John Ryder: Adventures in Navigating the Music and Creative Fields

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:00:01]:
Welcome back to the Weird and strong podcast, folks. I am your host, Jeremy Grunsteiner, and we've got an amazing musician that I have had the pleasure to get to know over the past year. We've got John Ryder on the show, the mastermind behind ghost made cellophane and empires of delirium. We talk about his path as a musician, where that has taken him both geographically, musically, and artistically, and also what's coming up for him in the future. So stay tuned, and let's get weird. Welcoming John Ryder to the weird and strong podcast. How you doing, man?

John Ryder [00:00:37]:
You know, I'm doing great. How you doing?

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:00:39]:
I'm doing. I'm doing real well. It's great to see you again. It's been about a month and a half since we've seen each other, and, yeah, I'm glad that you're here. And I have a weird question for you. Are you ready?

John Ryder [00:00:53]:
Yeah. Shoot.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:00:56]:
Is a quesadilla a grilled cheese sandwich?

John Ryder [00:01:03]:
I would say no.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:01:05]:
Okay, fine.

John Ryder [00:01:06]:
I would say no. I think a grilled cheese sandwich is like brother and sister with, like, a melt. Okay. It's a type of, like, grain breaded material that's different.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:01:20]:
Okay.

John Ryder [00:01:21]:
I feel like. I feel like if you did, like, um, you know, tortilla, it's. It's just a different type of family of grain. Yeah. I think that that's how I would differentiate the two.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:01:34]:
Okay.

John Ryder [00:01:35]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:01:36]:
So if you made a grilled cheese sandwich with potato bread, would it still count as a grilled cheese sandwich?

John Ryder [00:01:44]:
I would say so, yeah. I think it's the. It's the overall, like, end texture of, like, how it's. The bread is, like, risen from, like, bread versus, like, a tortilla.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:01:55]:
Sure. So, like, if you made it with a pita, it wouldn't count. It would be.

John Ryder [00:02:01]:
It'd be closer to the tortilla. Yeah, I feel, yeah. Yeah. I actually, like, low key. Worked in the bakery for, like, three years, so maybe I have a slight bias to that.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:02:14]:
But, like, so leavened versus unleavened. And that's the determination for the grilled cheese sandwich for you.

John Ryder [00:02:22]:
For me? Yeah. What about you?

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:02:27]:
Well, this is a complicated question for me, it's like, I would say, yeah, it's a grilled cheese sandwich, but ultimately it's also a salad.

John Ryder [00:02:37]:
A salad?

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:02:38]:
Yeah.

John Ryder [00:02:38]:
How's it a salad?

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:02:40]:
So the definition of a salad, one of the definitions of a salad is any incongruous mixture.

John Ryder [00:02:48]:
Oh.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:02:49]:
So, like, any mixture of ingredients is technically a salad. And so because it's not suspended in liquid, which would be a soup. It means that a quesadilla is a salad. So any of you wanting, wanting to get in your extra salads, just know a KCD is also a salad. Yeah. There's a very fun GitHub repository that talks about this, which is a salad theory. So proposing that all things in the universe are either a super salad based on their suspension in a liquid. So human beings could be postulated as walking soups or walking salads, depending on how you argue the point, based off of their criteria, which is just fun.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:03:39]:
Fun thought experiments that people can run and play around with. Like, the definition of words gets real.

John Ryder [00:03:46]:
Weird in the way it does. Yeah, I'm definitely a soup.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:03:52]:
You're definitely a soup.

John Ryder [00:03:53]:
Yeah. Probably something spicy.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:03:55]:
Feeling like a spicy soup today.

John Ryder [00:03:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. Some spicy ramen. Yeah, for the butthole. I'm just saying.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:04:04]:
That's great. Awesome, man. Let's talk more about you. For those that haven't been formally introduced to you, this is your ability to be able to share what makes John weird. What are the ways that you've shown up unconventionally in the world? What does that path look like for you?

John Ryder [00:04:28]:
Obviously, I'm very much into the music aspect of life, and I feel like, you know, I've kind of came in as an outcast into, like, what? You know, I'm from Minneapolis, but, like, the Minnesota music scene because I spent so much time in Los Angeles and some time up in Fargo, and I kind of came in out of left field with, like, I can video edit, I can, you know, use Photoshop, you know, record most of my own stuff, mix master most of my own stuff, you know, from, like, a omni perspective of, like, what it means to, like, make content as a music creator. And I feel like, you know, it's not a knock on the music scene currently. I do think it's a really good music scene, dare I say, better than the La music scene. But a lot of people are still kind of stuck, you know, in the prehistoric era of music, which is I want to, like, play guitar, and that's it. You know, I want to play drums. That's it. And I feel like if you want to have any kind of success and the music scapegoat nowadays, you have to be able to do a lot of different things, and not just the tech stuff on the back end, but also the social media on the front end and then just to think outside the box. So many metal bands have someone dying in their music video or blood or whatever.

John Ryder [00:06:12]:
And just thinking outside the box, being willing to take risks. And I think that's kind of where I feel unconventional, because, I mean, if you've heard, you know, like, empires of delirium, it's very much unconventional. It's a bass, vocals, and drums, and then the same thing musically for ghost made cellophane, which is, like, you know, right now, like, hip hop songwriters and, like, any kind of really heavy metals doing well in Minnesota. And it's a more melodic, ambient soundscape, but heavy vibe. And I think just coming in with that different perspective has set me apart in either band that I decide to make a focal point.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:07:01]:
That's really cool in looking at that. So you talked about having these different skills, like, just the video editing the Photoshop and then getting used to and being really present on social media, because I noticed that, like, damn, John John's got this figured out, like, sitting there, like, for my own business, sitting and taking notes, even though it's not necessarily promoting music, but, like. Like, taking note of how somebody like you is able to bring that forward. What was that path like for you to learn how to balance all of these different roles or how to start to even just learn how to. How to effectively edit a video or make a social media post? What was that process like for you?

