#18 "Navigating Parenthood: Insights and Empowerment for Parents of Teenagers" with Dr. Alan Mueller

Cheryl Pankhurst: Welcome to another episode of Teen Minds redefined where we strive to redefine the relationships we have with our teens. We want to Foster them to become their own authentic selves as they grow into these beautiful human beings on the planet. And today. I have a wonderful guest Dr. And Dr. Alan Mueller is a passionate advocate for authentic transformation. He started adaptive challenge Consulting in 2014 to help organizations navigate their greatest challenges through listening and real conversations, Dr. Mueller has worked in finance sales higher education and even hospitality

Cheryl Pankhurst: There is unique journey of failures and successes. He has gained insight into organizational leadership and development Dr. Mueller always brings authenticity and humor with him whether assisting organizations on their inclusion efforts or helping them evaluate their programs. Welcome Dr. Alan Mueller.

Alan Mueller: Thank you so much. that bio makes me feel important. Thanks.

Cheryl Pankhurst: You are. And full disclosure. I want to say this because We find our guests from very different places. I do.

Alan Mueller: Sure.

Cheryl Pankhurst: They never pay me to guest. But we can be on Facebook groups. I could be on Instagram and see somebody's energy and not know how many followers they have or what they have or who they are and just say I really like their energy. So I believe we were on Facebook group for I think guesting on podcasts.

Alan Mueller: aha

Cheryl Pankhurst: And your blurb about your kids and your life and I'm like, okay, I want him on here energy is standard. And so the energy that we exchange is never money. It is the energy where we feel like,

Cheryl Pankhurst: This is what I want to bring to my audience. These are parents of teens. Mainly I do hope that parents can coerce their kids into listening to some of these podcasts on the way to the mall…

Alan Mueller: Do kids still go to the mall.

Cheryl Pankhurst: if you want to ride. This is what you have to listen to.

Alan Mueller: I thought that's not the 80s the

Cheryl Pankhurst: Okay, listen. we're gonna have a problem if you're gonna age me through this whole

Alan Mueller: I feel like we're in a pretty similar zone. So I mean I feel like we had the best music and running from garden hoses and rode on Rusty slides and things. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: And my kids are wearing the clothes.

Alan Mueller: Yeah. They're back in style.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I wore in the 80s. So take that to the bank. That's right. So,…

Alan Mueller: Wow.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I want to start with you have love and logic parenting developmental psychology of teens. I want to talk about that and I find that. when I sit down I want to ask this and I want to ask this and I want to ask this and then we start talking and we never get to there because then we start talking about something else. That's really important. So talk to me first about…

Alan Mueller: Sure.

Cheryl Pankhurst: what you do who you are this whole thing that you have in your house. Dive In

Alan Mueller: Yes, so I spent 20 years in sort of a career working with college students. And so I worked in this thing called student affairs and student affairs is all the things that make colleges and universities tick outside the classroom. So it's the career center. It's the counseling center. it's the residence Halls. It's the Multicultural Center. It's all those things and then I'm married to a school counselor. My wife works with children, little children kindergarten through fifth but both of us at the heart of what we studied in our master's degrees was developmental psychology. Right? It's that the idea and if you're listeners aren't familiar with that notion. It's just the idea that when someone's a kindergartener, they're making sense of the world in a certain way. And by the time there are third grader, they're gonna be making sense of the world in a more complex way and on and on and on and then when they're a teenager and then when they're a young adult Etc and so developmental psychology and the idea that people are learning

Alan Mueller: Wing constantly is at the heart of what both of us studied formally then my wife went to a seminar on love and logic parenting and brought a book home. Right when we had our first kid and my gosh, it was the best thing ever. I have a 19 year old in the 15 year old. I have never ever had a temper tantrum in my house. I've never had a slammed door with them yelling. You don't understand trying to draw out the learning and…which is things that people told me I was going to have A teenagers and I think my experience as a gen xer. I mean, I think that I was used to that and the love and logic system. I can't say enough. it's an amazing system and two the thing that's really cool is when I was working in colleges universities. I'm helping students.

00:05:00

Alan Mueller: Plan that the next formal dance or I'm helping them with a leadership program, but I'm 

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: the love and logic system fit me so well, and I told my wife I'm like this is just sort of what I do in my profession organically, be empathetic and hold them accountable and then support them if they need support and don't forget to remind them that consequences happen the love and the logic that was a part of my practice anyway, and now there was this book that helped us to our kids. Yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Holy Grail, Holy Grail, empathy is so I work a lot with them CPS Ross green and it's all about empathy and it's all about, expectations and behavior the slamming of the doors and the temper tantrums are just secondary just a piece of communication saying I can't do what you need me to do and I don't know how to handle that and…

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: when we put that lens on and we keep it on tight our relationships with our kids with anyone. You…

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: it's like students do well when they can. And so when they can't…

Alan Mueller: Right, right.

