Tariffs And Their Impact. Costs And Challenges From A Canadian Point Of View

Trump's tariffs have kicked into effect recently and companies are feeling their impact. But what does it really mean to trade with some of our closest allies and trading partners?

In this episode we will talk with Pascal Brien, Directeur Général chez Esthétique Électrolyse Canada, to discuss changes, challenges, and what he is doing going forward.

About Pascal:

Pascal is the manager and CEO of EEC, a leading Canadian company in the beauty product distribution industry, operating for 35 years. With a Bachelor's degree in finance, he oversees a team of 30 people and runs a company that collaborates with over 250 partners across 18 countries. Thanks to sustained growth and a strong international presence, Pascal has positioned EEC as a major player in its sector.

In this podcast, Pascal takes you through the intricate dynamics of tariffs and the trade war between the United States and Canada, providing a well-informed, professional perspective on current economic issues. With a sharp business acumen and hands-on experience, he offers a clear, in-depth analysis of the situation. Passionate about business and finance, Pascal also shares professional anecdotes that show how to navigate changing and sometimes turbulent global economic environments. This podcast is designed for those who want to understand the underlying factors of the trade war and its direct impact on international trade.

[00:00:11.24] - Alice

Hello. Welcome to Books in the Biz, a podcast that looks at both the financial and operational sides of success. Please welcome our hosts, Dan Paulson and Richard Veltre. Dan is the CEO of Envision Development International, and he works with leaders to increase sales and profits through great cultures with solid operations. Rich is CEO of the Veltri Group and a financial strategist working with companies to manage their money more effectively. Now on to the Podcast.

[00:00:40.20] - Dan Paulson

Welcome to Books and the folks in the biz. Hello, Rich. How are you doing today?

[00:00:48.14] - Rich Veltre

I'm good. How are you?

[00:00:50.03] - Dan Paulson

Good, good. Hey, I thought I was way up north. I've got somebody who's even further north than I am. Pascal Brien, right?

[00:00:57.26] - Pascal Brien

Yes, indeed.

[00:00:58.26] - Dan Paulson

Okay, my The wrench is off, so I'm glad I got it right. Welcome aboard. How are you?

[00:01:04.22] - Pascal Brien

Thank you very much. I'm great. I'm recovering from a little cold, so I'm sorry about the voice, but I am great. I can't complain.

[00:01:10.28] - Dan Paulson

You sound good from here. So that's great to hear. Well, Rich Pascal, as you know, it's interesting times here in the US. We always have a little bit of fun. We have the gift that keeps on giving, is what I tell Rich, because there's always something each week for us to talk about. And of course, our administration right now has taken on the, I guess, the love of tariffs, if you will. Tariffs are going to save everything. But in reality, I don't think tariffs are going to save much of anything. They just add additional cost and caused trade disruption and everything else. And I thought, Pascal, with you being up in Canada, you can give it from a Canadian perspective, maybe share what's going on politically up in your world. How does this impact Canada Trade for you. I know you've got a few products that you get from the US, but I think most of your products might come from somewhere else. But we just want to get a feel for what your thoughts are on it. So before we get started on that, though, let's learn a little bit more about you and your company.

[00:02:15.13] - Dan Paulson

So could you share what your company does?

[00:02:18.17] - Pascal Brien

Absolutely. Let's start there. So basically, I've been the manager of a small business here in Canada, based just out of Montreal, in a city called Laval, 15, 20 minutes from downtown Montreal, when there's no traffic. And of It's a few ads, then what everything else, it's a little bit more further down the road. But yeah, the business has been on for the last 35 years. My mother started it. We are now about 30 employees. Our core business is to sell beauty products to professional around Canada. So 98 % of our sales is done in Canada, and I've got about 1% in the US and 1% international. But we do buy a lot from US and Europe, a little bit of China, a little bit in Canada as well. So this is what we've been doing real quick because I don't want to talk about our home business for so long. But of course, I can talk to you about EC for forever. We do carry about 6000 products, 170 brands, and Where the topic of the conversation today is affecting us a little bit more, it's everything that's manicure, pedicure, and that body care. Right now, the compensation from Canada, and the answer has been to overcharge 25% while it was free a month and a half, a month and a quarter ago.

[00:03:38.25] - Pascal Brien

Of course, brands like most of you might know, OPI, Nool polish, CND and Shellac, Great nail polish brands. Brands like this are going to get affected here in Canada because of that new policy.