John Ryder [00:07:50]:
Honestly, it was really interesting. I've always been a huge fan of film, so that was kind of my. That was kind of my path as far as, like, okay, well, you know, I did, like, maybe like, a year and a half of film in college and then, like, a semester of web design and, like, a year of photography and Photoshop. And, like, it was interesting because I. When I took the classes, I wasn't really good at it. And then as I wanted to focus on music and, you know, you probably. I don't know if you've experienced this, but people want to, like, charge you so much money for content. And it's, you know, especially, like, when I lived down in LA, it was just like everybody was just taking advantage of.

John Ryder [00:08:41]:
There's, like, a stereotype for musicians on LA. It's the person who does. Who knows, like, three guitar chords and has a lot of money. And so that person, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, I'll pay $1,000 for this person to do this photo shoot for me and five, $6,000 for that person to do that video for me. And, you know, for me as a blue collar person, it's not really realistic. So I kind of went through and sucked at it for probably a good two or three years. I went back and looked at photos recently, and I was like, in videos, and I was like, man, using Final cut Pro X and those videos, someone can make a better video now on their phone than, you know, the numerous hours I spent on that one very poorly edited video. So, you know, it's weird for me because I started from a place of, well, it's.

John Ryder [00:09:44]:
I don't have any other path because I can't afford to pay people to do stuff for me. And then you kind of. When you. When I have done that, you. It's out of your hands. And I could speak about that here in a sec. But, yeah, to be on the flip side of sucking and then having people come up to me and, like, I've had bands locally ask me to, like, film videos for them and. Or do content for them.

John Ryder [00:10:11]:
And that is encouraging because it tells me that I'm doing something right as far as that aspect, creating something that looks professional, which I think is really important and I think really separates, you know, a band that's going to be a local band with no endpoint versus a band that, you know, could go on tour, you know, and there's exceptions, obviously, but. So that's been really interesting for me. Yeah. And I always ask people. I lean on people, like, you know, I ask Jay a lot of questions, you know? Yeah. But, yeah. Do you want me to expand on that at all or if you'd like.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:10:55]:
To, you know, I think that's really great. And, like, the. The lesson that I'm hearing from you on that is something I talk about with people that I work with, and I hear this reinforced for me by, like, the coaches and mentors that I have in my life, as well. Like, yeah, the first time you do something, it's. It's. It's not going to be great or you're going to look back at it and go, ooh, that was woof. But that's the. That's the point of growth, and that's the point of.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:11:26]:
Of being able to get better. It's like we have this weird, this, like, strange notion in our head that, like, oh, I can't let anybody see this because I want my first time to be perfect, or I want my first. The first thing I put out to be the most perfect thing ever. It's like, look at. Look at some of, like, your favorite bands or, like, your favorite artists and whatnot, and how many of them really love their, like, first albums.

John Ryder [00:11:54]:
Like, still, like, a lot of them.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:11:56]:
Truly actually love them. And it'd be like, you look at, you know, you look at big, big bands like Metallica and, like, they wrote a lot of their first stuff before they were even 18. Like, it's like, yeah, they still play it and, like, it still hits, but, like, they're so far removed from who they were when they wrote those things. Or, like, the quality of the songwriting or the even looking to somebody like Glenn Danzig, who just wanted to completely have nothing to ever do with the misfits ever again because that was his high school band, of course, he moved on and beyond that. And so I think it's really cool for you to reiterate that it's a process of getting more reps and it's a process of continual improvement that, yes, your first product and your first post or your first video is going to be not as great. And if you keep going, you're going to get to a point like John just talked about where people are going to be asking you, like, hey, how do I do this? Hey, could you help me with this? Would you do bill? Like, would you film a video for me or do my social posts for me? You never know where those things may take you.

John Ryder [00:13:02]:
Yeah. And it's not just like, at the beginning, you know, of, like, adulthood or life, when people have that struggle. I think, you know, I feel that way anytime you start a new project, you know, especially if it's like something that you never, like, expanded on previously. Like, for me, I kind of grew up listening to, like, pop and punk and hip hop, this weird combination stuff, and never, like, when I first got into music, it was pop punk, and then it became, like, screamo. Everybody says deftones, even though I didn't know who the Deftones were when you recorded the album, like, five years ago. But anyways, but, you know, with the empires of delirium stuff, I never ever wrote music in that genre in my life or saying in that style. And it was really infuriating for me to, like, go up on stage and, like, people who paid hard, their hard earned money to come out and then just not put a performance on that I was happy with. And I feel that way, too.

John Ryder [00:14:16]:
About ghost made. I feel like it's been really interesting for me because every show we get better and I'm realizing it at a faster pace than I did with empires. But I think that's part of the process of, like, you know, I hadn't touched that band in four years, whatever, basically since I came back from LA. So to pick it back up regardless of what project or adventure you do, you're going to fall flat in your face. If I wanted to go do web design or start a tech company tomorrow, I would probably have a good couple of years of struggling until I could figure out, oh, this is, you know, these are the pieces that I need to know, you know.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:15:03]:
Yeah, yeah. That's speaking to something that's really important for, you know, it's a, it's a good reinforcement for me of starting a new business. And we want that, like, overnight success. It's like, keep showing up, keep putting the reps in, you know, the days, the days where you feel like, am I even. Do I even know what I'm doing anymore? Like that self doubt. Those are the days that are golden, especially when you continue going and you're like, there's not that. The path forward is, I have that choice. I can stop.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:15:43]:
I could take a break, but I can still keep going. And it's that continual push forward that gets us to that point where, like, you're talking about being able to look back and see the successes or being able to realize that, oh, you know, I've done this with another band already, so I know some of the pitfalls or I know some of the places where I can keep myself focused and keep it moving. And so things move at a much more accelerated pace because you've already done it before.

