#2 Thriving Without Compromise with Sunita Alves

Hello everyone and thank you for tuning in to the Women and Career Transitions podcast. This is Laura and Christine. Now, more than ever, women are challenged with their careers. Here, we speak with women who are making professional career transitions at all stages and levels. They share their experiences, insights, and words of wisdom in an effort to encourage and support each other because that's what women do: we support one another.

So, today, I'd like to welcome everyone joining and listening in to this episode. We are focusing on busting the myth that women need to sacrifice to succeed. We know that many women experience burnout in the workplace and that they often feel like they have to choose between their mental health, well-being, family, or career. But we also know that women are just as capable, if not more, as men when striving for success. So, the question is, why do so many women feel like they have to give up something to achieve? Our expert guest today has shattered this belief and is here to share her wisdom on how we can reach our full potential without sacrificing everything we hold dear. So, I'm really excited today to hand the mic over to my colleague, Christine, and get the conversation started.

Alright, thank you, Laura. Today, we are joined by a remarkable woman who has truly lived the topic of our discussion, Sunita Elves. She's a seasoned project manager, consultant, alive coach, and the author of Breakthrough: A Memoir of Toxic Work, Mindfulness, Inner Peace, in which she candidly shares her personal journey and the obstacles she faced and overcame in climbing the corporate ladder. We are excited to hear her insights on how to break limiting beliefs and empower women to reach their full potential without sacrificing their value. So, without further ado, let's dive in and hear from Sunita.

Hi Christine and Laura, thanks for welcoming me to your discussion. A little bit about me - I've worked in IT for over 23 years as a project manager, engineer, and consultant. I started out right out of university and climbed that ladder. Right now, I'm at the top of my skills and income, and so I've had that journey. But what I'm really passionate about and why I'm so pleased to be part of the discussion is that I have gone through the ups and downs where I've experienced burnout, sold out my integrity, and lost my mental health. However, on the other side of that, I have reclaimed those things and now have a balance in my career that I've been searching for for the last two decades, to be honest. So, I can definitely share some of those experiences with the guests who are listening today. Just for some information, Sunita and I worked before in a large IT company, and through her challenges, she went on to become one of the leaders in the mindfulness community in the company. That's how I met her and became involved in the mindfulness community as well.

I know you have had a lot of transitions in your career. Can you tell us about the transition that was most challenging and transformational for you regarding the topic that we are discussing today?"

Yes, I think in my career, I worked for 18 years as an employee, and so actually 18+5 and two other companies, a total of 23 years. In 2018, I transitioned to being an independent contractor, so I had my own incorporation and started to work with clients as a consultant. That was a huge transition because I was no longer an employee.

I didn't have a company salary benefits, some of that security, and now I became an independent consultant. The reason that was the most challenging was because I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to do it, but life came and got me to do it.

What was happening is I was in my dream job at the company that Christine and I had met at. And what I was doing, mindfulness and leading coaching, were things that a leader who leads with empathy loves to do. I was working on a project to improve the education of indigenous youth in Canada. I was supporting people in my projects, and I had colleagues in the mindfulness and coaching community that I really, I would say, loved in the way that you can love your coworkers. There was a very close friend that I was sort of protecting from bullying in the workplace, so I was really invested in my work. Every part of me, I brought my whole self to work.

What happened was there were toxic behaviors in the workplace. There were some integrity issues, some ethical issues, and then I was being harassed. Those things sort of piled up until I lost my mental health and I went into depression. I also had high blood pressure, and those are cofactors.

I think they one leads to the other, and I became not myself anymore. So, the superwoman Sunita who was able to climb the corporate ladder was gone, and it was a mess on the floor, Sunita’s. My "got it together" self wasn't at the table anymore. So, how do you navigate that transition when you have a mental illness? Like, how do you figure things out when you don't have your full mental faculties? It was very hard. I didn't know what I was doing. I was confused. And then finally, I had an accident, and I ended up in the ER, and it was very frightening to me and my family. And I still went back to work, that's how much I cared about it. I still went back to work two times, took two sick leaves. I kept going back because I cared about these projects, I cared about my coworkers. And finally, my body just would not walk in the door one day. We had this gate that you had to pass through, and it didn't want to go through, and I realized I couldn't even think straight.