[00:03:52.28] - Dan Paulson

The only reason I know any of that stuff is because I'm married and my wife uses a bunch of it. So that's about the only way I know. But you're actually selling to salons, so hairstylist, nail salons, I believe, also spas. You do spa therapy and stuff like that as well, right?

[00:04:12.03] - Pascal Brien

Yeah. So if we go back in industry, so starting 1990, our core business was spa, beauty salon, nail technician, waxing expert, massage therapist, the very, very wide beauty industry. Basically, it got a little bit bigger, and this is where we're getting our one % along with other in Canada. But we've opened stock distributing as well in Canada and America. That was back in 2007. Right before COVID, we've opened a D2C division as well. So we've got a division that selling directly to the consumer as well.

[00:04:48.17] - Dan Paulson

Cool. So sounds like good growth. Well, now it comes down to the question, in recent months, we've, of course, had this talk of tariffs. I don't think all the tariffs are necessarily directed towards your industry, per se, but at the same point, he's done a blanket tariff with Canada and with Mexico. What are you seeing as some of the impacts? Early on, you had mentioned already predicting an increase, but what else have you seen?

[00:05:18.07] - Pascal Brien

Well, do you want an answer as a Canadian, as a 30,000 foot, or you want to talk about the business first and maybe-You know what I mean?

[00:05:24.00] - Dan Paulson

Talk about the business first, then you can talk broader picture of Canadian or Canadian business. How's that?

[00:05:29.08] - Pascal Brien

All right. So Let's talk about EEC first. For us, in terms of sales, as I said, it's tiny. 1% of my business, even though it was zero tomorrow, it doesn't affect my sales all that much in terms of American market. In terms of Canadian market, as I was saying earlier, CND, OPI, great brands. We're one of the master distributors here in Canada. Well, guess what? If we get charged with 25% more, if a Nell polish costs $10, by example, well, tomorrow, if everything stays the same. It should be 12: 50. Basically, consumer needs to think, Am I going to spend 12: 50 instead of $10? That's just pure mathematics. Both of our government, depending on which way the goods are crossing the street, are going to take this as extra taxes. But at the end of the day, the business can't assume we don't have 90% margin and we can just say, Oh, we'll run at 65 instead of 90. It's not how the world and the industry work. We got to throw it back somewhere. Usually what it does is that 25% will give the customer the option of saying, Hey, do I still need this at 12: 50 or do I don't need this?

[00:06:40.06] - Pascal Brien

Basically, sales are probably going to go down and basically we'll keep selling. But instead of selling 100 units, maybe we'll go down to 80, maybe we'll go down to 20. Who knows? I'm confident sales will keep going, but it's the volume that might disappear, and that will happen in both sides. Basically, whatever we're doing right now, my feeling is it's going to go a a little bit slower just because at the end of the day, the free dollar available for whether you're Canadian or American, it's $100. Well, you got to choose, and you need to choose a little bit more wisely. If the inflation and this taxes appear, the same dollar will be there. So you'll need to choose a little bit more wiser where you spend that dollar. Does it make any sense? Is it clear?

[00:07:22.03] - Dan Paulson

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's clear.

[00:07:23.17] - Pascal Brien

French, as you know, as a first language. So sometimes here and there, I might throw a curveball. It'll work. It'll Can you stop me and tell me up front?

[00:07:31.20] - Dan Paulson

If you go full on French, we'll have to call in an interpreter, but otherwise we should be pretty well good. Rich, do you have anything to ask around that? You're our financial guy. What's your thoughts going in?

[00:07:42.04] - Rich Veltre

Yeah, I have one major question And it came up because your example is great. It makes total sense. Now, I'm looking to see an example of creativity, right? So my question becomes, you see this as the possibility. You see this is the way this is going to go. Are you doing anything or are you thinking in any way of how to creatively protect yourself? So in other words, it used to be, well, it was $10 and everybody loved it. And I bought this much inventory and this is what I'm carrying. And then the next step is, well, we have to predict whether it's going to go down to, I used to sell 100, now I'm going to sell 60, then I'm going to sell, maybe I'll sell 20. Is there a creative thought going into, well, how do I combat that? How do I determine what to do going forward? Because there's a lot of small businesses that are basically looking at it from a standpoint of we don't know what to do.

