151. How Birth Affects Marriage

Ayelet Schwell is a traditional birth keeper, Birth Healer, speaker, and educator for mothers and birth professionals. She guides mothers as they create their own positive, powerful birth stories. She also gives "Birthing Our Stories" workshops to women who have experienced trauma in the birthing process. Rebbetzin Bat-Chen Grossman is a marriage coach for women in business. Join them as they discuss birth and marriage.

Welcome to the Connected For Real podcast. I'm Rebbetzin Bat-Chen Grossman, a marriage coach for women in business. And my mission is to bring God's presence into your life, into your marriage and into your business. Let's get started.

 And we are live Welcome everyone to the connected for real podcast. I'm Revitan Batran Grossman and today with me is Ayelet Schwell and Ayelet is a birth expert I don't know. She's awesome. She was my doula in two of my births that were home, so that was really exciting and we can talk about that more.

And specifically today, we're talking about birth and the effect on your marriage and vice versa. Your marriage and the effects on your birth. So, let's start. Ayelet, introduce yourself and then we can get started. All right, great. First of all, thank you for having me on your podcast again. It's been a couple of years and I'm really happy to be here again.

So thank you. I'm Ayelet. I am a birth healer, a traditional birth attendant. I've been in this field for six, 17 years and attending births processing birth trauma. Helping women to work through their birth experiences and in the past three years. I've basically been attending home births either with a licensed midwife as the doula Or for women who are choosing to birth outside the system And not have a medical professional present.

And I have been mostly focused on helping women to make the decisions that are supporting women really and making the decisions that are going to bring them the highest level of connection with their intuition, connection with their body connection with Hashem and help them to be as healthy and whole as possible.

That's amazing. Yeah, whoo. That is a lot. That's you do you do great work I remember hearing you say that you help women process their birth and I thought oh my gosh Really you can do that. You know, you don't have to carry that story and just the way it is raw Running your life behind the scenes. That was a real game changer.

Just knowing that it's possible to go back and process. That's the only good way I could think of it, but like really look into it, look at it from the outside and, and be able to learn the lessons and be able to find yourself within it. And instead of feeling helpless and out of control, taking back the control,

taking 📍 back the ability to connect back to yourself. Exactly, yeah, and move forward, like make that, that story, which, you know, started out as maybe causing, you know, Feeling traumatic or helpless, like you said, and being able to turn it into a source of growth and peace and being able to move forward with that.

Yes. And before we get into the marriage part, I do want to say that even if you have a good experience, quote unquote, right. Cause like we're all judging our, our experiences. So, bad experience, good experience, it doesn't matter. They all come with some sort of judgment and baggage and things that is really important to look back into and learn from. And it's when you come together in a group of three or four other women and they're all coming from different backgrounds and different decision making processes and and then you're sharing your stories and finding all the ways that you're so similar and your experiences are so similar that brings a connection that, like, the sound You know, the echo room with I'm forgetting my words right now, but you know what I'm saying?

An echo chamber. That's what I was thinking of. You know, like when you're in this, this group of all the people who know the same things as you do, you kind of forget that there's a world outside of there. And in the birthing our stories workshop, you have this opportunity to connect with women that you would not meet otherwise, that you would not be able to have conversations with, or really hear their birth stories in their entirety that you really are able to create that connection with women and that sisterhood, which I think is so, so essential for us.

Yeah, wow. I didn't know they were in groups. That's really cool. That really changes it from like a coaching experience to an actual Workshop, it opens your eyes. I love that you say you're not in a Echo chamber closed up with your own thoughts. You're sort of open to the big world and Hearing other people's experiences and then going oh she had that too or oh, I actually do have it Good.

You know, like I thought this was bad. I realized now it's not that bad. So yes, definitely. Definitely. I love that. So let's get into the marriage aspect of birth because I am a marriage coach. My specialty is marriage. And one of the things I find is that A lot of times we are as women don't give ourselves permission to lean into the ideal birth that we would want because our husbands aren't on board or we don't even know what we want because there's a certain system and the way you do things and this is how we do it and this is what you're supposed to do and so a lot of times we get lost in the noise and, and I, I'd love to hear.