John Ryder [00:16:14]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It just makes life more exciting, you know what I'm saying? Like, going and starting adventures or, like, watching and being a part of something and helping it grow is exciting because, like you said, you could stop, you could take a break, or you could keep going. And if you stop, you don't ever know where it's going to end up at and what experiences you might have, good, bad, or in between. And I've learned definitely in the past where when I've chosen to stop, I've pretty much always regretted, minus college. Yeah. But, yeah.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:17:00]:
Cool in looking at this, because you have quite a few creative skills behind what you've been bringing to the world. Were you always a creative kid? Was this something that you were drawn to early on, or is this something that has evolved, like, evolved for you over a longer period of time?

John Ryder [00:17:24]:
Well, it's kind of twofold. I've always been interested in creative stuff, but I never really did it, and there's multiple factors to it. We were really poor growing up at times. I remember, like, having to ask the teacher to borrow, like, a piece of paper and a pencil and writing and, like, using every corner of that piece of paper because I didn't want to ask for another piece of paper because it was too embarrassing, you know. And so we didn't really get the opportunity when I was younger. And, you know, neither did we have a lot of people in my life that were, you know, creatively adventurous. You know, my brother is. He sings not in bands, but he sing in choir.

John Ryder [00:18:20]:
And then, you know, whenever there's, like, an event, he's always singing for, like, a wedding or something. And then, you know, my grandma played piano, but I never really got to see her play piano. She just had it in her house. My great grandma, I should say, had it in her house and, like, stopped playing it by the time I was old enough to understand why it was there. You know, that's literally it. I. My mom wasn't a really creative person. She was a single parent with five kids, so didn't really have time for that.

John Ryder [00:18:57]:
But I was always jealous of the musicians that were around me, you know, like, I wish I could afford to have a guitar or, like, you know, we grew up in Minneapolis, but we moved to Lake Park, Minnesota, which is over by Detroit Lakes.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:19:13]:
Oh, yeah. My family, part of my family is from Lake park, so.

John Ryder [00:19:16]:
Oh, wow. That's crazy. Yeah, yeah. What, what part? Like, are you. Oh, yeah.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:19:22]:
So it'd be my mom's. My mom's mom's side.

John Ryder [00:19:26]:
Okay.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:19:27]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. Great grandparents are buried out there, so. Yeah. Been out there times.

John Ryder [00:19:35]:
Is it the cemetery right outside of, uh, right side town on the left hand side?

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:19:39]:
Yep, yep.

John Ryder [00:19:40]:
Yeah.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:19:41]:
The northwest side of town. Yep, yep.

John Ryder [00:19:43]:
Yeah, yeah, we lived on second street for quite a bit.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:19:46]:
Okay.

John Ryder [00:19:47]:
Yeah. So the main street. Yeah, but. And then we lived out. I think it's county road five. Okay, maybe I'm wrong. The. It's been so long since I've been out there, but, um.

John Ryder [00:20:02]:
Yeah, there's no music shops over there, you know.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:20:04]:
No, you got to travel quite a ways for. To be able to. To get into some of that stuff. Yeah, yeah.

John Ryder [00:20:12]:
And, like, I mean, Detroit Lakes used to have a music shop and a bookstore. And I remember being probably about 1617, working at Godfather's Pizza and walking across the street and spending my 50, $60 I made on that paycheck for some comic books, you know, and some, like, CDs. Like, that was. That was, like, my step into, like, the creative world. And, you know, I'm old enough and I'm not old, and Jay and I are, you know, the same age. I'm a few months older but, you know, the Internet wasn't always a big thing when I was a kid, and when we did have it was dial up, you know, especially living in a.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:21:01]:
In a rural, rural midwestern. It just wasn't small towns. Like, it just wasn't as important versus if you were in a larger city. It's like, oh, that was much earlier adoption of using those tools for business or creativity or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Ryder [00:21:20]:
And I would say it wasn't until about 20 to 21 that I actually really started to, like, you know, try, like, doing music. I remember, like, I bought my first guitar. It was a blue upper phone Les Paul studio for, like, $329 from Best Buy when we used to sell music here.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:21:43]:
Yep.

John Ryder [00:21:43]:
And, you know, and I. There's a song called one last breath by Creed, and I remember my friend showed me how to play it, and I spent probably five or 6 hours trying to play that intro, and I couldn't figure it out, so that's how terrible I was. But, you know, you start and then you, you know, expand yourself. I think the biggest thing is for me, and I encourage people who are creative to do this, but to go out and travel and, like, see how other places in the country or the world are doing stuff and, like, you're going to grow a lot, you know, because, you know, like, people might think of, like, Minneapolis St. Paul's being a really big area, but, like, you know, there's limitations. And, you know, I feel like we're behind other parts of the country as far as technology goes. And even, like, I remember, like, going to college here and then going out to do a year of college in Los Angeles. And, like, I was like, holy shit.

John Ryder [00:22:57]:
Like, the textbooks that we're learning from are, like, 15 to 20 years behind, like, what's actually going on right now.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:23:05]:
Yeah.

John Ryder [00:23:07]:
And so. And on top of that, like, most of my classes out there didn't use textbooks. Everything was on your computer. You logged into, like, a server, and it was a lot easier for people to be able to study on, like, an iPad, you know, versus, like, an actual hard copy textbook, you know? And so, you know, I would have never had that growth had it not went out and ventured to some place new, you know?