I wasn't myself, and then I had to admit I could not work anymore. And then that brought a whole bunch of things down, right? Because I grew up immigrant parents. You don't walk away from a good job and a good salary, you just don't. And now, I'm a quitter, and I lost my identity as this employee. It was like things were being taken away from me, and I had to figure out who I was. And that was the best part of that whole situation. That was the fruitfulness of it because that's where I was able to become a stronger version of myself that I couldn't have grown into if I didn't have that challenge. That was the best transformation, the most challenging transition of my career.

Wow, that's beautiful. It's amazing how much you had to go through and how resilient you were, continuing to care about others and being in purpose in your work. Looking back, where is the moment where if you realized what you realize now, you would have done something different?

I think, clearly, I let my mental health deteriorate, and I did not put that first. I think when someone is going through multiple stress factors, you have to know what your threshold is, and I was way on the other side of my threshold. I'm dealing with my projects, and I'm finding that promises were making were getting broken, and as a project manager, your clients, and there's a trusted relationship there, and trusted integrity are such core values of mine. To break that to somebody put me into a crisis, it really put me into sort of a spiritual, ethical crisis, and that was another huge thing that was going on for me at the same time.

And then for me, I'm so empathetic that if I see somebody else being bullied or being psychologically unsafe in the workplace, I take that in. I was trying to be the protector of people of client relationships parking my own needs because in my mind I said if I go to a report this harassment what if they blamed me and Take Me Out of the job. Then I'm disappointing all of these people. So, I sacrificed doing that because I didn't want to take the risk that there would be blowback because I've gone to HR previously in the company and I ended up getting blamed. 

The answer to your question, Christine, is that I would have realized that this was too much for one person to bear, and I would have had to say no to something. Like, I would have had to ask for help, maybe get counseling. Something had to come off my plate. You can't just do it all. It's just too much, and I did not recognize those cues and say to myself, "Listen, you can't protect this person and you can't protect this client, and you can't not protect yourself. This is an equation that just doesn't add up." I think out of empathy, I was sacrificing too much of myself and leaving nothing to take care of my mental well-being.

Yeah, I found also similar to mine, maybe some other people, is we keep it to ourselves. It seems really hard to speak up at work because there are so many consequences that we think might happen when we do something that is expressing our own needs or our own concerns.

We heard so much about the belief that women must sacrifice to succeed, and of course, sometimes it's not "yeah, I'm going to sacrifice myself," but your story, like being empathetic, wanting to serve, then we forget about this. It seems like it's so subconscious. What do you think about it and how do you see it, and why do you think it's happened?

I think looking back on my experience, there are two types of sacrifice, and I want to talk about both. The first type of sacrifice is when you have a goal in mind and you're going to make some trade-offs to get to that goal, and that goal is aligned with your integrity. If I go back to a more positive period of my work career, maybe 2008-2010, this is where I was going from a junior entry-level project manager to an executive or senior level, so it's like a couple of promotions up. I wanted to improve myself at work and also improve my income for my family, and I think that's a goal a lot of women share. One of the things I realized once I had my kids was that I wanted to spend time with the kids and also be able to succeed at work, and I thought, "OK, so what am I going to do to make that happen?" One of the things we did was have a live-in nanny, so we sacrificed our income.

The second type of sacrifice is when you start sacrificing things that are part of your core identity and your core values. And I think that's where I went wrong. I started sacrificing my mental health, which is not aligned with my integrity. And so, I think that's where the problem lies. We have to recognize what are the things that we're sacrificing, and are they aligned with our core values and our core identity. I think it's so subconscious because it's a message that's been passed down for generations. Women are supposed to sacrifice for their families, for their careers, for their husbands, for everything. And I think we have to start breaking down those beliefs and recognizing that, yes, there are trade-offs to make, but they have to be aligned with our core values and our core identity.

