Tax Delays are Costing You!

"The more reactive you are, the more business hurts." - Rich Veltre

Now that 2023 taxes are finally done, what did you learn?

How did you do?

How much did it hurt?

We all want to avoid paying as much tax as we can legally. That means better planning up front. Deferring to later times in the year also can get you into a situation which may have you writing bigger checks. In this episode of Books & The Biz, we will talk about steps you need to take to position yourself for the best possible tax situation when closing out 2024 and going into 2025.

[00:00:41.27] - Alice

Hello. Welcome to Books in the Biz, a podcast that looks at both the financial and operational sides of success. Please welcome our hosts, Dan Paulson and Richard Veltre. Dan is the CEO of Envision Development International, and he works with leaders to increase sales and profits through great cultures with solid operations. Rich is CEO of the Veltre Group and a financial strategist working with companies to manage their money more effectively.

[00:01:09.21] - Dan Paulson

Now on Hey, here we are. Welcome to Books and the Biz. Let me know what you think of our new layout. Rich, what do you think?

[00:01:23.23] - Rich Veltre

I like it. And Alice is there.

[00:01:27.08] - Dan Paulson

So Alice is- Alice is there. Alice is there for us all the time. Like clockwork.

[00:01:32.14] - Rich Veltre

Like clockwork.

[00:01:34.14] - Dan Paulson

Well, good. Hey, tax season is officially done for you. How does that make you feel? For those of you who can't see, Rich is jumping up and down in a seat and cheering.

[00:01:47.15] - Rich Veltre

Yeah. No, Rich is tired. I bet. So this is about as big a jump as you're going to get today. No, this year wasn't bad, actually. I didn't have a lot of overflow, like a lot of leftover. So for me, it wasn't too bad, but I think for my clients, it might have been a little bit.

[00:02:10.11] - Dan Paulson

So do you see that depending upon how things are going, do Are some years better than others? So let's say we're in a bad economy, do people tend to push it off more? Or if we're in a good economy, do people want to hang on to their money longer? Or what is it that takes people up to October 15th?

[00:02:30.10] - Rich Veltre

Well, I think the thing people need to understand is that the tax deadline extension is for filing, not for money. So the money part, you needed to have your money paid in by April anyway. Actually, you really had to have your money paid in by January. For 2023, you have until January 15th of 2024 to pay in what you believe you're going to owe. At And by extension time, people then will write a check, but usually the IRS is charging you some degree of interest from January to April. And if you still owe money in October, the interest continues to tick. So you're going to get down to October 15th, then it's not going to be the same number. It's going to be higher, because now you're paying the interest from April to October. So the thing is, the filing It becomes somewhat of the issue, especially for people that are invested in partnerships or S-corps, something that the company wasn't ready. The company had to wait for some other information. So you can't file your tax return until you actually have the information from the next level up from whoever you're invested in. So most of the guys that are sitting around waiting until October have partnerships or some degree of a K-1 that they have to get back from those partnerships.

[00:04:02.15] - Rich Veltre

So you're sitting around waiting for the ability to file. You've probably estimated how much income is coming out of that number or whether there's a loss coming out of that number. So when you filed your taxes back in January or did your extension in April, you should have had some idea of what the numbers would be. It becomes a bit of a problem when your estimate was off, and you get to October or you get to September, and suddenly, the the nowadays, after the last few years, the partnerships have to file by September 15th, giving you a month to deal with, I got my number, and now I can go do my individual taxes. So at October 15th, it gets a little hairy when somebody comes in and says, oh, my number changed. And then- It's usually never for the better.

[00:04:55.05] - Dan Paulson

It's not like you're going to get money.

[00:04:56.10] - Rich Veltre

Yeah, it's not usually for the better. You would hope that if the partnership gave you an estimate back in April, you would hope that it wouldn't change much. But a lot of times they're going on extension because they're looking at something that they're just not sure of. So they don't feel comfortable filing the tax return and they want to wait. So you wind up with a changed estimate.

[00:05:26.04] - Dan Paulson

Well, today's episode is really to talk about the tax filings and what we can do, maybe what we can do differently, because nobody likes a surprise. And I can't think of a single person I know that at some point in their tax life hasn't had something pop up that put them on edge as far as what they thought they owed. How do we become more proactive, I guess? You're talking about where companies file extensions, they then push it to September 15th. If it's a small company, a sole proprietorship, or maybe a company of 10 or less employees or one owner, that September 15th date is usually good for the October 15th date, because there isn't a lot of partners to distribute tax information to. But I would guess for bigger companies, this becomes a bit more of a challenge. And if you're just one of the partners and you're constantly waiting for your returns to get done, how do you eliminate that pinch?