Some of your advice about how to get out of that and really lean in and You know, I could share my part of the story later if you'd like. Yeah so, in any, you know, in any decision making process between a couple you're, you're each coming from your family of origin, from your own culture, from the, your own Place of like decision making and and the facts that you have And and now you're coming together and having to have this conversation Between two different people that want to do things together and so in birth. The interesting thing about birth is in the decision making process is that if the two of you are coming from two different mindsets or approaches to health, to birth in general, in the birth, in the birthing our stories workshop, the first question I ask women is, tell me about your birthing culture that you grew up in.

And culture. The the definition that I use for the word culture is the way we do things around here And so if you think about like, you know, how did how did you do birth growing up? Like how did your family do birth and sometimes it's like I didn't know anything about it, you know No one ever talked to me about it.

I know what I see on tv you know Or you might have like oh my mother had all home births or the other way, right? My mother always talks about how traumatic and horrible birth is. And so then you're, you have something to start with, like where this woman is coming from.

And a man's experience of birth growing up is going to be very different unless you're one of my sons than most women my sons know a lot more I think and probably most doulas and midwives sons are a little bit more informed but but the they're not, you know, they're not as involved in the in the stories that even if their mothers and, you know, the women in their lives are sharing stories about birth, they would kind of leave the room at that point, probably.

And so they're they don't really come in with a lot of information unless. There's some specific situation that would have given them an experience of birth so really they're just coming with very often with the general approach to birthing to medicine because we've in the past 200 years, we've moved birth from a physiological process to a medical process and Which it isn't.

So we're going back, but you know, and so those are the thoughts that are, those are the like decision making pieces that they're coming in with, and a woman may or may not have been. Already kind of hearing from her friends or from her mother or the other women in her life about birth for better or worse And may already be forming some opinions about what is important to her or what is important for her not to have and now this is a conversation that they're having for the first time and it's it's different than the Wanting to have a family and how many children do we want to have and how do we want to raise them?

It's this other aspect of that process And when you have strong opinions from either side, so then that's something that that's that's conflict resolution that needs to happen. Right. Right. I love that you say we all have a culture and what that means like how we do things around here.

It's amazing when you asked it, the first thing that I thought of, like, all I knew about birth was that it took 22 hours to get me out. And, you know, my mother had to see the same people come back to the shift the day after being like, you're still here. So I had basically only my mother's experience for the most part, because what else are you hearing when you're that age?

You don't walk around unless, like you said, unless you live with someone who's dealing with birth all day and all night, right? Like my kids know about marriage, like back of their hand. It's not something that you get to really explore. And I want to go even further and say that even when you have multiple kids, you're still in that programming.

So you, You get, you get to be intentional and start to question it and sort of shift it to where you want to go, but you also might not. And then the automatic default setting is still on. So we end up having, you know, people who have a lot of kids or have a couple of kids, and it's just the same story over and over again on repeat, because they never really processed it or made their own decisions.

Yeah. And, and that's, you know, that's with a lot of areas of life, but I think with birth, we've really been conditioned again. I want to drive it home that it's really been maybe three generations that birth has shifted from something that women do to something that is done to women. Delivering babies, for example, is it as a phrase that you would not have heard 200 years ago.

And so that's like an important point there, you know, it actually is a new way of thinking about birth in the, in the in the history of humanity, but when there are strong opinions, I'll just go to that point there. Or when, when they're, you know, actually this is a bad fact, when there are not strong opinions.

When you just kind of go with the flow, what I've seen, the women who come to me in the birthing our stories workshop, who up until that point had kind of gone with the flow, they're coming to me because something inside of them is telling them that something was not right. And everyone outside of themselves is saying, at least you and baby are healthy or that's just the way birth is, or you should just be grateful for your healthy baby or like those kinds of invalidating statements that they don't mean to be invalidating.

They actually are trying to help. And most of those people who are saying those things are coming from their own traumas and have never processed them. And so the women, you know, who come to me are saying, but. But and yet and yet something inside of me is saying that that it could have been different that Something was not right there that like yes I should be grateful and I am grateful and I love my baby and yet and so sometimes it takes the trauma to kind of awaken that inner female intuition that something could be different and really my goal is With the birthing our stories and with the birth support like the pregnancy support and the teaching is to show women that we can do better We can do better for ourselves, and that doesn't mean that we all go ahead and have home births.

That's not what I mean by doing better. But, I mean, it's clear that the system is not serving us. It's not even churning out healthy babies and mothers on a regular basis. Like, it's not. So it's time to raise the bar, and I think that we have that ability when we can have these conversations.