A little bit, because it's quite a bit more expensive to have a live-in nanny than to get some daycare, but we sacrificed that income to get that balance which was aligned with my husband and my goal to spend quality time with our children when they're young. And sometimes you do it with sleep, right? Sometimes you have to lose some sleep to get things done, sometimes you do it on the weekend. But I say, if it's aligned with your values and it's short term, it's fine. That kind of sacrifice, I think, we have to do to get ahead. An example of that is athletes. Athletes sacrifice in very strategic ways; they'll push their bodies, but then they'll get rest. They'll push their bodies, but then they'll get enough hydration. When the line is in the workplace, and I've suffered burnout as well, is when we push our bodies and we don't get rest, and we don't sleep, and we don't eat right, then that is not good sacrifice. It makes no sense, right? Because you're just burning out the very thing – your brain and your body – that enables you to work. So, there's a sort of, you know, if you're aligned and you're sacrificing, know your thresholds by which you will restore the source, which is your mind and your body.

The other kind of sacrifice is when you start doing things that are not aligned to your integrity and not aligned to your values. So now, an example of this: I was working and I was yelling at my kids. And one day, I think Jessica was in grade three, we went to open house at the school and she's like, "Mommy, Daddy, I want to show you my book." And we went to her desk and she opened a book and it was called "All About Me." And she said, "I'd like to read and I don't like math," which I didn't like to hear, but you know, she was in grade three. And then she said, "I like it when I'm drawing," and then she drew a picture of her drawing. And then she said, "I don't like it when mommy yells at me," and she drew a picture of me yelling at her. And it broke my heart, and I realized that is a sacrifice I am not willing to make in terms of career success. 

I actually took a back step from my career at that point. I said, I don't want to advance my career anymore. I'm just going to stay flat because to advance my career, I would have to put so much in, maybe 50% in, 40%, and work 50 hours a week, 60 hours a week, work on the weekends.

That's how you advance your career in the tech industry. I would only get like a fraction of that back. I probably wouldn't even get a bonus that year or I may not get a promotion for four or five years. So, there's no good return on investment for that. So, I actually just said, I don't want to progress my career because those sacrifices were too much.

You know, I guess what you're saying is whatever we do that are priorities, we need to choose. And when we choose in alignment with what we want or who we are, our purpose or value, that becomes something where we support ourselves. But then when things that we are not aware or not mindful enough because sometimes work takes a lot, it takes a lot of our focus, then we need to be able to step down and really back with our priorities, what we really want in our life. And I think that's what you're saying. It makes me realize that the sacrifice is not just about work, it's about what we want in our life, and work is a part of it.

Another question I'd like to ask you is, can you share if there are any specific or unique challenges that women of color experience when it comes to career advancement? 

Yeah, this is a big topic and it is a very important one. I think the research shows that women of color are disadvantaged in the workplace. I think that's a fact with research to support, so I can only speak from my perspective. And as you guys know hearing of this call, right, I'm very aligned to my integrity and I need to bring that in the workplace. That is a must-have for me. I'm also an introvert. I also have echoes of, there are so many labels for this, like imposter syndrome, insecure achiever. As an introvert, I don't like to speak up. I don't like to be contrarian to anything. I like to keep the peace and harmony. That is me as a woman of color, and I know there are other women of color who are bold and who use their voice and who do take their share of the limelight and the stage in the workplace, but I am not one of those. So, I would say for me as a woman of color in the workplace, I find that when I speak up against the narrative of the leadership, that my voice is discounted.

I'm an introvert and I do have these, you know, other things. I also have my skills and my acumen and my experience as a project manager. So, I know when something is not right and that gives me the confidence to then speak up, but I find that people don't like when I'm not this. I don't know if they expect women of color to be sort of you don't talk back -- you tow the line, you take the work, you do it. I don't know if that's an expectation from the outside, but from the inside I was raised in British Guiana. My ancestors were indentured servants so we have this sort of master servant cultural thing in our background where you know you always want to make sure white people are happy and you do whatever you can. Go out of your way to get their comfort and happiness and this is something that's in my grandparent's genes, great grand parents and my parents even. So, they'll talk about white people in a very different way like growing up a red child that there's just always this like edge that you know, oh wow, you need to you know. Let's make this person sort of better than the the rest of us brown people. I'm sure I absorbed it so I don't know if it's coming from inside me in the workplace. So, I don't know or maybe it's a combination, but I find that people do discount my voice a little bit and I know from that one time where I went to HR and I spoke up against the leader who was, you know, I think not treating a client with integrity and mismanaging the account. We had an investigation and then they basically told me in my next review that I was a profound disappointment because I wasn't towing the line. I still speak up but now I don't expect people to necessarily do anything with what I speak up about. For me, inside I mean I still need to speak up. I just can't swallow that even if it loses me job promotion opportunity or they won't renew my contract. It's very interesting what you're saying because I think there is the external than the internal. 

