always want to be moving towards, not away from. So, if you do feel like you're in a situation that's not aligned with your values, your strengths, and your goals take a minute more than a minute, maybe and right down. What would your ideal job look like? What would it feel like? What would you be doing? How would you be contributing? And then go for that. Go for something that excites you, that makes you feel alive, energized, and valued.

And don't leave that difficult situation until you have something to go towards while you're in a difficult situation. And I've been in plenty of those. One of my takeaways from the book, every day and in every job, figure out how you can add value, how you can contribute, and what you can learn.

So, no matter how tough the situation is, you can always make a contribution. You can always do something to help a peer, to help a customer, to improve the product, to do something positive while you are learning. This is what I like. This is what I don't like. This is what I'm good at. This is what I'm not good at.

How can I take this methodology and improve it for the next role? Because the more you learn, you're contributing to your own value in the next role. So, without talking about specifics and specific people, I'm happy, to coach and to mentor, and to get into some of those specifics.

That's the overall framework. Does that make sense?

That makes perfect sense. And I love how you brought in, okay, you're going to stay, in the challenging situation and you're going to learn from it and you're going to contribute even though it might not be the most comfortable place you ever wanted to be.

And I think if you come in with that mindset yourself. And that's how you're going to approach it. You might find things shift, right?

Right. You give it a little time, you talk to your leader, you ask for more clarity on your role. You try to connect more with your peers, and you try to improve the situation and you will learn and contribute by doing that and it can turn around.

It can turn around. I've seen it turn around. The grass is not always, greener.

Right. I think there's a fear there. You know, when you are in that kind of situation, our instinct kicks in and we just want to run away from it. Yeah, but no, the fight or flight.

So yeah,if you can get out of the being attacked mode, if you can say, wait, this isn't personal, right? Let me understand what's going on. And that's what I'm saying. Use more of your rational brain. We all have emotions, and we all have our, analytical side and rational and use more of that rational to kind of figure it out and take the emotion out for a minute and analyze it and do not run.

Go towards do not run away from. So, yes, I have stayed in tough situations for a long period of time, trying to turn them around or wait until I really found something that would be better. And I'll give you a story. I won't use a name, but I was talking with a young younger person in her twenties. A couple of months ago, and she loved her job.

She loved her boss, but she wasn't making a whole lot of money. She thought she saw people around her making more money. And she said, maybe this isn't the right job. Maybe this isn't prestigious enough. Maybe I'm not getting everything I should. Should I leave? I said, look, you like your job, what you're doing, and you like your boss, you know, that's a home run.

It isn't about the money. And, and that's one thing in the book that I talk about. This goes back to the title; you get to define your version of success and it isn't about the money. Yes, we all need to Have a level of comfort, Maslow’s Hierarchy of Need i.e., shelter, food, et cetera.

Beyond that, money is not a huge satisfier. I mean, how many times do you look at the numbers in your bank account? And, like, is that even emotional? Like, is that really, intrinsically fulfilling? No. What you do, what you contribute, who you work with, those things are intrinsically fulfilling, and that's way more valuable than the numbers in your bank account.

So, it's a marathon, it is not a sprint. If you're not making as much money as you think you should right now, that's not the problem. You will grow in your career, and you will make more money. What you should along the way and always live within your means always be saving some money, you know, treat yourself a little I'm not saying deprive yourself.

One of the phrases I put in the book, and I came up with when I was 10 years old, and I still live by it. “Learn from the past, live in the present, and plan for the future.” Super simple. You did that at 10? I did. Wow.

You're wise beyond your years at that point. Honestly,

Tell me more about, let's get into the book and the empowerment thing. Like you had specific tenants about, in the book about, what does it take to be empowered and frame your own narrative? Tell us a little bit about that because I think that, and listeners take notes because this is going to be good.

Well, I mean, you, actually took some of my thunder in the intro, which is fine. It bears repeating. But the idea is that no matter what happened or who said something to you that hurt, that isn't about you. It's about them, right? So, you have to let that go and forgive them. It doesn't matter.

