Finding Employees In Construction - Prodigal Building Systems

[00:00:01.02] - Alice

Welcome to Books in the Biz, a podcast that looks at both the financial and operational sides of success. Please welcome our hosts, Dan Paulson and Richard Veltre. Dan is the CEO of Envision Development International, and he works with leaders to increase sales and profits through great cultures with solid operations. Rich is CEO of the Veltre Group and a financial strategist working with companies to manage their money more effectively. Now on to the podcast.

[00:00:32.23] - Dan Paulson

Thank you, Alice. She always welcome us in such a gracious way. Clee, how are you doing?

[00:00:40.14] - Cle Gray

I am doing fantastic. How are you doing, Dan?

[00:00:42.18] - Dan Paulson

Good, good. Rich, how are you doing?

[00:00:45.09] - Rich Veltre

Thumbs up.

[00:00:46.04] - Dan Paulson

Thumbs up. All right. The gang's all here. So as you can see, our guest today has much better scenery than we do. I guess that's one of the perks of being a contractor, is you get to be outside a little bit more often. But I wanted to Welcome, Clee gray. Clee from Prodical Building Systems. How are you doing?

[00:01:04.23] - Cle Gray

I'm doing fantastic. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:07.09] - Dan Paulson

We are happy to have you here because you and I, well, we've talked a couple of times. Rich has not met you yet, but I love the fact that you're doing some interesting things in your new business, and I guess we'll talk about that a little bit later. But why don't you explain a little bit about what brought prodigal building systems to be?

[00:01:30.20] - Cle Gray

So the prodigal building systems came to be because of a need to recruit the unrecruited, to reach out to those communities, mainly BIPOC communities and those others who are not overly recruited. And what we do is we go into those situations and we try to get people into the trades. Our goal is to get more and more BIPOC and lower income people into the trades so that they can, one, earn a great living, and two, contribute.

[00:02:08.24] - Dan Paulson

Why do you suppose that demographic hasn't been targeted? I mean, are there assumptions or stereotypes or what's really going on where they're not even looked at as far as the trades go?

[00:02:24.20] - Cle Gray

It's hard to put a thumb on it, but what I like to say is that it's one of those things where college is being pushed more in those communities than it is elsewhere, maybe. I'm thinking that the best way to get a leg up is to go to college. Then you'll see a lot of people start college, don't finish college, and then they're in a bad position, and they don't think about the trades, where a lot of people don't have to necessarily go to college to actually earn sometimes better money than those that You're speaking my language.

[00:03:02.13] - Dan Paulson

Actually, we've had several discussions on this podcast about that exact situation. Now, give me a little bit more about your background. So what got you down this road? Obviously, you've been in construction for a while, but tell me a little bit more about that.

[00:03:19.00] - Cle Gray

Okay. Well, I actually started very young with my dad. My dad bought a lot of properties in the Milwaukee area, and I was his help. Keep labor is an understatement, right? So as we're looking at that, growing and going into it, I lost my dad fairly early when I was a teen. From there, in high school and that went into back in the '80s when Operation Fresh Start was just going. It was part of a school program for those that were finding themselves in that in between space. We called it a school within a school, right? You're trying to figure out something for these kids that school may not be their strongest suit. And it just so happened for me. It put me in a position where I loved what I was doing. And then fast forward, became an adult, got into the trade, starting new construction, a lot of new construction, residential, commercial, one of the first companies that I worked with. He was a Carpenter out of California, and I applied for a Carpenter's helper's position. He taught me a lot. He taught me about the word curmudgeon, which was my first time here, and I thought it was a square word, so I thought it was very cool.

[00:04:50.26] - Cle Gray

But he taught me that word. Then he also taught me a lot on the trades. Then there was another After that, I went to another contractor that was focused more on commercial work. I really cut my teeth there. Here I am. I've worked with some other contractors, some of the biggest in the state, all across the United States doing stuff for people. So it's been a journey. I can tell you that. And even to this day, I still tell people, in fact, I use the line, and you've heard me say this before, dad, I'm a carpenter masquerading as a CEO. And it's just one of those reverts that I fall back into. I'm much more comfortable with a hammer in my hand than I am with a keyboard.

[00:05:42.08] - Dan Paulson

Well, I think you're a lot like a lot of other construction business owners that would rather be swinging the hammer than maybe doing some of the CEO stuff. But why don't you share a little bit about what you've seen as the transition from the guy who is putting up the walls, installing the doors and the windows and whatnot, to now the guy who's got to tell other people to do it.