Right. I do want, you know, you're saying it's not turning out healthy mothers and babies. I don't want to make one way wrong. Or one way, right. Or like everybody should do it this way because I'm so into the uniqueness and, you know, personalized, each person is their own unit and has the things that are right for them.

You know, some, somebody looked at me and said, you put your baby in my own, which is like daycare, like, how could you, you're so not the type. What? You know, like what a judgment like and if I wasn't as strong as I am, I don't know if that would have hit me differently, but I just looked at it and said, we've had a really hard year.

You know, we're living through a really hard year. And I know what's good for my baby. I know what's good for me. And I'm making my decisions like, thank you very much for the judgment. So I also don't want to say like, if you went to the hospital and followed the rules and did all the things they told you, then you're wrong.

Like, no, it's fine. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and by the way, like women call me often and they'll say like, okay, but which hospital, like if I'm going to go to the hospital, which hospital? And I say, you can have a positive experience in the hospital. There are good midwives. There are, you know, doctors that will listen to you.

It's possible. It's just that and I think what you're what you're asking about, you know, or saying about the individualized care, right? That's really what we can say. Is wrong what we can agree is wrong is care that does not take into consideration The individual and that's what we're seeing that's really like at the root of it That's what we're seeing be being a problem for women because the minute you step into the system you're You're subject to the protocols And you're not an individual person unless you happen to be lucky enough to have a midwife who's going to look at you as an individual and take the time.

And it's not up to her very often if she's got three or four or 10 other women that she's serving at that same moment. And you know, and there are protocols in the hospital that are meant to protect mostly the hospital and not so much the women. And you know, and so you can go through that process and know you have no complications and you have a nice, lovely midwife and you.

Your, your desires for your own birth are, you know, in line with, what works for the hospital and then you have a wonderful birth experience and what, why should I want anything to be different? The problem is that that that doesn't serve the majority of women, right? And the minute that there is a question or there is a complication, then you're coming into conflict with the system.

So, so that's, I think if we want to say like what is wrong and I mean there's a lot of things but, but one thing that we can say is the, the lack of individualized care. So yeah, so what women are choosing it, you know, that's what we have to, you know, That's the challenge is within that system, choosing for ourselves and kind of going up against that.

But let's bring it back to the marriage aspect, I think. Yeah. Yeah. No. So that's what I was thinking. So I, I started, you know, going with the flow. My first baby was born in America. I had the epidural, they gave me Pitocin, gave me a bunch of other stuff because the epidural and the Pitocin were fighting, and eventually I had this baby that I pushed for two hours not knowing what I'm doing because I couldn't feel anything, and, you know, for the most part, like you said, happy mother, happy, like, healthy mother, healthy baby, everything is fine, move on.

But then when I had my second pregnancy is when things Sort of woke up and we're like, how do I want to do this differently? Or, you know, now that I live in Israel and I'm not in America, how are things different here? And so, the systems are different. The protocols are different. There's a lot of different things and it pushed me to start to think.

What I want differently, but I won't, I, you know, I can't say that I had a terrible experience or a bad experience. I just had a normal experience that I wanted to test and see if I can make it better. And so I want to just validate anybody who is, having fine experiences. Like no judgment, continue on do your thing, whatever works for you.

And from my first birth to my eighth birth, like I can't even describe what a transformation because each birth brought with it another experience and more learning and more. Things that I can tweak and more things that I can learn. And every birth, I learned something new. And every time I adjusted what was right for me then, and I ended up having two home births.

That were planned and you were in them. That was really fun. I also did have a midwife and we have her on the podcast I think last week. She's amazing. Yeah, she is amazing. Sarah Seymour. So she was my, my midwife. You were my doula. We also had other people there too. We had a whole party going, you weren't thinking I was going to do this alone, were you?

Every person does the thing their own way. I definitely, I had five people at each of my home births. They were different, but they, you know, it was funny. Besides my husband. So what I'm saying is my cousin looked at me and said, I am shocked that you were able to get your husband on board.

Because when my cousin met, my husband was the first year of our marriage, I was pregnant with my baby and he was so medical and so square and so stuck on, this is how it needs to be. And this is the, these are the risks and whatever. And then now to see him at a home birth, totally, you know, committed and backing me up and on board with everything that I want.