Cheryl Pankhurst: then it's time for us to sit down and have those conversations and I think it's so important. So it's funny. I Worked in student affairs for the last three years for 25 years. I worked with very high needs.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Students in high school nonverbal ASD physical aggression a lot of that.

Alan Mueller: Okay, okay.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I work or a lot of Kevlar for a lot of years. And then the last few years of my role was also in student affairs in a high school.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: So helping kids get ready for post-secondary and…

Alan Mueller: Okay.

Cheryl Pankhurst: it overlapped because I was also that disabilities Advocate where there's a lot of steps you can take there's a lot of supports in colleges and universities now and…

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: so it's that transition. so I feel you first of all, I send a trophy to your wife because Those younger kids nope. Nope. I don't know…

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: how teachers do it and I love teenagers. I love to sit in a room with them. I love their energy. I love their honesty most of the time and…

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: and I say this all the time. I sometimes rather spend time with teenagers and some adults. But the younger kids hats off.

Alan Mueller: Yep, and I'll tell you in our community in North Carolina. We live in a Metro region with about two and a half million people that's three mid-sized cities, but in our County she works at the only inclusion elementary school. That's an inclusion school. And then the college I worked at two colleges ago, which was the only Quaker College in the south of the US was known very very well in the autistic Community as an Autism Spectrum friendly campus, but we had a lot of students and we weren't at the Universal Design stage and I don't yeah,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yep, absolutely.

Alan Mueller: we weren't there but we had it on our radar in other words. We were striving towards it so, and there's other stories. I can tell there about a class called improv comedy and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: the Art of the job interview.

Cheryl Pankhurst: yes.

Alan Mueller: And so I'm an improv comedian. I've been doing it for about nine years. And we had this little mini semester a little three and a half week term where we could teach one experience base course and I ran the career center and I was like, how do I make applying for jobs not boring because it's boring and so I started teaching this class called Improv Comedy in the art of the job interview because every job interview you'll ever do is improv, right? I mean someone asked you a question you don't have and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yep.

Alan Mueller: then I got to work through some of my biases because

Alan Mueller: So sorry, I got a phone.

Cheryl Pankhurst: No problem.

Alan Mueller: I got a phone call and I pressed the client. for your editor's purposes? Okay, so I was teaching a course called improv comedy and the Art of the job interview and campus where I worked was an Autism friendly campus and students who I talked previously on the Spectrum, would typically bring me an accommodation and in the US system. They bring you an accommodation where you alter the course a little bit to provide an environment free of distraction those kinds of things. And I realized my course could have been called distraction 101 because improv comedy is like how do you navigate The Art of distraction, And so when I had an autistic student or to take the course initially I had to think twice I had some biases I had to unpack And then once we got into it and once you understand that being a good improv comedian is not about being creative and witty. It's about following rules.

00:10:00

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah bingo.

Alan Mueller: and it not only is about following rules. It's also about the best improv Comics have this amazing ability to sort of zone out on the nonverbals that their partner is giving. And if you know something about folks autism spectrum disorder, it's not a universal experience, but many people in that community.

Alan Mueller: Quote unquote struggle with I'm gonna put quotes here but challenged by reading nonverbals that people who aren't on the Spectrum read very intuitively. That's actually an amazing asset when you're doing an improving to not getting your head about what your scene partner's nonverbals doing to actually listen to the literal things.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes.

Alan Mueller: They're saying and So I taught that course for five or six years and by the time I was in my third year the secret was out and I had so many students on the Spectrum taking my course and some of them were the best improvisers I ever taught and it was such got to check my own biases a little bit…

Cheryl Pankhurst: That's amazing.

Alan Mueller: because I was like, of course, I'm gonna support them and I'm gonna do the accommodations that they need but I had some anxiety about their fitting into how I had thought of the class and it was education for me as well, which was awesome.

Cheryl Pankhurst: becomes a superpower

Alan Mueller: My gosh such as we actually would take the students to The Comedy Club. And one of them ball it was an audience volunteer got up on stage and didn't did this thing and then my colleagues from The Improv troop leader was like do you think he's interested in joining The Troop I'm like, he's 19 so I don't know,

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah. That's amazing.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, but it was really cool. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: so I could just go down so many different paths, but what I want to talk about is and…

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: it just kind of struck me this morning. And you're going to be that the other side of it, so I'm Just at a high school.

Alan Mueller: Yeah. Sure.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I'm sorry just at a high school. I just retired just that it's good.

Alan Mueller: I knew what you meant. I was with you I was with you.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Thank And I'm sitting here thinking this morning that the kids who entered great nine. in 2020 Are your graduates? in September And I don't want to.

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: There's a lot of great things. We got out of covid. I like to try and focus on some of the positives. but What are we looking at for kids coming In College University.

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I'm going to say it's a blanket post-secondary.

Cheryl Pankhurst: what do we need to tell parents about allowing that to happen because I think what stuck with me the last couple of years were. we've got to fill these gaps and they're going to get into the first year college and they're not going to know this and they're not gonna know that but It's global. Everyone is going to be in the same spot emotionally and socially getting into that first year.

