Sam Hughes - Rovers Return Dog Training

Martin [00:00:11]:

Hello. I'm your podcast host, Martin Robson. Harborough Hustle proudly sponsors local charities. Check us out on marketharboroughbiznetwork.co.uk/podcast, where you can find a transcript of today's podcast, all the links that I mentioned, posts that you can share on social media to spread the word, and everything you need to know if you'd like to help our local charities Find out more about our lovely sponsors. Today, I'm going to be speaking to Sam from Rover's Return dog training. But Just before we get into our conversation, let's hear from our lovely sponsor. Welcome to this episode of Harborough Hustle, Well, I'm delighted to be chatting with Sam from Rover's Return dog training. Hi, Sam.

Sam [00:01:06]:

Hi, Martin. Thanks for having me.

Martin [00:01:08]:

Brilliant that that you're here. It's lovely to see you. Have you been out walking the dogs at all this morning yet?

Sam [00:01:15]:

Not yet. Now I'm gonna wait for it to warm up a little bit, and then we're gonna go out for a nice long walk.

Martin [00:01:20]:

Fantastic. So you'll be going out in about a month and a half's time. Great. Alright. So the first question we always start off with is is just a a little nutshell version because we're gonna go deeper, you know, as we go on. Just tell us a a little bit about who you are, where do you live, what do you do, and what do you do outside of work?

Sam [00:01:40]:

So, yeah, my name's Sam. I live in Ullesthorpe, and I am a qualified dog trainer and behaviorist. I like to go to the gym outside work. I like to socialize with my friends, go out walking with the dogs, and just try to be as active as I can.

Martin [00:01:57]:

Fantastic. Yeah. It's it's always a challenge I find trying to get as active as I want to be, but, Good thing to keep us young, something like that.

Sam [00:02:06]:

Yeah.

Martin [00:02:08]:

You're doing dog training. So what kind of things do you do? I mean, do you run classes? Do you what do you do?

Sam [00:02:21]:

Yes. I've got classes. I run group classes. So puppy classes, follow on classes, scent work classes, which are absolutely fantastic for scent work. So I'm looking to sort of develop those a lot more and get people to understand the benefits of some work for their dogs. And, I specialize in behavior work for fear, anxious, and reactive type of behaviors in dogs.

Martin [00:02:47]:

Okay. Alright. Just just a little bit on the, the scent work as well. What what actually could you tell us a little bit more about that?

Sam [00:02:54]:

Yeah. So the dog's nose is the their primary sense. So they literally smell everything before they do anything else, just like we look at something first because our eyes are our primary center center site. They use their nose. And, actually, what happens in their nose when they're sniffing, starts A whole rolling neurons and hormones splash to the brain, and then you get calmness. You burn lots of energy. They got a lot of information, and it's just absolutely fantastic. The process of them sniffing is what happens is the nose and then in their brain is absolutely amazing.

Martin [00:03:40]:

Okay. Fantastic. We'll come back to, maybe How you might actually use that in a training sense, later in our chat. But, let me just ask you. So how did you actually get started with this, as a business?

Sam [00:03:54]:

Well, I was actually working for the prison service, and I wasn't overly happy with my job. And I wanted to initially do grooming. So I went and spent a day working with a groomer, washing the dogs, drying. The dogs didn't obviously do any cutting of the dogs. And I didn't overly enjoy it if I'm honest, so I decided that working with dogs is what I wanted to do. I've always had dogs in my life. So I started doing day care and walking. And because I wanted to understand dogs more, I did a Level 3 course in dog behavior.

Sam [00:04:32]:

Honestly, since then, I haven't stopped learning about dogs from there. I went on and did a level 4. I did dog training courses with APDT UK. I've done numerous behavior courses, And I just find the whole subject fascinating. It's, I really enjoy it. And I've got 2 docs myself. And, when Ernie was So to reach his teenage years, I used a method on him that I found in a dog training book, which actually caused him to be quite scared. I threw something on the floor.