[00:06:03.25] - Cle Gray

Yeah, that transition, because of some of the companies that I worked for, I was able to actually harness a lot of the knowledge gained there. In bigger companies, you're able to move up a little bit. But you have with someone who's interested in supervision, you get all the opportunity that you can handle. So there is a lot of that. But there's also a lot in it when you're guiding people and it's your money that's on the table. It's not the company's money. It's one of those things. And being able to deal with different, I want to say, I'm sorry, behavioral types, I guess, for lack of a better word. I'm having a I'm just losing it right now. But when we're talking about it, when you're dealing with these different types of people, you have to handle different people differently. And then there's the new way, I want to say it's a nouveau thing where we're dealing with a lot of people who have... I've seen it over the last, I want to say last 10 years with my coaching and everything else, that a majority of the kids that I'm getting now have some type of attention deficit disorder or some other cognitive disability that's not always readily diagnosed.

[00:07:44.02] - Cle Gray

So dealing It becomes a whole different monster that you're dealing with. And sometimes navigating it is tricky. But one thing that I found out about this industry is that this industry was made for people with ADHD.

[00:07:59.21] - Dan Paulson

It becomes a perfect transition.

[00:08:03.23] - Cle Gray

But my personal growth in it has been tremendous, especially in the last year. I want to say my growth in the last year has been huge What led to that growth?

[00:08:17.06] - Dan Paulson

So if you say a lot's changed in the last 12 months, what really has changed?

[00:08:22.09] - Cle Gray

My approach to dealing with situations, my approach to dealing with people. Coming into it, I had a chip on my shoulder. I didn't want anybody to take advantage of my guys. I'm not going to let you take advantage of us. We're not going to be the little guys that you can just stomp on And what I've learned in the last year is that I have support. I have a great support system, whether it's through ABC, Associated Builders and Contractors, or through community members. So I'm able to navigate a little bit better knowing that I have those people behind me when I come. So now that chip on my shoulder is no longer a chip. It's more of a S on my chest.

[00:09:17.07] - Dan Paulson

Very good. Rich, you actually come from a construction background. What questions do you have?

[00:09:25.00] - Rich Veltre

Well, I come from a construction family. So let's be I understand how to use a hammer, but I watched the family do a lot. I had at least three roofers in my family. I had a general contractor in my family, uncles galore. This was what they... They came out of the Navy, and they went into the trades. So they started their own businesses in different areas. Most of them in New Jersey, one of them in Massachusetts. So It used to be very easy. They used to always seem to have a flow of people that were coming up that they were able to figure out, Well, that one's going into the trade, so they're going to come work for me, almost like an apprenticeship. And now it seems like it's gone a different direction. And whether that's... I'm curious to your thoughts of, is that the shortage of people that are going into it that might be reflecting that? Is Is it a lack of understanding that they could go into it? Nowadays, kids love their video games, right? So they all want to be video game programmers. So they don't get that only one % of you is going to make the NFL.

[00:10:44.04] - Rich Veltre

Only one % of you is really going to be a notable computer programmer. So what's plan B? So that's my curious question. Do you feel like the shortage is coming from just a lack of understanding or maybe even a lack of promotion, right? In schools, I don't know.

[00:11:04.23] - Cle Gray

Well, I can honestly say that I want to say that it's probably a little bit of both in that there's the lack of promotion and there's also the lack of people understanding exactly how much you actually make, whether you're a Carpenter, whether you're electrical, whether you're plumbing or even solar. All of these things make really good money, even starting off. I mean, a lot of people, they'll take a sales job where they might start off before their commission kicks in. They might make what? Five, $600 a week, $700 a weekend, but the promise is always there. Oh, you can make up to 10 grand a week or what have you. So they'll chase that, and some people even go to school for that. And then they'll become disgruntled. Instead of thinking the slower pace, I know one reason why a lot of people shied away from carpentry apprenticeships was that it took too long. People will say, Oh, you It takes seven years for you to be a journeyman carpenter. It takes this and that. Well, it takes you that long because of the fact that you're probably going to be, during that span, you might be at three or four jobs.

[00:12:25.01] - Cle Gray

And this is in commercial jobs during that span that are two years in length a piece, right? So you're going to be doing one or two things during that entire job, but you're going to be very good at what you do. But you're also going to learn. They've sped that up now just because of the way that building, I think that with building technology and the like, we're now speeding up our processes as far as getting buildings enclosed, our framing processes, processes that used to take years, now take us months. Processes that we used to count on to do... I'll give you an example. People say, Oh, well, you got 28 units to trim out, put cabinets, base case, and put doors on. It used to be where at one point, if you get one or two units done a day, you were great. Now you're looking at trying to get 5 to 10 done a day and keep on moving. So how do you do that? You create more systems and implement more systems. And the faster that you can master a system, the more money you make. And I think that the fact that people miss that portion of it and miss out on a lot, it boggles my mind even on how far they'll go.