[00:08:47.01] - Pascal Brien

All right. So let me tell you what we've done so far, what we are trying to do, what we are succeeding, and what I think many other businesses in America and in Canada are doing. So I'll give you an example. When it first started, I'll be very honest with you, I don't know, February second, third, fourth, I don't remember the exact date, but I spent the whole day with my buyer, my buyer director, my manager, and basically like, whoa, It really was a surprise. I was surprised it was true. I'm like, I thought it was a bluff or something, to be very honest. And we did contact our partners, and most of our American partners thought the exact same. We were there, Oh, let's see, let's think, let's book a meeting. Finally, the next day, it just disappeared. We were saved at that magic stick or glow or whatever. That's how it went at first. Then it appeared again. But meanwhile, what we've done is we had those meetings, we've talked to our different partners, and we're in an industry where we can stock goods because they do exist, because we can plan ahead. We've been selling most of everything for a while, or we can have a little bit of prediction.

[00:10:03.29] - Pascal Brien

What we've done is we've increased our inventory in order to pad, because the same thing happened in 2018. It wasn't 25% back then, it was 15%. Basically, we've done something similar. You increase when it's possible, because I do understand some business, it's a very custom-made tool. You don't know what you'll need next week or next month. You can stock in something very precise, or you can stock electricity and It's not like you put it in a battery. It needs to go through as you need it. You know what I mean? Basically, we were able to bump our inventory for every critical item, every critical brands and partners we've had. We're not the same. We're not the only one that did it. I think America, Canada, had its best month in February in terms of sales in the US, because there's definitely a lot of Americans and Canadians that were stressed and that dictate this opportunity to reduce the risk. But that's just a plaster at the end of the day, because if it last a few weeks, we'll all be good. What if it last one, two, three, six months, a year, or the full four years of Mr. Trump.

[00:11:16.29] - Pascal Brien

Who knows? That's the first step we've done. Step two is we've talked with our partner, and what we will try to do is, let's take that 25. If they give us 10%, we assume assume 10%, maybe we'll only need to throw an extra five on the customers. But what happens when we do this? Same thing. If it's a plaster, it doesn't matter. We can assume that loss of profit because at the end of the day, both business suffer from less profit. And that means lower wage, no wage increase for the workers, lower quality of service. I cannot have five staff in the store. Maybe we'll need to cut to four. And the same thing with So PI, Hey, we're not going to process your orders in two days. We'll do it in four days because we need less staff in the warehouse and it'll take the time. So what happens long term? The quality goes down. General, that That's my personal feeling because there'll be less money, less profit to invest in higher quality, higher new colors, new technology or something. At the end of the day, the dollar doesn't disappear. And I do not believe we'll be able to throw this back 100 % to the customer.

[00:12:32.20] - Pascal Brien

It won't be possible, whether it's my industry or any other industry. Does this answer the question? Does it make any sense?

[00:12:39.27] - Dan Paulson

Yeah, actually, it does. So you've also got How does the difference in currency affect that? Because actually, the dollar here is how much in Canadian dollars. Actually, isn't it even worse going your direction than, say, coming towards the US?

[00:13:02.23] - Pascal Brien

Let's pull out. So it's not that bad today. Let's look. All right. So just to give you an example, around COVID time, it cost a dollar, 15 for a Canadian to get a dollar US, so 15 points, right? Today, we're at 1. 45. So That's 30% saving you guys are already getting a discount. I do really realize all of that. And the pricing's strange because we've seen this a lot But if it costs $10 US for a very good quality grocery store, and it costs $10 Canadian for the exact same freaking state, $5 delta. If you compare it on a Canadian dollar at this point. So indeed, it's a huge deal right now because of that exchange rate, if you compare. And COVID wasn't done. We're talking two, three, four years ago. So we're actually five when it started, but last lasted for two years.

[00:14:19.01] - Dan Paulson

So that leaves a mark, too. I think it's even more impactful that way. Now we've seen the back and forth going on, and maybe this is something we're now moving from just a business owner in Canada to a Canadian. What's the perspective on your side of the world? You've got your own government issues. We can dig into that as much as you want because we dig into our own over here and we have fun going back and forth of it. But from a Canadian standpoint, do you look at all this?