Sam [00:05:07]:

And in the book, it was sort of to say, come back to me. There's me thinking that was a good thing to do because he was getting a bit naughty running off, but in fact, it actually scared him and he ran off from me even more. So that just made me want to learn why that happened, and that's what has made me choose force free training instead of sort of the more punitive methods of dog training that are out there.

Martin [00:05:31]:

Really interesting. And, you mentioned APDT, I think it was. What's that?

Sam [00:05:36]:

The Association of Pet Dog Trainers. They want they're one of the lead lead professional bodies of dog trainers, vets, take advice from them, Deborah, all sorts of people. So, yes, really good organizations to be affiliated with.

Martin [00:05:50]:

Okay. And it's it's quite interesting you're talking there about different, certifications, different trainings you've gone. Is there any kind of requirement, you know, somebody wants to say, hey. I'm a dog trainer. Do you actually do any of this stuff, or is that something you've chosen to do?

Sam [00:06:08]:

It's something I've chosen to do because I wanted to do it properly anybody can become a dog trainer. It's unregulated. There's no standard. So you could set up a dog training business tomorrow if you wanted to. People are paying money and you would probably I think you've got a dog yourself, haven't you? So you've got some knowledge of dogs. But In terms of their behavior work, and what's going on in their brains and their associated hormones, it's very specific. So, Yeah. It's quite worrying that some people are actually out there calling themselves behaviorists without any qualifications at all.

Martin [00:06:43]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And I guess a little bit related to that is, do you think there's Something that people don't think about enough if they're gonna, hire a dog trainer, you know, to to help their their dog, and their relationship with them, are there things that people should think about more?

Sam [00:07:02]:

Absolutely. Yes. You know, our members of various dog, not dog. Sorry. Facebook pages of, you know, dog breeds and dog friendlies. And some of the people that People are recommending on there use some real harsh methods of dogs and have a real outdated view on training. And these people are recommending those people saying it it worked for my dog. And, unfortunately, it does work, but it works because you're pressing and stopping the behavior and not actually tackling the emotion.

Sam [00:07:36]:

So it only worked for a certain amount of time because if you've not dealt with the emotions, then the behavior would have to come out in in some way or another.

Martin [00:07:47]:

That's how

Sam [00:07:48]:

that it works.

Martin [00:07:49]:

I guess that's the same with Humans, actually. Yes. Exactly

Sam [00:07:51]:

the same with humans. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Martin [00:07:55]:

And and you mentioned, Force free training as as the way that that you've gone. What are some of the the examples of things that you wouldn't do? Would you recommend other people do as well come to that?

Sam [00:08:09]:

A lot of a lot of things people don't understand. Things like slip leads are are technically forceful because they tighten around the dog's neck, and the dog's neck's very delicate. And I whenever I sort of Put that on any of my social media. I get a lot of backlash saying I'm wrong, but I don't use any equipment that increases any version of any force or aversion. So prong collars go around the neck, and they stick spikes into the dog's neck to stop pulling or, lunging or barking towards the the dogs. So you're basically using a form of pain to stop that behavior because when the dog does those behaviors, it doesn't like the pain so, therefore, it stops doing it. So 8 collars, prom collars, slick leads. Some head some head hold tears as well.

Sam [00:09:02]:

I don't I don't I know I don't use. To be fair, I don't recommend head to toe to toe in general because they are punishing. However, there are times when it comes to being a risk that I may recommend a certain type so the person can actually walk their dogs.

Martin [00:09:17]:

So, I mean, what what's the alternative then? When you're talking about force what would you do in order to get the same effect without having to do aversion therapy?

Sam [00:09:25]:

It's about thinking about why the dog's acting that way in the 1st place. So when we think about and barking at other dogs. I do an assessment to find out why the dog needs to be act that way because all behavior is due to a Internal physiological reason. So we tackle that reason first. So in that case, it's likely that the dog's frustrated or fearful around other dogs. So we work on building optimism. We work on calmness to reduce those stress hormones that are driving the behavior because they stay in the system for quite a long time. We work on their ability to Disengage and focus on other things, and all using food and toys and just calmness in general.