[00:06:33.27] - Rich Veltre

I think we come back a little bit, and I'm going to get in my soapbox for a second. But I think communication, we talk about communication all the time. And I think communication has always been the fail because I think information flows. You can go and you can actually get the information that you need. So being somewhat involved and getting an the idea of what the company is doing, if you're invested in it and you're waiting on a K1, you have the right to know what's the number going to be. So the smaller companies are a little bit different because really, there's a lot more control there. So they should know, but they tend to not believe that they know. They think that... Or they look at the number, and I said this to someone else the other day. I said, they look at the number and they believe it's going to change. If they psychically will it, they're going to look at it, and it's going to change. No, it's not going to change. It's probably relatively close unless you have to go way far out and find some other answer, because for the most part, the numbers are what they are.

[00:07:44.23] - Rich Veltre

You took the money in, you put it in your pocket, and you used it. So you can't say, Well, no, I never got it. So I think there's a certain amount of people need to understand from the larger standpoint, communicate and understand what numbers are coming in. Be proactive, not reactive. Way too many people are reactive. They don't know what's coming. They don't have an idea what the total is. And then when the total comes, they go, oh, nobody told me. No, you know. So I think being proactive with it and not allowing the reactive to take over is really what I think is going to come out of this conversation. I think that's what I want people to know.

[00:08:33.14] - Dan Paulson

Yeah. I've had a situation where the accountant I had at the time actually filed an extension for me, not because I wanted them to, because as far as I was concerned, I thought everything was done. But they chose to file an extension for me. Is there any reason why they would do that? I can think of one reason, and it's not something the accountant should be doing.

[00:09:00.10] - Rich Veltre

I only have one reason. And I'm going to go into saving the accountant mode, right? I'm going to be the big protector, big brother protector. Protect your own.

[00:09:12.05] - Dan Paulson

Protect your own.

[00:09:14.26] - Rich Veltre

So I've worked at a number of different firms over the course of my career. And one thing I would say is, you don't want to get to April 16th and realize you missed an extension. Because then you have to call somebody and say, oh, by the way, all that work we were going to do over the next six months till we actually had a filing deadline, we missed your deadline. So now you have a late filing penalty. So a lot of times, what I saw is a lot of accountants shifted to the point of putting people on extension for the company now, for the company, putting people on extension because generally, the companies don't pay taxes themselves. So you can file most LLC partnership, S Corp tax returns. You can file the extensions. You're not saying anything about what their income is. You're saying nothing. You're basically saying the income is zero because any income it has flows through to the individual. So I've seen people that have come to me and said, we want you to do the tax return. So we go and we do the tax return, and we try to file the extension at the end.

[00:10:28.07] - Rich Veltre

And we realize that we're getting bounced out of the e-file system because someone already filed the extension. So by nature, they would go and actually put people on extension. Therefore, no one will get missed. They already have confirmation that the filing was done, that the extension is on. So their deadline is no longer April 15th or March 15th. It's now September or October. So from that standpoint, I completely understand. Now, how someone can go and file an individual extension Unless they're clearly sure that that person is getting a refund, that I can't defend. So if you're really clear that someone's getting a refund and you're worried about the deadline and not getting the answer you need in order to file, go ahead and put that person on extension because you're going to reflect the extension as having no tax liability whatsoever. The problem is you can't really file somebody's extension if they owe money. And then And that person says, but I didn't write the check. And now you got a problem.

[00:11:34.23] - Dan Paulson

Yeah. And I think with me, it was actually with the business that they had filed the extension. And my interpretation of all that was, well, it's tax season. Everything's coming in. Everything has a deadline. And you don't have time to finish stuff up. Because we both talked about there's a shortage of accountants, too. So you don't have enough people and you have two may tax returns to do. Your escape route is file the extension.

[00:12:02.19] - Rich Veltre

Yeah. So I could do that. Like I said in the beginning, I was being Big Brother Protector. If it's a different day and I'm not Big Brother protector that day, I would have said exactly what you just said. You don't have enough people.

