#27 "Revolutionizing Education: Breaking Norms: Homeschooling & Unschooling Insights" with Efrat Amira

00:02 - 00:48
Cheryl: Teen Minds Redefined, you're listening to the podcast with Cheryl Pankhurst. Welcome to an episode of Teen Minds Redefine, where we redefine our relationships with our teens as we foster them and help them get out into this world as these amazing human beings living the life they wanna live. And today I have a beautiful guest, Afrat Amira. And so I want you to get ready to toss your traditional parenting playbook out the window because we're gonna dive headfirst into the world of Afrat where rules are meant to be broken. Join us as we uncover her journey from

00:48 - 01:20
Cheryl: conventional mom to homeschool guru. And this is a story every parent needs to hear. Welcome, Afret. Thank you so much, Cheryl. I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited. You are a visionary host of a podcast as well, thought leader, homeschool advocate. So I think it's time for us to maybe explore some different ways to reimagine our parenting. And let's start with your story. Like what's your story? I think it's really

01:20 - 01:52
Efrat: important. Yeah, oh, I don't know how much back should I go, but generally, in general, I will try to make it short. So I'm Israeli, I come from Israel. We moved to the States 7 and a half years ago. We live in New Jersey right now. And when we moved to the States, I had a 2 and a half year old boy. And since then, I had 2 more boys. So I have 3 kids right now. They're almost 3, 6 and 10. I homeschooled them for the last 5 years. And this year they're going to an

01:52 - 02:35
Efrat: alternative education program which is basically a homeschooling co-op where we gather a few of us families together and we educate our kids in a way that we think that is right. We don't have any outside curriculum or anything that defines what we need to do. We just go with whatever we feel our kids actually need in order to thrive in this world and to live a fulfilling life. The journey to homeschooling was actually interesting because I never thought that I'm going to homeschool my kids when, you know, before I became a mom. And when I did

02:35 - 03:13
Efrat: become a mom, I send my child to a daycare when he was around a year old in Israel, which was fine. And I was working at the time. I was teaching in the Tel Aviv College and University. I was teaching sociology. I was sure that I'm going to pursue my PhD in sociology when I come to the U.S. When we moved here, I started doing the exams in order to get accepted to a, what I thought at the beginning that I wanted was to get accepted to an Ivy League college or a university. And I discovered

03:13 - 03:55
Efrat: pretty early that it's gonna be very hard for me because of the language barrier. I was okay in English, but not good enough in order to get accepted in 1 of those Ivy Leagues colleges. And also I got pregnant at the time. And when I really thought about it deeply, I understood that I don't want to live a really hectic career. I wanted to be with my kids. I wanted to be home with them. I wanted to raise them. And yeah, soon after, I met this lady that told me about the concept of unschooling. So she

03:55 - 04:35
Efrat: told me that she unschools her kids and I was like, what is that? What does that mean? So she said, well, basically, you live with your kids at home, they don't go to school, and they self-direct their own education. So you follow their interests, whatever they love to learn in the pace that they like to learn. You learn from living and doing by traveling to places, by going to the library, reading books, by playing outside and being outdoors, by meeting other friends. You just learn by living, basically. And I really, That was an aha moment for

04:35 - 05:11
Efrat: me and I really fell in love with this concept because I felt like the education system is not something that I really loved. And specifically the education system in the US is a very competitive 1. And kids in a very young age start to learn the ABCs and 123s. Like even when my son, when we moved here and my son was 2 and half, we signed them up to a preschool and they started teaching them the letters and the numbers and I was like, what? Why are you doing this so young? Because in Israel it's not

05:11 - 05:51
Efrat: like that. In Israel we only start around 8, 6 or 7 around first grade and up until then they're just free to play. So I really didn't like that and I thought that it's not benefiting my son at all. So this idea of keeping my kids home and unschooling them really seemed magical to me. And I dived into the literature and listened to a bunch of podcasts and I was really intrigued and I really want to try it for myself and for the kids. So I took my son out of school when he was 4 and