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:23:33]:
Yeah. What was the. What was the driver? Or what was the inspiration to go from the Minneapolis area to study in LA? What drove you there?

John Ryder [00:23:47]:
It's actually kind of a funny story. So I was going to Minnesota State University, Moorhead, and, you know, I was kind of. I knew I didn't want to be up there you know, Fargo Moorhead for me is just not the place for me. Never really has been my cat loves, but. So I remember going into a professor's office. Doctor Carter was his name, and I sat in the front row for two years in his classes and aced every single class and every single test and in the hallways, he pretended like he didn't know who I was and. But he was just this ego thing and he picked his favorites. And no offense to Doctor Carter, he's a very successful musician in his own right, and a better musician than I could probably ever hope to be, but at least from a traditional standpoint.

John Ryder [00:24:50]:
But I went to his office one day, and I was considering Texas, actually, because I had relatives in Texas, and I got accepted to the University of Texas in Austin. And I went to his office and I just said, hey, can I borrow, like five minutes of your time? And he's like, sure, you know, and I was like. And I sat down and said, you know, I know you and I have never really seen eye to eye and we've never really had conversations, you know, aside from answering questions in class. And. But I respect you cause you're a brutally honest person. And so I just asked him. I was like, you know, I got accepted to the University of Texas, was considering doing an exchange program and then finishing my college there. What do you think? And then he just kind of sat there, leaned back in his chair, you know, put pen to his, you know, his mouth, and just kind of thinking.

John Ryder [00:25:49]:
He leans forward and he's like, I think that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard. It's like, I was like, oh. And then he let it pause there for a little bit because he's a big storyteller. And he goes, you know, from what I gather, you don't really care to do traditional music. It's like, no, not really. You know, I mean, I've done film scoring and written for podcasts, but I don't want to be in an orchestra or teacher, so. And he's like, you know, if you go to Texas, I promise you this. Like, you are going to find yourself in the same position that you are here, which from what I gather, is unhappy if you really want to test yourself.

John Ryder [00:26:38]:
It's like, I taught at, you know, California State University before. You know, it's like, go out to LA, find out if you consume the sharks. You know, you're going to find out really quickly whether or not you have what it takes to have any kind of, you know, career in music and I took that advice. I was just like, all right. And the story goes, is about a one way plane ticket to Los Angeles. I had enough money for three days of staying in a hotel, and if I went beyond the three days, I wouldn't have enough money to put money towards an apartment or room for rent. Like, my budget was literally three days. I didn't work in three days.

John Ryder [00:27:30]:
I'd be. I'd be taking what money I had left to buy a plane ticket back.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:27:35]:
Yep.

John Ryder [00:27:35]:
Had, like, a. My, not even $800. And so, yeah, plane ticket within three days. Got registered for classes and got a job and found a place to be. And mind you, at that point in time, I didn't even have a car. So to be able to go from, like, lax, you know, and, you know, California State University, North Ridge is deep in the valley, so you're talking 30 something miles from La. Extra. Yeah, deep in the valley.

John Ryder [00:28:10]:
And to be able to figure out in a city that I never been in, you know, and so it takes a lot of resolve, and most people would probably break. You know, I have siblings who I've tried to encourage to, like, come to the cities and, like, there's just no way, you know, to them, Minneapolis St. Paul is just too big, scary. Way too scary. And I'm just. I mean, it is a scary place. I don't, don't get me wrong, I've never. The only place, and I've been, you know, to New York just twice this year for, you know, good, almost two and a half weeks.

John Ryder [00:28:51]:
And obviously, like, five and a half years in LA. And Minneapolis is probably one place that I've been where I'm like, I need to watch when I get into my car, I need to make sure I lock stuff, watch around me, like, because I know, and having grown up here, there's a lot of violence here, you know, um, you know, and I've never felt more unsafe than, you know, being here just because I think a lot of people are angry here.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:29:23]:
Yeah.

John Ryder [00:29:24]:
You know?

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:29:25]:
Yeah.

John Ryder [00:29:26]:
So it's a. It's a beautiful, you know, it's a beautiful, ugly thing, you know? And I remember, like, when I went to LA, people were like, why are you so angry all the time? I'm like, I'm trying not to be.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:29:36]:
Yeah. You know, we become the reflection of what we surround ourselves with in a lot of ways. And so if you have, you're surrounded by a bunch of angry people, you tend to be a bit of an angry person.

John Ryder [00:29:48]:
Yeah.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:29:49]:
Yeah. There's, like, a. Some interesting, like, I'm going to butcher these things because I don't have them right at my fingertips. But there's research that shows, like, if your best friend's friend is a smoker, you're much more likely to be a smoker, even though you may not even know who that person is. You may have never even talked to them before, but because of that associative effect, because your best friend is subtly influenced by their friend who smokes, and that starts to bring that behavior into you as well.

John Ryder [00:30:20]:
It's funny that you say that because, like, the older I've gotten, the more, the smaller my circle gets. And, like, I mean, you know, these people, but, you know, like, I'd probably say on a daily or weekly basis, you know, I'll talk to Corey. I'll talk to Chris. Corey, not so much because I know he's traveling right now, but Jay probably almost every other day, you know, my girlfriend Trinity, my mom, like, I'll talk to people who, like, like, will be honest with me slash build me up and, like, inspire me. And, I mean, and I think that's so important because, like, you know, I couldn't imagine being the same person that hung out with, you know, decade later or whatever after high school, hung out with the same people in the same small town, you know, if you want to be creative, if you want to be strong, if you want to be your weirdest self, using some words there, you know, like, find the people who, like, you know, will allow you to do that and kind of, you know, stick. Stick to them, you know what I mean? So it's. Yeah, I think, you know, that's a big part of success, too, is just, you know, knowing we can go to for an honest but, like, slightly cushioned perspective. You know what I mean?

