Quiet Quitting vs Employees Not Leaving: Has The Momentum Shifted?

[00:00:04.720] - Dan Paulson

Hello, and welcome back to Books and the biz. We are here for another exciting episode. Rich, how are you doing?

[00:00:13.590] - Rich Veltre

I'm doing great, Dan. How are you?

[00:00:15.320] - Dan Paulson

I am doing wonderfully. It is a cool Wisconsin day, but I am indoors, so I'm going to enjoy that. So I came across something. It's another Wall Street Journal article. Well, I hate to do two back to back. I did find this interesting, and I'll show you what I mean. First, I've got a video. So we are now multimedia. I'm going to plug this in here, and you watch this, Rich, and tell me what you think.

[00:00:42.730] - Dan Paulson

All right.

[00:00:43.990] - Dan Paulson

Here we go. And thank you to CBS San Diego for publishing this, because it's a nice short one. Do you.

[00:00:51.880] - Video

Feel overworked, burned out, and not rewarded for your hard work? Some workers are saying, fine, they'll just quietly quit. Quit working so hard without actually resigning from their job. Cbs San Diego Allford shares this new work culture going viral on TikTok and how to deal with it. This term quiet quitting on TikTok doesn't technically mean you're quitting your job. You're just quietly pulling away from your nine to five doing the bare minimum. Older generations may balk at it, but this could wake up some employers and help the workforce.

[00:01:24.340] - Video

I recently learned about this term.

[00:01:26.390] - Video

Called quiet quitting. The term quiet quitting is making quite the comeback since the 1999 movie Office Space, with the hashtag gaining more than 20 million views on TikTok. You're not.

[00:01:36.520] - Video

Outright quitting your job, but you're quitting the idea of going above and beyond.

[00:01:40.550] - Video

You're still performing.

[00:01:41.710] - Video

Your duties.

[00:01:42.340] - Video

But you're no longer subscribing to the hustle culture mentality that.

[00:01:45.710] - Video

Work has to be your life. In American culture, we have what's called an ideal worker norm, which is the best worker is available at all hours. San Diego State University Associate Professor of Psychology, Dr. Lacey Barber, has published her research on telepressure and the workforce. These conversations are happening at all age levels in the organization. The pandemic sparked this new work culture and is putting mental health first, where this quiet quitting means workers are not going the extra mile, not working overtime or checking emails and text after hours. Barbara says before, the office had structure, but now remote work creates fewer boundaries, leading to more burnout and job creep, where you're tasked with more work than you have paid for or not rewarded. Not doing the job with 2-3 people, stuff like that? This comes at a time when Gallup released a poll that shows in 2020, worker engagement went down for the first time in a decade to 36 % and continues to dip to 32 %. Barbara said there needs to be what she calls sustainable engagement amongst coworkers and managers. So now-.

[00:02:49.780] - Dan Paulson

So there's that. Now that took place a year ago. Let me show you what they're talking about now. So let's switch to the article. And here we go. Today, we are talking about the new headache for bosses. Employees aren't quitting. What's the deal, Rich?

[00:03:19.080] - Rich Veltre

I think there's definitely an inflection point, and the question is, who's really out in front of it? I would say that for a while there, the employees really were out in front of making change from the fact that there was an outside influence, call it COVID, call it that whole stay-at-home mentality. They got the taste of being at home, working from home. They started to basically say, We're really in charge here. I think there are some employers out there who have basically said, Well, let's wait for it because the market is going to change yet again when the pandemic is over. And so there is a battling back and forth. And I think there's a lot of parameters that go into it, not just this one doesn't want to work and the employer wants them to work more. I think there's a lot more to it than why this is an overall issue that everybody's having to deal with. But I think we're coming out at the end now where we're going to figure out what's the balance.

