The Power of Forgiveness: Overcoming Church Hurt

You don't know what people will say and talk about. And like brother Steven said, usually when you talk about a situation that you are also involved in, you will present yourself usually in a better light. You may admit some faults, but you present yourself usually in a little better light than it really was.

Ladies and gents, welcome to Voices of Life, the podcast with topics related to the apostolic faith in the 21st century. Let's talk about what interests you here on Voices of Life.

Praise the Lord and welcome back to Voices of Life. We are happy you tuned in to listen to our new episode. Today we're gonna talk about church hurt and the more people we are and the longer we are in church, the more likely it'll be that somebody will hurt you. And the question is, why is that? Why does somebody get hurt in a church? We believe the church, the construct of a church is perfect, God designed it, but the people, of course, in the church, we are not perfect. So today we'd like to talk about that

and how to deal with church hurt.

That's the first bubble we want to bust right away in the beginning. Hurt and being hurt, it will happen even in church. Because like Pastor said, we are people, we are still human beings, we are imperfect. The concept of church is perfect, and God is perfect, and the Holy Spirit within us is perfect, but we as humans are not. So we do tend to hurt each other. Maybe it's just by a word that was... You didn't really think about what you said, and you just said it out of a joke maybe even, and people can get

hurt by it and they just sit there and their heart is hurt or their heart is even broken depending on how bad it was and you might not even notice that you hurt somebody. So this is something that will happen and it's just on everybody themselves how we can cope with it and also the 1 who heard how to deal with it and change that.

Yeah, I think it's a pretty sensitive topic actually what we're talking about today because of course there are situations like you just said and we will talk more about them, where it wasn't meant that badly, or it's misunderstandings, or maybe someone is just oversensitive. But the fact is that, like Pastor said, even though the church concept is perfect, we experience, and even in our churches, that people get sincerely hurt. And I don't think we want to deny that or be insensitive about that, that people are getting actually hurt. And then if that happens, the question is

how to react to that, how to deal with hurt in a church. And what it reminds me of is 1 scripture verse, which is, I think, very important, and that's in Colossians 3, and 1 2nd 13 till 14. And there it says, "...bear with each other and forgive 1 another, if any 1 of you has a grievance against someone, and forgive as the Lord forgave you, and over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity." So the Bible tells us that we really got to learn to, if we have grievance

or if we have that hurt or something, we need to learn to forgive each other and also to bury that weight sometimes. But it also reminds me, and I'll be done in a quick time, I'm sorry, but it also reminds me of Paul, because the Corinthians, they were also like having quarrels and stuff, and he said like, how is it that you go in front of a worldly judge to fight about your matters? Is there not someone in your church that can take care of those things much better than a worldly person? And he's saying you

are embarrassing yourselves there. So, I think it's good when in church you have people like a pastor and leadership that can also help to solve quarrels. So, it's not just that you have to forgive, you know, and you have to deal with it all by yourself. You can also bring things up and let them be resolved. But it is important in everything that you are ready to forgive and that you are trying to forgive because if you hold on to hurt, it will just keep on hurting you. And the person who loses most by not forgiving

is actually you because you are stuck with it.

I think also the important thing is that you also have to tell the person or let the person know that the 1 comment that he or she said hurt you and so you don't, I mean of course you can go to the pastor and say oh this and that person hurt me but before that let the other person know of course hey that what you said that just hurt my feelings so and please don't say that or but sometimes you also take us too serious sometimes Because sometimes there are jokes where you can actually really laugh

about it, but because you are sometimes oversensitive or have a sensitive day, you just take it to heart and just keep it by yourself. And even there, you should take it, tell that person, hey, that just hurt, please, not right now. So communication is key.

Yeah, that's right, because sometimes the people that offended the other person didn't even recognize that they did it. And so they may continue to do that and offend the person again and again, and then they don't know it even. And then that's important that people get together and say, well, this really hurt me.

And also what you said that it might be that you just had a bad moment, you know, because of the day that was ahead of you. Like if already so many things happened that you, you know, your nerves, they are really at their limit right now. Then sometimes small things can cause a big reaction and, and it goes in both directions. For example, a small thing can make you say something mean suddenly, or a small thing that, that someone else said appears to you to be very mean suddenly, and you are hurt by it, can work

in both directions. So, so that's something where we got to learn to some, you know, to step back then and reflect at the end of the day about the situation and realize, well, it wasn't all that bad. It was, you know, connected with all those things happening before. And if possible, then maybe resolve, have a quick talk if necessary, you know, and say, Hey, you know, I'm sorry I had such a stressful day and it wasn't right. You know how I said that. I'm sorry. Can you forgive me? Or, or, or say, you know, something, just

try to resolve.

