Well, then hello again, and welcome back to Digitally Done. I am one of your three fabulous hosts, Lizzie. And today we also have the excellent humans known as  Lunchtime Snack Sam Winch and the amazing Nikki Cali. Hello, ladies.  Hello. I had to laugh, Lizzie, in our transcription for a previous episode. I saw Ashley called me a Sam Winch and I laughed. 

Got to love AI translating into what everyone called it anyway. No,  admittedly, I didn't get it until I heard it like strung together. Went, Oh, I understand  now.  No, that, I mean, a lot of people don't get it until you hit the one who does. And I was trying to book an appointment at a bank one time and I was like Sam Winch, they're like Sam Winch.

And I'm like, 

Oh, it's wonderful. The quirks of life are spectacular. And you know what else is spectacular? My favorite topic of all, we're back, we're back in the room. We're talking about marketing again. Oh,  this is like Christmas come early for me. So hooray. Lucky. You two get to listen to me rabbit on a bit. Anybody else like marketing or just me?

Okay.  I know I should like marketing. Does that count? I do like marketing. I love what marketing does. I love what marketing does. And I think part of what we're going to talk about today, hopefully is like having a good plan for what you're actually doing and not just making a thing and flopping it out into the world.

Which I have even in the past had a, had a habit of doing as well. So no, this marketing talk is Well timed, Miss Lizzie, well timed. Yeah, we kind of need to have this conversation because we do, like, the reality is is that so, so, so  many of us, and I'm sure each of us included at any point in our earlier days, have got, oh, I've got a thing, I'm going to make the thing, and then it's going to sell, and Kind of the entirety of the plan, but  unfortunately that's, it maybe did work back in the day as well, like when there weren't, wasn't so much competition, but now there's quite a lot of competition.

So you need to think a little bit more carefully about, right, how are we getting it out into the world? What else is happening around it? Do we have the audience already built? Like we talked about in the last one about building the runway to the launch so that there is somebody to sell to  and let's pretend now.

That our digital thing has been created. Congratulations. You made it  and I always equate it, right? The launch is kind of like the birth bit. And then the parenting happens from there where you got to raise the bloody thing, right?  I never thought about it that way, but I love that. You can't just give birth to it and plunk it somewhere and leave it.

We've got to look after the thing. You gotta nurture it. You gotta love it a little bit. You might get mad at it occasionally for just not doing what you want it to do. However, it  still needs to be done and we'll get there and it's going to grow and it's going to be amazing. So I'm going to start, Nikki, What do you feel that you need in order to launch what tools, what assets do you think you need  on the digital side of things?

Sure. Well, obviously you need some sort of engagement platform, a platform to actually reach out  to an audience, potential audience, whether they're a current audience that you've already captured. Absolutely. Or an audience you're trying to build.  So some sort of digital platform that will allow you to do that.

You obviously need to have  something to introduce yourself with. So people can get a good grasp of who you are.  And why they should listen to you, such as a loop magnet of some sort. So they're, they're just sort of the very basic, very, very basic start off. And I think we all know that. But when it comes to actually, you know, where you want to start to launch this whole process, and we talked about it in our previous marketing episode, where we're planning things out, you just get a stack right now, get yourself out there right now, building your profile.

But when it comes to actually launching the actual product itself, I think, yeah. Making sure you've got a platform that I know I'm going down the logical processes  side of things here, but an actual platform that  can take  the lead, like can capture that lead, can respond back to that lead. And nurture that lead  and consistently as well, because you can just do one,  you're going to lose them.

So you've got to make sure that consistency stays there as well. I always love your practicality, Nikki. I think before that as well, like even with clients, when we're talking about, what do you need? So you can start marketing this thing getting super, super clear on what your thing is and what it does for people.

Like I have a lot of people who build a course and then go, Oh, you know, I've made this course. It's six modules and there's three modules in each video or three videos in each module. Like, and I'm going to put all that in my sales page. I'm like, that's cool. But no one cares. Like they've come to your sales page because they want an outcome, not because they want to buy your videos.

Like. Right. We're overwhelmed probably with content and information. Anyway, most people don't want to be told they're going to get a whole heap more content, but they do want to be told they're about to get this really cool outcome. And so when I talk to my audience before we even get to having a platform, although that's awesome, it's like, well, what are you even going to say?

Because if you're just going to go out and go, I bought a course, it's got a hundred videos. Like it's not going to sell. No, it's just not. It's really not. And the thing about that, that comes down to.  Psychology in the end, right? So we buy with our emotions and we rationalize later. So features tell we don't get connect emotionally to well, it's got four modules like that.