[00:14:55.01] - Pascal Brien

Let's start for the benefit of everybody that's listening right now. We've got a new Prime Minister now. So do equivalent of your president. We've got a new one. I think he got yesterday or the day before. As I said, I've been sick last week, so I might be off by a day or two. Sorry about this. So we've got... Justin Trudeau did leave. I don't want to get into politics, but I personally, I think it's a good thing. But yeah, we've got a new Prime Minister, so maybe things will get better. Maybe they'll get worse. It's yet to know. He's only been there for two, three or one day, so let's give the guy a chance. My feeling we'll go an election by mid-May, and we'll see if we get a new, new Prime Minister at that time.

[00:15:38.08] - Dan Paulson

Maybe you could explain how Canada politics works, because I think there's probably a number of people that assume it's just the same as here that you put out, there's an election, you hold a vote, and this person is put in, but it's really not that way. So Trudeau left, and then basically, the parliament gets to pick the next prime minister, correct?

[00:16:00.22] - Pascal Brien

Yes. At this point, that's how it works. Basically, Trudeau was elected, but not only he was elected, but the party was elected. Basically, the party stays in power and basically will flip it over whenever they try to pass a law and they can't, then we have to go an election because they don't hold, especially right now, they don't hold the majority. They need another party because we're not two parties like it is right now in America. There's four or five different parties that's holding seats. And of course, you need 50 plus one in order to be able to win if you got to vote. So right now, it's next time they'll try to pass pretty much any law, it will fail and we will have to go in an election and then vote for a new party. So real quick, because we can talk about this for a very long time, and I'm not an expert in politics. I know enough how it and everything. So basically, they were in power with a minority percentage of the seats, just to give everybody an idea. And so for the last two or three years, I don't have the exact figures, but they've been ruling and voting votes with an attach on a second or a third party like, Hey, we'll vote this.

[00:17:21.24] - Pascal Brien

Would you tag along and vote with us? Yes. So the Democratic Party would say yes, and then it would be another party or the Conservator. Basically, they would just be able to pass law choosing who it would benefit so that they tag along and they put pressure so that it works and that we're not in election every two or three weeks or months. It doesn't make any sense?

[00:17:48.21] - Dan Paulson

Oh, yeah, it makes sense. And it just goes to show that even for our two-party system, it's not that other systems are always that much better. Sometimes they're even more complicated.

[00:17:58.25] - Pascal Brien

Well, it's Some parts I feel like it's less complicated, like the fact whenever we pass Allah, well, it's done, we're moving on. It needs to be built before and then we pass it. If the vote is done, it's done. Compared to you, I think once it's done, it needs to pass the other step with the Senate, right? Correct, yes. We don't have that extra step. So basically, it makes things a little bit easier, I guess. But sometimes, well, it's the balance of power because next time the government changes, they just destroy the law, the other one did, and we're going back to normal. So sometimes it's just a balance. You're going left and right, depending if it's freaking blue or red. So society is not moving forward, probably when that happens.

[00:18:42.23] - Dan Paulson

Well, we're experiencing a lot of that right now down here, too. So I completely understand where you're coming from. Rich, what else do you have to ask about?

[00:18:51.26] - Rich Veltre

I think those two were probably the biggest ones. How do you feel about the fact that I mean, I realized that I'm not considering in this question, not considering the exchanging. But do you feel like this is just a governmental race to the bottom? I mean, if we throw in 25 %, you throw in 25 %, where does it end? At that point, it just flip flops back and forth and nobody's happy. So I think that's the question. Do you think that this has any effect Because there's an awful lot of people out there saying this is just a waste of time.

[00:19:36.04] - Pascal Brien

Well, my thought, if we're going back to February third, let's say, when we all thought it might be a bluff, I Here's my understanding and my perception, and I'm trying to put myself in our very top 33,000-foot-high government. We're not perfect, but we've been agreeing, and we've been great partners for so many years, but one or two or three things are, I don't like it, just with your wife's. I don't like when he's dropping his socks in the middle of the kitchen or something. So Here's a few points where each country has irritants, and we'd like them to get corrected, just like Le Bois d'œuvre, wood, hardwood. How do you call this part? Lumber? Yeah, exactly. To build houses, You know that part of wood. Since I was in university, America has been complaining about us. And then I'll give that point to you. It's not a perfect condition. And Canada has been very, very beneficial of that point. On the other hand, you don't have enough trees. There's another balance paper-wise. You're gaining from this because you're getting it for a little bit cheaper. A little bit the same thing with the oil from Alberta.