Is a real transformation. Like if anything, that's wow. And that's what people are asking me about. Like, how do you get your marriage to do that, to really slowly tweak and work together to get to a place where you're both working together and supporting each other. Even when one person is. Not okay with this or you know against it or maybe not aware enough whatever it is Right.

So I would say the first thing is that you want to look at your relationship and say what can my relationship bear? Because there are certainly women who will say, this is my body. I'm going to do what's right for me. And if you don't like it, stay out of the birth space and we can come back together and do our, you know, parenting thing together, which we agree on.

And that's one direction that you can go and it's a valid direction. And often if there, Relationship is solid. Then the husband will actually feel the same way. Like it's your body, you do what you want. I can't be here because I can't handle this. And we'll come back together and do our parenting thing.

So that's one way to do this. And, but the, the other. Like direction. And of course there's everything in between is, you know, first of all, and I'm sure, you know, I know you talk about this is validating each other. And the place where each of you are coming from and asking yourself the question of what is the most important thing to me?

And if your husband's support, physical, you know, presence is important to you, then coming to an understanding between you about your birth choices is going to be extremely important. That both of you be on the same page or at least supportive. And so the first like step I would say is to, you know, in opening that conversation to listen.

We're coming from different, places, and we have different opinions on this topic, and Can we just ask the question of like, is it possible, is it possible to explore this topic and come to a place where we agree? And, just like any other topic, you know, our The Hashkacha we want to, you know, follow or you know, which is maybe not as emotionally charged.

Whatever I'm doing my own thing I'm not even talking about it or you can open up a conversation and start to see Where are we both coming from?

What is the emotionally charged opinions that we have to put on the table and what's actually going on behind the scenes and 📍 in reality that we want to. Discuss and come to a decision about one of the things that I want to add. And you were saying this word conflict resolution, that is really important.

The magic in conflict resolution is that we first. And foremost before we start anything else try to find what is the one thing That we both want. What's the goal? What is the one thing we both want? That's both We are both here, you know, like if let's say the school calls you for a conversation about your kid And you're like, oh man, there's gonna be a big war like no conflict resolution says You want the best for the child and the principal wants the best for the child and the teacher wants the best for a child.

And now it's just about coming to an agreement on what that is, but let's put that on the table. So in a birth situation,, you know, my husband just said. I want you alive and well, because I love you and because you're, you know, as much as you want to have all this freedom to do the thing you want, whatever, but if it comes at a risk of having to raise the kids on my own or, you know, having to live without you, I'm not willing to take that risk.

So it was a very sweet and very loving goal to have me alive, which I really appreciated. And obviously it was my goal too. So we agree on. What the main outcome is. And now the conversation isn't about, well, my opinion is, and your opinion is, and my side and your side. Now it's about how can we both be okay with how we get to that goal ?Right

I remember talking to my husband and being like, I just really want to make it happen. But I don't want to go against your will. Like, I don't want to do it to spite you or to do against you. So how can we figure out how to make it work? And he said, I don't care if you get support, if you hire a doula, if you do whatever you need, but I want it to be in the hospital, that was my number six.

So I said, fine. I went to a doula and I didn't just get her for the doulaing. I got her for the whole process beforehand. Like I did something like eight or 12 sessions with her to prepare for the birth. And that was, by the way, the best thing I could have ever done. Best investment ever. Please everybody go do that.

Oh, it changed my life. It wasn't even about the birth. It was about all the traumas and all the emotional stuff that was coming up, you know, around it. And despite it, it was really amazing. And the birth itself, yeah, I would have rather not be in the hospital, but it wasn't as emotionally charged because I was, I had processed.

And not only that, That process created the opening for the next birth to be at home with a midwife and a doula and all the things I wanted, like when I think of it, just as that one situation, I could have gotten upset and said like, Oh, I didn't get what I want, blah, blah, blah. But it was one step closer to the actual goal that I had.

And by respecting his needs at that point, the next baby, he was able to respect my needs and be like, yeah, you're right. This makes total sense. We got to do it this way. And it just created a real trust and a way for us to connect in a deeper way. So don't look at it as like this little minute, tiny thing.

Look at the big picture when you can both be in the same direction, looking at the same goal, it's much easier to say, what do we need to have in place in order for both of us to feel comfortable?

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  And that's one thing that I wanted to also bring up, like when you were saying, you know, what do we both want?