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: So we don't have to pressure the kids right? So, can you talk about that?

Alan Mueller: right

Alan Mueller: So first of all, I would always see these reports about our kids are going to be behind and I'm behind who this was around the globe. so this ultra competitive thing that's very present in the US and in a lot of Western countries, the very competitive thing real and so that weighs on people and it's something else that's sort of in the background is this idea that my student has to do this and get perfect grades and this to make it that and my gosh stop just stop life life is a highway. I'm gonna tell you your listeners. you're talking to somebody. I know my bio sounded like I have my stuff together it took me seven years to finish college and when I finished my GPA was 2.16, right and so I joke with people that my friends graduated magna c** laude and summa c** laude. I just Thank the laude I can't believe he even made it and so, I have a Philosophy degree in my back pocket and my skills mostly I had been a cook and a waiter and a restaurant right? and that was

Alan Mueller: Seven years post high school, that's where I found myself with a Philosophy degree with a c c average and some skills on cooking and waiting tables, right and this idea that your 15 16 17 year old has to have a perfect resume and a perfect this and a perfect that to get the next phase. We have to demystify that. We have to break that down II also too though.

00:15:00

Cheryl Pankhurst: Thank you.

Alan Mueller: As soon as I say I realize I grew up kind of white middle class, And that there are other communities where some of that Perfection is that's gonna unlock this for me educationally, which is gonna help get me out of poverty maybe or help raise my profile in a way that is helpful given what I'm navigating in terms of isms of my community the racisms and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: the transphobia and all that jazz. So I want to say the both hand which is we need to normalize the growth mindset, which failure is part of life. Failure is alert can be a great Learning Partner can be a great old friend. I taught another course called careers in the Arts, music majors and theater majors and I'm a music person and I'm a theater person but don't have a degree in any of that. So I got together with the faculty from the theater department and the music department. But what I did is I brought in all these other people to be in my class who were actually in the field. And it was people who are like, I'm a full-time dad or a full-time mom, and I do set design.

Alan Mueller: Or I'm not rich in famous, but when you need an afro Peruvian drummer in New York or New Jersey, I am the person everyone calls and I make a living at it. Right or I'm a session musician in Nashville. And sure you're not gonna see me on a music video. But if you look at the liner credits of half the stuff you're listening to that's me on the drones kind of thing. Right and these amazing folks who just some amazing amazing stories of failure and success and failure and success. One of the things that kept saying was make friends with rejection right make friends with that.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: So to your point the whole okay, they're entering ice there and their post-secondary thing at a disadvantage. I'm then collectively and compared to what and so it doesn't because those people who are entering first year university. There's a comparable Padre of people who are entering middle school so, the teachers know Educators know the support systems know and the general principles of how to provide support are still there.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes.

Alan Mueller: The general principles of we are, at colleges universities. Typically there's a lot of time and energy spent on the first year. How do we help students with that first year because if they get past the first year, it's more like they'll graduate and what support system just the orientation program. It's the university 10. Course that's about study skills and those kinds of things and so, colleges universities. They're as ready as they were before and I mean, it's it even though those students may have lost some of the things that a cohort above them had. They also gained some things that are fascinating and interesting and so, I think in the grand scheme of things our kids are much more resilient than we think

Alan Mueller: Right any first time parents like that with my first kid every time a pacifier fell in the ground. I would sterilize it boil it and whatever before giving it back to my kid and then my second kid came along and I was wiping on my shirt. Here you go, right because I had to learn that my children after I had, maybe even dropped my kid on a couch or something right or you have to learn that they're gonna transcend they're resilience and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: yeah.

Alan Mueller: and they have this wealth of Readiness for Change and this is the only World they've known in other…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: There's not a non-covid world for them to miss that they don't miss that…

Cheryl Pankhurst: exactly Yes.

Alan Mueller: because it doesn't exist to that. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I did one of my first solo episodes was on a pet peeve a helicopter parents.

Alan Mueller: My gosh, and it comes from and it's so interesting because When I held my first child. I described to people first of all after watching my wife give birth I decided that I have uterus because my gosh that was amazing and second of all as I'm holding my first child. I tell people I'm like, yeah, apparently there's a crazy switch in a brain and when you hold a child for many parents, it gets flicked right where all of a sudden…

Cheryl Pankhurst: and then

Alan Mueller: but And before I had a kid, that dog was my fur, baby. And then as soon as I got home with the kid, I was like, that dog's a threat and I love the dog. but all of a sudden the switch, right I have to protect this little human.

Cheryl Pankhurst: yeah.

Alan Mueller: Because I need it because you look at animals, and I go to the Animal Kingdom at Disney a lot with my kids and they talk about a baby giraffe within minutes of being born is standing up and walking around and a lot of animals are like that and humans are so fragile at the beginning. and so the helicopter parent phenomenon, I think comes from

00:20:00

Alan Mueller: The parents not understanding that they have the agency to toggle that switch back off and that they need to and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes.