Sometimes it's just because of the heat of the day. People are so busy with things and maybe you've planned a lot of things and things don't go according to your plan and you're a little frustrated or frustrated with a different situation and somebody just jokingly says something about that thing and you just explode because it frustrated you and that is understandable in you know because it's human but it is important like brother Justin said communicate. But before

you actually like that's I had a conversations last week with someone about that and what he also said was before you actually react to the comment or whatever, or really take that person to side, you should firstly pray about it. Pray about it because sometimes even there in the prayer, you probably realize, oh, I just overreacted and take it by sight. So maybe before you actually communicate with that person, it's also important to have the Lord involved with that as well. Because sometimes there's really that moment where you just realize, okay, it was overreaction, it was

a joke, that's it. And then that was it. And so you can move on from that. But of course, communication after that is also key.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not advisable to try to talk to somebody when your emotions are totally up and you're so angry and whatever, and so offended. Like you said, it's a good advice. Pray about it. Maybe sleep over it 1 night and talk about it. But nevertheless, you should address it somehow if it really hurts you.

No, so if you've been hurt, that doesn't give you or anybody that has been hurt the right to hurt others. Because that's sometimes what happens, oh, they did this to me, so it's okay if I do it to others as well. But that's also not what Jesus taught. He said, you do unto others as you want them to do to you and love your neighbor as yourself. So when you're hurt, it's easy to start to hurt others because you're angry with yourself or with the other person. You just spread that into other lives And they might

not even have done anything, like Sebastian also mentioned a little bit. But then all of a sudden they get hurt by you and then the hurt circle just never stops. It just goes on and on and I hurt him because he hurt me and I hurt this person because they hurt me as well. And so that can be an excuse that people use. Oh yeah, I've been hurt, so it's all right if I hurt as well. But that doesn't make your hurt better. And the other person, it's not even their fault maybe that you feel that

way.

Yeah, and this attitude of revenge is not a good attitude somehow, you know. Because you hurt me, I will hurt you someday when there is a good chance to do so, so you know how it feels like. This is very carnal to do that.

That's also part of forgiveness. It's forgiving and forgetting. And sometimes it's even, depending on what the hurt was, you might not be able to forget it physically, so to say. Like the memory will always be there that it happened, but by forgiving you, you also say, okay, I won't use that against a person someday. I won't keep it to myself. And oh, and like you said, Pastor, when the day comes, I can pack it out again and say, oh, I knew it. I knew it. You didn't change. 20 years ago, you did the exact same thing

and it happened again. And that's not forgiving, but you carried it around with you during that time then.

And that's what happens sometimes. Some people, you know, they are offended. They don't say anything about it. Then they are offended again, sometime again and again. And then suddenly they explode and then they bring up the topics. You know, like you said, 2 years ago you did that, and so on. And well, you need to try to resolve the problem as fast as possible.

Yeah. Yeah.

So important, because otherwise it will burden you down. It will even hinder your prayers. It will go as far as hindering your prayers, because Jesus said, forgive that you might be forgiven. So it's not just, you're not just helping the other person by forgiving them, but you're also helping yourself, because I think 1 of you already mentioned that God forgave us our sins. And I think He had every right to keep those sins against us, Because he is perfect in every way, but he still said, hey, I'm going to take your place. I'm going to die

for the sins you committed, and you commit, even though I don't deserve to die, because I did not sin, but you did. And he took all of that on himself to forgive us. So who are we? And I think that's hard for us to grasp sometimes, because in our human mind it's hard to understand, but no matter how bad the hurt even was, and even if it was viciously planned or whatever, it still does not compare to what God has forgiven us.

Yeah, and the thing is, we fail Him oftentimes. Even though when we are born again, Christian, we still do mistakes and we do sin and we are not always maybe that faithful. And he is still faithful. And we are not always totally worshipping God and concentrating on Him, but still, He is here and He is not holding it against us. And because he is a forgiving and he is a loving God, and to really imitate that and to do that or apply it to another person, I think that's what we should do. I'm sorry today my

English is horrible. I just had to say that. It's a Monday and it's a hot day.

Yeah, well most of us feel a little worn out today, but that's okay, because we still talk here and enjoy it, I guess.

I have another thing, another verse that came to mind. It's in Matthew chapter 18 and it's talking about if somebody does anything against you. It's in chapter 18 verse 15. It says, moreover, if thy brother shall trespass against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he shall hear you, you have gained your brother. So that was what you said, Justin, to go to them personally first and not carry it in the whole church and everyone, oh, you know what he did and this hurt me. And but then he goes on.