It's not one thing necessarily. It can be a list you know, of a few things and sitting down and having that conversation, like, what do I want? And then really, again, like you said, listening to each other, giving each other that space to question and then recognizing, as you said, you took a doula to help you with this, recognizing that you may not have all the answers.

And that's okay. There are people out there who can help you find those answers. You can, I've, I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with couples. You know to help them like find that place between them and sometimes they just their decision is Yeah, we're gonna go with a home birth and sometimes their decision is okay We're gonna go with a hospital birth and we feel good about that.

We feel that it's right for us at this stage and Because they've gotten all their questions answered and that like I think is a great One of those really important factors that, you know, I would say is the basis of my philosophy in general, is if you have a question, if you have a fear, explore it.

Go down that road in a safe space. Really ask the questions really get to the bottom of the fear of the worry of the fear of the unknown, or, you know, the really exploring that unknown and and then make a decision, make a decision from a place of knowing and not from a place of fear. So you can have, you know, you can have.

Another person in that conversation that can help you just, you know, yes, I have my bias and I come in and I say that straight up, but I also, you know, meaning, so I put that on the table and I say, but I'm not here about me. And hear about you and I want the two of you to come to an understanding of the information of the you know, I want you to feel totally comfortable asking all the questions And anything that I don't know I will refer you to resources that you can go ahead and explore on your own And I will answer all your questions and The evidence then has its own power and very often that's what men really need, is the information.

You know, to make that logical decision whereas the women are very often coming from that emotional place of knowing in their heart, like what's right for them. And so finding that balance between them, between the knowledge and the, and the emotion between the logic and the intuition and and not being afraid to ask the questions.

Yeah, not being afraid you said, you know, sometimes you may not have the answers and you have to get help I think it's most times even though I'm an expert at a lot of things I find that I cannot help myself, you know, a very easy example is the interior design Like, I am such a good designer. I can design for other people.

I can, you know, I do graphic design. I designed my husband's book. I am like, you know, I'm really fine with that. And yet when it comes to making my own decisions about certain things. I hire someone else because I tell her I cannot help myself. There's so much noise and, and inner conflict that comes up when I have to sit down and design for myself, that it's so much more helpful to have someone on the outside, just guiding the process and keeping you, you know, safe.

On, on route. Exactly. Exactly. And someone who doesn't have the emotional charge, like you said, about the topic that can, like, extract the, the true questions and get to the bottom of, of the information that the person needs to have in order to make a good decision. Right. I think also there's, You know, the fear factor is, is a real thing because like you said, it's pretty new to see birth as a medical issue.

And, And it's become so normal because of the fear that they've instilled in all of us. And I want to, I want to just say it was deliberate. It was a deliberate campaign to create fear around birth. And a lot of the sentences That we say about birth, about the statistics of deaths, you know, of mother, you know, maternal and infant deaths before hospitals.

And these are things that We're made up. Historically, like you can go back and I mean, don't don't search on the Internet because some of those things have been changed. But if you go back in books and you go back in, like, newspaper articles, you will find that, you know, in advertisements, 📍 that a lot of the fear and programming that we received and that we know today about birth was deliberately created in order to convince women and men, husbands that was one of the target audiences for the birth, you know, getting birth out of the home movement and away from midwives was targeting husbands and their fears and concerns.

And so those were all that was a deliberate campaign to, I did not know that. And that's really sad. It's sad. And even if it wasn't deliberate, I think it was. The reason why it became so popular. I'm saying like, I didn't know it was deliberate. And now that you say it, it was, I'm like, well, no surprise that we're all sitting around fearing birth.

But a lot of times the thing about fear is that we don't want to go there because it's so scary. So we won't ask the questions because that's opening up an entire can of worms that we don't want to deal with. And sometimes having somebody say, okay, let's talk about all the questions or even somebody addressing the questions before we even ask them can really help.

So if you're listening to this and you're into the whole, you know topic, just sit down one day and ask the questions, you know, send a list of questions. Yeah. I'll make it a series of blog posts. There you go. There you go. Yeah, absolutely. Just one more thing about you know, asking the questions, having a conversation with someone like me, a doula, a birth expert who is open, I think.

The important thing, too, is to choose somebody who has knowledge in more than just one direction. And I think that that's that's something that's going to be important, meaning if you want to find the arguments for hospital birth, you can find them anywhere. But if you want to find the evidence that doesn't support that then you have to go to somebody who is outside that system and then you can take their information or you can leave it, but Then you have it.