Alan Mueller: the more important thing and love the love and logic system doesn't say this per se but my wife and I always kind of said this and then Michelle Obama who in the US she was a first lady like that the wife of the president down here Michelle Obama said this I heard on NPR and I was like, I wish I had copyrighted or something because she said that we're not raising children. We're raising future adults. And my wife and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes, yes.

Alan Mueller: I always thought that we're not raising children. We're raising. Younger people in the future adults and I am so proud of the adults that my kids are becoming like, I can't even and this is so diametrically opposite of how I was raised. I mean entirely opposite Yeah it yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah, I was so sure. I was so sheltered in every sense of the word and only child so there was nobody to break the ice and…

Alan Mueller: mmm

Cheryl Pankhurst: and I had a beautiful childhood my parents wonderful. So there's no complaints but notice and…

Alan Mueller: Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes, but I always say to parents even when they were hovering. I would say. They're going to think you don't have faith in them. To me.

Alan Mueller: Yeah. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: That is the biggest thing you're telling them. I'm going to fix this because I have no faith how to do this and it's such an empowering. switch

Cheryl Pankhurst: to give them and even this whole when I started this podcast started to be talking to parents of kids who are near Divergent and special education and it has now evolved into we just want our kids to grow up to be themselves not our dreams of what they should be. Not what we missed out on that, University still open make your own application. So as kids are coming into college and choosing their programs What would you say to parents about those programs about picking about allowing?

Alan Mueller: My gosh, stop the pressure. so I'll give you a real quick story. It was first of all, let me frame it to say that the Baby Boomers. Thought that you go to college to learn a certain skill set that is going to be entirely equal to a career and a career you're going to work for that same company forever. I saw something on LinkedIn where it says the Boomers joined a company gen xers joined a profession and the Millennials are joining a life and Building Things around that right?

Cheryl Pankhurst: 

Alan Mueller: And I'm like, my Boomer in-laws and parents and stuff. We're like the company put people

Alan Mueller: Me I was in my profession deeply but I don't know five or six different places. I kept moving place to place and then the Millennials are at least in the US or dramatically changing our work life balance, which is amazing.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Love it.

Alan Mueller: Props the Millennials, but as to that question about I was sitting in this giant meeting with all these heads of Industries and education. It was part of this Consortium in my city has gosh I think two large universities with 50,000 students each and then five or six small private colleges. I mean, it's booming with college Disney universities and then all of this industry FedEx and Volvo trucks and Wrangler jeans. If you've ever had Wrangler jeans or Lee Jeans, that's from my city.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Okay.

Alan Mueller: So I'm sitting here with the CEO of Wrangler jeans Who by the way wears jeans to work, right and the CEO of hondajet and FedEx and all of these companies and all these chancellors and we're talking about how to get college students to want to stay in our city. Our city is a little bit more geared towards families. They want to conscious State and somebody who was that one of the liberal arts colleges. Said I'm curious of all of these leaders of industry and all these leaders here. How many of you either studied liberal arts a study that a LeBron's college or study like a Humanities or social science at a state, Public University Almost everybody in the room. The one exception was they had the city comptroller who's like the finance person and that person had actually studied business everyone else these Titans of Industry.

Alan Mueller: Had all studied Humanities and liberal arts in these kinds of things and so, the idea that you need to rush to a stem major science technology engineering math, because that's where all the jobs are, Etc. Stop. let's Let there sort of the mold versus unfold let your student unfold right the molding Can Happen by how you live your life the example you share. I always say I'm trying to be the Elder. I wish I had right but the idea and I get it I get it because

00:25:00

Alan Mueller: A real thing right paying the rent is a real thing. so for some people can I share a little story about it?

Cheryl Pankhurst: worse

Alan Mueller: And I wrote an article about this once in a student affairs thing where I worked at a Quaker institution, and if you're a listeners or Quakers committed to nonviolence broadly Protestant, although some Quakers would not even consider themselves people of Faith but more philosophical Quakers and I worked at this Quaker institution and Quakers by Nature are sort of against war and weapons and that kind of thing. And I explored this notion where I would go into all these classes with first-year students. I would be that I'm the assistant Dean for career of online take come on into our Center. We're gonna help you reach Your dream is a worthy dream my friend, whatever your dream is come in and we'll help you reach your dream because your dream is worth. And then I had a student come in and say I really want to work in the arms industry.

Alan Mueller: And I'm like, Wait, So your dream isn't worthy dream. I did say that and I'm working at a Quaker place where we are staunchly and forever opposed to violence and you want to work in an industry that only thrives if there is violence and I had this moment of what do I do? Right? What do I do?

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: And so, I don't know where I was going with this exactly but those challenges of the idea of rush to a stem. when I was reflecting on this later. I realized that Even though that's a choice. I would never make and even though it was something that I personally was opposed to. I later learned that this particular young woman grew up with a single mom.