Yeah, seems like for the external we cannot control. Meaning that as long as we stay with our integrity, as long as we stay with our value, who we are in our alignment, that's the way to go. I also want to invite women of color, which is I'm part of it as well, is to look within and see what bias I have. Like what you said about you know your ancestors because we're born in trauma. So how can we also look inside instead of blaming what is our unconscious that challenges in ourselves. For me also, invitation to look within as well. Thank you for that, but what would your advice for women of color given the challenges that you mention.

I think you just said a really good one Christine. To look within. Understand that unconscious bias that you might be bringing into the current situation that's not important right. So, an example is I often would pick up and do tasks and organize tasks for the other guys in the group. Like on my team. I was just like why am I booking their meetings or why am I following up on their actions or smoothing things over? Right? That's not my job. So, I kind of see this unconscious bias that I need to take care of everyone and everything and make everyone feel comfortable something I inherited. My cultural upbringing. That's a good thing because I can bring that positively to the workplace and to my family and friends, but again I don't want to overdo it where it's not warranted. 

So, look within. See if what you're doing makes you feel aligned with your integrity. And if it doesn't, as a woman of color, don't pick up too much on our plates. As women, many women, our plates are full. And if you have a tendency to do more, for whatever reason, the color, if you're feeling impostor syndrome, we can want to do more for many reasons. Do you really need to do that more because your plate is only so big? Think about what's on that plate, make sure it's aligned with what your values are, and make sure you're on the plate. You have to be on the plate too because you're the plate, and nothing happens without playing.

The other advice is to listen to your body. Your body tells the truth all the time. If your abdomen hurts when you go into the office, ask your abdomen what's going on. Say, why are you working right now? If you can't sleep and you're thinking about work at 3:00 AM, what's your body trying to tell you? If you're having stomach issues and having trouble digesting your food, what's your body telling you? If you're having aches and pains, your body is trying to tell you that message. And it's not specific to women of color, but I think as women of color, we say yes to more than our share.

So, just keep that in mind. What's your threshold? What's the line? Why are you sacrificing? It doesn't make sense. Another one of my friends told me about, which I really liked, is this analogy of spoons. You only have so many spoons, and you can only give so many spoons. And when you run out of spoons, you've got to stop and take care and fill the tank again. So, how many spoons are you giving away? Are you giving away a spoon for work, or kids, and this, that, and then just reevaluate all the time because it changes? Balance is something that changes every day, every week. Yeah, hopefully that makes sense. Thank you, and that's very good advice. What I like also about sometimes are we giving out of fear? I guess that's a question. It's good to ask ourselves, are we giving out of fear, or are we giving because we want to give? Because when we do that, then we give, and we don't really pay attention to ourselves because we pay attention to our fear and consequences. But when we are coming from that power, that strength that we have and knowing who we are when we give, I think that's a powerful thing to give. Giving is good, but too much is very subjective, depending on our capacity as well. So, are you like what just saying? 

And the last question is, how do we all come to terms with the concept of women sacrificing for success in their career?

That's a good question. I think you want to define success and you want to define success for you in all the domains – spiritual, mental, physical, family, your own creativity, your own art that you want to bring to the world, or service you know. Whatever is important to you once you define that success, then you decide what will you sacrifice to get that success. I think you have to sacrifice, even having children, which is one of the most wonderful things you've got to sacrifice for them right and we wouldn't have had a second child. So, you sacrifice from sleep, money, your time, like you just do that and when it's aligned to one of the things you define for your success. Go for it like that's a worthwhile sacrifice, but then the next level is you can only do so much sacrifice. You only have so much to give, right? You can't do it all. Sometimes you have to say no to 1 success so you can have another success which is what I did. I was making a very good income and you know I realized what I would have to sacrifice to get that income to be 20% to 40% more and I said no. That sacrifice is not worth it. 