Like, you'll see these horrible things that happened when I was young. That was my parents’ issues. That wasn't me. And the first step in growing up is putting your parents in perspective. They are human. They have their own issues. Troubles and foibles and they are a product of their upbringing. It isn't who I am.

Only you get to define you. Only I get to define me, and I decided that I was going to make a difference in the world. My parents didn't put that on me. They didn't tell me to do that. I decided and then I did what I thought was right. So, frame your narrative means this didn't happen to me. I overcame it with the attitude.

Right? So, I overcame. You are the hero of your story. Not the victim. Nobody should be a victim. A victim is just sucking the air out of the room. That is just a bad place to be for yourself and everyone around you. You want to be the hero of your story. So, frame your narrative.

And tell the world that I overcame this and be proud of it. Give yourself credit, credit, credit. And when you overcome, and when you let go of the past by forgiving it, not because they were right, because they weren't, but because it doesn't serve you. You choose what serves you? So, you know, there are lessons when you are young that you think you learned.

So, for me, it was shutting down all emotion, right? So, I just shut that down and that helped me survive as an adult. How well was that serving me? I actually had to rethink. I had to inventory the lessons I thought I learned. And decide as an adult, whether they would serve me or not. And I suggest that people do that.

And when you do that, that's empowering. I am not a victim of what happened. I am a hero of my story. I get to empower myself and decide what I keep and what I let go of. It is your choice. And for me, defining my success on my terms means empowering others. When I hear somebody got a job or promotion or married or child.

I'm excited for them. And that's what life is about. I went from being isolated, completely self-sufficient, basically living on an island to realizing relationships and people. We are social people. And, if the pandemic taught us anything, yes, we could survive in our bubble, in our apartment, on our house.

You know, without the social interaction, but when you get together, if you had that experience after the pandemic, seeing people live, I mean, you realize that there is a social fabric of being in person that matters. There's an energy exchange and it's almost palatable to have a meal with somebody after you've been isolated for years.

It's just palatable. We need each other. So that empowerment is something that you claim. And then you can help others with that journey as well. And that's what I've done. So hopefully, that's what you were looking for.

Yeah, I love the part about, own your story.

Like, that's what I'm hearing. Whether it's, a big story, a little story, a big challenge, a little challenge, like, just own it. It's part of who you are. It's part of what makes you, you. And people want to know it. Like we want to know your story. Right.

Everybody has a story but let me edit that a little.

You get to decide what your story is. You get to decide and, when you're younger, you think everything is so big, everything is so magnified and, when you put it in perspective, when you've got some decades behind you, you realize you don't have to remember everything. You don't have to remember all that bad stuff.

You can focus on the positive. So, you decide what your story is.

Right. You don't want to be, in the victim mentality and you don't want to be in the blame, like, I'll be caught up all of what these people did, or they did or this company. No, no. If there's a moment in there where there's an opportunity for you to be the hero and you want to capitalize on that.

And when I see people that have not been so successful and have been floundering, even later in life. It's because they have been blaming others and not framing themself as the hero and not taking advantage of those crucial moments where you can decide, and you can do what you want in terms of your life and who you are.

So, not naming any names, but I have seen this. I have seen people sort of be unraveled in their life and not because they're not smart or talented or good looking. They're all of that. And yet they haven't figured out how to claim their own power. They are blaming others and not telling their story in a positive way.

Right. And, really, you also talked about, stay true to who you are. In terms of, I'm thinking like your values, right? You know, your purpose, that thing that makes you wake up every morning, that gets you excited.

So, there are two things there.

And here I refer people to Brene Brown's work. Brene has done amazing work. I love Dare to Lead. I love Atlas at the Heart. I love all of her books. Even, The Gifts of Imperfection. I listen to them all the time in the car. It's like therapy. And two takeaways there.