[00:13:56.18] - Dan Paulson

Now, go ahead.

[00:13:58.23] - Rich Veltre

When you say system, Are you talking about process or are you talking about robotics or other tools, technology?

[00:14:07.14] - Cle Gray

As I'm talking about system, I am literally talking about the processes. So when we're talking about, it used to be we would stick frame all of these new high rises and everything else. We would sit there, stick frame them. If we got a quarter of one side done in a two or three day span, that used to be considered good. Now we're looking at, oh, we got to have all the exterior walls set, interior demisers and interior walls all set within a week so that that way we can get our floor systems on. Then we got a few days to get the floor systems on to begin the process all over again. That comes from systematizing panelizations, doing floor cassettes and roof trusses, stuff like that. It becomes more on how fast can you put together a Lego building, just understanding that process because you can always come back. If you can keep the speed going around, you can always come back and tweak anything that you need to tweak when you have a little bit of time. So that is what I'm talking about, the process. The process is faster. Therefore, that sped up the apprenticeships.

[00:15:27.03] - Cle Gray

So now the apprenticeships aren't as long.

[00:15:30.19] - Rich Veltre

Okay.

[00:15:32.08] - Dan Paulson

Could you go into a little more detail on that, Cee? Because that's, I think, one of the key pivots in your company, is really dealing with that panelization and also using that as the catalyst to build your academy and get these people caught up in the trades.

[00:15:50.25] - Cle Gray

Right. Well, the cool part about doing wall panels and wall panel systems by hand, is the fact that you can train more people to become very proficient with nail guns and hammers in a frame and atmosphere, in a controlled atmosphere. I mean, it's what, 65, 70 degrees inside the factory at all times, right? You don't change. The sun doesn't change it. The rain doesn't change it. A thunderstorm doesn't change it. Nothing changes it because of the fact that you're in a controlled environment. Now, look back in the day when we used to learn how to frame out in the field. If If you were slow doing it, you may get put off somewhere else, so it might take you a little longer to become a good framer. With this process that we're doing now with the wall panelizations and that you're able to speed up your processes, you're able to learn fast because you're doing it by repetition. You're putting together, let's call it a one month span. You've probably done more framing than some carpenters have done in their career. And so when you're thinking about it in those terms, you're like, Oh, wow.

[00:17:07.16] - Cle Gray

Not only by the time you come out of that factory setting, some people obviously want to stay in that factory setting because they thrive in it. Some people want more or want something different. So when you're looking at those people who want something, something more, something different, that's who you offer the academy to. That's who you... Hey, look, I tell you what, I got these 12... There's 12 different aspects of carpentry that we're going to teach you here. Why don't you start learning that while you're here? So you're earning here, but you're also learning on one end. And I think that that part of it is what actually helps us right now.

[00:17:44.14] - Dan Paulson

Yeah. So what are the 12 aspects that they have to learn through the academy?

[00:17:49.26] - Cle Gray

So through the academy, you're going to learn introductory to carpentry. You're going to learn framing. You're going to learn finishing. You're going to learn cabinet. You're going to learn cabin tree. Two different versions of cabin. So you learn the cabinry of installation, which is very key to a lot of things. But you're also going to learn cabinry on how to build cabinets, on what makes cabinets stick. You also learn flooring. You learn carpeting. You learn tiling, we learn concrete finishing, concrete formwork, concrete burnishing. I I know I'm leaving a couple of things off. I should have had my notes here in front of me, and I did not. That's not me. When we're talking about some of the other things going on, we're talking about putting doors. Doors and hardware is another aspect of it. Also, acoustical ceiling tiles because acoustical ceiling framing and the light used to fit under carpentry, along with drywall and drywall finishing. Now, we touch just because there's a lot to go into in six months, what we do is we pretty much expose the academy to it and then try to give them a job that's a production-type job where it has to be done right afterwards.

[00:19:13.11] - Cle Gray

So that that way they're learning and then they go right into earning a little bit and figuring out what it takes. That it's not as easy as you think because you could be in a classroom and learning like I give it to you, our ACT. When they learn the ACT ceilings, The classroom work was great. Oh, yeah, this is easy. We can handle this. Okay. Then you get them in the field, they realize it's a little bit different out here than just being able to make sure. Yeah, you got to set your lasers up just right. You got to make sure that your ties are correct. Then when you step back, you might be doing a wave. Now you got to figure out why. Now, there's a lot of that, and I love that portion of it because of the fact it gives them their problem solving skills as well. And we also do Painting as well. So painting is thrown in there as well.