[00:04:30.860] - Dan Paulson

So my question here is, is everyone really having to deal with it? Because I know in my personal experience, if I talk to the companies I typically work with, they're still on the other side. They can't keep their employees, they can't find new employees, and turnover for them is a huge issue. People walk out the door constantly and they're trying to figure out ways to to keep people in wages, benefits. They pretty much exhausted all measures. What I did find interesting about this article, as they're talking about things like great resignation, which are all terms that we remember, they really pointed out that a lot of these companies that they talked with, are financial companies in large cities, large financial companies. I think we have here, and I know you skim through this too, but I think Wells Fargo was one of the companies. I think Morgan Stanley was one of the companies. Yep, here, Morgan Stanley. They laid off about 80,000 people, and they're talking about doing more layoffs because they can't get people to leave. What's different in the financial world, do you think, versus some other industries?

[00:05:44.370] - Rich Veltre

Well, I think that one's definitely got a problem with size. I think size is probably the first thing that comes to mind. Morgan Stanley is not a small business. Majority of the United States, majority of... I want to say global, I'm not really sure of that statistic, so I'll be careful how I say that. But I think small business runs a lot and it runs a lot differently than these bigger companies. So when you consider somebody like Morgan Stanley, they laid off 80,000 people and you're sitting there saying, I don't have any companies in my roster that are 80,000 people.

[00:06:23.990] - Dan Paulson

Exactly.

[00:06:24.980] - Rich Veltre

So that right there means there's potentially a disconnect, again, like you said, between somebody like Morgan Stanley who adjusts their headcount because of a whim on a weekend versus the small guy who, like you said, is desperately trying to find the right people to build something that could be 10 employees, it could be 50 employees, it could be 100. Those people, I think, are still struggling. And so I think there's a size factor and then I think there's an industry factor.

[00:06:58.410] - Dan Paulson

Yeah. I also think there's other factors involved in one of the key ones is who's leaving? So who's leaving, who's not? And I believe there is still a bit of this quiet quitting going on. And the people that are leaving are the people that these companies probably don't want to leave. They're the high performers. They're the people doing their jobs extremely well. They're the ones that could be potentially groomed for upward growth. And I don't think this now is industry specific or size specific. I think we're still looking at people that maybe are not as productive and not as employable, sticking around partially because they realize that, and maybe partially because the company lets them do that, while you have people that have more capabilities, more ambition, more go get itgiftiveness, I guess, you could call that a word, they're the ones looking at leaving, and they are the ones walking out the door. So what does all this really apply to? When we talk about the companies that we're talking about, which I would say are more mid tier companies that don't have 80,000 people would be 10 times their staff in most cases, or even more.

[00:08:11.080] - Dan Paulson

How does that affect them? Well, in my opinion, this still is a concern because we haven't taught leaders to be better leaders. So we still see good people walking out the door and maybe underperformers sticking around.

[00:08:27.060] - Rich Veltre

I think there's another question mark there too for me. I mean, somebody like Morgan Stanley, I think years ago when I was working for Price Waterhouse, when you were talking about these numbers, people like Morgan Stanley would bring 80 people in at a clip and they would put them into a training session for this quarter. Then they would be hiring another 80 people for the next quarter. They were big on training. The people that they could bring in were not necessarily MorganStanley, educated, specific, they were going to educate them to be Morgan, Stanley specific. Price Waterhouse did the same thing when I was there. I'm sorry, Price Waterhouse, for using your company name, but I did work for you, so I can do that. I came in. There was 30 of us in one office. There was 30 of us that went through 30 days of training to become Price Waterhouse people. Is there a difference then when theres not able to go out and say, This person seems to have the acumen that we can train them to be a Morgan Stanley person. Price Waterhouse people? Within two years, my 30-person class was at least cut in half.