So actually, I'm going to give you all three takeaways. One, I've already given you the three major career takeaways from the book and my life are one, be authentic, and you can tell one of my good friends said, Yep, Serena is, you know, what you see is what you got, like, good. You know I'm all out there.

The day I did the book launch, I'd had surgery on my back the day before, and I had an emergency root canal that morning, and I am like here presenting to everybody, talking to everybody, and they're like, oh, my gosh. I'm like, yeah, that's what happened. It just is who I am. But for other people to understand who their authentic self is.

I'm not saying just let it all hang out. You know, I don't need to know all that personal stuff that is private, like there's still social norms, privacy. What I'm saying is understand yourself first, know your strengths, know your weaknesses, know where you lean on others, know where you can support others, like know who you are, and that isn't one and done that's throughout your life.

We all go through changes, whether it's every five or 10 years. When you know who you are, you can show up authentically, and you can say, I need help here. You don't have to be the know it all, you can be the learn it all, to quote Brene again. So. Authenticity is showing up, not as perfect, but as yourself.

So that's the first one. The second one is the one I talked about before. Every day in every role, make a difference, add value, but also learn. So, I'm not going to go in that again. The third one is. Live your values. And once again, that's not your trite like, I value money. So, what I talk about values, I say, go back to Brene Brown's definition of value and her exercises.

And there's lots of others out there, too. This is another thing that's not a one and done, but it means a real inward search. The very few values that are super important to you. And then it's an accounting of your time, your money, and your energy. That's your life. That's your currency.

How are you spending all of those things? And are they aligned with your so-called values? And when you do that, you're living authentically, too. So, in the book, I talk about when I was, getting divorced, actually. So, over a decade ago, I started working with a life coach.

And here I was married, I had a good job, I had two beautiful, wonderful, smart kids. Everything I had wasn't enough. And there's a book of that title too. I read by Kushner, and I was like, why am I empty? And I'm like, I don't even know what my core is. Like, what is my core? I need purpose for the rest of my life.

So, I worked with this life coach and she, took me through a six-month exercise where I defined with her the three words that were going to guide the rest of my life. And they still do. The first one was contribution. And this was easy.

That's what my work is about. I always feel like I'm giving more than I'm taking. And that's what I want it to be. So, the contribution is both personal and professional for me. I'm on a lot of nonprofits and other organizations that I feel help people. So, contribution comes easy, and I was already doing that.

And then at that time in my life, it felt empty. It was before I was in educational technology, and I was working 80 hours a week. And I was exhausted, and I realized I hadn't smiled or laughed in probably over a year and I felt alive from here up. That was it. There was nothing else. And I finally put my finger on it that I needed moments of exhilaration.

I needed to feel that I've climbed the mountain or just a belly laugh with a girlfriend over a glass of wine, or I love being on the water and kayaking and doing something active. I love biking. I love anything skiing. I love motion and I needed more of that. I wasn't taking time to do those things that fill me up and give me energy.

And then the third one was aspirational, and I am almost there now, I'd like to say, and the third one is serenity. And that is part of my name. And, it felt like, oh, that's why I'm named Serena.

But as we get older, as we get more mature. And we look out to the future. We want some quiet. We want some peace. And that was the opposite of how I lived most of my life. It's go, go, go, go, go. You know, my mother, busy was good. Like, how are you doing? I'm busy. Good. You know, and relaxation wasn't in my vocabulary.

It wasn't in my mindset. And I realized, I needed some of that. I needed some meditation time. I needed taking in nature time and that's what my current husband and I are doing. I met my husband a month after I was better from the two years of cancer. And so, the world did open up. I did get my purpose and my perfect partner, and my life is amazing.

Now I celebrate every day. I'm happy to be alive and living these three values. I'm

Yeah, I hear them. I see them in you. I know the listeners can't see this Like the joy that you have in you and the fulfillment. I wish they could see that in your face because it's really shines through.