[00:20:04.01] - Dan Paulson

Wow. Now, how often do construction workers typically do all those facets of the job? Because a number of things you named off, I'm going, well, typically that would go to Mason, or that would go to just somebody who focuses on finish carpentry. Do you really get that involved in all those aspects anymore, or is this just to, like you said, give them a taste? And then once they get out in the field and start working with somebody else, then start to specialize in something.

[00:20:32.11] - Cle Gray

Exactly. And that's exactly what it is. It's to get people... You want to find out what I want to do is, what we try to do with the academy is we want to see what people are going to be good at or what interests them. With the newer, I don't want to say millennial or Z, Y, whatever, a generation, you have to... It's almost like we have to cater to what they want. And how do they learn? Because they learn differently than I learn. And the consequences were a lot differently from their raising their mind. However, you want to give them the best foot forward that you can give them. So with us doing that, you got framing. Framing is going to be done within the wall component system. So therefore, you're going to have a very good grounding in frame, no matter what. Now, the Other aspects of it, let's see how do you like it. I had one guy, he felt that he struggled as a framer, but he found that he loved the ACT. Even though he's still in the academy, he was asking me, Hey, are we doing any more acoustical ceiling tile job?

[00:21:47.19] - Cle Gray

No, you only do it for that portion of it. Now, when it comes time, when he's ready to graduate and I'm ready to push him off to somebody else, well, I tell you what, if I don't do enough acoustical ceiling tiles for you, I know somebody who does. I know a couple of companies that that's all that they do day in, day out. If that's what you want to do, Hey, let's push you toward that way. The concrete, I found out, well, we actually stumbled upon the concrete polishing and and Epoxy flooring, and it was a great marriage. I found that our guys were really engaged in it. Some of our guys actually thought that they might prefer doing that than anything else. It's one of those things that you can sit up here. For me, there's a creative aspect to it as well. But to me, being a Carpenter and dealing with the structurals and the finishes and everything else, that to me is what resonates with me. However, with someone else, they may just want, Hey, you know what? I can get this floor looking great, and I'm fantastic, and I can walk away.

[00:22:56.28] - Cle Gray

It's a one-day job, and I can go, and I can go away. So I want them to be exposed to all of that. And I want them to know that at least somebody cared enough to expose them to it so that when it comes time for them to decide, Hey, you know what? I want to be in concrete. Oh, I want to be a concrete furniture or I want to be a polisher, grinder, burnisher. Whatever you choose to do, we want you to at least be exposed to it so that that way you will have it. And with the carpentry aspect of it, whether you're a plumber, HVAC or electrician, having a little bit of a carpentry background doesn't hurt at all.

[00:23:35.16] - Dan Paulson

Nice. How long does it take to qualify for the academy? How many weeks or months do they have to work with you before you push them that direction?

[00:23:44.25] - Cle Gray

So right now, I think someone can honestly know where they're at within a week or two. And if they want to do an academy and they know that a cohort is coming up, hey, come on in We have we have room for you or we have room on the next cohort, however, whichever way it works out, and it gives us an opportunity to see where they're at.

[00:24:11.09] - Dan Paulson

How many cohorts do you have in a year?

[00:24:13.17] - Cle Gray

Right now, we're looking at doing between 2-3.

[00:24:17.29] - Dan Paulson

Okay. So about every four months, roughly?

[00:24:21.12] - Cle Gray

Yeah.

[00:24:22.02] - Dan Paulson

Got it. Cool.

[00:24:24.25] - Rich Veltre

I think it's great. That's adding a training that you weren't thinking about. You And it resonates with me that that's going to help. Because right now, what I'm seeing, and I think Dan and I have talked about it a thousand times, probably, where there's a disconnect between the employers and the employees. Or should I say, applicants and employers, they're not talking to each other. They're just not finding each other. And I think that's going to become just a bigger and bigger problem. And I think filling in the option of having the trades as a successful path. And again, not necessarily that you want to go to college. Look, I might even still be one of those guys that's saying, look, go into the trades, but get a business degree at night or something that helps you a little bit. That way you can lead towards not just the trades, but eventually owning the business as opposed to just working in it. So I don't know. But I can see the training being a key factor. And I'm curious curious if that resonates to other avenues as well. Nursing, accounting, all these other places that are complaining they can't find the people.