05:51 - 06:39
Efrat: a half and we just started this journey and it has been a very interesting 1 for sure. It hasn't been easy but I do feel that my kids have a lot of chance to be just who they are, to be children, to play a lot. My son now, he's 10 and he's very, very self-driven. He loves reading. He can read from the morning to night at any topic in the world. He loves cars. He's obsessed with cars actually. And he's dreaming of creating his own car company when he grows up. Yeah, so he's very ambitious and

06:39 - 07:14
Efrat: we're supportive of his dream, of course, and hopefully, you know, help him bring his dream to life. Whatever it will be, it will be that or something else, doesn't matter. But what I love about this approach is that we don't come with any preconceived notions of what our kids need to learn, how they need to be spending their days, what is the pace they need to be learning, when they need to learn how to read, when they need to learn how to write, what kind of, what math level they need to be at, at what age,

07:14 - 07:55
Efrat: and so on. We just follow their own interests and follow their pace and path and try to facilitate it as best as we can. So this year we did a change. So they're not home with me anymore. They went to this alternative education program, which I love because they also get a lot of that peer interaction that I felt was a little bit missing. Not because if you're home school, you don't get that a lot. You do get that a lot, but in the place specifically where I live right now, we live in like in a

07:55 - 08:28
Efrat: very remote area, so every time we need to meet friends is a drive, like 20-30 minute drive, And that just started to become too hard on me. So yeah, so I feel like now we have a good combination between following their interests, and giving them a lot of freedom to just be who they are and play and interact, but at the same time, interact with peers and their own age and have more of this like community sense rather than what we had before.

08:29 - 08:40
Cheryl: So What's the difference then? What's the difference between homeschool and unschool and co-op? What are the 3 differences there?

08:41 - 09:22
Efrat: Right. So homeschooling is a very wide definition of basically just educating your children at home. So inside the homeschooling world, there is 2 sides of, 2 ways, or 2 extremes. There is 1 extreme that is called the school at home, which you basically imitate whatever they're doing at school, but you did it at home, you have a desk, the kids sit and learn from this time to this time, they have tests. And they kind of just follow the norms, but in their house. And the other side of the spectrum, you will find the unschooling, or even

09:22 - 10:10
Efrat: there is the radical unschooling, where you follow the kids' interests, and you are the 1 that is facilitating their learning, but they are the 1 that is driving the car, basically. They are the ones that are deciding what they want to learn and how they want to learn. You are the observer, and you try to facilitate it by taking them to places, by providing materials that they need, by teaching them something that they want to learn by watching videos together, reading books together, whatever it is. And on top of that, there is the notion that whatever

10:10 - 10:46
Efrat: you do, just by living you are learning. So there isn't this separation between, okay, now you're sitting and learning because you're on a desk and you're reading a book or doing a workbook, and now you're outside playing or you're playing with friends, and that's not learning. So we see the whole experience of living as learning, even if we go to the supermarket together, they're learning, we go to the bank together, they're learning. Every opportunity in life, like from the moment that they wake up until the moment that you go to sleep, you're actually learning. So it's

10:46 - 10:53
Efrat: not like this black or white notion of, you know, when the kids are learning and when they're not.

10:54 - 10:56
Cheryl: Yeah, I loved that.

10:57 - 11:33
Efrat: It's a very interesting concept and I think pretty radical for many people. But if you think about it, kids are exactly like adults in the way that they learn. So think about yourself or, you know, people who are listening right now. If you're interested in something, you're gonna really want to learn and you're gonna dive into the books and you're gonna go to the museum and you're gonna Take that trip wherever it is and you're really gonna absorb that learning And if someone would have told you no, you're not supposed to learn this. Now you have

11:33 - 12:02
Efrat: to sit down and read this type of history. You need to practice this math, this type of math. Then he would say, what? Why? I want to learn this. This is what interests me. So children are not no different than us. They're actually more eager to learn because they don't have all the things that are stopping them from learning. They can just sit and learn and pursue their interests all day.