But if he will not hear thee, so if he just goes on and keeps on doing it, in fact, whatever your feelings, I don't care about your feelings, don't care what you think, it says then take it with 1 or 2 more that in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses every word may be established because that's what happens sometimes. Because you're hurt, you somehow turn the story in your favor sometimes. And maybe it's not even that way, but most of the time we humans try to put ourselves in a better position, that it looks better

when I talk about somebody else like, oh yeah, and he did this and he did this and he, well, what did you do? Oh, I was good. I did nothing to provoke it. So that's why I think 2, 1 or 2 more is very wise. Well, it's Jesus saying it, you know, it's very wise. And then he goes on. And after that, if he shall neglect to hear, even them tell it unto the church. And I think, yeah, if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican."

And I think that is something very extreme. If a person went that far that he just does not care and keeps on doing it, that you have to bring it in front of the whole church. And I think that's an extreme measure. I don't know if that has... I don't think I ever witnessed that, and I don't know if you all ever witnessed that. And I think we never came that far because I think if he doesn't hear 2 or 3, I mean, and these people, it should not be your best friends. Like you get your

2 best friends against that 1 person and of course they'll be on your side normally. They will be on your, oh yeah, no, how can you do that? I think it should be people, maybe even in leadership, but I think, Pastor, maybe you can say more about that, to that it's people that are, what is that word in English? Leaders? Unbiased, I think. Is that the right word? Yeah. That are not On the other person's side or on your side, but they're just outside of the situation and just can look on it from a neutral standpoint

to really observe the situation, see, okay, what is the situation here?

And preferably those people should be mature Christians. Yeah. They should have experienced already a lot of things in their life. It shouldn't be, I'm sorry I don't want to offend anybody, but it shouldn't be just a young guy or a young lady doing that. It should be somebody that had some life experiences that would be very advisable. And like you said, what's happening when people are... Offending people all the time, talking bad and things like that, of course They have to resolve it first and then it goes on, it progresses, they have to get some witnesses,

like we said, a mature Christian, hopefully, and if it doesn't work, usually the pastor is involved in that already, and if that is not working, then what I do personally, this is just advice my dad gave me, is pray about it and let God do it. Let God take care of it and let God, if it's necessary, remove them from church. So they will be frustrated then, they will be fed up, and then they will leave the church by themselves. And you don't necessarily have to tell them. So that's it now. The thing is, sometimes it

might be necessary to inform the whole church, but Usually before we would inform the whole church, we would inform the leadership team first. And if then we feel it necessary to inform everybody about a certain brother or sister, then we would do so, but we would do so very cautiously. We wouldn't just, you know, tell. And we wouldn't tell everything. I mean, all the details is not necessary for people to know. We may have nosy people in the church that would like and love to know everything and give their feedback or comment on it. That's in

every church the case, I guess, but we wouldn't do that. But sometimes we need to inform the leadership, we need to inform the church people, the members, just to prevent damage. It's damage control, because you don't know what people will say and talk about. And like Brother Stephen said, usually when you talk about a situation that you are also involved in, you will present yourself usually in a better light. You may admit some faults. You present yourself usually in a little better light than it really is. And yeah, so these measurements, they are hard, but sometimes

it has to be. And right now we were just talking basically about misunderstandings or maybe sometimes treating people the wrong way, but sometimes there could be severe church hurt going on. So I'm talking about spiritual or physical or mental abuse that could happen in any church. It's not just the Catholic church where it happens, it could happen also in an apostolic church. Because people in that church, also people in leadership, we don't know what's in their mind, we don't know the process when they became carnal again, or if they were really able to fake it along

time and God was working with them, gave them some space of grace to get it sorted out, but they haven't. And then some things just happen that are inappropriate, then we have to deal with that issue. We should never try to cover it up and just act as if nothing had happened at all. So some of these things are serious. People may know, our listeners may know what happened with Hillsong and things like what happened there, you know, young boys got abused, other girls got abused and things like that. And if that ever happens, also in

our church, of course, we will involve law enforcement to get the things sorted out. God may forgive those people, and I'm sure He does, if they really repent and seek for forgiveness. But nevertheless, their acts, their sin, they have consequences also by law and we would never cover it up.