Sam [00:10:11]:

So you've gotta literally strip it right back It's very raw state of why that dog's doing that way doing that behavior and put something into place to Actually, say, no. You don't need to feel that way. So then they don't need to behave that way. So once you've tackled those underlying emotions, The behavior actually reduces and then stops because they don't need to behave that way. They don't need to shout to say, I'm scared. Help me because you've already put that into place before they even feel that way.

Martin [00:10:43]:

It's really interesting. I mean, is there any you you said you used to be in the prison before you did all this, obviously, I mean, part of the, prison program is is trying to reform and and help prisoners. They don't reoffend. Do they have anything like that? Are are there any parallels, I suppose, with the kind of, like, trying to find out underlying reasons and and tackling those rather than just the the symptoms?

Sam [00:11:06]:

Yeah. I actually worked in offender management, so that was more about looking at, circumstances, why they committed the crimes, family life, drug use, you know, finances, all those sorts of things. It was a very The assessment process literally looked at everything from offending history to their childhood, to their family life, alcohol abuse, substance abuse. You know, same thing. We looked at everything, and then we came up with a plan to help them to stop committing those crimes and acting that behavior pattern again. It's always a behavior pattern that happens, this happens, they commit crime. So, yeah, it's very, very similar.

Martin [00:11:46]:

Mhmm. It's just interesting listening to your talk there and thinking, I mean, for so many people, your your dog is, you know, your son or your daughter, if you like. And and yet, you know, we have a way of of dealing with with humans, and sometimes we don't Apply the same, psychology with with animals, and yet, you know, quite clearly, That's something, a path that you're going down and and finding results in.

Sam [00:12:14]:

It's very difficult for people to put, Put it into the animal's perspective because we know how we think. So you can't think how a dog thinks. So, obviously, I do because I've got the training, but I absolutely understand that we you know, quite often people say, well, my dog's doing this because of that, But that's actually what a human would do, whereas we have to think of it as what would my dog do because they haven't got the same brain components we have, and they can't think as we do. So quite a lot quite often, it's unfair what we put, What we think a behavior is into a dog's behavior.

Martin [00:12:57]:

Yeah. No. That makes a lot of sense. So, I mean, you've you've clearly done a lot of training. You've got a lot of experience in this Is there something you wish you'd known earlier in your journey that you could now kind of tell a younger Sam, hey?

Sam [00:13:12]:

Yeah. The only thing I would probably change is just to be a bit more confident and go out there. It me a long, long time to start doing dog training from from when I did my day care to the walking to actually going into training full time. I had the qualifications, and I probably had the skills as well, but I didn't have the confidence to sort of put myself out there. So I would probably just Tell myself that, you know, you do know enough now. There was a I suppose there was a bit of a time when I first started I probably did some things. And when I think back now, I do think, well, I didn't know enough to actually be doing that. But, unfortunately, that's just, again, due to the regulations that there's so many courses out there.

Sam [00:14:00]:

You do some, and they're not as good as some of the others. So, Obviously, now I've grown and done a lot more courses. I know what I didn't know then, if that makes sense.

Martin [00:14:10]:

It it does. I mean, there's there's a Classic kind of thing, you know, a progression through you don't know what you don't know Yeah. To, now I know what I don't know, And now I've not got to find out how do I actually get to know that. You know? So it's that kind of stage in in all different, All different trades and things and and aspects of life, I suppose.

Sam [00:14:31]:

Yeah.

Martin [00:14:32]:

Is there anyone, that was kind of like a a mentor to you or someone you looked up to and went, you know, and learned from?

Sam [00:14:39]:

Yeah. Exclusive. Great dog trainers I follow online. Chirag Patel, I think he's a wonderful trainer. There's some that I used to follow that I don't follow now because I don't like the way that they work. No. Shira Patel, definitely. Can't think of any other names off the top of my head, but, Yeah.

Sam [00:15:00]:

And I've recently been working with Helen Motoren from the, pet professional network. So I've been doing some mentoring on Dog training and business with her as well.