[00:09:43.430] - Rich Veltre

Within four years, we were down to a handful of people. There were only two people out of there that were even potentially going to reach partner at Price Waterhouse. It was just the way that it was. So the larger company plans for it. The smaller company doesn't necessarily plan for it. They get to the point where they're like, I need another person or I need another two people. So I think the mentality is a little different, too. So I'm more worried about the people like you and I deal with, the smaller companies that are in that mindset that still can't find people, but they needed somebody six months ago. And Morgan Stanley is pulling 80,000 people in so they can fire them in a year. So long winded rant there, but I think the size really does come to me being an issue.

[00:10:31.230] - Dan Paulson

Well, it's a good point because larger companies with bigger payrolls and more resources can definitely play the we'll throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. And as you pointed out, if you were in a group of 30 and by the time you got through that three or four years of training and development, there's only 5-10 of you left, if that many at all, that's something that a larger company can definitely afford. Though I would argue the costs of doing that are extremely high, where, as you pointed out, smaller companies are going to hire what they need when they need it. And I think there needs to be a hybrid in there, because we need to... I always tell my clients, you're always in hiring mode. You might not always hire, but you're always looking for that rock star candidate that culturally is a good fit, that has the skills and acumen that can be of value to your company sooner than later. And as you pointed out, the mentality of a smaller business is I hire when I need people, and that's the only time. Well, when you need somebody, you need to think about that six months to a year before you actually fill that position.

[00:11:39.860] - Dan Paulson

And I don't think most smaller companies have that runway where they can say, okay, I need so and so because the other side of this is if somebody does leave, that's unexpected. Now you've got to fill that hole immediately. And if you don't have a little black book of potential people to fill, that becomes a greater issue. And I think all this ties back to a lot of what we talk about with succession planning, because those margins are so tight and because those employee rosters are also tight as well, you have to do a much better job of taking care of your top performers than you already are. And I will safely say that 99 % of the companies out there, leaders do not do a good enough job to keep their key employees engaged, happy, and wanting to stay where they're at.

[00:12:33.180] - Rich Veltre

Yeah. I have 10 things going through my head on what you just said. So I think that you're a hundred % correct. I think that there is definitely a hybrid here because I think the big companies are a little bit willy-nilly about the whole thing. The smaller companies probably aren't thinking about it the right way. They're still stuck in how they've done it for a long time till now. And I think not only the fact that you need workers, I'm watching entire industries change, like from automation, from legal and economic pressures that come from outside. It's not necessarily even the owner that's causing it. I think automation is one of the biggest things that I see because it's taking away things, like even in my industry or the industry I wasn't dealing with accounting and then into finance. The more automation, the more systems that come in, your need for your worker changes because a lot of your workers are going with the automation, the systems, the computerized. If you move a lot of that over and you're still looking for somebody in plain old accounting, there aren't that many people going to school for accounting because they're going for systems.

[00:13:55.300] - Rich Veltre

They're going for that other thing, which is where the whole markets have gone. I'm a little worried on that side of it too. I want the smaller companies to realize that if they haven't pivoted a little bit with the outside market, you got to do it and you got to look forward a little bit and be out ahead of it like the quarterback, I'm going to throw the ball to where the guy is going to be, not throw the ball where he was before.

[00:14:23.500] - Dan Paulson

Yeah, I think we see that a lot, especially in the trade industries, because for years we have pushed people into four-year degrees. There's nothing wrong with the four-year degree. At the same point, we are shorting ourselves on areas where that automation is not going to be as quick. Let's face it, there is some automation going on in the construction field, but some of that's limited. You still need bodies to lay bricks, put in electrical, do the plumbing work. It's going to be a long time before a robot can just automatically go in and plumb an entire house or apartment building, for example. We've got to do a better job of showing people where the work is available and where the future opportunities for growth are available than just throwing them into college. I don't want to get on too much of a tangent there, but that goes back to these companies, these owners that at some point in the future are going to be looking to this younger generation to take over their businesses to buy their businesses up. I constantly see situations where people, business owners will put all their eggs into one basket.