Yeah, I think sometimes people that are abused, they have a hard time… I heard stories that they feel bad themselves or guilty themselves and they have a hard time to actually judge the people for the bad that they did. But I think I'm saying it because in the whole topic it's important to see that there are bullies or there are mean people and wicked people. And if someone is wicked and keeps to be wicked and against the word of the Lord stays wicked and against the leadership stays wicked or such things, and then you do not

have to try to be the friend or try to, you know, have to reconcile yourself with that person. It's okay then to say no, Because we are also not victims and the Lord did not make us victims, He also gave us a worth and dignity, and if other people stamp on that dignity, then we don't have to tolerate everything that they do. But I want to say this very carefully, because there might be very sensitive people and they feel like people say 1 comment or something and they are hurt in their pride and then they say,

oh, my dignity is hurt and That's such a bad person and bad pastor and now I'm leaving the church. So, please understand it the right way. Yeah. We are

not really talking about correction, because there are some people when the pastor preaches about sin or is correcting some behavior and tells them to the best of his knowledge and conscience, and also wants to give them spiritual advice, and if they are offended then, that is not church hurt. I mean, that is just flesh hurt. People are offended by that, maybe they don't want to change. Of course, of course. It also depends how the pastor addresses it. It's not just like, you know, you can't treat people... I'm just extreme now. You can't treat people like dirt

and talk to them that way. And you as a pastor, you want respect, and of course people should respect the office of the pastor and so on, but also, I think, as a pastor, you need to respect the sheep, you need to respect the members of the church. Nevertheless, they are not yours, they are God's sheep and God's people and the members and God died for them. You are, as a pastor, You are just a steward here on earth. You are just a steward to the real shepherd, which is Jesus Christ. You are like, I would

say, maybe like a steward shepherd. And you got the privilege to take care of the flock, But you have to do it also in the right way. Totally understand that. But if you do it on the right way, and you do it with a loving heart, and correct people, and they still are offended and leave, that's not what we are talking about, Churchhood. But we were mentioning about severe damages or hurt that people can do, like, you know, what is it, abusing people and stuff like that. So it's advisable for every church to be careful and

to have some limits and borders. And I'd say A leadership person, let's say a male person, should not counsel a lady just all by himself somewhere. No. Always there should be somebody else, preferably let's say it's the pastor or it's the youth leader, I don't know, then his wife should be around, if it's a lady there counseling, his wife should be around or somebody else, and it should be always a place where everybody can have access to. Of course, sometimes you need to take the person on the side because it's a private conversation, but still somebody

else needs to be there. But still, people should have access to the room if necessary. Because we don't want any false or rightfully accusations. And we do not want to give room to the devil. Yes. And unfortunately that happened in the past, also in apostolic churches, where some people, maybe even pastor's sons, got a position as a youth leader, for example, and they had inappropriate conversations with some other youth in the church, or minors actually in the church, and this youth pastor's son was coddled, was lustful and things like that. And this is very dangerous, especially

then when they are alone. And sometimes, like you said, sometimes the victims of it, ladies for example, they feel guilty, they feel ashamed and sometimes they even think it was their own fault. And everybody out there that listens to this episode and may have experienced something like that, it is not your fault. Or it's not only your fault. And that's what the devil tries to make people believe. Oh, it's your own fault, don't say anything. So this thing could go on and on till sometime it will explode or whatever. And then the damage will be even

greater. And that's the aim that the devil has. But if things like that happen, pray, and you need to talk about it. You need to go to the pastor. I mean, I'm talking about severe things, like abusing people. Then you're not going to anybody else. Go to the pastor. Of course, if it's the pastor doing it, it is difficult. You need to go to the elders of your church and talk about that, pray about it. And there should be always, in our churches at least, there should be always somebody else that is overseeing a local pastor,

that is a pastor for that local pastor. And if that pastor is really involved in it, you should pray about it, like I said, you should talk with the elders of your church and then you should address it with him and you should address it with his pastor then. And then you need to find a solution for it. It is a delicate situation to do that, but unfortunately, things like that had happened in the past. And you never know, the devil tries to find room to do it again somewhere. I'm praying that God will always protect

us from this kind of thing.

Yes. But even there, you shouldn't leave that bitterness inside of you. Even when you got abused by a leader or by a pastor, that's also important. Even if the pastor was held responsible for it, you have to see that you can keep your bitterness or yeah, keep your hurt and leave it and let it go. Because at the end of the day, if you don't let go, like we hurt before, it will hurt you much more than the other person who you haven't forgiven. So always keep that in mind, even though you have been hurt, abused,

or whatever, to really pray for that person as well. And really, I mean, the Lord says it, love your enemies. So that's a big, I mean, it's not easy. It's not even close to easy, but it's in the Bible. And so we have to live by that and live through it. How do we do that? By really praying for the person, praying for yourself that you can forgive and can let go because only the Lord at the end can really actually help you in that thing.