I want to also look at the other direction, how birth affects marriage, where the birth experience and having a baby in particular, and sometimes not having one is, you know, one of the bigger issues. Things that I see behind the scenes. One of the biggest triggers between husbands and wives that I have spoken to is when there isn't a baby.

And that's a really, really sad. It just breaks my heart because it is so painful. Obviously we can speak about it from a very logical place. You know, it was the best it was meant to be. That was exactly what you needed, whatever, like all the great things you could tell someone is still hurts.

Okay. So I'm putting it out there. It is. 100 percent legit that you feel the pain and that's how you're supposed to feel because you know It is what it is and a lot of times that really affects the marriage we should have done something different We should you should have done this and I should have done this and you know Why did this happen to us and what you know, and even there was one couple where

they, because of all the fogginess that was happening and, you know, everything in the hospital, they don't know where their baby is buried. So it's like, what, we're going to go back now, 18 years and ask them for the records and whatever. And like, you should have asked them right away and you should have asked.

And there's so much, trauma in the experience that was in process that it then goes and affects every other part of their lives in the way that they communicate about, you know, who's taking who to the doctor, you know, there's, it ends up playing a big role behind the scenes.

Yes I'm sorry. I said the whole stillborn thing because Regular birth and regular baby also has its effects on marriage and we could talk about that more but for some reason that came up for me, so Yeah, so let's I think because it needs a place it really needs a place. And thank God.

It's not a place that I am an expert in. I have, I have experienced stillbirth with one or two clients over the 17 years that I've been, you know, in this work, but it is not something that that I can call myself the support person for. So we can address it. And, and certainly give it its place and it's, and it's place of love.

And. Recognition. But I would say, actually, let's with that, put that story to the side because I think it is its own topic. And I think that there are people who can speak to that better than me. So. With that in mind, let's go back to the, the story of birth in general and the majority of experiences bar Hashem which do result in a, in a live healthy baby or a live baby with complications sometimes due to birth or whatever that story is, but and put the stillbirth story to the side.

And that is a story and it is, it is a story. It is a place. And, and we hold. And but I, I don't feel comfortable talking about that. I don't feel like I have the, the, the experience to to bring to that conversation. So I'm sending any of you ladies who have experienced that a tremendous amount of love and support from just being present with you in that place.

And know that there are people, and I can share some names with Barchan afterwards that she can bring on here and have that conversation. So going to how birth affects marriage, and there are a few different aspects. There's the birth experience itself, and I want to make a big statement about that.

The birth experience and the birth outcome are two different things. Just like any other experience in our life, experience has a place, What what we actually went through and the result is a different thing. So there's that there's now adding another human being to your family and integrating that person.

And there's the aspect. of the experience, which is the mother's experience and the father's experience. And those are two different experiences completely. And I'll give an example any like significant historical events. So when I was growing up, it was when, you know, JFK was assassinated, like my parents generation would talk about that or 9, 11, you know, more recently in New York or, and now today.

We're creating history. And, you know, in 20 years from now, people are going to ask you, where were you the night that, you know, of the 300 rockets from, from Iran and every single person, we all experienced the same thing. Every single one of us in the world and each of us will have a an entirely different story Where you were what you were doing at the time what you were thinking about how it affected you. Whether or not it was something that affected you going forward in your life or whether it was like, yeah You know, we went into the bomb shelter and we had a party and then it was over and you know, thank God. Or did it cause like trauma going forward?

So in any experience, each individual is having their own individual experience of that event. And we really need to give space to that. That the mother had her experience, the father had his experience, the baby had their own experience of that birth, and now you're, you're kind of bringing this all together into one unit that you have to go forward with.

With together. So first of all, just recognizing that in the birthing our stories workshop, we actually talk about usually in this, in the last class where we kind of close everything up. We talk about like, okay, and taking this home, you know, and how now you've had this processing experience and your husband didn't.

So how do you, you know, how do you kind of talk about this with him? And, I tell them the same thing we did here. You know, give him the space to tell his story, his version of the story, and it's not going to be easy for you, but don't speak. Don't say a thing. Let him just birth his version of the story.

And even if you remember things differently, even if you know that things were not the same, or even if you were thinking and feeling something that he didn't get, it will be so eye opening to just let, for him, for him, a catharsis to tell the story from his perspective, and for you to hear How he went through that experience.