[00:20:59.10] - Pascal Brien

So I feel like it should be a constructive conversation and say, this and this and this. I'd really like to retalk about our terms. I'd like it to be a little bit more to our benefits, but I'm ready to exchange because that's the other thing. We're giving on the other hand, so maybe you're losing on the right, but you're gaining on the left. And I really feel like the balance is really, really not so bad. And I'm no expert. I haven't looked at every single line of exchange, but there's a lot and a lot where it's a win-win-win condition. Both country, both citizens are winning. The automobile industry, it's such a great example. It's just crossing, halfway done, three quarter of it done, painting, bing, bing, bing. It's because all of us, we've got a trench, and basically, this is where it makes the difference. Especially right now, there's a lot of added value for you to be able to produce car here in Canada just because of the exchange rate. The same person, you're paying $20 US or $20 Canadian. Hey, you're saving 45 % just in salary. Well, guess what? That reflects in the price of the car.

[00:22:18.15] - Pascal Brien

And then, except for me who's in Quebec, I've got a good friend that lives in New York. I've got a very good friend that lives in Toronto. They speak the same language. They have the same religion. Their girlfriend is the exact same. I mean, there's no difference. They are very, very much alike. I do realize, Quebec is a slight different thing. Let's forget about Quebec. But for most of Canada and most of Americans, the values, the emotions, the mindset, the language, name it, we are very, very similar. I don't think there's any other two countries worldwide that has close value as we do. So if we're going back to your question, I really feel like the best way would be to talk about what's truly causing unsatisfaction on both sides. You do two columns and you go down and you try to find a compromise, because at the end of the day, I really believe that 90 % of it works for everybody. And of course, there's a few points. Just recently, if we take the milk and egg industry, and no offense to anyone, but the regulation in America is not the same as it is right now here.

[00:23:35.13] - Pascal Brien

And the fact that for us, it's a global industry where we put everything all together and we reshare the profit and the sales for the manufacturing of milk and cow and everything else. And the regulation, it's pretty high because we want to make sure the cows aren't that big within three weeks. So while in many, many places, there's no regulation in America, and basically it makes a huge difference, and this is why we are overtaxing. And if you balance the way you produce meat, milk, and everything else, we'll be more than happy to drop them down. My personal feeling. I'm not negotiating for the government, but you know what I mean? There's a few things like this. I'll give you another example. It's the way we regulate our ports or airplanes, the airport. We don't want anybody than ourselves to manage this. It's really critical in times of war and everything. And I do not believe America or any other country worldwide should give this to any foreign countries. So you need to put limit in this to make sure you control these very key and critical assets of your country and operations.

[00:24:46.08] - Dan Paulson

Well, I think there's a mutual agreement on that one. I mean, that's what led to the whole Panama Canal thing, where they've seen China expand by basically going in and more or less buying out the ports in these countries. They'll go in, they'll put in all new infrastructure or anything, but there comes at a cost to that, because now China essentially owns the ports. And to your point, once they control that, they control what comes in and what goes out. That's just the way it is. I think we're starting to wake up to that to a certain degree, but we really haven't gotten involved in that until this administration. So I think that's, again, we can argue good, bad or otherwise. I've got my own issues with who's currently in power, and I also see some things they're doing that to give them credit, they probably need to be done. Let me ask you this. So let's get back on the business owner side of things. So if these tariffs continue to go through or if they're going through, you're seeing costs increase. You realize that you have to maybe reduce staff. You're going to absorb maybe some of that costs.

[00:25:56.16] - Dan Paulson

Ultimately, though, you have to find a way to get more efficient. Do you see automation or any other thing being implemented, even though there might be a higher upfront cost long term? It should pay for itself, especially if some of these taxes hold, shouldn't it?

[00:26:12.07] - Pascal Brien

If we talk But EC, individually, right now, I feel like we're very, very lucky. I'm a young manager, and basically we did invest a lot in robots, software robots that are processing orders. And I'll give you two little example. We've got a robot a lot that looks at every online order that comes through. We've got six different websites for different reasons, and basically, they check 30 points, more or less. Is there a full name? Is it paid? Is it overdue? Basically, it doesn't need to be paid, but they haven't paid the invoice for it before. Is there a city? Is there a zip code? Is there only numbers on the street and address? Or is there numbers and letters so that we know it's 1, 2, 3, 4, Boulevard, whatever. Basically, it looks at 30 points. If everything is good, they'll send us to shipping. Then we've got another robot that looks at everything and draws the map on how they should pick it up because you don't want to do... In shipping, they don't want to walk 10,000 foot this direction, 10,000 foot. And then there was item number three right here. They're going back next to the exact same bin.