I think we have to align our sacrifice to our definition of success and then limit that to what we can handle and you know what? If some life event happens, if your mom gets sick and you have to give her palliative care or something else happens in life, then you get to go back and readjust that sacrifice you're making in the other areas. Like don't do what I did which was just keep going keep, going, going no matter what was happening in my life. You've got to read the factors and adjust all the time.

Thank you, Sunita. The things that I hear from you is that even if initially, success which we all need to make for ourselves, not because of what other people say about success, but our own success. It’s also something that is evolving like you said about, you know, depending on the family -- what happened in the family. Seems like we need to slow down once in a while not just once, but quite often to question and to reflect 

if this success is what I want. That this is what I'm willing to do, not this is what I should do. I think that's very important. I felt we have a lot of should do’s but when we change it into this is what I want and I'm willing to do. That's a different matter.

Before we close we're gonna open today for about 6 minutes or 8 minutes for the audience here to also chime in and Laura I'm going to hand the next section to you. 

OK thank you I love the discussion. I'm like at the edge of my seat listening and hearing and I want to hear what everybody else has to say. Does anybody have any thoughts here in the room with us today about this topic of having to sacrifice to succeed in a professional capacity or do you have any questions for any of us. Feel free to come off of mute or if you'd like you can post your question in the chat.

Hi, my question is that I was just listening to the whole discussion right, but you know, did you label us as being very successful in terms of career oriented? There’s all that but then as a woman there is a biological clock, you know, that conflicts. We are actually running on the race, but then as we get to that age of 45 to 55, that's where a lot of changes happen in woman's body in terms of biological aspects, right, which we don't have control over. So, that is also or maybe important factor where we would actually feel the challenges even much more heavier on us right. So, we are aging but we are still actually competing ourselves against this lot of negative factors and as a  movement and women of color and as a leader how do you actually level set yourself to to calm yourself and make yourself say that OK? 

This is how you have to deal with that, right, these are the factors that you have to stay focused at the same time bring happiness to yourself. How would you actually what are your thoughts on that right, because I know it's a very difficult stage for us when we hit age of 45 to 55 at the same time we wanted to keep the momentum going, right. We wanted to keep the speed going and we're still actually on the race, right. Become more successful. How do we actually pause, stop give respect to ourselves and kind of make happiness as the most important factor to yourself.

Sunita do you wanna answer?

Yeah. I think we're all in this age group we could all chime in but yeah she brings up a good point because typically 45 to 55 to 60 is we're going to do a lot of our current growth that's when people try to increase their income for their pensions to really make a difference and we're also going through a lot of life ages from peri-menopause and menopause as women. So ,like I said you have to keep adjusting what feels right in your life. You know there's many levers you could pull. You can take sabbaticals. I did that. You could get help if you need help from a time perspective. You could take a step back. You could change your career to something that's more aligned. I think this is a very high change time and a woman's life and while you have the spare tank, enter fuel in the tank in your 20s and 30s to just like hit it hard and get that work done right. And raise your kids and do this and do that. That energy can kind of peter out. I find that you have to become more focused. You have to choose more carefully as Christine said. You have to I choose to do this. I want to do this and I my perspective is you know that phrase “if you do what you love you'll never work a day in your life?” I think if you make your sacrifices to what aligns to you in the present moment it won't feel like a sacrifice. It'll actually fuel you so that's, I think, the sweet spot is get to what is aligned to you no matter your health. Your everything around you. Your holistic life and if it's aligned it won't feel like it's like you'll be able to put those hours in and feel that happiness that comes from the sacrifice. 

Thank you Sunita. Appreciate that Valencia. You have a question that actually wanted to put a positive spin to that because I'm right there in that age group and I found that I have a little more energy. It's kind of a paradox, but I found I have a little more energy and I think that energy comes from well, my kids are not small anymore they don't need me as much I have a little more of me to go around. We've also developed at that age and expertise in our domains and our respective domains which makes the job a little easier and we have a little more credibility in in the workplace. I would think at that age, as well you know, coupled with the expertise in our domains. So, I think we have some positive things going for us in that area as well which we could leverage to our advantage. You know, kind of scale back. Do it if you want to, as you need, a suggestion. If you want to kind of, you know, take a sabbatical or even take a part time role, because you've developed that expertise you could do more with less amount of time. Kind of leverage those efficiencies that you've developed in your domains. Just wanted to put that out there. 