It's really, that on its own can sometimes be an extremely healing and connecting intimate experience. Each of you telling your version of the birth without judgment and so that's one really useful tip, I think for going forward and kind of seeing where there are discrepancies in each of your version of the story and, and exploring those places.

Again, we should never be afraid to explore, because in a conversation. I'm sitting on the couch and you're sitting on the chair and we're having a cup of tea and nothing is happening. The words are not causing the thing to happen. So we can, you know, for example if we talk about, induction and the effects of induction on the woman and on the baby and, you know, and all of those things, we're not actually going through an induction, we're not actually having Pitocin, you know, in our bloodstream while we're talking about it.

So it's safe. It's safe to talk about it. It's safe to talk about the statistics. It's safe to talk about the The pros and the cons, what kind of situations it can actually be helpful. You know, when it should really never be used. And we can have that conversation and put all that information on the table.

And then each person can take what is right for them. And Make a decision based on that information and it's safe to have that conversation So when the when the couple is sitting and telling their birth story each of them from their own perspective that conversation is safe because you're just letting the words out and anything that comes up that's like well, I don't know.

I don't know what the answer to that is I don't know if it could have been different Write it down. Just write it down and then find somebody that you can ask Maybe find three people that you can ask and get three different opinions. And that's one another way that you can just validate and and really understand each other and like like you said Take that experience into the future to make your next birth better or if you're done having kids by the way Women who you know, tell me oh, I have a birth to process but it was like seven years ago I'm not having any more kids and I tell them You have a legacy.

That trauma that you're carrying, that's creating the birth culture for your next generation. And whether you only have boys, or whether you have girls, or girls and boys, what you're passing on, whether you're even expressing it in words or not, you're bringing that into their experience. And this is an opportunity to make birth better for your sons, for your daughters, for the world, when you process your own experience.

So it doesn't have to be. In preparation for another future birth. It can be in preparation for births of the future as well. Yeah. There's still value in that. You know, you're saying boys and girls, something really blew my mind. We had a guest who was a doctor. And he's one of my husband's students.

He came here, we're talking to him, whatever. And I just, everything I said, he was like, yeah, yeah. And everything he said, I was agreeing to. And I was like, how is a doctor speaking this way? Like so holistically and gets all the things I'm saying. And he's like, because my mother was like that, you know, and I just saw how she lived and to me, that was normal.

And so within the. Medical world and the medical field. I found myself having to really like question and inquire and, and raise my hand on things that didn't line up and didn't match up and like, wow, you guys, we, we don't only have an effect on our girls and their births. We have an effect on all of you, like the men too.

And can you imagine what a husband? He would make when his wife is having a baby and he understands not just what he was fed by the medical system as being a doctor and taking that one or two courses on birth, but, you know, really looking into it and knowing what to look for, it's just amazing. By the way, it's an interesting point to make that how many.

Medical professionals in the birth field choose home birth. Yeah. Because they know what happens in the hospital. It's a thing. You know, it goes the other way, too. The fear that comes from seeing how things go in the hospital can, you know, can cause them to want to have their birth in their hospital where they know all the staff and whatever.

But it's, it's a thing. a fairly common experience for medical professionals in the birth field men and women to choose home birth because they're in the hospital system. Wow. That's amazing. It's like it reminds me of My husband says that all the people who design the phones and the gamification of a phone They don't let their kids have phones They know, they know.

My husband's like, they're not giving their kids phones. Why are we giving our kids phones? And it's like as a school, you know, requires it like, I don't know. I can't fight too many fights. But yeah, it's, it's amazing. It really is such an eye opener. Sometimes you don't realize how much knowing. Can change your opinion.

Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah. So it's just, yeah. Another aspect to keep in mind. I, I think just to wrap it up, I want the listeners, you to bring to your awareness that birth isn't just something that happens and then you move on. It has a lot of. Effects behind the scenes. And like Ayelet said, sometimes seven years later, you could look back and say, yeah, I have something to process, but what's the point.

The point is that you've been carrying it for seven years, right. And, or you can. Be going through life and going through all the motions and have more kids and move on and move on and move on. And eventually turn around and be like, remember that first birth? You know how upset I am about that? And I never told you and blah, blah, blah.

And then like all the passive aggressive energies I'm sending my husband is all because he didn't do this, that, or the other, when he was told or asked or whatever, why, why are we carrying that? Why are we letting it? Run the programming behind the scenes. If all we need to do is just unravel it.