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:31:58]:
Yeah. Well, you know, the people, you know, the people that'll give it to you real, you know. And for me, I've been deep in the self development world and consuming a lot of that type of content and just learning a lot of the things, like we, we just talked about. But it's. It's finding the people that will call you forward, the people who will, who will challenge you. Like, one of the coolest parts is, for me, I was meeting with the former owner of the gym that I worked at with last week and was working through some ideas for my own business and some different directions that I want to go with it. And we started talking through one, and she was helping guide me through of asking questions about where I was going with this. And I said, I had two paths, and we were feeling really good about that one.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:32:53]:
She said, well, it's the second one. And I tell her the idea. She's like, no, just, no, that's the same thing you've been struggling with right now that hasn't been working for you. This other option is something that's completely different from what you've been struggling with. So, like, why would you believe that doing the exact same thing with just a different, you know, different lipstick on the pig is going to make it less of a pig? Like, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe select the one that isn't a pig speaking in some abstracts here. But, like, being able to have those people in our lives is drastically underrated. People get really, really comfortable in their comfort zones of the people who are going to just tell them, it's just all right, or you'll figure it out. No big deal.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:33:41]:
Yeah. And meanwhile, you're still stuck in that space of, well, how you feel stuck in that. It's great to have that cheerleader for you, but having those people that can call you forward or call you on your own bullshit, where you're like, do you really think that's a great idea? Or, hey, I see you actually succeeding in this. Going this direction more versus this direction and being able to, like, point out those things that we don't see for ourselves. Super underrated, super important.

John Ryder [00:34:13]:
Yeah, I've noticed that a lot with. With my girlfriend. She. I'll be doing a song or, like, working on something, and she'll just be like, oh, I really like that. Or, like. Like, we had rehearsal, and I was just trying something different, and she just, like, was just. I don't like that. That.

John Ryder [00:34:35]:
No, like. And then she was. I. She had recorded it, and I disagreed with her at the time. Cause, like, nah, like, I was feeling it. And then she went back. I went back and watched the video, and I was like, oh, shit, like, she's right. Like, I was.

John Ryder [00:34:49]:
So it just didn't make sense at all, you know? So, you know, that's been really nice, especially because, like, we live together, and I get that on, like, a daily basis of encouragement, but, like, perspective, you know? And, yeah, that's. That's been really nice.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:35:08]:
Yeah, that's really cool. And also, I would like bringing up something that you had talked about earlier of, like, you know, things perhaps in certain music scenes or certain. Certain groups, really struggling to, like, step outside of that box where, like, everything starts to sound the same, or they're. They're. They're running. It's almost like they're running a play out of a playbook of, like, how to be a band. Like they're following a step by step guide. Everybody starts to sound the same.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:35:39]:
Like, I was just watching a video last week with, with Glenn Fricker from Supernatural studios that, you know, everybody uses as far as guitar players go. Everybody uses the same speaker. Everybody wants to use a celestial vintage 30, and then everybody starts sounding exactly the same because that's what's predictable. That's what they know from the records that they like so that they can emulate those. But we end up in the space of everything feeling homogenized and not creative. And to what we've been speaking on, of, like, how much. How much impact has it been for you to surround yourself with musicians and creative people who have very different tastes or very different perspectives? How has that influenced your ability to create or your ability to create something different that isn't quite as mainstream or quite as easily defined?

John Ryder [00:36:38]:
Honestly, it's been interesting. Like I said, I feel like I grew up listening. If I talk to other hard rock middle musicians or bands in the, in the tri state area, they. A lot of them would probably say certain similar bands that they like or they listen to growing up. And then I'm over here, like, oh, you know, I listen to, like, Michael Jackson and, like, David Bowie, which I think some people might list smashing pumpkins. Like, had such a different. I had to, like, learn how to, like, live within the spectrum of, like, what music is popular now, if that makes sense. And it's been really interesting to ask people, like, does this make sense? Because, like, you know, I feel like I'm writing it from, you know, perspective of someone who, like, you know, loves that type of music and, you know, grew up listening and just adoring soundtrack music, you know.

John Ryder [00:37:44]:
You know, I love. I love, like, film scores and stuff. So it's been different because, like, for some people, it's like, they look for other people to, like, give them different perspective. For me, I've had that, but I've also had people, like, where I'm like, does this make sense? Because I don't. You know, it's like, I'll use, like, I'll use, like, 30 seconds to Mars, for example. So, like, they came out in early two thousands. And I don't know if you're familiar with, like, the catalog, like, the first album. And I was okay.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:38:18]:
I was actually regional director of their street team for the upper, upper midwest.

John Ryder [00:38:22]:
Oh, wow. That's crazy.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:38:24]:
I'm familiar. I'm very familiar with the 30 seconds to Mars.

John Ryder [00:38:26]:
Okay.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:38:27]:
That's the same. Yeah.

John Ryder [00:38:29]:
So the music that they came out with at the time, there's aspects of stuff that's, you know, similar to other genres. You know, you got a little bit of deftones in there. You got a little bit of, like, butt rock in there. And then obviously, aesthetically, in the early two thousands, they were kind of fitting in with that black eyeliner look. But even from the first album to, like, their most recent album, it's like, they're somewhat similar to, like, what's going on in the music scene right now, but they're so dramatically different. You know, like, if. What is that song? It's like a seven minute song on their first album, Buddha's for Mary.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:39:17]:
Oh, yeah. Yep.

John Ryder [00:39:18]:
Yeah, yeah. Like, that doesn't really, like when that came out. Like, there are not a lot of other bands that sounded like that. You know what I mean?