12:03 - 12:14
Cheryl: Okay, so when we talk about the basic skills, the literacy and numeracy skills, where do they get, like, where did your son learn to read? Like, how does that happen?

12:15 - 12:51
Efrat: That's a great question. So my son actually learned to read at a very like more, I want to say older on the older side of things. He learned to read only when he was 9 years old. And it's not because he wasn't capable. I think that his interest wasn't there yet before he was on. He wasn't really, he didn't really want to sit and learn and do, you know, do the work. On top of that, he was. A very, late speaker as well. Like he started to speak pretty late and he was by laying well. So

12:51 - 13:27
Efrat: I think that also had an impact on the time that he started to read. But I gave it a very long time to happen naturally. And many times it does happen naturally because kids, they just pick up on it by being read to and by seeing the letters and they start to ask questions and they're just curious because they want to learn how to read. I don't think that there is 1 person in our society that can grow up not learning how to read because this is just you have to have it in order to survive

13:27 - 14:05
Efrat: and thrive in our society. So I gave it a long period of time to happen naturally. And then I realized that he's having a bit of difficulty and I actually need to sit with him and teach him. So I, and he asked me, he asked me, can you teach me to read? I said, of course. So we found a book that was pretty easy. It was 10 minutes a day. And I started practicing with him, with the book. And after about a year, he started reading fluently. He's now, as I said in the beginning, he's an

14:05 - 14:38
Efrat: avid reader. He can just sit and read all day. And what I love about seeing his process is that I trusted him and I didn't put much pressure on reading and I waited until it was the right timing for him. So that now he just loves it because it's his choice. It's not something that I told him, you know, you have to say it every day to read for half an hour. No, I never, I would never say something like that to him. And he just chooses to do it, you know, and he reads whatever interests

14:38 - 15:00
Efrat: him. So it was just a very natural way of things that, you know, Why am I losing my words? It was just like a natural flow of things with him. And I'm really happy that it happened like that. Yeah.

15:01 - 15:29
Cheryl: So let's say, is there resources that parents go to to learn how to facilitate this still with kids? It's not like, I can't imagine my kids saying, okay, teach me math and me going, yeah, no. Reading maybe not math. So how do unschooling parents find those resources? Like, is there something out there? We're not just winging it.

15:30 - 16:09
Efrat: Yeah. Well, first of all, you can use all the resources. It's not that you are not allowed to use a curriculum. You can use a curriculum if that's what you want and that's what you need. There are no rules on what you need to do, what you can't do. It's just live and learn in the way that is right for you, for your family. And if your son, if your kid is someone that is really interested in learning through a curriculum, then great, that's going to work perfectly for them. But if your child is someone that

16:09 - 16:59
Efrat: is more into play-based learning, then you can adopt that. If your child likes to learn through watching YouTube's. That's okay too. Every way of learning is accepted, I want to say. There is no just 1 way of doing it. The key is to try to follow their way, try to understand what is their way of learning and what is the way that they love to learn. Because everyone is different. We have very different personalities. We have very different strength. And I want my kids to know that the way that they are is perfect, right? And I

16:59 - 17:11
Efrat: can help them, I can help by facilitating the way that they need to be in this world and not something that I decided in advance that they need to do or need to be on the way that they need to be.

17:11 - 17:19
Cheryl: Yeah which goes right into talk to me about Why not public school dropping

17:22 - 17:22
Efrat: them

17:22 - 17:44
Cheryl: off at a picking them up at 3 doing the homework for 2 hours? Why not now I've taught in the public school system for 25 years, and then the private school system for 3 years. So I have my own ideas of what I'm not appreciating. But what made you go, no, this is not for my kids?