Yeah. He and his Holy Spirit, I think like you need the Holy Ghost to work in you and get you over those kinds of things, because he's the, the Bible says he's the comforter And so He really knows best how to deal with our inside, with those emotionally difficult things also, and to help us to rise above them and overcome.

And I also think that God knows how much time you would need to recover from it. You forgive, but the process of forgetting, you may not even be able to forget that, of course, but the process of forgiving may not be done in just 1 day, 1 little prayer, and that's it. It depends how severe the abuse or hurt was. And I think God is gracious, and he knows that sometimes we need a little time to really get over it. But eventually, we have to get free from it.

And it's important that we use that mercy and grace that we have in Jesus. Because it says in Hebrews 4, 15 as well, for we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. And 16, let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." Because Jesus, he was hurt as well by his closest friends. I mean, it was the 12 apostles, and 1 of

those closest friends betrayed him in the worst way possible. And he betrayed him to be killed in the end, to be tortured and killed in the end for 30 pieces of silver. So that's, it's like, well, the friendship was worth nothing, you know, it was for him, it was just okay, I put him there now And well, I hope something, he'll work it out somehow. Even with a kiss, he betrayed him. I think there must have been such a, I mean, because Jesus, he was still human. He still had those emotions and feelings. I mean, as

God, he has also feelings. So In that moment, being kissed by His friend as a betrayal, what a moment! And He even called him and said, Friend. He even still called him friend in that moment. I think that is so Amazing how God, even in this moment, still extended grace, still extended His hand to that person that hurt Him so bad. So we have that possibility to come to Him, because He knows how it feels to be betrayed. He knows how it feels to be hurt. So if you're in that position right now, you can find

peace and you can find that healing in him.

Yeah. I think that's why they call him Prince of Peace. When you read verse like you just said, Jude just betrayed him and he's calling him friend. That's, or How does it say it? I have it here open right now. Friend wherefore art thou come? He still calls him friend, even though he knew Jude just betrayed him and treated him worthless. He just took some money and that was worth for him to, you know, get him accused and in judgment and killed and everything.

And when you think about it, he knew the whole time. He knew that eventually the decision would be made to betray him. But still he called him, in the moment he called him he knew okay this could be the end, this could be the outcome of me calling him and instead of going around it like oh no I'm you know don't keep him close he kept him very close. It's

amazing. Even Peter who denied it 3 times he used him after that even though he was saying no no no I had nothing to do with this person, nothing to do with this person. And he also told him, hey, you're going to deny me 3 times. Never, never, never. But even though he knew, he still wanted to use them at the end, also for the church that we see now today. So that's how great God's grace is and love is for us.

Yeah. Jesus shows us here how far we might have to go for something else that we read in the Bible in Romans 12, 18, where it says, if it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. So if we see how far Jesus went To live at peace with Peter, to live at peace with us, because we were enemies of God, but He came and made peace in between us. So that can maybe help us with very difficult hurts to also make peace.

Yes. So it is not uncommon that people get hurt in church, but God will give you the strength to resolve it and to really forgive people. And don't be amazed or wonder if people are offended by you.

Yeah.

It's not just that people offend you, maybe you offend people and you don't realize. And sometimes even if you have good intentions and you say, or give good advice or want to encourage people, it could be that people turn against you. And that is not uncommon. Even people turned against Jesus Christ while He was on earth doing His ministry. In the beginning of His ministry, His whole family, besides his mother, his brothers and sisters, they were against him. And during his ministry a lot of people left him because of his teachings and he eventually also asked

his disciples, do you also want to leave me? But they said, no. Peter said, where should we go? You are the only 1 that has the living words that we need, the words of life. And that's the thing. Stay in the church. Stay in the place where God called you to, because that's the place where he saved you, And that's the place where He will form you and create a person out of you that He really intended you to become. So stay there, go in prayer. I know sometimes it's not easy when you're hurt in church,

but eventually God will help you to get over it and His Spirit will comfort you and will give you the strength to forgive. So this was a heavy episode. It was not an easy topic. And of course we are not done like always, you know, but we have to cut it now and get to the end. So thank you for listening, thank you for tuning in and if you have any comments about that episode we would love to read them, write them down. If you have some ideas what topic we should do next let us know

and write them also down in comments. Subscribe if you have not and tune back in on Thursday next week when we have another English episode. And if you do understand German by the way, you can also tune in on Monday. All of our episodes will be published at 5pm. So well, you have a good week. God bless you all and we hope to have you back on this podcast next time.

Yes, till next time.

Bye-bye. Yeah, see you soon. I'm out. Bye.

Bye. Bye.