Alan Mueller: And that they didn't come from much money and that she had a connection with somebody who worked in military logistic support equipment or something like that and wanted a job there that was gonna help her Escape poverty. And so the layers were tricky enough that I got an article published about it and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: there were more things too about students that I'm helping to coach to get into graduate school and they're sort of exploring. how much of their queerness might they put on the paper, They put on their statement or all the different things that are the trade-offs that people have to make but…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: but again, to parents and this is the hard part is Parents have their own work to do sometimes right so that's the thing and that's why the love and logic book is so amazing. So I don't sell these books. I didn't write these books. I'm just a fan because If parents who've experienced their own trauma or have their own baggage or want to relive their life through their kid and all the things right? This book give you a little wedge to just be like, so I have the book and the book is this little wedge between this molding. I want you to be my dream of you and be unfolding that's just gonna happen because it's a human being that's on their own journey and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: their journey is gonna go past your journey, so this book can be a wedge even if the parent has their own things because a lot and I've had the privilege that I went to therapy when I was in my late twenties changed my life put me on a path of emotional autonomy and interdependent relationships and all of these things. However, not everybody has that and even if those words to some of your audience is interdependent wait, do I have to Google things right? This it's sort of like boundaries for dummies, right? There was a series of books in the US God computer programming for dummies,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah, yeah. podcasting for dummies

Alan Mueller: It's podcasting for dummies, but it's like it's so much if it's about boundaries and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: and like you said the helicopter parent thing. Love and Logic resituates the parents from the fixers to the coaches. and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: when a short version I tell people is a kid breaks a toy and they come to you crying love and logic is comfort that kid because I remember what it was like to break a toy. That's a sad thing comfort that kid Hold them. Whatever it is that signifies love for you. Then as they calm down. Don't go fix their problem, be so that toys broken. It's probably not gonna be as much fun to play with and you do have other toys and if you replace that toy, I guess you could do some odd jobs and earn some money and do the things and I'll support you in that. As opposed to so many parents. They hear the kid crying over the broken point. The solution is go buy a new toy.

00:30:00

Alan Mueller: And so you're becoming this fixer of all things and then once you start doing that kids understand psychologically wait without words, they understand if I cry like this I will get that result in this that will get fixed for me. And that does not fair students well for life,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Good luck in the workplace.

Alan Mueller: it doesn't. Get it, right they have.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I don't like my boss. and Mom's not coming in to fix the supervisor And it starts so young it just needs to start young.

Alan Mueller: haha

Alan Mueller: I've yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: It's funny the other day my son put a poster real or whatever the hell you want to call it on Instagram and we hadn't talked about this or anything, it so I would come home and tell my mom that my grade six teacher doesn't like me. And she would say and what are you going to do about that? And I was like, yes, it's duck…

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: because I would be in high school and parents would say no. I don't want Mrs. Jones for math because I hear she and I would just say we don't student shop.

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: You can't teach your shop. So we're gonna teach them the skills because she's gonna have Mrs Jones as a supervisor in the next

Alan Mueller: Sorry. I think this time I did I did it right.

Cheryl Pankhurst: That's okay. okay.

Alan Mueller: I was getting a call from my son and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: I just don't.

Alan Mueller: it turned off my camera. Okay?

Cheryl Pankhurst: No problem. And yeah, so it's sticks. I'm telling you it sticks and

Alan Mueller: It does.

Alan Mueller: Uh-huh.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Sorry, not sorry, but that's the way it goes. We have to this is an acceptable.

Alan Mueller: Uh-huh.

Cheryl Pankhurst: We have to get them ready for University. no, we have to get them ready for second semester. And then in second semester,…

Alan Mueller: right Yes.

Cheryl Pankhurst: we're going to get them ready for grade 10 because if the pressure we put on kids when they're 14 saying. Got to get ready got to be this.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: You know what? That's like telling me in March. I need to be ready for Christmas not happening.

Alan Mueller: No, no. and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: It's not even happening in November.

Alan Mueller: yeah, and the thing that's crazy is that The things that they most need to be ready aren't always the academic thing, right and so the SAT and I don't know if north of the border of the Canada. The SAT is going away largely because people realize the SAT measures two things. Are you good at math and you have a strong command of the English language why I got to tell you getting through college is about resilience. It's about accepting when things don't go perfectly according to plan and adapting it's about navigating a system. It's about complex interpersonal relationships with roommates faculty with those are the things that actually predict success in University not algebra and vocabulary the fact that we've boiled it down to algebra vocabulary or I just geometry and vocabulary is really really silly,

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, those are important things. I'm not saying those are not important things but those are not the important things. Those are just some of the important. Yeah. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: That's That's right. When we talk about teachers. I was talking about the math and the sciences and I hate to say this but This is no filter Cheryl, so. There's in my experience a direct correlation between the teachers who? Graduated high school maths and science went straight to University maths and science became teachers math and science. And there is please go work in a bar, please go work it the local Tim Hortons or…

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: coffee shop, please develop because those are the skills.