[00:25:39.14] - Rich Veltre

Maybe this is a solution that can actually translate to other industries.

[00:25:44.11] - Cle Gray

Yeah.

[00:25:46.25] - Dan Paulson

Yeah, I think there's definitely possibilities with that. Again, different technology, different needs. But who knows? I do think that what CLE is doing here is really a pretty It's a unique approach that a lot of people don't think about taking. So how big is a cohort? When you say, are we talking about half dozen people, dozen people? How many are involved?

[00:26:10.10] - Cle Gray

An ideal cohort is between six to eight people. We can go down. I mean, we found that we can go down to four. Four is a very manageable size as well. I think that we want to stay between six and eight per cohort.

[00:26:33.05] - Dan Paulson

Well, that's still adding anywhere from what? Eighteen to 24 potential new construction workers within the course of 12 months. That's pretty good.

[00:26:44.16] - Cle Gray

Yeah Well, that's what we want. I mean, when people say, oh, they're just not there aren't enough carpenters or they're not enough this and that. And I can attest to that. I mean, we as business owners, we're looking for them constantly. It's like you got to constantly have an ad going, even when you don't need anyone going just so you can get applicants into your Rolodex and then go from there. Or you're working with, and I don't mind it, but you're working with a temp agency to bring in employees. And even they're having issues getting enough people. They got people placed, but then they're still short on finding people for everybody because everybody's looking for somebody.

[00:27:29.28] - Dan Paulson

Exactly. And you're speaking my language here. Rich, how many times have I said you always have to be hiring? You cannot stop, even when you think you have the right people. You got to keep doing it. So we're on the same page there. As you've transitioned from construction worker to business owner, and now as you look forward to, you're growing this panel building company, you're growing the academy, what are some of the biggest challenges you see facing maybe outside of hiring? We all know that's a big one, but what else is out there?

[00:28:08.03] - Cle Gray

Well, I think one of the biggest, the next biggest would be retention, just retaining people. Because this is a demanding job. So a lot of people think that, oh, this is easy. This is like any other startup or any other company that you come into. There's a reason why it's not just high turnover in the There's a high turnover in the back office as well. In the front office, front, back, C-suite. There's turnover everywhere because there's a tremendous amount of stress. You have to be, I think, being in the trades first set you up to be able to withstand some of the things that happen behind closed doors that you don't necessarily see out in the field. It is that mentality that I that I bring to my position now. What they say, there's an acceptable level of failure. You just have to be able to accept it. Everything's not going to go the way that you planned it. What is your plan if it doesn't go that way? That's just part of it. You're always planning, you're always plotting. I think a lot of people don't understand that aspect of and burn themselves out.

[00:29:32.07] - Cle Gray

They come in because of the fact that a business or what have you, they can think on, Oh, I can do that. Yeah, I fit all those qualifications. Yes, you do. But then when you get into the thick of it, it's a little bit different.

[00:29:48.11] - Dan Paulson

That's what changes everything, is that whole retention piece. I do agree with you. There's so many moving parts when it comes to construction, and that combined with deadlines and everything else, it can be a very stressful position. So it is a bit of a challenge. Rich, do you have any other questions that you have on top of mind here?

[00:30:09.03] - Rich Veltre

No, I think he answered everything. I'm pretty satisfied over here.

[00:30:14.14] - Dan Paulson

Well, I don't know if we can help you out in New Jersey get employees, but Clee, what's the best way to get a hold of you if somebody wants to reach out? Maybe they listen to this and say, hey, I want to try this academy he's got going on, or maybe I'm in Milwaukee and I want to become one of those panel builders that works in a factory instead of out in the cold.

[00:30:40.04] - Cle Gray

The best way to do it is by sending me an email. It's cle@prodigalsys.us.

[00:30:50.01] - Dan Paulson

Excellent. And we will definitely get that printed out so people can see it in the notes on the podcast. Rich, how did they get a hold of you?

[00:30:59.20] - Rich Veltre

It's always Same way. Send me an email, rveltre@veltregroup.com.

[00:31:05.08] - Dan Paulson

And my email is too damn long. So just go to danpaulsonletsgo.com. There's a form on there you can fill out that'll get a hold of me. And Clee, thank you so much for joining us. I know it's a beautiful day out there, and it's very hard for a construction worker to sit still when they could be swinging a hammer or out building something. So we really appreciate your time on this.

[00:31:24.27] - Cle Gray

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

[00:31:26.14] - Dan Paulson

All right, guys. Take care and we will see you again next week.

[00:31:29.25] - Cle Gray

All Thank you. Bye.