Martin [00:15:10]:

Okay. Fantastic. So that would kinda be like if we're talking about someone who's who you admire now, Perhaps you would fall into that category.

Sam [00:15:18]:

Yeah. Yeah. There's lot there's lots of great drug dog dog trainers that I I admire now and I follow on their social media and, You know, pick up tips from them. Emily Lan Larnam, I think her name is, on YouTube. She's a fantastic trainer from America.

Martin [00:15:35]:

So, I mean, you're you're picking up tips, you know, from groups that you're in, etcetera. If if if someone like me wanted to pick up, some tips or some information from you. I'm not quite ready yet to actually hire you or whatnot. Is is there a way of me doing that?

Sam [00:15:52]:

I've got a blog on my website, so you can check out my blogs. I write 1 every week on various different subjects, So I'm sure there'll be something that you can learn from. I do have a YouTube channel. It's, it's fledgling at the moment, so there's not an awful lot on there, but there will be incoming times. And you can always book a free call with me to have a about anything that you need to. Even if you're not quite ready to to go there, I can have a chat with you about what you need and how I can help you in the future.

Martin [00:16:25]:

Brilliant. Okay. Well, obviously, in in the show notes, we'll be including all the links to, Sam's blog, to The, the fledgling or puppy YouTube channel, and, and, obviously, how you can get in contact with with her as well. So, we'll we'll get to that bit in the end. We'll have it all in in the notes. One of the questions I always ask, is there anything you still want to learn? It sounds like you are a keen learner.

Sam [00:16:53]:

Oh, there's I have to actually stop myself from doing courses. My next step, I think, is going to be reiki for animals.

Martin [00:17:01]:

Oh, wow.

Sam [00:17:02]:

So I'm speaking with A lady called Sarah Johnson, locally to Willistop, she's a Reiki practitioner, and she does training for people wanting to learn Reiki and do it on the general public. So I've been speaking to her about doing it on animals as well, and there's a chat on YouTube is not YouTube. Sorry. Facebook that, that does Reiki for animals as well. So I think next year, that'll be my focus.

Martin [00:17:29]:

Well, I would certainly look out for that. I've not heard of that because it could be interesting to see how that goes.

Sam [00:17:33]:

Done myself. It's very relaxing. Not at all what I expected, but, yeah, I'm I'm quite looking forward to finding out a bit more about that, actually.

Martin [00:17:43]:

So confession time. What Which thing is one of the biggest mistakes you've made in business, and were you able to learn anything from it?

Sam [00:17:53]:

I just think sometimes I just it's just dealing with people, isn't it? You learn I I learn from every single person that I deal with. You don't always get everything right. Sometimes you upset people unintentionally. You know? And and I have done that, but I learn from it and change and try and make the best I can from all the situations that I find myself in and make my future interactions with my clients as Best as I can, really.

Martin [00:18:22]:

Can't say fair enough. Let's flip it 180. What about your proudest business moment?

Sam [00:18:27]:

I think just, completing at my level 6 behavior course that I did. I I managed to do it a lot quicker during lockdown, because, obviously, we weren't doing anything, so I was pretty much studying, and doing probably a module a week over that. So I got through it really quickly. So I did that. I got qualified in level 6, canine behavior. And all the courses that I've done really, to be fair, on setting up the business. I think they're really proud of that.

Martin [00:18:56]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, at at any time, Setting up a business, but, obviously, over the last few years, we've had you know, it's a a real achievement to be keeping going with that. Let's sync. So oh, that's what I want to ask. Sorry. Level 6, I presume, is the top level?

Sam [00:19:15]:

Yes. So you can go to university To, animal animal management, animal behavior, there's master's, there's bachelor's degrees. They're based on animals, not just dogs, and, obviously, very expensive and which is 3, 4 year courses, which I couldn't do because I was having to work full time. So, yeah, there's dig varying different degrees. It's a it's an equivalent to a a master's degree at University, basically.

Martin [00:19:49]:

Wow. Fantastic. Congratulations.