[00:12:16.11] - Dan Paulson

That's at least how it looks on the receiver side. Yeah.

[00:12:19.22] - Rich Veltre

You don't have enough people, but you're going to charge me as if you do. So I just went from Big Brother Protector to I have a bullseye on the back of my head.

[00:12:35.21] - Dan Paulson

Well, I think you're pretty safe. Okay. How do we help people get to the point where they're more proactive on this? We've talked about tax planning in the past. In my mind, from the operations side, filing extensions should be minimal at best. At all costs, you should try to have all the taxes done by mid-March, so that way you can pay your taxes in April, and Life is good. Move on and worry about next year. Because I look at it and say, well, if we're still dealing with stuff in September and October, we're already planning for the following year. And if we don't know what our tax situation is for the previous year, we're in the current year, we're almost done with that. We now have to figure out in the next two months, per se, what's going to happen by the end of this year. And I think that happens all too often.

[00:13:25.18] - Rich Veltre

It really does. It happens way too often that everybody's just dealing with the year before. And I had a big client that actually one day we actually realized the extent we were always paying the taxes when we got to... We always had money due when we got to September, October. So we would pay the taxes, but then we would add the interest on. And up until maybe two years ago, it didn't matter all that much because the interest rate was only 6 %. So to pay that 6 % didn't necessarily matter to some of these people because they were making more money by having the business utilize the capital rather than going and borrowing from a bank or doing something else. They had money in their pocket, and they just would wait, and they'd pay the taxes later. So come to a year or two ago, and all of a sudden, interest rates go back up. It's no longer 6 % because the IRS followed what everybody else did. And suddenly, it's 12, 13 And all of a sudden, those numbers became bigger. And everybody said, well, what's that number? Because before it was small.

[00:14:38.02] - Rich Veltre

They didn't care. It didn't register. But now the number got bigger two, three times what it was before.

[00:14:43.28] - Dan Paulson

And they said, well- If you can earn 12 % and pay 6 %, you're still six % up. If you're paying 12 % and you're earning 12 %, now you're break even at best. That check hurts a lot more to write.

[00:14:55.05] - Rich Veltre

Yeah. So we wound up getting more proactive and saying, well, this is why we were always saying that this is what you owed. But we ignored the estimated payments because we said we could pay it at the end. It's only 6 %. What do we care? Well, it's not that what do we care, but it was an immaterial number. It wasn't enough to say, I'm going to pay my accountant to come up with better estimates. I'm going to pay these other fees. By the time you added it up, you weren't getting any benefit out of it. You might as well have just said, Pay the 6 %. It's less than I would have to pay to to go through the other exercise. But like I said, now it's flipped. So in order to do that, he had to start writing checks earlier. So it almost became like he had to double up what he was paying, but it got him back into a proactive state, where he was way ahead, and now we're dealing with overpayments and not dealing with the added interest expense.

[00:15:55.09] - Dan Paulson

Sure.

[00:15:56.16] - Rich Veltre

Unfortunately, take that example and push it to everyone to a certain extent, in order to make people proactive as opposed to reactive, I have to get on and be the guy who says, No, just go ahead, write that check. Nobody likes that. But it's the answer. It really becomes the answer that in order to get to be proactive as opposed to reactive, then you need to go out, get the numbers, understand them, and figure out a plan for how you're going to catch up and get yourself ahead. So be Be prepared for a little bit of a sting, but I think it's the right answer, especially for people who really want to be proactive about how do I take care of my business going forward and realizing that small businesses, like most of the people who are listening to our podcast, You are the guys that this is money in your pocket. You really need to be in control of it, because if all these things that we talk about where money is getting tighter, things are getting more expensive. We're talking about all these things that people need to do in order to really run a business that's efficient and maybe leading towards being able to sell it.

[00:17:09.15] - Rich Veltre

You want to have these things under control because the surprise will cost you more than what it will cost you to actually be proactive?

[00:17:18.05] - Dan Paulson

Exactly. Exactly. So with that thought in mind, most business owners, again, small to medium, I find a vast majority of accounts do not do really any tax planning. They'll talk with you maybe in November, December, which in some cases is fine if it's a small business and the owner keeps up and knows what he or she owns. But you start getting into a business, say, a manufacturing facility that's doing seven to $10 million a year, $20 million a year. They got anywhere between 20 to 100 employees. There's a lot more complexity to it. I don't think the accountant just sending you your financial statements each month and then talking with you once a year is probably enough.