17:45 - 18:29
Efrat: Yeah, well, when I was learning and teaching sociology, I have a master's in sociology. And 1 of the things that really opened my eyes to the education system is when I learned about the sociology behind the education system. And what the education system was built to do is basically prepare our kids to be workers in a factory, you know, and to prepare them to be good citizens of the state, which are both, I mean, we don't live in the era of factories anymore, but to prepare kids to be good citizens is not a bad thing to

18:29 - 19:18
Efrat: do, I want to say. But at the same time, I think that because our world is changing so rapidly, I don't think that I want 1 system to tell my kids what to think, not teach them critical thinking, that maybe the way that things have been done up until now is not the right way for everybody. And I think it's just, we are now questioning all our systems. All every system, every institute is being questioned right now. Whether it's the state, whether it's the medical institute, whether it's the educational Institute. And the reason why it's been

19:18 - 19:57
Efrat: questioned is because we have been able to look from outside the system. And the only way that we can change the world is by looking from outside and looking critically and ask if this is actually working for us anymore. So that's 1 aspect. The other aspect is that I feel like the things that they learn in school are just not really relevant anymore. You know, I have all the information I need on my phone right here on the computer. It's not something that is saved only for a small, you know, percentage of humans that can have

19:57 - 20:34
Efrat: access to education. Everybody has access to all the information in the world in the palm of their hands right now. So I don't think that necessarily people need to learn a specific type of geography, a specific type of history, a specific type of science. I mean, there is so much out there, you know? Yeah. So why should we all learn exactly the same thing at exactly the same pace? I don't know. It just doesn't make any sense to me anymore. And I do, I really feel that our kids, I mean, I'm sorry that maybe that can

20:34 - 21:06
Efrat: be a little hard for some people to hear, but I really feel that kids are kind of wasting their time there because they're sitting all day at a desk learning something that they didn't choose to learn. And are they really taking it in? Are they? I mean, if they finished high school doesn't mean that they know history doesn't mean that they know geography doesn't mean that they know science does they mean that that they that they're good readers doesn't mean that they're good writers? What does it mean? It just means that they went to class, they

21:06 - 21:47
Efrat: were in the class. That's a objective fact that we know, but what they actually took out of it, we don't know. And I think about myself, I was a very mediocre student, and I did the minimum in order to just pass the test. And I studied more deeply, I studied chemistry. And my mom just came to visit and she's a chemist herself. And she bought the periodic table for my son. And I'm looking at the periodic table and I'm like I don't remember anything of this you know although I did like deeper learning of that subject

21:47 - 22:15
Efrat: in school, I don't remember anything. I don't remember so much of the things that I learned because I just wasn't interested in it. So I feel like it's kind of a waste of their time and each 1 of them have their own gifts to give to the world. So why do they have to be confined to a classroom, to a place that tells them how they need to be and what they need to be, what they need to learn. I don't know, it just doesn't make any sense to me anymore in the world that we are

22:15 - 22:17
Efrat: living right now. And that makes

22:17 - 23:01
Cheryl: sense to me. And when you even say, originally it was to teach our kids to be good citizens, is it, or is it teaching kids to conform to be the citizens that we want them to be when they leave. Yeah, that is, I think a big shift rate, like maybe for years, but a big shift for me to think now that I'm outside of it, thinking, yeah. And, You know, we have all these different learners. And although we talk about differential education, do we really differentiate for our different learners? There's still 26 desks in a room.

23:01 - 23:39
Cheryl: The blinds are still closed. They go out to play. They separate like you were talking about playing and learning. They separate their playtime from their learning time. And as adults, don't we want to love what we do so much that you really can't tell the difference between our work and our play and life is so short. Like I don't wanna, like getting out of those 4 walls of this is what I need to do between 8 and 5. And then, I can't wait for the weekend. I can't wait for this. I'm like, when I think about

23:39 - 24:19
Cheryl: it now, like it took me even probably a few Sundays to realize, oh, I don't have that Sunday night stomach. Yeah. I'm just, and I'm still working. I'm putting in more hours now than I did my 10 hours of day of teaching and marking and all of that. But now I feel like I'm playing. This is so good. And yet, do we want our kids to be able to do that? 100%. So can we talk about the misconceptions of homeschooling and unschooling? Like What are the things you're hearing? What are the skeptics saying that you can

24:19 - 24:20
Cheryl: kind of debunk?