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Those are the skills you need to have the conversations you need to be able to listen you need to be able to the customers always right in the sense that the customers always doing the best they can so now you're your student your kid,…

Alan Mueller: right

Cheryl Pankhurst: whatever they're always doing the best they can and if they're not we need to figure out what it is, they're struggling with but it's always start with must be really hard. That must be so hard.

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: You must be so frustrated whatever and repeating background. They might be feeling..

Alan Mueller: Yeah, and one of the things you're talking about, I mean, people call it emotional intelligence these days and it's so funny and if you're listeners can't see me. I'm a white guy, right and indigenous communities have had this notion for Millennia, but suddenly a lot of Europeans in North America are like branding it emotional intelligence come to I actually have a webinar coming up on emotional intelligence that so I am exactly the guy that I just talked about but this idea that that be and when you look at the Working World, there are many surveys about even just 15 years ago what leaders were expected to have skills and two things have come out of quote unquote nowhere to get what go up the list which is empathy and integral Intercultural competency. And when I say came out of nowhere people who do leadership development like me, we've been on this for 20 plus years.

00:35:00

Alan Mueller: But the corporate world in the US is starting to go Wait a second. So leaders should have empathy and listing skills and reflect on and speaking of perspectives of others. Should they think about race and gender and those kinds of things to be better leaders,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: 

Alan Mueller: I wonder right and so emotional intelligence like you said and there is a thing where people who are drawn to math and sciences and All these different Frameworks. There's the work of John Holland who did this thing you made the Discover or the world of work the realistic investigative artistic social that kind of thing Myers-Briggs,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: which I do a lot of work in For certain types of people go sort of certain directions and then those directions become a feedback loop. Kind of like you're talking about then more math science, and they surround themselves with those communities where if somebody's not introducing emotional intelligence in those kinds of things. They don't necessarily show up. Yeah. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Exactly, and we need to especially if you're going to be in this profession. There's that human connection that even…

Alan Mueller: Yeah. yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: once you start learning about it, you start embracing it. It might sound very foreign. It might sound like I'm learning Japanese. I don't know what is this feeling s***, but

Alan Mueller: right

Cheryl Pankhurst: That's a growth of the teacher the parent the kid. all together

Alan Mueller: Yeah, it's huge and not pooping the emotional and this is part of misogyny, right? This is part of toxic masculinity of that emotions have something to do with weakness or emotions are less important than logic or whatever. And when I do Myers-Briggs workshops, I'm like y'all stop it. Let's just stop there are other interesting things. And this is a funny thing. I think I often break a group into extroverts and introverts or people with extrovert preferences and people with intro preferences and I asked the whole group. I'm like has anybody ever heard the phrase resting Mitch face?

Alan Mueller: And they're like what I said resting Mitch face with an m and they look at me. They're like, I don't think that's a thing. I'm you're correct. That's not a thing because introverted men don't get their affect police by anybody. I'm like,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: being

Alan Mueller: I'm 40. Some odd years old. No stranger has ever just told me to smile randomly honey. You need to smile more. I've never had that happen, right and so then I turn to the extrovers and I say Look at how many of them are women.

Alan Mueller: And bonus, look at how many of them are also women of color and think to yourself. Have you ascribed aloof resting? what face have you ascribed, standoffish or attitude or whatever stop ascribing that now stop projecting that on to people right?

Cheryl Pankhurst: Wow.

Alan Mueller: And so this is part of emotional intelligence. I mean as tried and true as the Myers Brig is and the Meijer Springs has its own complicated backstory which I unpack with people but there's something about that that is that intersection gender straight on straight on because similarly with extroverted women, especially with some of the other Myers breaks tights but extra women extroverted man, go getters

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: Okay, can we not pick this apart a little bit better? Right? So the emotional intelligence piece you can start with extra virgin introverts and start with if you're an extrovert,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Mm-hmm

Alan Mueller: it's like being a bird and introversial like fish and fish think water is the norm and birds would drown in the water and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: .

Alan Mueller: and fish think they'll die which they will but for Birds air is the norm and so understanding that you've got a realize your own perspective is just your own perspective and go from there. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah, 100% and for me emotion is energy. But it doesn't mean an introvert who's sitting quietly and not interacting and it does not have energy they have energy, but you have to look you have to shed you…

Alan Mueller: Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I know my daughter in high school, I always got the call. She never raises her hand. She never answers questions. She never

Cheryl Pankhurst: And this is who she is. and that's okay, and…

Alan Mueller: yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: that was always the meetings that just used to make me like Yeah.

Alan Mueller: And to me, I think that this is the thing. I think that extroverts are never really pressured by Society to Introverts are pressured to be more extroverted every time I've ever seen a class syllabus that says class participation this many points as an extrovert. I'm like, yay so free points Most people with introvert preferences that's anxiety producing right or they're doing math in their head. How many times do I have to speak? So when I do this,…

00:40:00

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: I tell people not to be who you are but also work towards moving to the middle when you've got good energy right in other words.