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:39:28]:
Yeah, well, had that, like, it had a bit of what you're talking about of, like, some ambient, soundscape y type stuff, and then just, like, different twists and turns that went along with it well, but it still maintained, like, one melodic through line during the whole thing. But it wasn't your typical, like, four chords, then we get a breakdown and then, like, a sweeping chorus. It was. It was a little bit. It was much more different than what was being brought forward as, like, pop radio or, like. Yeah, popular rock or modern rock, however you want to classify that.

John Ryder [00:40:07]:
Yeah, so, yeah, I feel like that's been my. Because, like, you know, like, in the earlier stuff, like, a lot of their stuff was, like, chop detuning and, you know, just open five, three more, you know, whatever. And. But that was, like, the similarity that would, like, connect them to what was going on musically, but everything else was different. And, you know, they didn't really grow up listening to, like, they grew up as artists and, like, enjoying all different types of music, not just rock, you know, and so, yeah, there's definitely, like, even, like, you know, for ghost mits elephant, like, in 2024, I want to do, like, a lot more, like, metal core stuff. And, like, just because this is my first, like, official year of playing music, like, in Minnesota ever, which is crazy. And I've noticed, like, what seems to go over a lot more than others and, like, the ambient stuff that we're doing with ghost made with the screaming and stuff, like, some of it went over well, some of it not so much. And I still love to do it, but I was like, I'm going to write two EPs.

John Ryder [00:41:17]:
One and continuing the journey that I'm on right now, but another that's, like, just straight up, like, hard rock and metal core. And, like, because when we played, like, the one song that would be in that genre, like, mankato, like, was, like, the first time people ever moshed, you know, that was really cool. And then we played the rest of the set, and they just kind of stood there.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:41:40]:
Yeah.

John Ryder [00:41:41]:
So, you know, it's knowing how to, like, cater to your audience, and it's okay to, you know. You know, to sound similar at times because, like, that's what people know. And then sprinkle in some difference, you know, or do something similar that they know but in a different way. Yeah, it's. It's, you know. Yeah, I'm the annoying person that I have a few people that I, like, continuously send shit to, and they're like, this sounds very similar to what you just did, but, like, don't you hear the difference? And they're like, oh, my God, like.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:42:20]:
Yeah, all the things that, when we're so close to it that we hear. We hear all the nuance, but the. The person who's on the outside, they don't know quite that difference. It's like, you know, to put it in guitar gear turns terms, it's like, well, I swapped out this. I swapped out my tube screamer for a big muffin and, like, expecting everybody to notice the big difference in my tone. And meanwhile, nobody actually, aside from maybe the couple guitar dorks in the audience, nobody like, oh, it sounds like a distorted guitar either way. Yeah, just, they don't. They don't hear that.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:42:54]:
That subtle sonic difference the same way that we do as creators. Like, they don't see the sonic coloration quite the same way, but I think that that's. And I don't think that's what's really cool about having gotten to know you over this past almost a year or so is that I think that that's really cool that you have that ability to notice and pick up what's going on with the audience and be able to be open enough to say, all right, how can I still express myself? How can I still be creative within what I want to do, but, you know, be accessible to the people that I want to have experience what I'm doing? I think it's very easy for artists to say, no, no, no, I'm going to do it exactly only my way. And if they don't like it, then that's something. Well, screw all of them, or that's something that's wrong with them that they don't quite get it or whatever that story that we can tell ourselves is. Hearing you say that of being, being continually in the crafting of the music, like, that's something so cool that I don't hear from very many artists very often.

John Ryder [00:44:11]:
Thanks, man. It's a, if you want to get there, you got to keep climbing up the mountain, man. You can't like, go up, you know, a thousand feet and be like, oh, yeah, well, you know, I'm just going to wait until the next time I decide to make another, you know, incline. And so, you know, you always, and, you know, like, the people who like to do, like, free soloing or climbing mountains, like, they might go up that same mountain a couple of different ways, find different paths. And, I mean, that was, you know, I think that's the beauty of art is it's ever changing. And that's like, like, for me, like, like, I obviously have empires of delirium, but that's why that's been so quiet so lately. Because, like, it's like, I busted my ass for that band for three years. Film, music videos, threw money at it, developed a sound with a bass guitar that sounds like a guitar, basically.

John Ryder [00:45:07]:
Royal blood or actually, the first person who showed me the octave thing was Jay with anomic. I was like, how the fuck does she.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:45:16]:
Right, which I introduced him how to do that with, with that. Yeah, yeah, there's a whole story in that one because I didn't, I didn't like the drummer he. So I was playing bass for inomic at the time and I didn't really get on with the drummer that we had. And so I was like, you would be better off doing this as a, as a two piece. And so here's how you can do that.

John Ryder [00:45:37]:
That's funny. Yeah, yeah. So thank you for that inspiration. Years later. Yes. You didn't even know.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:45:44]:
Once again, I say what we talked about, that that ripple effect is like, had I not shown him how to do that, you know, you wouldn't have maybe had that, that sonic color, like that sonic paintbrush or crayon box, whichever metaphor you want for it, you wouldn't even had the access to it necessarily. Or maybe you would have stumbled upon it later. But, yeah, it's always fun to see what those ripple effects have and, like, what you are doing and the way that you show up in, in the various music scenes of like, what sorts of ripples and what sorts of people, your performances may influence how they show up.

John Ryder [00:46:28]:
Yeah. That's. It's really interesting. And, you know, it's. You know, we had, you know, I think when we first officially met you, because I had heard about you, like, a lot in the past, was the July show that we played in St. Paul.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:46:44]:
Yep.