24:20 - 24:30
Efrat: Yeah, I think 2 things that come in mind right now with the socialization part. Yep. And applying to college part, getting into college.

24:30 - 24:32
Cheryl: Both questions I have down here, go.

24:32 - 25:18
Efrat: Right. Yes. So let's start with the socialization. Just such a hard word to say. So actually socialization, what it means, it means teaching kids the norms. That's what it means. Socializing is a different word. It's a different, it's socializing is getting together with people no matter what age, right? It doesn't have to be exactly the kids your age, But getting together in the world with people, learning to communicate, learning to solve conflict, you know, all those things. Socialization is something that they get in school because they are learning the norms of the society. But they don't

25:18 - 25:56
Efrat: really socialize because what they do, they actually sit next to each other. Okay, that's fine, but they're not allowed to talk during class. They're just supposed to sit and listen. They are socializing when they go out to break, right, and to recess. Unfortunately, recess time has been cut off over more and more and more in recent years. So they don't even have that much of a time to socialize. And also something else that is happening is that they don't let them really do whatever they want during the recess because sometimes even that is adult led. What

25:56 - 26:40
Efrat: they need to do in recess is adult led. So I don't see really socializing happening in regular school actually. Whereas in homeschooling, the kids socialize all the time because when we get together with friends, the kids just play freely and they do whatever they want. I don't know if all families are like that but in our community for certain what happens is us moms sit and talk and the kids are just playing and that can be for hours outside, many times outside. And they just learn how to socialize, you know, by socializing, by actually being with

26:40 - 27:19
Efrat: other kids. And there isn't a lot of structure to it. I feel like for people who go to the mainstream education system, many times also go to the mainstream sports and after school activities. So their kids are managed all day long. They go to school, they finish school, they go to after school, they go to the sports, they do the homework. So all their day is managed from morning to evening and they don't have even a little bit of time to just be and to actually hang out with friends, which is so crucial. So that's 1

27:19 - 27:56
Efrat: aspect that I think it's a huge misconception about the aspect of socialization. The other 1 is applying to college. That's a really interesting 1, because I feel like that is a big fear for parents. And I think that fear is based on a notion that has been ingrained in our heads about like probably 20 years ago, when actually people thought that if you go to college, it means that you're gonna have a successful life. And if you go to a better college, it means that you're gonna have a better career. That's just not the reality anymore.

27:57 - 28:41
Efrat: On the 1 hand, and on the other hand, getting into those Ivy League colleges where everyone is that, people think about sending their kids to those Ivy Leagues college since they are 3 years old. They're determining their future for them. And it's put so much academic pressure on the kids. And that leads to so much anxiety. The anxiety rates among teenagers specifically is raising like crazy these years. And I actually have an episode about this in my podcast where I talk about the academic pressure and the toll that it has on the kids. But more than

28:41 - 29:23
Efrat: that, the chances of kids to get accepted to these schools is much lower than it once was. So it's even more pressure on them. Yeah. But more than that, you know, what those schools are actually looking for nowadays are not those people who were able to jump through the hoops. They don't want those A-plus students who just did what they have been told all the years and who are basically like everybody else. Because If you're just going to the school, doing the sports, doing the after school activities, and you're trying to jump through the hoops and

29:25 - 30:02
Efrat: just check the boxes that you need to check, then you're supposedly supposed to be able to go into a great college. But actually what the colleges are telling us these days is that they're looking for unique people. They're looking for people that know who they are and what they want and that apply to the college because that is something that they have been dreaming of and this is something that will fulfill their specific dream. They're not just going to the college because this is something that everybody does. This is a dream of their parents. It's actually

30:02 - 30:25
Efrat: part of their life path. And how do they know that? They know that because they did something that is special when they were teens. And Actually, when you get when you're homeschooled over your unschooled, you have the opportunity to do that something special because you have much more time, you can do whatever you want with your time.