Sam [00:19:51]:

Yeah. Thank you.

Martin [00:19:53]:

So, I mean, if if you weren't working in this industry, Which it sounds like it's your passion anyway. Absolutely. What what else might you have done?

Sam [00:20:03]:

Probably gone into fitness or something like that. Yeah. Quite I like doing fitness. I'm quite keen into my fitness. I probably would have gone into that side of it.

Martin [00:20:13]:

Okay. Alright. And, one of the questions we always ask is is what's on your bucket list? I got told in one of these these So it's a bucket list wasn't a good good term to use. So, what else are you hoping to achieve in life?

Sam [00:20:29]:

Travel more, I think. I have not seen too much of this world, and I think it's worth doing before I get too old and Can't explore and enjoy it. So, yeah, definitely, traveling's on my list of things I want to do.

Martin [00:20:43]:

Fantastic. I'd highly recommend it. Yeah. Do you have a hidden talent that not many people know about?

Sam [00:20:50]:

No. I don't. I don't think I do, actually. No. Dog training. Well, no. That's not hidden, is it?

Martin [00:20:56]:

No. Absolutely.

Sam [00:20:57]:

No. I don't think I have actually. No.

Martin [00:21:00]:

Well, that means you're actually focused on what you're really good at. You know? Not everybody can say that, so that's a good thing. We did kind of mention briefly before, you know, about contacting you. So, What are the actual, name of the YouTube channel, your website, and and, you know, any other socials that we can get you on?

Sam [00:21:19]:

Well, I'm actually just transitioning my the name of the business. So you might find some places say Rover's Return Dog Training Academy, but I'm just Changing it to Rovers Return dog training and behaviour consultant. So I'm in the process of changing each of my channels. So, yeah, I'm on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok. You'll see quite a few videos on TikTok where I I talk about various subjects.

Martin [00:21:49]:

And that's all under Rover's Return?

Sam [00:21:51]:

Rover's Return. Yeah. Dog training. Yeah. Okay.

Martin [00:21:53]:

And I've gotta ask you why the name?

Sam [00:21:55]:

I wanted something that people would remember. I wouldn't necessarily say I was a Coronation Street fan, but, But it's a catchy name. A lot of people say to me, oh, I love your name. So yeah. I think

Martin [00:21:48]:

Absolutely. I remember the first time I came across it, you know, and I'm like, obviously, yeah, Rover dog. Rover's return. You know? But You do kind of think, where's the coronation? Yeah.

Sam [00:22:16]:

I like little play on words.

Martin [00:22:19]:

Brilliant. Alright. It's been fun, Sam. Is there I mean, before I let you go, is there anything that you'd like to share with us that, or sorry. No. Not share with us. What am I talking about? Dear me, it's been a long day. Is there anything I haven't asked you that that I should've?

Sam [00:22:39]:

No. I don't think so. I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Martin [00:22:44]:

Okay.

Sam [00:22:45]:

You haven't asked me about my 2 little doggies.

Martin [00:22:48]:

That's true. That's true. And I know you've got Ernie, so I was gonna assume what the other one's called, but tell us anyway.

Sam [00:22:55]:

Bert and Ernie. My little double trouble.

Martin [00:23:01]:

What breed are they?

Sam [00:23:02]:

My Labradoodles. So they actually are my inspiration. They're my light bulb moment of, you know, hang on a minute. We can do this better. We can do that better. You know, they might yeah. It does work. You know, you can change behaviours with force free training.

Martin [00:23:22]:

So I guess at the start, they weren't the the most obedient of dogs

Sam [00:23:27]:

Bert's always been very good. He's always He's always had great recall, and his recall went to pot when he reached his teenage years. So, again, that's something that I can relate to people. And when we moved, but reactivity got quite bad around this area. So that's where it spurred me to actually, Yeah. My studies then targeted that sort of types of behaviour, and that's why I specialize in them now Because I've been, I've worked through it. I've got I know the ups and the downs. I know how hard it is.