I love both perspectives but regarding, also our body and you know our capacity physically. Sometimes it's good to, except that's the way it is I think the hardest part is when we don't accept and when you don't accept, we become resistant. 

But I found I have more energy and that energy comes from my kids. They are not small anymore. They don't need me as much. I have a little more of me to go around. We've all developed an expertise in our domain which makes the job a little easier and we have a little more credibility in in the workplace.

I would think at that age, as well, you know coupled with the expertise in our domains, we have some positive things going for us in that area as well which we could leverage to our advantage. 

What we want to do, because we feel like we're not putting ourselves, our potential first, but when we accept the way it is then there is a flow that allow us to be more creative because we're not spending our energy feeling that this is what we want. So, I think I just want to put it there because I think there's a power in in feminine energy. As women, I think this is the age the feminine is really needed in this world to be able to go through the transitions. The uncertainty that we have, and I think the feminine power is how we can hold things. I feel like, how can we bring the femininity into creating success for ourselves which is not what the world teaches us right now. It's always masculine and you know go-go-go and work hard and strive. But how can we allow both and have more balance in our pursuit. I like that Christine a lot. It really makes you think about what you're doing and how you approach things, but I'd really like to add what I was hearing from you. It’s the word sacrifice which comes up when, to me, it's we're trying to live up to the expectations of what maybe in the career you're expected to do. “I gotta climb that corporate ladder,” “I'm at this level I want to get to the to the highest possible level and make the highest,” but that's a conditioning we've gotten from being in the in a corporate environment. Or you know in any situation even in a family there's an expectation and just coming to listen to who you are and what you want and setting their expectations for you. There is no sacrificing, right, because you're not comparing. You're really following your journey. 

I think that came up with me when I was listening to the questions. There’s always some inner talk that's happening within you and you have to tune into that inner talk. I've had that inner talk say – “I was defined by my job so if I take a step down step to care for my child, who am I anymore? Am I a contributor to my family if I'm not making money. Am I worthy person? That thought, that's my thought but everyone will have a different thought and if that's your thought as it as you are winding down your career you're going to have to deal with that career, that thought. Because not having an income, I think everyone has to transition. If your income changes and that's one thing and the other thing to the Valencia 's point that 50 is going to be like 45 to 50 could be a huge source of energy where you where you just like taking off like a rocket into your vision. Or it could be a time to slow down and sort of take a back step and that's actually what I'm doing, I get to the pinnacle of my career. I'm a senior project manager. I'm working at more of an intermediate project manager to slow stress. I'm not being asked to run these highly complex programs and I'm still being paid quite well and that's OK for me. But another woman might want to really go forward in her career so it's very personal.

Yeah so, I just wanted to share those thoughts. Watch what the head is thinking. I think Christine talks about the head space and the heart space. Your head might be having all these thoughts running through, but just question them and be willing to change some of those thoughts if they're about yourself worth. 

I also want to add something, how we can use the doubt to question our own beliefs rather than to question ourselves. That's something different like how we would use that power, you know, doubting sometimes. It's good if we use it for the right thing. Not doubting ourselves. I want to add one thing too, as well. I know we had the question how do we go back and help ourselves. Know that we're enough? I wish I'd known this 25 year old, 28 year old Sunita had known this just what your family or your spouse, your partner, your parents, your friends. Do you think I'm sacrificing too much for work? And they will tell you, and they told me, and I never listened to them. I mean you know you can just ask and they will tell you, your loved ones, will tell you. Then say, but why am I doing it anyway and then go into that inquiry that Christine said. I love that. 

So, with that I'm gonna move to our lightning round of questions. We ask three questions to you Sunita. You get one to three words to do the answer like just don't think about it a lot. Just shout out what comes to mind for you.

First question: What is the number one leadership skill you were relying on more now than ever? 

What is one word to describe your mindset right now? Open

What is one thing that keeps you moving forward each day and on track to achieve your goals: 20-minute morning meditation.

Words of wisdom everybody. Thank you Sunita. Thank you Christine. Thank you to all of our listeners. We hope that you enjoy and get a lot out of this podcast and it helps you in your journey or your career transition to think about how and when and why above the word sacrifice. It's been a real pleasure to be with you all today.