Alan Mueller: We have to demystify introverts. You need to be more extroverted but understand when it's time and introverts already notice when it's time to turn it on and turn it off and then extroverts when it's time to turn it on and turn it off by that I mean your mouth right for extroverts,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Mueller: right and so understanding that builds empathy and builds grace and patience with each other and that's part of what we need. And so one real quick thing. I'll tell you I had a student in a leadership group name name Cecilia and after three weeks in the program. We met once a week for two hours. All the other facilitators came to my office. They were very concerned. They're we think Cecilia is really disengaged. I'm like, okay. I've noticed she's kind of quiet and then I looked at the other three facilitators like Check the mirror. Yep. I'm still an expert. Okay, wait a second. What are we doing? Then I asked what I said. Has anybody just stopped her and asked her. If she likes the program. So I said I'll be in the cafeteria later on flag her down. So I since Cecilia tell me how you like the leadership program.

Alan Mueller: my God, it's the best part of my week and I've made so many friends and I'm learning so much we had projected on to Cecilia that she was disengaged because her engagement wasn't loud like our engagement. That's it. Right and We need to check that and it's fair to say to Cecilia. Hey, you're extrovert your expert classmates have already let me know through their non-verbals and their verbals and what they have already queued me include me in right? Are you engaged in this it's fair to ask, but don't project in a suit, right?

Cheryl Pankhurst: yeah, and are you we Inters can decide for themselves. Where's the growth for me?

Alan Mueller: Yes.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Where's the growth for me? And our do you desire that growth? If that gives you energy watching something you think I'm really like to be doing that…

Alan Mueller: right

Cheryl Pankhurst: because that feels good.

Alan Mueller: Yeah. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Let's Foster that but if not, the whole thing about even this podcast is like we just want our kids we want everyone just to be their own authentic selves. And what does that mean?

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: That means like you said coaching. I got your back. But here you go. You take the lead. you're the team player you're the quarterback and…

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: and you need to make the play and then I'm there to catch you, and

Alan Mueller: I love that the quarterback thing. I mean, Yeah because that they are in charge of their own life, they are the driver of the ship of their life and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: and if we try to drive for them, we're gonna have boats crashing all over the place right or it's sort of like, you don't see coaches in football running out onto the field, right? You don't see that happening,…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: they talk to their quarterback. But once the ball is high once the ball is snapped that quarterback is the field commander so to speak they're making those things happen at

Cheryl Pankhurst: And everybody on the field says I got faith in you. And if you miss the throw,…

Alan Mueller: Yep. Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: that's okay. Let's come back and talk about it, but I got faith in you and…

Alan Mueller: Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: that's so big for parents to hear. You have to let them know.

Alan Mueller: It is.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Even if you don't even…

Alan Mueller: Yeah. fake it…

Cheryl Pankhurst: if you don't have faith in them too bad. you make it…

Alan Mueller: till you make it. Yep. Yep.

Cheryl Pankhurst: because they will prove to you.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Left right and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Center they got it.

Alan Mueller: I had a boss and…

Alan Mueller: he was a great guy, but his daughter was in grad school. And I was in his office when he got a call from her again. She was a graduate student getting a master's degree so inner twenties and she was sick and she went to some little clinic and her dad was sort of lecturing her on the phone and I just overheard this lecturing her on the phone about you hadn't gone to that clinic. I wish you had gone to your actual doctor and this that I'm like

Alan Mueller: This is a grown woman that you're speaking to and not just that but she's sick and you're sort of making commentary on how she sought help I'm like that is as helicopter as I've heard right and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: My God.

Alan Mueller: it's funny because that I ended up high years later. I ended up hiring that woman in one of my offices and she was a freaking rock star. She was amazing.

Cheryl Pankhurst: It was amazing.

Alan Mueller: And also was an introvert who grew up with two extra parents and two extroverted older brothers and forever thought she was an extra night girl, you just didn't want to get lost. you didn't want the Home Alone movie to happen to you, right? If you don't…

00:45:00

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Mueller: if you don't speak up you're gonna get lost in the shuffle, but To get out that she was an amazing introvert and total rock star but it's again I go back to this the crazy switch is real and so acknowledging when I first had children. And then I would be at orientation at a University at Sea parents dropping off their kid. I had a different level of empathy for them. And I had a different level of understanding and I do understand where the helicopter Instinct comes from. I have to honor that and acknowledge that it's real for me. and I have to

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: Put that in a corner. I have to put it in its context. I have to it aspire to parent better than through Instinct if that makes sense and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: and that switch have to turn it off. Sometimes I have to be like, my oldest son. We're from North Carolina a medium sized community and he's in college in Manhattan. And you know that there are 11 million people in Manhattan and North Carolina the state where I live has 11 million people for the whole state, so in North Carolina's probably about a third in size of Quebec, right? I mean, it's a big state with 10 million people and yet New York City has it, and my kid is up there. Right? One of the best developmental things. I love is sometimes they'll call me up Dad. I took such train as such as training're this show on Broadway or going over to Brooklyn for the day or this side of the other. And then the next call I'll get we'll say Dad. How do you know when toast is ready?