I mean, there might be the occasional person who gets revved up by that, but most of us go, yeah, cool, whatever. I don't care. I don't like it could have a hundred. It couldn't have two doesn't matter. But if it's going to give me the transformation, the solution that I'm looking for now, I'm interested. Is it going to change my life? 

I mean, where do I buy? Because  I matter to me more than features do. So that's the features versus benefit conversation. I want to say just one thing here, like,  cause I studied product development and so forth. And when it came to producing an actual product, I don't know who it is. And I do apologize if I'm saying the wrong name, I think it's Dan lock.

I'm not sure, but he does point out or someone that I've, Listen to has pointed out. It's a simple thing as like buying an umbrella. You know, you're trying to buy an sell an umbrella to someone. Well, all I want to do is that umbrella to keep me, I just, if I'm going to buy it, I just want it to keep me dry.

That's the simplicity of the actual product. That's the actual solution someone's looking for. So when you're looking at whatever digital product you're putting out there, what is the simple, simple, simple. Solution that you are providing and then you jazz it up from there. And the simple point is whatever product you're putting out there, what is that one singular solution you are providing that person?

A hundred percent. That's so important as well. Like I spend a lot of time obviously in messaging land, but we, I talk a lot about being clear over clever. So it's very important that even if you're talking about it from what is it going to feel like? How's your life going to be better? You have to know what the source of that transformation is in the first place to be able to articulate it better.

So very important point. I would argue.  You know, there's a lot of conversation. In fact, I'd love your opinions. There's a lot of conversation about what you absolutely must have in order to be quote unquote successful as a business owner in this day and age. Things like you must have a website or you must have an Instagram.

You must be on LinkedIn or you must, must, must, you got to have an email list. You got to do, do, do, do, do, do. And look, personally, my approach to absolutely everything is there are no must. There's only what works for you. They're like, I would argue that having a marketing ecosystem is a very important thing, but you will be drawn to certain skill sets, certain platforms, certain modes of delivery.

And therefore your audience will also be in that space. What do you guys think? Do you think there are certain non negotiables or do you think everything's up for grabs?  I think that it really probably does vary depending on your business model and your target you're trying to reach. Do I think you should have a website?

Yes, probably. Some sort of online presence is helpful. Putting all of your eggs into the meta basket is risky because if for some reason they decide to block you, which they can, which they do, like you're now stuck in the ether because all of your stuff was in there. So like, yes, I think ownership of something is really important, but  I have seen businesses survive without a website.

I have seen people make plenty of money without a website. So like, do I think it's important? Yes, but have other people made money without it? Yes. And I think that's probably really important, Lizzie, what you were saying about a marketing ecosystem. I think the thing about ecosystems, right. Is that they, they're varied and it's about finding out what's right for your ecosystem.

So for my audience, having a website is really important to me because they want to go somewhere to prove that I'm real. Having an email list is helpful because they want to build that relationship before they buy. I have people who wait a long time. The lead time can be really long before they convert and sign on a dotted line.

So those things for my audience are really important. And then somewhere for me it was things like video and webinar, which helped because they want to believe in that. I know what I'm talking about and they want to get a vibe for who I am. So those were essential parts of my ecosystem. If I was a local plumber, might not be the same.

Maybe it is, but maybe it's not. So I think the thing about ecosystems, yeah, they're essential to me, but might not be essential to someone else. Or, but if you have one and can I just put this little caveat in, if you have one, it needs to be cohesive. So one thing leads to another leads to another, they're not separate.

And that's what makes it an ecosystem. It's kind of self supporting in a way. So your emails lead to your socials or your website leads to your emails or whatever. There needs to be sort of interaction between all of them and they need to recognizably go from one to the next, to the next. Branding on point, messaging on point.

Just all of those imagery, all the familiar things all need to go and be lined up regardless of where you end up, whether it's paid ads, whatever, it doesn't matter. Anyway, Nikki. Awesome. Go back. No, no, no. That's okay. I was, I was only going to highlight your point about cohesiveness. I've seen plenty of clients lose sales on a sales page because the ad they came from didn't feel like the sales page they then landed on and it like, it immediately turns people off.

So it's that cohesiveness is super important.  And that just all comes back down to the whole trusting, doesn't it? It's like you really like.  People struggle enough with it, with online world full stop. Like there's just that barrier there. It's just stereotype online. Ooh, scary. And  you know, when we built Wisdom, Wisdom was all about like making sure like people feel secure.