John Ryder [00:46:45]:
And, like, you know, I hadn't played ghost made stuff, and, like I said, four years. Right. Like, we had a month and a half to prep, and I didn't even remember most of the songs. Like, yeah, you know, so we were, like, figuring out as you go, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't the most polished performance, but it had a beginning and an end that was very, you know, there was an arc to it that's, you know, made a lot of sense for the musical style, and then it was just very, like, cathartic and honest and, like, from that, like, we've gotten. I've been offered probably somewhere between 60 to 80 shows since July. Wow. Which is a lot. And we have.

John Ryder [00:47:29]:
I can't announce it, but we do have a tour coming up, and I have to figure that part out with the drummer, but I can't officially announce it, but you'll see. Okay, but we. Yeah, we. I've had, you know, I've had to turn down more shows than I've accepted by at least five fold, which is crazy. And only. Only because if it were up to me, I'd be playing every single one of them. But when you're in a band, you got to go with what works for people's schedules, you know, and, you know, but, yeah, we've. Yeah, somewhere between 60 to 80 shows over the course of July, August, and, like, five months, six months.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:48:11]:
That's impressive for. For any band. Like, that's.

John Ryder [00:48:16]:
It's a lot. It was a lot. Yeah, I've had to. It sucks, man. I've had to say, like, just in December alone, probably twelve shows I had to say no to. And I'm very blessed that, like, people think of us and want to have us on a show regardless of how good or bad the performance might be on the last show, you know, because we run a lot of backing tracks and we don't have any monitor system, so we are at. For a while, we were at the mercy of whatever sound engineer was working that bar. And, you know, it's always shown up to bars and venues with no monitors on stage, and I'm like, how the fuck do I hear my backing track? You know? And so I actually went and bought, like, I guess it's, like, 415 inch speakers with tweeters and 312 inch speakers.

John Ryder [00:49:14]:
And then we use the 15 as monitors. So, like, I just kind of got to the point where I'm like, I can't afford to throw a couple thousand dollars at an in ear rack. But, you know, I've got these really nice, professional, quality pa speakers I could bring with me and use those as monitors.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:49:33]:
Yeah. You know, fill in the mix, at least so you know where you are. Yep, yep.

John Ryder [00:49:37]:
And so, yeah, it's. Yeah, anywhere from no monitors to. We had one venue give us one monitor, and I was like, you know, it just. Performances can vary a lot and. Oh, yeah, you know, I hate it. I hate it because I want to go out there and I want people to be like, wow. Like, they're really polished and they sound amazing, but I'm not willing to wait. Like, you know, like, you see, like you said earlier in the conversation, some people want to wait for the very first experience of when you hear that one song that it's perfect.

John Ryder [00:50:11]:
And then you didn't have that opportunity to grow because you waited all that time. So I don't want to wait till I have money to buy anything rack. I'd rather go make monitors work and grow, continue to grow as much as I can, you know?

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:50:26]:
Yeah. So there's also no guarantee that playing within years is a whole different skill and things, too, of, like, there's no guarantee that it's just going to fix everything for you either. I get to, like, I think it's so cool that you're doing stuff like that because it, you know, it reminds me of, while I'm not. Not an ancient old geezer by any stretch of the imagination, but, like, the. Just the reminders. I'm laughing and smiling because I'm remembering all of those same struggles that you're talking about. In the first band that I really played in, we were doing something very different than everybody else because we had. This is 2004, we had backing tracks.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:51:09]:
We had no amps. We were running everything direct through line six pods. So as a bass, we had no drummer because everything was programmed. So as a singer, a guitar player and a bass player, it was cool because we could load everything up and we could tour in a Buick and we didn't have to have a big van. We didn't have to, like, we could do things like have a hotel room because we weren't paying out so much in gas, but showing up to shows and they're like, well, this one speaker, this is the entire PA. You're like, what? Like, those frustrations I remember those very, very, very vividly of what you're talking about and how creative you get with a solution. Like you talked about of bringing along your own monitors to be able to hear these things. And I think that's so cool that you're continually building this way to start and keep going rather than wait for the perfect moment, because that's ultimately where all the magic happens anyways.

John Ryder [00:52:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. A lot of growth in those imperfect moments. It's like, I don't know, like I. So I got really heavy. We'll talk about, like, strong and stuff, but, you know, I've been like 170, like most of my life up until I would say two and a half years ago. Like, I've gained like 50, 60 pounds and. But the struggle is like going and running 30 minutes on a treadmill.

John Ryder [00:52:47]:
And, I mean, you're not where you want to be. You're not at the performance that you want to be at or that you're accustomed to, but that 30 minutes of, honestly, for me, it's like the first twelve minutes are like, hell, I fucking hate it. And then the rest of it's smooth sailing, you know? You know, that's, that's a big part of the process of anything, really, which is if you want to, you want to get there, you put in the work, you know?

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:53:18]:
Well, it's the. We've talked about this on the podcast many times of, like, it's very easy for us to distill, like, our lives down to, like, checkboxes and, like, accomplishments and things. And reality is that all of the magic and all of the memories come from the time that you're spending doing the work, being on the journey versus all of the big achievements. Because how long does that big achievement, let's say you're on it, you headline a big show. It's like the good feels from that are very small. It's like you get the time doing it and a little bit of the time afterwards, but then it's on to the next one. Onto the next one, because if you just stop there, you're not going to get that next show. And so it's in that continual process of improvement, that continual tweaking, that continual growth that we find all the magic which is in the journey itself.

John Ryder [00:54:20]:
Yeah, 100%. I did want to say this, though, is again, the weird and strong, having lived other places and I've spent time in Texas and New York and then lived in LA for a long time. And, man, the midwest is a really weird place.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:54:39]:
Yeah.