And I just want to say like I haven't read your whole book yet but I, I am a fan of Brene Brown. I like to think she's a best friend cause I listened to her in my ear all the time on her podcast. I'm so close to the same place that you are in just thinking about things because if you asked me five years ago, would I be sitting here doing a podcast with Serena Sacks-Mandel, I would have never dreamt that.

So, like I've been working towards life. And I love it. And I'm working towards my purpose. And here we are like, so it, yes, we're both testaments that this can happen. Like, right? You find your joy and your joy can be both your work and your personal life. It can all work out. But like the things that I have in the book is, you know, you have to get your education under your belt.

You have to figure out your short- and long-term goals and purpose. You have to be resilient because we all suffer. This is life. We all suffer at moments and times. And then we overcome and the perseverance, the working through, whether it's boredom or whether it's a bad boss or whether it's a hard day, whatever, persevere, get through it one foot in front of the other and to find success on your own terms.

And then you can achieve your own triumph.

Love it.

What a great way to lead into the closing. I love that, Serena. Is there anything else you think is really important to share with our listeners before we start to transition?

Well, I feel like I've given my main takeaways, are key. I guess the only other thing is that you can find information about me and my book on SerenaSacksMandel.com. S E R E N A S A C K S M A N D E L dot com.

And your book is available on Amazon. That's right. Yes. And, the link is on the website as well. So yes, it's on Amazon and you can download the e-book, or you can purchase the soft cover, and I will eventually be recording the audible, but I'm too busy right now.

And we can follow you on LinkedIn?

Yes. Perfect. I'm on LinkedIn and, again, Serena Sacks-Mandel and then on my website is a comment form. So, if you want to get in touch with me, if you'd like me to be a live speaker, if you'd like coaching and mentoring, that's all available and you can contact me through the website.

Okay. And we'll have all of that information in the show notes for the podcast as well.

Good. Thank you.

So, before we close, we like to do our lightning round of questions to get to know you a little bit more and maybe help inspire us as well. So, are you ready? Yes, okay, first question. Where do you go for inspiration?

I listen to Brene Brown, Adam Grant, Simon Sinek. I listened to nonfiction and sometimes it's totally different, like about the engineer Tesla, not the car. I will read about, black holes. I will just learn about all kinds of things, whether it's in this world or out of this world, and that makes my mind open up and it inspires me.

Great. What is one habit you adopted that has greatly improved your career?

To contribute every day, learn every day. No matter what, if you have a learning growth mindset, you are a better coworker and you're a better contributor and, you're a better friend to yourself. Beautiful.

What is one thing that keeps you moving forward each day?

Oh, well, part of it is just a sense of responsibility and the people that rely on me and that I take care of and the work that's still left to be done. I'm also motivated every day to reach my ultimate dream of serenity and work towards that. So, I'm looking forward to the next phases. My husband and I are actually building our dream house.

And last question is what's the most valuable piece of advice you ever received?

So, I'm going to actually turn that around if you don't mind the most valuable advice that I've given people and I've received feedback that it is. If you have kids or grandkids that are in their middle school or high school years, tell them not to peak in high school or middle school. Tell them this is just a moment in time.

This is just a pathway to the next step because these young folks, things happen on a daily basis, especially middle school, but also high school, where it just seems so large that their world and their life will never be different. And they get frustrated and upset. And somebody says something, especially with social media.

It can be so damaging. Help young people put that in perspective. We want no self-harm. We want no bullying. We want kids to have a healthy mindset. And to me, that's the most important thing right now because our young people are suffering.

Oh my gosh. Thank you for sharing that. And that's true to you as well.

Helping others even here to the end of the podcast. Well, thank you for sharing that. It's been wonderful to have you. I feel like we could talk forever. I'm going to finish the book and reach out again. And definitely. Good. Good. But thank you so much. This was really great.

I love talking with you.

I love sharing this and it's just a message of kind of hope and perseverance and persistence and we can all get there together and I, I do truly feel like we're all connected. So, thank you for reaching out to me.

You're very welcome.

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