30:25 - 30:26
Cheryl: Yeah.

30:26 - 31:14
Efrat: And there is a very high rate of unschoolers and homeschoolers that get accepted into those colleges. And not only that they get accepted to the colleges, they actually finish the college. And There are not a lot of dropping rates because the kids went to learn something that they know that they want. It's not something that they just went to because everybody else is doing the same thing. They know what they want. They're very eager to learn it. And from what research shows us is that they actually feel that they're much more mature than their peers in

31:14 - 31:21
Efrat: the school because they're in like a different mindset than them. They're there to learn.

31:21 - 31:52
Cheryl: They want to be there to learn. They're not there to party or to get away from their parents because it's not what they're, it's not their thing. They have given the freedom all their lives. So they're not looking for freedom right now. Yes, what a great point. So is there a different, like logistically, is there a different application process? Because I know coming out of high school in grade 12 we start submitting the marks and it just goes, they're just like a piece of paper and numbers. So is it a different process to apply?

31:53 - 32:32
Efrat: It's not a different process. You can do all the exams that you need at home. And you can apply, you can fill up the applications just exactly as all the other like the regular school kids do. There are also another way that many homeschoolers do it is they do community college. So they get points from community college like when they're 15 or 16 or 17 they can start learning and then that helps them apply then to the colleges. Interesting. Yeah, so that is 1, that's another route that kids can take, but it's completely possible, It's even

32:32 - 32:51
Efrat: easier because I understand that some of the exams that the regular kids do, they don't have to do. So it's even, I think that it's even an easier process for them. I mean, it's not that it's easier, if there is less things that

32:51 - 32:59
Cheryl: they need to do. And where do they communicate that special thing they've done? Where do they communicate that on an application?

33:00 - 33:17
Efrat: So in the application, there are the, you know, the standard of the, the, grays and everything. But then there is also a big part where the, the child needs to write about himself and about their interests and about, you know, what they did and what they're hoping to get out of the college. So that's

33:17 - 33:28
Cheryl: the part where they communicate that. And do you know personally kids who have now come out of that program, a college program from homeschooling and schooling?

33:29 - 34:04
Efrat: I hear a lot of podcasts. I don't know personally, but I follow a lot of podcasts that talk about these type of things. So I heard numerous of stories of students or kids who have been, you know, accepted to those colleges. And it's also like I feel how like I don't want this whole conversation to be about it get being accepted to college because I feel like that is also something that we need to open our mind to. We need to understand that.

34:04 - 34:05
Cheryl: 100% yes.

34:05 - 34:41
Efrat: Right, it's not about getting accepted to college, it's about like we said in unschooling, if this curriculum specifically is something that is good for what you want, it's something that will help you pursue your goal, then great, go for it. The same thing, if applying to college and to this specific college is what's going to help you, you know, Get your dreams come true, make your dreams come true. Of course, go to that. But if not, that's fine also, you know, there are so many different ways that you can be successful in life. You can live

34:41 - 34:55
Efrat: a fulfilling life. You don't have to go into this specific route. There are so many other options out there that are open to anybody. And college is not for everybody. It's just not. 100%.

34:55 - 35:28
Cheryl: And I was going down this path because when I hear, like in my career, hear parents talk about, well, that closes that door and that closes that door. I bring this to the table because there are no closed doors, no matter what you do, homeschooling, unschooling, We're not closing any doors. Okay, so here's my question now. I'm a mom, I want to unschool, but I have a job. Now what? What am I doing? Yeah, it's a great question.