John Ryder [00:54:39]:
It is not in a negative way, but it's full of a lot of people underground. Like, there's a lot of talented people here. There just need, like, just need to be shown, you know, how to, like, bring that talent out, you know? And I think that's one thing I've appreciated, especially in the last couple of years, which is, like, holy shit. Like, there's a lot of. There's a lot I didn't see here before. And so that's been really, really beautiful. And, you know, every place is kind of weird, but I think the midwest, I mean, when we put that grand fork show, there was a. It was a tater tot dish.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:55:25]:
It was a wild rice soup.

John Ryder [00:55:27]:
Yeah. Wild rice soup. Yeah. That's just. Dude, I've never played a show where they had food like that.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:55:33]:
Yeah. Yeah.

John Ryder [00:55:34]:
I mean. I mean, we did put the 4 July where they had the steak, but, like.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:55:39]:
But just to, like, show up and be like, oh, hey there, by the way, there's this nice home cooked meal just waiting in the kitchen for you.

John Ryder [00:55:45]:
Yeah, that's a beautiful thing.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:55:46]:
Yeah. I think I've talked about this on another episode. I've talked about this for years of, like, there's definitely something about northern climates of, like, you know, feeling like you're locked up for six months out of the year to avoid the outside and avoid the weather. That, like, that's where, like, people become so talented. I mean, is it any wonder that, like, Bob Dylan and Prince come from Minnesota? Like, right. You know, they just had time to spend just working on the music? Because if you went outside in February, it's, like, could be a death sentence if you're not prepared. Just like, I'll just stay. I'll just stay inside and play guitar.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:56:29]:
Just stay inside and write some songs. Just make that happen.

John Ryder [00:56:33]:
Yeah, I. Have you seen the shining?

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:56:38]:
Yes.

John Ryder [00:56:39]:
Okay. So my goal in life is to have enough money for music that I can sustain from it. But in the winter months, I mean, granted, unless I have a lot of money and it goes someplace warm in the winter months to. To kind of lock myself up, like, in the shining. Like, yeah, I was there. Kind of secluded from everybody in his own thoughts and going mad. I used to. I used to be an RA at Minnesota State University, and they would pay, you know, resident assistants to stay over Christmas break, and there's, like, nobody on campus.

John Ryder [00:57:21]:
Yeah, maybe. Maybe a dozen kids, and. But you still had to work the desk and, like, and then you still had to patrol all of the residential buildings and walk and, you know, every once in a while you'll see someone, but like, typically all the lights are out and there's something exciting and like tingling about that feeling of just like almost like post apocalyptic nothingness that you can kind of really be in your own thoughts in a different kind of way. You know what I mean?

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:57:57]:
Because you're in your same environment. Yeah, yeah. But it's kind of spooky that way. I loved that. It used to be. It's not like this anymore for sure. Like during big holidays, especially during the summer, downtown Fargo, Moorhead, it would be a ghost town. So like 4 July, like there'd be like two bars open and like nobody there.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:58:20]:
Like, those were my favorite. Those were my favorite because it's like even if it was a Saturday night, it would be just a ghost town. And it was interesting to just be able to see that from that lens versus, oh, it's just another Saturday and it's packed full of college kids and they're doing their thing. It's just fun to have that pattern interrupt like you're talking about.

John Ryder [00:58:42]:
Yeah.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:58:44]:
Awesome, man. As we're coming up on our time together, anything, any final thoughts or any pieces of wisdom that you'd like to share with the weird and strong audience?

John Ryder [00:58:56]:
I'm thinking about that for a sec.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [00:58:58]:
Yeah.

John Ryder [00:59:01]:
I would say, honestly, just keep grinding and be willing to step outside your box. You know what I mean? I think that that's really important. You know, the more tools you have, the less, you know, like if you want to go hiking, which is, you know, one, you know, like in the mountains in the winter with just like one tool, you bring several. You bring a shovel, you bring, you know, snowshoes, you bring a tent, you bring stuff to light a fire, stuff in case there was emergency flares, like, you know, if you really want to succeed, you know, I'm using this reference because I'm thinking about, it's December and like every December I think about we did 10,000ft in Yosemite. So we like slept on the side of the mountain, which is beautiful in the winter. And I've been thinking about that every, we did it over Christmas, like, I don't know, seven years ago, eight years ago. But, you know, you wouldn't do that journey with just one tool. You would learn multiple tools and, you know, and know how to use them and, you know, I think that, you know, that's, I think in today's climate, that's kind of what you got to do.

John Ryder [01:00:24]:
And, you know, there's technology that's there and, you know, that's a guide for how to use those tools. Aside from that, check out ghost mid cellophane. Everything except for Spotify at the moment is that we don't have Spotify, which is ironic with everything going on. And then feel free to check out empires of delirium. And I do have a production company called Skeleton Structure Productions that I do do photography and video and stuff like that. Through stuff.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [01:00:58]:
Awesome. Yeah, we'll have a link to all of that in the show notes for anybody who wants to check those things out, which I would highly recommend. So as we wrap up, thanks, John, so much for jumping on the podcast with me. It's always a pleasure getting to talk to you and I'm so grateful for you willing to jump on and have this conversation. And I'm just grateful for you being you because you are a super rad dude.

John Ryder [01:01:24]:
Honestly, man, I appreciate you a lot. Cause, like, I feel like you're a very inspiring person to be around.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [01:01:30]:
Thank you.

John Ryder [01:01:31]:
And you're doing what's very authentic to who you are. And, you know, I think that we need more people like that. So. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Jeremy Gruensteiner [01:01:43]:
Yeah, awesome. And thank you all for listening to this episode. We appreciate you coming all the way to the end. And as always, folks, stay strong and most importantly, stay weird.