Right. And I think that's one of the big things, you know, when you're putting digital content out there, you're building trust because you want them to learn about you,  where they're going to engage with you, how they're going to engage with you. And like I said, that whole ecosystem  and yes, with Stome, it's like an all in one thing, but the point of.

Building or whatever platform you use, it's all going to orientate around values and trust.  So that's just where I come from with that perspective of building an ecosystem. It's like,  you can, you can capture people's interests and so forth. And when you bring them into something, wherever you're bringing them into, whether it's your email sequencing or whether it be, you know, an actual platform where you've got all your.

You know, content that you're sharing, whatever it is. I really believe it's,  it's got to be secure, not just for your own IP, where you're protecting your stuff, but also helping them feel secure. So therefore they're happy to continually grow with you. And do you want fries with that situation? You know what I mean?

Like you've got them in there with you already. And it's that mindset, I think. And I don't know if this is answering your question at all, but if they have that mindset of. I'm here to hang out with you today, or I'm here to hang out with you for this hour, you know, they're in your ecosystem and making sure just like, you know, you guys said it's, it's got to be cohesive  from where they've decided, okay, I'm going to hang out with you today or whatever, to where they're going to go, where they're going to find you.

And I think that's one of the biggest things when someone thinks about, I'm going to do this today. They already know where they're going to go. It's like you get in the car. I've got dropped the kids off at school. I know where I've got to take them to. It's like, okay, today I'm going to do this. I'm going to study this.

I know where to go to online. You've got to give them a place that they know automatically where they've got to go. And there's no disconnect. Absolutely. So this dovetails quite nicely with the next thing that I wanted to talk about and, and Nikki kind of grazed past it as well, which is very handy is that while we have the ecosystem, that's kind of.

Quite, that can be quite linear. That can be potentially, let's talk about the funnel, the sales funnel and readiness to buy and constructing that. A lot of these things that we're talking about there, these pieces are what we will call top of funnel, right? So this is all about the educating points. And then as we move into the fun, cause the idea for, I imagine everybody is familiar, but at the top, there's lots of people and we're still trying to figure out whether we want to buy.

By the time we get to the bottom of the funnel, we're in. We're guaranteed. We're, we're, we're for it. We're here. Ha ha. So that's what we're trying to get people, but there are a few people, fewer people down there. You will lose people along the way. And that is the nature of life and business and whatever. 

How do we construct a beautiful, effective funnel that does what we want us to do? That we want our customers to do, I should say, cause, you know, we have all our cohesive, it starts with the top of funnel stuff, the website that says things, the social media that says things, the emails that say things, the potentially the paid ads that say things, and they all say, all right, come and trust us and just give us a chance and we'll be better next level lead magnets, right?

For a lot of people, would you say?  Yeah, I convert to something that has low risk. Sometimes that's free. Sometimes that's very low paid. One of my lead magnets I use in inverted commas is 5. It's not free, but it's like so low risk that most people are willing to throw 5 bucks at something to give it a go.

And if It, if for some reason it flops, it won't, it's great. But if for some reason it flopped, they've lost five bucks and they're not worried about it. So yeah, I think that first like super low risk conversion is, is really important. I think for me, it's inviting them also into a free community of other people.

So there are, so whoever's interested in your stuff can say. Other people have this issue as well. Other people are taking this journey too. So if I've got questions or someone to relate to, I can. So I think that's a really good spot to, you know,  Bring people to as well next to your lead magnet sort of thing to say, Hey, it's not just me you're dealing with.

It's, you know, there's a whole group of us.  And the thing is like lead magnet could be absolutely anything, as you say, it could be a community. It could be a resource. It could be like a guided meditation. Who knows? But there's a lot of conjecture about, Oh, how much should I share? Should I, Oh, I don't want to give away too much.

And then people aren't going to work with me because I gave away too much. And now they just got it all for free. Okay. I kind of like to set people's minds at ease about that in, in several ways. I think it's really important to put your best foot forward. This is the very first impression that somebody has of you at a deeper level, and it really needs to be a good impression.

And you want people to leave that impression going, my goodness, if that's what I get for free or very little, can you imagine the support and the insight and the wisdom that I get for my pay. Like for, for my paid version down the track, that might be. I come from the school of leave nothing on the table, because. 

If you give it all, chances are it is a very, very low percentage of people who will action at all and embed it all and know it all and never, never need you. You know, we need that support. We need that push. We need that accountability that comes from an expert, like any of the 3 of us, for example, wink to push you and to keep you on track and to keep you actually engaged with the material.