[00:18:04.14] - Rich Veltre

I think that, and again, I don't like to be the guy that puts down the accountant, but accounting firms- I don't think this is putting down the accountant thing.

[00:18:13.12] - Dan Paulson

I think if you look at most accounting services, the way they bill it, they bill it towards preparing taxes. In some cases, they're doing maybe some bookkeeping work. I don't hear a lot of accountants setting up a situation where they are actually doing on top of all that some degree of tax planning with them, meeting once a quarter or anything like that. I just don't see it happening. It's not to throw the accountants under the bus. If anything, hint, hint, accountants, this is something you should be building into what you're doing. But I just don't see that happening. I see where the owner says, well, here's my tax account. Well, what does he do for you? He prepares my taxes each year. Well, what else does he do? Well, maybe he does my bookkeeping or she does my bookkeeping. Now you have no It's a connection to the numbers, because if you're just passing off your receipts and your invoices to somebody else, and they're keying all that stuff in, and you just get your PnLs, which, by the way, most people never look at, if they get them at all, if they get them once a month.

[00:19:13.02] - Dan Paulson

I just don't see Where the owner really understands or knows that they should probably be doing more to prepare. And I know a lot of very intelligent people who are business owners who are fairly successful to highly They're really successful. And when I ask them what their numbers are, they have no clue. When I ask them, the last time they looked at their PnL, they have no idea. They look at it in December for the tax planning part. So I think it's, in my opinion, as much or more the fault of the business owner. And again, it's not because... I think it's just because the business owner doesn't know what they should know. And there isn't anyone there guiding them to say, hey, let's look at it in March. Let's look at it in July Let's look at it in October. We'll look at each quarter and see how you're doing. And then from there, we can make some decisions each quarter on where we think you're going to be by the end of the year.

[00:20:13.01] - Rich Veltre

Yeah. And I agree with your comment that it's 50/50, right? Because the business owner doesn't know to ask. The accountant doesn't want to spoil the relationship. And so the accountant's not going to say, I have to spend more hours because the business owner is going to say, but then you're going to bill me for it. So I think the education part of it has to come in. There has to be an education moment where the accountant says, This This is why we have to do that, because you're getting paid or you're paying all of these taxes, and we don't really have the time at tax time to figure out if there's anything else can be doing. Now, I'm not saying that your accountant is not doing a good job because there may be absolutely nothing you can do other than pay your taxes on time and not pay the extra interest or penalties. Nobody likes the word penalty. Sometimes it just has to happen. If there's some reason why you had to file lead, then you can ask the IRS to abate the penalty. But for the most part, they're going to assess the penalty.

[00:21:30.28] - Rich Veltre

The question is whether or not you're going to get to the point where you have to pay it. So I would tell people, look, have the conversation with your accountant. Is there anything else I should be doing? Is there anything else I can think of? I had a conversation with someone who was a solopreneur, really pretty small business. And he just asked me, is there anything else I can do? Now, we had had just a blanket half hour meeting, and I talked to him, and I got to know a little bit about him, his It was a family. It was a new client. And he said, I have two young kids. And I said, do you pay your kids on the company at all? He said, Why would I do that? And I said, well, your kids don't pay your rate, right? So So if you wanted to, you could actually pay your kids something and have them put it away towards college or put it away into a Roth IRA. It sounds like it's a far fetched conversation, but I'm like, you're teaching your kids money already because you told me that in the conversation.

[00:22:32.24] - Rich Veltre

So why don't you give them a little bit, show them what it means to put some of it away, let them spend some of it because they're getting to the point where they're in their teenage years.

[00:22:43.16] - Dan Paulson

Right? Right.

[00:22:44.25] - Rich Veltre

And And you've got a whole mechanism of teaching your kids about education, and you just got a tax deduction for taking the money out of your business and giving it to them. On top of that, if they're under, I think, 18, then they don't have to pay the Social Security and Medicare. Now, don't quote me on that one, but I think that's correct, that if it's a child and you put them on the payroll, and I don't believe he has to pay the Social Security or Medicare.

[00:23:11.05] - Dan Paulson

So it becomes- I think they have to pay one of them.

[00:23:13.24] - Rich Veltre

One of them. Okay.