[00:15:37.080] - Dan Paulson

They'll have one or two key individuals that they want to take over the business, but they never do anything for succession planning. They never do anything to groom that individual to take over the company, nor do they put them on a career track that shows them there's an opportunity to own a greater enterprise than just be a worker. Then you watch those people walk out the door, and now your people are gone, but who's still left? Again, it's the people that are maybe the okay performers or the underperformers, because we haven't done a good enough job on getting them more successful, which means then the people that left are usually left with all the work on their plate, and that's what burns them out. And then that's why they either quiet, quit, or they leave. So now do you see that in the areas, for example, where I know you brought up accounting, and I agree with you. There's not many people left in accounting anymore. Why are people not going that direction?

[00:16:38.020] - Rich Veltre

Oh, we don't have enough time. I can give you the high points. I think that some accounting leadership will turn around and tell you that it comes down to the education piece. They actually passed laws across the United States that if you wanted to get your CPA license, you had to have five years of college, which basically told people that, Oh, why am I going to go into accounting? I got to go to school for five years instead of four. I could be out making money and out in the world. Instead, I'm going to go for a fifth year. I'll wind up with a master's in accounting. But a lot of people get an accounting degree and then wanted to go and get a different business degree when they went to their masters. Then on top of that, another parallel, I've been talking to a lot of people about the parallels between the nursing industry and the accounting industry. And in nursing, you have a little bit of the same because it's a very regulated industry. It's a regulated what you can do to get to the point of getting an RN or being a nursing specialist as well.

[00:17:39.990] - Rich Veltre

And I think a lot of that still comes down to education. There was an article, I think it was in the Wall Street Journal. We're throwing The Wall Street Journal around a lot. But it basically said one of the problems with nursing is they're starting to be able to get more people into the nursing schools, but they have no nursing teachers. They don't have enough people to actually train the nurses. So there's plenty of problems out there that can be attacked and addressed and open up some of this backlog or conflict that's going on between workers and employers and nurses and hospitals, accountants and accounting firms. I mean, it's running the gamut. There's an awful lot of sub-conversations going on inside of each industry, how they're trying to address these employment problems.

[00:18:26.410] - Dan Paulson

My takeaway from all this is for most businesses, the situation of employees not leaving is probably less of a problem than it is for super large corporate conglomerations that have billions of dollars in their in their payroll budget. At the same time, they do need to watch who they hire, when they hire, what they hire, and who they keep, because you still might have the problem where certain people will not leave and they could be the ones causing your good people to go. So you have to consider that. How about you?

[00:19:02.630] - Rich Veltre

Yeah, my takeaway is also that I think this is going to be going on for a while. I think there definitely has to be some movement in things we're probably not even thinking about automation; creative employment, I'll call it, finding ways to make an employee happy, which we started to talk about. But they have to be real. There has to be real balance. There has to be some degree of what's the middle ground. I think once we start to see some of that, then maybe we can really have that 50,000 foot, big picture conversation. But if we're just going to focus on little segments of it, I think we lose the ability to actually solve the problem. I think the problem is just going to continue to go on until somebody comes up with something that's just way out ahead of the curve.

[00:19:54.990] - Dan Paulson

Hey, that's what keeps us going and keeps us employed, right? Rich, if they need to get a hold of you to fix the financial side of all this, what's the best way to do it?

[00:20:05.390] - Rich Veltre

Email is the best at rveltre@veltregroup.com.

[00:20:08.960] - Dan Paulson

And you can get a hold of me at danpaulsonlet'sgo.com. If you're interested in this video, please like, subscribe and always be sure to share it. But you can also catch past episodes and sign up for future ones if you visit booksinbiz. Com. That's B-O-O-K-S, letter N, B-I-Z. Com. And we would love to see you on future episodes. Rich, thanks again for all your time. And we will chat with you next week. Sounds good.

[00:20:35.270] - Rich Veltre

Sounds good.

WSJ Article Link:

https://apple.news/AARs8Fx-9Qs63GpdXmPIakA

The New Headache for Bosses: Employees Aren’t Quitting