All right. Any thoughts?  I think it depends on well, as what  you're giving away. So the way I think about it is always like, you can watch TV for free, right? There are free to air channels. YouTube is free. It hasn't stopped people buying Netflix, Disney, and everything else because they know that like, yeah, I can watch the average stuff for free, or I can go and get the one program I want and I can pay for it.

And I feel that that's just often the case with a lot of stuff as well. It's like, I can give away lots of great stuff for free, but people still want to come to me for a specific outcome for a specific thing, because they know they want that. thing. And so like, I can give away lots of stuff for free, but it's not going to stop the people who really want that one thing coming to me.

You know, if we said, well, there's, there's free things out there. They'll never buy from me. That's the entire world. Like really, if you wanted to learn a language, you want to build a rocket. You can probably do it on YouTube, but people still pay for those sorts of services and support. Like, yeah, the people will always be willing to pay to get the outcome they want.

For me and I always, I'm always on the whole trust triangle, the trusting, right. But I, I do want to step on the whole, not step on, but mention the trust triangle side of it. And that's something that, you know, I share a lot. With our clients and stuff, it's, you know, with that trust triangle, you, you know, you've got authenticity, you've got logic and you've got empathy and whatever it is that you're sharing, as long as the authenticity is there, that's like, you know, you really sharing who you are.

So giving what you have and you want to share, that's great. But the empathy steps in as well, because you've got to listen. It's that whole, you know, going to your doctor's appointment. Your doctor's not going to come in there, just stare at you and go, okay, this is what you need. They ask you all these questions.

All right. And see, as long as whatever it is that you're sharing is.  Including a, a,  a listening  part of it where you've actually either listened to the pains from previous, whatever it is or you're sharing a story that you've heard, or you've been through that they can relate to shows that empathy shows who you are and through like maybe your own trial, tribulation challenges, whatever it is.

But also sharing that logical flow, how deep that logical flow goes is a whole different thing, right? So whenever we're sharing our knowledge, and I always say this is either a vertical or is a horizontal, you can share your knowledge in here's the eight steps, but they're very basic summary, or here's the one big step, we're going to go vertical, we're going to go deep into it. 

So it kind of, and that's where you add the how, and that's, you know, I know Sam is really good at sort of, you know, when we're learning this sort of stuff, especially in your modules and things like that, whatever you're sharing, it's like you do the what, the why, but  how is something everyone wants to know.

They just want to take an action. They want to know what they've got to do. So for me, when it comes to like what information you share and how deep you go. I think it depends on who your audience is, what it is that you're sharing and what the real pain problems are. Yeah, that's my mind anyway, isn't it?

Fair enough. Look, I think I'd simply argue that it doesn't matter how deep you go,  nobody is going to know it as And in fact, you probably bamboozle people by sharing absolutely everything. You know, they just be like, Oh, cool. I  have a little cry on the couch, you know,  which is why we are here to God. I wanted, before we wrap up, because I realized we all have. 

Other life to do  is I wanted to point out that,  right. There's an end to the funnel. Okay. We got someone in, but that's not where the relationship ends. Is it, you know, they might come into our program, but I would argue that all of us.  Once we've sold the thing, that's just the beginning of like, of the job and it's setting aside the delivery. 

How  many of us, even the three of us, do we have our graduation points set up? Well, do we have our feedback loops set up? Well, do we have our off boarding set up? Well, I'd be really curious and I'm putting all three of us on the spot because I know where my weak points are. And I'm laughing because I know I definitely have weak points too.

I've definitely spent a lot more time recently thinking of the customer journey as more of a cycle than a funnel. Like it's less of a top and a bottom and more of a round around and roundabout. Especially when I have repeat clients, clients come back from work. The question you asked, do I have holes?

Yes. How am I graduation points? They're useless, but I do have a solid offboarding and feedback system and that works well for my kind of business because, because they feel looked after and loved at the end and because I take feedback and I action feedback, like I actively, I don't just want testimony at the end, I want feedback at the end and it has been used to improve services in the past They come back, they move through the cycle and come back because they felt valued as they got off boarded, they gave solid feedback, they see rectification of feedback, and then they move back around to the beginning of the cycle.

So yeah, for me, much more cyclical, I think, than funnel. Don't have good graduation systems at all, but do, I do have a cycle, yeah.  And return customers to prove the point as well. It's great.  I'm the same as Sam.  There you go. Easy peasy. Do you have, Lizzie, do you, do you use graduation points? It's something I've always thought about and think I should use, but how do you, do you use them in your business? 

I think we've established that I'm a do as I say, not as I do kind of human.  I have guided lots and lots of people to doing things the way it's supposed to be done. This is actually a conversation that you and I had earlier  before we started recording Sam about  it's really easy to tell other people.