And it's why it's so important to bring this up. When I chose birth as a monthly theme and there's birth and God and birth and marriage, birth and business, birth and you birth and marriage really speaks to me because. of the effects that it has on marriage for many, many years to come, right? It's not just, Oh, we, went through the birth and this, you know, her opinion, my opinion and blah, blah, blah.

And she listened or didn't listen to me. I respected her, didn't respect me. You know, all the things that could go through, you know, in that before and after period. But realizing that If we don't take the time to at least process it within ourselves, we won't be able to Talk about other things and go deep with other things and really connect On that level that we want to connect with with our husbands Because there's always that thing lingering on the side saying like you can't go there.

This is a no go zone You know and anytime you have that about anything it muddies the water Yeah, yeah, and it's a, it's a, it should be like an alarm for you to go and explore that. Explore is, I guess, one of my key words. But yeah, it should be a place to go and ask that question. Why are we not going there?

I like the word explore. I'm thinking that's, that's a good, like, word of the year thing, you know? Explore. Explore. I like that. Yeah. Wow. This was an amazing conversation. Is there anything else you want to wrap up and leave our listeners with? I would just say that wherever you're at in your birthing cycle whether it's before having kids in between children preparing for a birth needing to process a previous birth again, whether it was a positive experience or negative experience.

There could be something to process there to ask questions about don't be afraid to explore. Don't be afraid to, or be brave enough rather, let's go into the positive language. Be brave enough to give the space to yourself to ask the questions that are sitting on your heart. And even if it's not what the majority of your friends or community members or parents

are asking and you know, the words that are going through your mind or maybe I'm crazy. If you're thinking maybe I'm crazy, then you need to find somebody who's just as crazy as you to talk to about that. And I'm one of those people. I'm crazy. But I'm not the only one. And there are absolutely a women who can guide you, who can help you just sort through all of the questions in your mind that you might have taken for granted up until now, and also help you as a couple to go through those questions together when the two of you have a difference of opinion.

I would encourage you to reach out. I love that. I think it's, it's like you said, find, find the people who are going to help you work through it. Sometimes it's sitting down with the couple, like you do. My specialty is sitting down just with the wife because I found that that works the best in, Resolving a lot of the marriage stuff is giving her the tools to bring it home.

Like, I love what you said about the end of your workshop. Here are the tools for you to help your husband where he doesn't have to come here and like be pulled to the principal's office and be told you have to sit through a workshop and listen to all the other guys. Like they're not, some of them are not into it, but if you empower the women to have the skills to be able to do that when they get home, that's the way to really change it.

That's the, that's what I've found to really work. So I only work with women and I find that a lot of times it affects the way you run your business. And that that's when it comes up and it affects the way that you connect to your husband because as we said, it is sitting there on your shoulder waiting for you to address it.

So definitely an important point. Thank you. Thank you. I yell it for being here. How can people find you and work with you? You can reach out to me the best way really is on either WhatsApp or just call. I will put my number here. I don't check Facebook often but if you leave me a message there I will see it, you know, once a month or so.

But you can find me there. And then you'll put in the show notes, a link to schedule a call with me, a free, totally free call, just, you know, let's talk, let's hear where you're at and what you're needing. And sometimes I'm the one who can support you with that. And sometimes I'll know the person who can be the right support for you.

I really have no ego in this. I want people to be helped. So you can reach out to me that way as well. For sure. I mean, that's the whole point of this podcast. I bring in all these experts, and we just want you to find the person that's right for you, right? I don't really care if you end up working with me or with someone else.

I want you helped. I want you to work with someone because the power of getting out of yourself. And having someone who has been there knows the process can walk you through it can hold your hand. That is so incredible. And it is a gift. It's a gift that you allow yourself to receive when you're ready for it.

So that is why we're both doing this. And all of us, everybody who's been on my show is , one of those amazing people who you can definitely tap into and get the help from. So thank you so much, Ayelet, for coming. Thank you for being at my birth twice. It was my pleasure and my honor to be with you for your birth.

It was amazing. And thank you for having me on the podcast. It's been great. Thank you. All the best. And don't forget to be connected for real. Come back next week for another amazing 📍 episode.

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Can you share it with them? I am Robinson Bat chen Grossman from connectedforreal. com. Thank you so much for listening and don't forget you can be connected for real.