[00:23:15.05] - Dan Paulson

Because I know from our kids, because our kids, they've been at that working age, what they earn and what they took home wasn't exactly the same. It was off by a small amount. But it was pretty obvious it wasn't the income taxes coming up, because at that point, they're filing But I would believe that it's either Medicare or social care. It might be both, actually. They have to pay in on that, because it's a relatively small amount.

[00:23:38.10] - Rich Veltre

Yeah. So it's worth it, right? Because we had this conversation. He goes, I never would have thought of that. So it's an example of conversations you can have with your accountant. Was it worth if the accountant billed you for a half hour for that, and you saved a number of dollars, did he pay for himself? Did he just bill you because he We have to have a meeting, and at the end of the meeting, you walked away with nothing? Well, that's a different story. But if you walked away and said, Oh, I have an idea. What if I did that? Because I had a thought that if I put my kid on the payroll, and And had him do some stuff around here, he learns a little bit. He gains some money in his bank account, and we could wind up setting that up to be for college, or we could wind up setting it up for... He can put that into a Roth IRA that's It's going to be nontaxable when he retires. If he grows from 17 to 70, and he never touches it, how much is that money going to be worth at the age of 70?

[00:24:41.26] - Rich Veltre

Exactly. These are the things that no one's thinking about, because we're all worried about today. We're not worried about being proactive about the future, as opposed to reactive about now.

[00:24:52.20] - Dan Paulson

Are there other opportunities to look for besides the child situation where you actually hired, I was almost going to say child labor. We're not talking child. It's having them do some random jobs around the office, maybe just to, again, earn some income and utilize that tax benefit. I mean, What else can you do? We've talked about certain things like Section 179 before. I don't consider that tax planning, as you've mentioned. If it's something you need, you buy it. If it's something you don't, well, you still got to spend money on that thing to take the tax. Now you got to weigh, is it more beneficial for you to have the new truck versus paying the feds?

[00:25:35.17] - Rich Veltre

I think the other thing to think about is, are you maximizing? Let's put it this way. First of all, do you know your numbers well enough to know, do you have the ability, do you have a profit margin that shows that you have excess cash? And I don't mean everybody walks up and says, I don't have any money in my pocket. Okay. Because you spent it. Everybody looks at the government being after they spent all the money. So if you move the government to beforehand, and then you look at what's left, did you have money that you could have put at least a piece of it into retirement planning? Because right now, my biggest fear is that most people are sitting there worried about paying the taxes and being reactive, and they're not planning for the future. There's no thought pattern on the fact that the government gives you decent size incentives to go and put money into retirement planning. And yet you get involved in elder parents, you get involved in kids going to college, you set them up so they can actually have a life that's different once they come out of college, you're trying to help them out, that thing.

[00:26:44.06] - Rich Veltre

So you get involved in all that, and you forget about yourself. So when you get to that age where you're like, well, wait a second, I have to put some money away. And now you're trying to do it last second. If you did it earlier, it's a lot easier. So the question becomes, did investigate that with your accountant? Because your accountant is first, your financial planner is second. Your accountant is doing the taxes. He's telling you what money you have in your pocket. Then you can go to the financial planner or the guy who's got the investment account and say, here's what my accountant says I have. Here's how much I have to be able to put away. And now you can let those guys be very creative on, well, here's what we can do with that. And here's what we can plan for. Here's what we can try to move away. Did your accountant think about doing X or Y if we set up this account? Guaranteed, the accountant is not salesperson who's doing those accounts. So he may not know. So you need to get to the point where you've got some back and forth between those two professionals.

[00:27:39.23] - Rich Veltre

But if you haven't sat down and had a conversation of how can I put some of this money away, It's a moot point. It doesn't help you at all. So the incentives are pretty enormous. Okay, real quick, the last piece of that, though, because it goes right into what we were talking about, the simplified employee pension plan. You can put away a significant amount of money. I think the top amount is $66,000 for the year. Now, the problem is they give you until April 15th, when you file your extension, to pay the $66,000. Nobody likes that, because if you pay it in April, the $66,000 is a deduction. It's times your tax rate. So you're putting 66,000 away. You're getting $20,000 off your taxes, let's say. But it hurts when you have to write a big check for 66,000. So nobody wants to do it. So when you get to extension time, it's like, I'll deal with it next year.

[00:28:48.08] - Dan Paulson

And next year never comes.

[00:28:50.13] - Rich Veltre

But if you had put away between five and $6,000 per month, it doesn't sting as bad.