How to do things right. But we're, we're, we're, one of two things is either we're stuck in the doing for ourselves and each of us in our own ways and every business owner in their own way. Also, we're too busy putting in energy into other people's businesses to deliver.  What we do so well that we don't always have the resources, energy or financial or whatever, to then direct that to our own stuff because we're delivering instead.

So do I, do I have all of these things done? No, I do not. Would I like them to be done properly? I'm working on it. I've only just now finally refined my onboarding process to a point that I'm happy with. And the next step is off boarding, but it all, it all kind of.  It's an important factor, right? It's a missed opportunity.

If we're going to sell someone, even something like a, an early on low ticket lead magnet, something, then we need to at least give people the opportunity to, to stay in our space, to stay in our universe, to say,  Hey, did you like that? This is just the beginning. Would you like to see some of my videos?

Would you like to see, you know, what we could do if we worked one to one together, whatever it happens to be is the next point of keeping somebody in your marketing ecosystem, in your universe.  It's an important thing that the reason that I raise it is not because I'm so good at it myself. I do it all the time.

It's more because it's, it's, it's an opportunity for everybody and for each of us too. And I definitely didn't ask to put you on the spot, but more because I think that you and you're right, right? We see opportunities in other people's businesses way easier, I think, than we see opportunities in our own, and I know that you probably spend a lot of time working with people looking at graduation points, like, how do we encourage them to succeed? 

And especially when like leads aren't free, sometimes they feel free, but you put in your time on social media or you put in your content on social media or whatever. So leads aren't free if we're just turning and burning, which sounds horrible because there's a real humans out there. But like having that opportunity to continue to work together is super valuable for both parties.

Totally. And super meaningful as well. I think we're all in the business of, of creating something that matters to the people that we work with. and the churn and burn model doesn't work.  It's a little superficial and I think like part of what we do is build relationships with people as well as do the thing that we do for them.

So to have an opportunity for them to stay close to us means we get to deepen that relationship every single time. So, I just wanted to add 1 last final thing in that and that comes back to the whole community building. I think making sure that whatever it is that you're,  you know, the funnel, circular roll, whatever it is, it's like, we all do it from the beginning.

When we're looking at something, we start researching and see what other people think of a product. We want to look at the reviews. We want to assess that what other people are saying about it, et cetera. And that happens at the beginning, but it also happens at the end. And that's where that cycle goes.

It's like, well, if you're bringing someone into a product, they may not be ready to necessarily upgrade with you to go somewhere else or continue with you in another direction directly with you. But they're still probably happy to stay within a community that revolves around you. And I think, you know, ensuring that you give someone a place that they can at least go to with other like minded people.

At that, you know, off boarding area, then I think that's a really good sort of  segue into still, you know, keeping people in an environment that relates to where you want to take them to maybe later down the track when they're ready. Brilliant. That's a great point. Would you say that might well be your action point for this week's episode? 

I think so.  Job done. Homework done. You didn't even know it yet. Sam, do you have an action point for our listeners for today? Yep. And I think my action point is to start to really outline or clarify what you do have as part of your ecosystem. I think that it's easy to not have enough or the opposite to have overcomplicated things.

You've got, you know, six different social platforms and a whole bunch of stuff going on. If you're not going to do anything else, at least just sit down and go, I'm going to What am I doing? Like what is part of my big picture ecosystem? Because once you can see it, you can start to make better use of it.

But if it's just lots of stuff floating in midair, not talking to each other, it's kind of hard to make a plan.  Right. And my one, just to round it all out,  I'm actually going to go see. Smaller and simpler and just encourage everybody to step back and look at the, the offers that they're offering, the things that they're doing right now, and really think about that core promise that, you know, Nikki, you earlier were talking about.

So what is that simple? What is the umbrella doing, right? What is your umbrella doing for, for people? What is that one solution? And really. Be disciplined enough to find that. So there's no waffle. There's absolute clarity about what the transformation is and then go talk about it. So that's it. That's my one for today. 

I'd love to hear what yours are, dear listeners out there in the. So if you're in the pod scape or whatever you might call the listening space that you are in we do have our voicemail box set up for you to come give us some feedback, just like that. I'd love to hear your progress. How is your digital thing going?

Are you ready for the marketing that needs to happen to bring your digital thing into the real world here with us?  Tell us all about it. The link of course will be in the show notes.  That is kind of it from us for today. Ladies, anything else we need to add before we go?  Nope, just go do the doing.  All right.

Have a great week. We'll see you soon. Bye.