Sam [00:24:03]:

I can relate to people about how they're feeling about their dog. And, You know, when people think that your dog's being aggressive and they're gonna attack your dog when you know, actually, they're just feeling really stressed and anxious and You want to protect them? You mean, you don't want people to feel that way about you, dog?

Martin [00:24:03]:

No. Absolutely. That does remind me of one other thing, actually. I mean, It's reasonably topical to the point where we're recording this, things about, you know, XL bully dogs, and the other breeds that, you know, may or may not get banned, etcetera. I wondered if you had any message about that.

Sam [00:24:38]:

Yeah. It's really sad. I saw, actually, this morning. I think it was on TikTok or Facebook real. Somebody had abandoned, an XL Bully on a train, and it was there. I didn't have any lead or anything on. And you could just say it didn't know what to do. It was looking for some help.

Sam [00:24:54]:

You know? I just think it's really sad. I don't believe any Specific breed is dangerous, but I also don't think that you can just say it's the owner's fault. There's not one thing that Contributes to any dog's behavior. It's a number of things. You can't say a dog a particular dog breed is dangerous. I absolutely accept that they're big dogs. They're powerful dogs. And when they do, attack, then more, harm can be done.

Sam [00:25:28]:

I sort of accept that, and that's potentially why you're seeing The more on the news because more harm's been done by the XL bully than, say, a chihuahua would. But I don't believe that they're A particularly dangerous dog, and I don't think we have the data to actually prove that, as a breed, they are a dangerous dog that needs to be banned. We need to look at how many there are in the UK versus how many attacks, you know, and look at other breeds as well and what other breeds of of dogs that have that have attacked as well on a similar scale because I think you'll find that it that that is quite shocking as as, you know, statistics go.

Martin [00:26:07]:

And I suppose the underlying message really is no matter what breed of dog you've got, if it's got the right training, and and the right environment, then you're gonna maximize the chances. You'll never obliterate them completely, but maximize chances of of that, you know, being a great dog to have.

Sam [00:26:25]:

Yeah. Force free training. We know that punishment training, science has told us that that increases the risk of aggression in dogs, pain. That's another thing we need to be aware of. We often quite can't tell when your dogs are in pain Because animals hide it, it's part of their survival instinct that they don't show pain. But pain's one thing that I always look at when your dog's being aggressive because if they are in pain, they're more likely to, resort to sort of snapping and biting to protect themselves, then they they weren't in pain. So that's another thing that you need to look at, pain. We do look at the breed.

Sam [00:27:04]:

Don't get me wrong, but we look at the environment. We look at rest. We look at diet. There's so much that you need to take into account when you're dealing with a dog's behavior.

Martin [00:24:53]:

Fantastic. Listener, you're likely to be listening to this. I mean, if it come if you're listening just after it's been published as opposed to in 6 months' time, will be somewhere around about Christmas time. So, I mean, there is that old thing, you know, a dog is for life, not for Christmas. So, if you do get a dog as a present. Then please make sure you go and check out, Sam's website. There's so much good information on there.

Martin [00:27:42]:

That can help you, you know, really enjoy, and grow your relationship with your dog. Sam, it's been, wonderful talking to you. So just before you go, I'd I'd like to say, dear listener, please show some love for Sam. Check out all the show notes, and the links to their website and their socials. You can find that all on marketharboroughbiznetwork.co.uk/podcast. And even better, join in. Leave a comment, leave a question, leave a suggestion. We really appreciate learning how we can make the show, even better for you.

Martin [00:28:17]:

If you'd like to be a guest on the show, then pop along to the website. There's it shows you how you can do that. And we've still got a Couple of sponsorship deals left, at special prices for this year. So if you wanna sponsor the show, get along quick. Again, pop along to the website, get in contact with us. This, episode of Harborough Hustle has been sponsored by, tax assist accountants. At taxassist.co.uk. Thank you very much, and we'll catch you on the next one.

Martin [00:28:50]:

Thanks, Sam.

Sam [00:28:51]:

Thank you, Martin. Bye.