[00:28:59.10] - Dan Paulson

So it really goes- And that's where the tax planning comes in, because you have to know you're able to put that five to 6,000 dollars into the retirement. Yeah.

[00:29:06.22] - Rich Veltre

It's the proactive part as opposed to the reactive part, right? 66,000 dollars on April 15th is, I owe too much in taxes. I have to write a big check out. Well, the check for the taxes is less than the amount you have to put in the pension. Okay? So more than likely, you're not going to write the 66,000. But if you do the planning and you get to the point of doing the five or $6,000 a month, does it hurt? I'm sure it does. Okay? But at the end of the day, you don't owe as much in taxes, and you have this money, it's still yours. It's still an asset. It's an asset if you go for a mortgage and they say, do you have a pension plan? Yes, actually, I do. I have 66,000 dollars plus the interest I made over the course of the last 12 months. So it's worth it to have these conversations, but people have to stop looking at it as the accountant is going to charge me a hundred bucks or five hundred bucks or thousand bucks.

[00:30:03.22] - Dan Paulson

Now, that is where I think the accounts need to do a better job in selling the return on investment on that, because they do treat it like an account. That's an expense. That's an accounting expense It's professional fees or whatever you want to call it. You really need to start explaining it in a way that your clients are going to understand this is necessary. This is going to help you long term save money or at the very least, keep more money in your pocket. Then if you wait till the last minute. And the only thing we do is I contact you in December or January, say this is what we think you're going to own. And here's when we're going to get done with the filing, answer this book of questions to see if anything's changed. And that's pretty much it. And that's the only contact you have with your accountant at that point.

[00:30:47.04] - Rich Veltre

Right. So the accountants have to change exactly. But if you're a business owner, especially, if you're an individual now, I tell people, look, on an individual level, it should be a really quick conversation. They've taken away a lot of the deductions that you could have had as an individual. There's not a lot of play. There's essentially planning for, this is what my income is going to be. Here's how much I have to pay, period. That conversation doesn't have to be a four or five hour conversation, because they've made the individual tax return relatively simple. The complication is what's coming out of businesses that you own, and they're coming into your personal return. I don't see a lot of tax planning opportunity anymore for the person who just has a W2 job. So for those, understand your taxes, and then it's probably not going to change for a while. It's going to be the same next year and the year after that. So you can actually have a quick conversation, understand the numbers, and go forward. If you're a business owner, have the extra hour. Okay. Have the extra hour conversation with your accountant. Have that person basically explain to you what's going on and see if you can work with them to come up with some way that you can plan better so that you don't have the big surprise.

[00:32:17.03] - Dan Paulson

And maybe do that a couple of times a year. So that way it isn't in December, it's throughout the year. So if there are any changes, plus or minus, you can make adjustments on the fly. You're not making them at the end of the year.

[00:32:29.23] - Rich Veltre

Correct. Correct.

[00:32:32.26] - Dan Paulson

That's good advice, Rich. I think if people need to get a hold of you, they should contact you. So how will they do that?

[00:32:39.26] - Rich Veltre

Best way to go is an email to rveltre@veltregroup.com.

[00:32:45.08] - Dan Paulson

And if you need to get a hold of me, you can get a hold of me at danpaulsonletsgo.com. One other thing we should talk about that might help with some of this proactive stuff, Rich, is we also do a report. You want to call it a state of business report. You want to call it a success Cession Planning Report, whatever it might be. We've done them for different reasons for different companies. But that might be something you want to look at because that can help you with future planning for growth. It can help you understand the value of your business, what you need to do to gain more value, more sales, more revenue, more profitability. And it's a flat fee service that we provide. So contact either one of us for that. That's another way we can help you out. And I guess the last thing we should continue to announce that I think our It's November first is the official day that we're going to talk about it. But we've been working on something else to help business owners get some of the talent that they need when they need it for as long as they need it.

[00:33:43.10] - Dan Paulson

And that's just the hint that I'm dropping now. Other than that, Rich, it's been a good conversation. I've actually learned a few things that I probably need to apply for myself as well. So this is always a good conversation. And we will talk again about another exciting subject in business next week.

[00:34:01.04] - Rich Veltre

All right. Sounds good.

[00:34:03.15] - Dan Paulson

All right. Talk to you later.

[00:34:05.04] - Rich Veltre

All right. Talk to you later.