Cheryl Pankhurst: I love it.

Alan Mueller: And I'm like, this is developmental psychology 101 he has the confidence to navigate the public transit system in New York City, which I barely do after three visits. I'm starting to get there. and yet he's a little unsure about…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: how when toast is that it's maximum Readiness and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: But notice he can call you and…

Alan Mueller: He can call me.

Cheryl Pankhurst: ask you.

Alan Mueller: And to him I say when it's the right color brown for your taste buds, right what it's and you mentioned that your that sort of callback my kids the so many times over if they don't know how to do that. I'm like mean yet. I don't know…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes. Love it.

Alan Mueller: how to do this you mean yet? And so now my oldest who's 19 uses the yet on my 15 year old except he's a little bit misusing it because my 15 year old tries new foods occasionally and my older ones always right? You should try sushi, you should try this and he and then my younger son's like I don't like that and my oldest son you meet those you mean you don't like it yet and I'm like, okay, so you're a little bit misusing this it's about what you're able to do you're not what you like, but I'm glad that it has sort of and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yes. That's funny.

Alan Mueller: I hear my 19 year old young man's son. Saying yet to himself. In our conversations and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: I am blown away that he's studying musical theater and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: golden magnets

Alan Mueller: musical theater is a world where you are gonna face lots of rejection. When he was applying to universities. I think academically he got into 30, but then through the audition process only five of those and so think about the ratio there that means that the other 25 So got a rejection letter and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yeah.

Alan Mueller: not just that but a rejection letter of something that might have been personal to you a monologue or a song you saying or…

Cheryl Pankhurst: You good point?

Alan Mueller: some audition material. And to be able to navigate that with resilience. my gosh sets you up for all of the things like life's gonna keep throwing those things at you.

Cheryl Pankhurst: yeah redirection redirection

Alan Mueller: They're gonna be jobs. they're gonna be things that you're pursuing that you don't pan out. And yeah, so I'm exceptionally proud of the young adult he's become and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: I love that.

Alan Mueller: it is still becoming yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: That's awesome. I think I said my kid once not that long ago. It's like he just got engaged and he's happy and I'm divorced and went through all that and So I was you're happy we didn't mess you up too much and they both kind of went. Really? Okay, I'm checking myself right now.

Cheryl Pankhurst: But I'm glad that they can say those things.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I'm glad that and I feel empowered when they call me out on things. I shouldn't say or things. I'm getting wrong about race or Community or whatever. It is. that's what you want. You want someone who's gonna question the adults question the authorities and…

Alan Mueller: yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: I love that and I have to respect the time of this podcast. I feel like we could have three more I want to talk about that book more. We want to break down that book. I want to do emotional intelligence, but I just want to say to parents out there if you are feeling Any kind of resistance to this conversation? didn't deep Step back and figure out where you might need to do some work. because That's where it starts and there's no blame. There's never judgment. We do what we can with what we have.

00:50:00

Cheryl Pankhurst: But the resistance if you're feeling like my God, what a bunch of b** conversation. Maybe you should step back and think Let's reconsider.

Alan Mueller: Yeah, when I first started reading the book I did I was not on board. I'm like this this seems like one of those academically type things that works in some ways, but this is real life my friends I have crying baby here. And thankfully I had a partner who she was all in on it and we went all in and it was a fantastic tool and it's not the only tool…

Cheryl Pankhurst: Yep.

Alan Mueller: but it's a great cool just for resituating how you think about your role as a parent. are you the fixer of all things or are you a coach empowering someone to learn to fix their own things? because it's a dynamic shift there. Yeah.

Cheryl Pankhurst: So I'm gonna put the link to that book and everything else. Where can we find you Alan?

Alan Mueller: You can find me at adaptive Challenge consulting.com and real quick over on LinkedIn. I'm actually going to do a free webinar. gosh end of this month sometime on emotional intelligence. So if you like this conversation and…

Cheryl Pankhurst: fantastic

Alan Mueller: you want to get in the free webinar, it's on LinkedIn and if you just search adaptive challenge Consulting on LinkedIn, you can find out more about it there too. But we're gonna have a conversation about personality type and emotional intelligence and cultural humility in those kinds of things.

Cheryl Pankhurst: Amazing and we need to sequel because I think we need to break down the book. Awesome. Thank…

Alan Mueller: a hundred percent anytime

Cheryl Pankhurst: I'm so grateful for you. I knew the energy would be great. I knew you would just blow my mind, and you totally did and I just love it. Thank you so much Dr. Alan Mueller. Thank you for listening team lines redefined. Thanks for stopping We're so grateful for your time. Bye for now. it was great.

Alan Mueller: Thanks so much. Thumbs up worked out.