[00:27:21.21] - Pascal Brien

So basically, I make sure it's doing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, six. Boom. We did invest quite a lot of money in automating our own business in what we felt was reasonable and acceptant and everything else. But you are right about one thing, Canada versus the rest of the world, and maybe not. Let's say the G20 countries, we are not the most efficient. We haven't been. There is a lack of capacity and speed and use of the technology, especially now since AI and everything, I really believe we got to invest and get better Canada wide. For us, we've got a few projects, but it won't go from wherever we are to double or triple. But you are right, it's something that needs to be considered. Although I'll give you an example of what we've done recently. There's a few tasks. Somebody working remotely from the office, do they need to be in Canada? We've seen this with very big business that did their call centers in India, for example. Many, many airlines have done this over the last 20 years. It's been seen with larger business. Now, especially in Canada, we've been seeing lots of smaller business to be able to transfer position in other countries, in Africa, in the Caribbean, a job that can be done over the phone or remotely.

[00:28:56.13] - Pascal Brien

We've seen this before as well. I feel like it's something One thing in North America we haven't used as much, especially the small business, and we'll need to rethink the way we transfer and we assess tasks.

[00:29:13.00] - Dan Paulson

Yeah. That leads me to another question then with that. Would you ever consider a remote location, say, across the border from Quebec, somewhere in the US, putting in a small facility just to beat the tariffs that way?

[00:29:28.21] - Pascal Brien

It If the sales of my personal business in America was 5, 10, 20, 30 %, that's definitely something we would do. I think it would be smart. Again, it's not something that can be done overnight. So it's something we got to plan ahead, build ahead, and know the regulations because there's definitely... The FDA versus Health Canada, by example, they mean well. They mean the exact same thing. We don't want to put a cream or a product into somebody that's going to cause them arm. But the way they do it is very different. So for me, for my business, it doesn't make any sense. But I've heard, and I know many businesses in Canada have done it before before the tariff, before everything else. Sometimes it's just a warehouse, sometimes it's production, sometimes it's all... There's quite a few steps in the whole logistic chain, but I believe it's something that has already been happening for a while. Because of the zero exchange, it made sense to produce in one spot versus the other for a different reason. Then just take aluminum. Lots of it is produced here in Quebec because we've got the lowest electricity fee because of a renewable renewable electricity, the way it's built because of the construction of the water structure that makes it- Dams and hydroelectric.

[00:30:55.06] - Pascal Brien

Exactly. It makes sense to build it and use it here because the main cost, it's way cheaper than anywhere else in North America. And it's green as well. It's renewable energy. So again, to answer your question, for my business, it doesn't make any sense because we don't have enough volume in terms of sales. But definitely, if we had a business where 5, 20, 50 % of the sales were in America, we need to rethink the way we're doing stuff in order to get better and then reduce the logistic cost as well.

[00:31:28.17] - Dan Paulson

Well, we'll have to get to your business more down here, Pascal. That's all there is to it. Rich, do you have anything else to add?

[00:31:36.14] - Rich Veltre

No, I think I got all my answers. All right. Or at least enough.

[00:31:40.25] - Dan Paulson

Pascal, yeah, we should wrap it up then. Tell us a little bit more If somebody is looking to get connected with you, since this can go anywhere, either in Canada or the US, what's the best way to contact you?

[00:31:53.22] - Pascal Brien

Well, I'd say the website, it's the true and only option, the fastest, and somebody will get in touch with you. So if you're looking for beauty products, you can go in eecinc.ca. You'll be able to find all of the 6,000 items we're selling and we'll be more than happy to get you in touch with another agent. So, yeah.

[00:32:17.21] - Dan Paulson

That's great. That's great. Rich, how do they get a hold of you?

[00:32:21.12] - Rich Veltre

Best way is by email, rich@xcxo.net.

[00:32:25.01] - Dan Paulson

And mine's just as simple now as dan@xcxo.net. And to learn a little bit more about XCXO. Bob, take it away.

[00:32:32.13] - Bob

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