35:28 - 36:01
Efrat: First of all, I think most of your audience are parents of teens, right? Right. And that's actually the best, the best, the best age to unschool because it's not like you have little ones at home that you have to attend to all the time and you can't work. You can actually work and they can have their life also. You don't have to be with them all the time. You really don't. They can be at home, you can drive them to places and work from there. And if you have that flexibility, they can determine their own schedule.

36:02 - 36:34
Efrat: You don't have to be on top of them at all. Actually when when they get to their teen years it's best if you have your own career because then you also know how to pursue your interest, right? You're learning yourself how to pursue your interest, to live a fulfilling life. And the only way that we can guide our kids to live a fulfilling life is by doing it ourselves. And it really is not gonna be helpful for us to just, be on top of them all the time. We need to let them have the freedom and

36:34 - 36:37
Efrat: explore and trust them in their process.

36:38 - 36:44
Cheryl: Oh, I love that. I love that. And so is there, talk to me about now, about

36:45 - 36:45
Efrat: Is there

36:45 - 36:55
Cheryl: a community of unschooling where we can access and tap in and, you know, I have to go to work today. Can you like, is there that sort of opportunity?

36:56 - 37:46
Efrat: Yeah, yeah, there is a huge community of homeschooling, Some of them unschooling. There is also a lot of homeschoolers. In every place, in every state, in every country, if you look on Facebook, you will definitely find your homeschooling or unschooling group. There are also a lot of online resources that people can tap into. For teens specifically, there are great programs. I'm trying to think of the name of it. 1 program is called Liberated Learners. It's a program for teens and basically they have a space where they can gather and there are facilitators there. So adults that

37:46 - 38:19
Efrat: are just there in the space and they just spend their day the way that they want to, you know, they pursue their own projects, they cooperate with each other, they learn whatever they want, but they just have the space that they can come to and be there during the day. So that's 1 great resource to look at. And there are others. I can send you a few links after the show and so you can attach to this episode as well. That's great. And that answered my question. That's that's amazing.

38:21 - 38:36
Cheryl: Okay, so where can we find you? How can I support you? I love this message. I love that. There are other opportunities. And I think you really just answered the questions instead of like me saying,

38:36 - 38:36
Efrat: oh, well, I work full time.

38:36 - 39:12
Cheryl: I can't, I don't know math, I can't. I, you know, and I love the fact that we can teach our kids just by watching us do what we wanna do and do what we love and see what we're like when we're doing what we love as opposed to when we get home from work and we're grumpy and miserable complaining about our day. What a shift like, oh geez, mom's doing that. Maybe I can do that. Like, let's do that instead of waiting till you're 50 and then changing careers because you've been locked in this conformed situation

39:13 - 39:18
Cheryl: where you thought you had to go. This just opens the flood gates. And I love that, Afra. Thank you for sharing that

39:18 - 39:55
Efrat: with us. You're welcome. Yeah, it's so liberating and it just, it's so freeing. And it's, you know, when you follow your own dreams and live a life of fulfillment, you're gonna be a better mom. You're gonna be a better human. You're gonna want to connect with them more because you're just, you know, you're happy with what you're doing. So yeah, that's, I feel like that's what we need to, we need to focus on ourselves And they will focus on themselves. Every person has a drive to fulfill their own purpose. And we need to trust that.

39:56 - 40:13
Cheryl: And honor that. Because that's exactly where you know, I talk about on pretty well every episode I do. We need to do our work. So they see what that looks like. And they're always watching us. They're not always listening to us, but they are always watching us.

40:13 - 40:14
Efrat: Yeah, they are.

40:14 - 40:19
Cheryl: Yeah. So where can we find you? How can we work with you? What are all the good things?

40:19 - 40:41
Efrat: Yeah, so you can follow my podcast, which is called alternative parenting. I also have a Facebook group under the same name. And I have an Instagram account where I post about the podcast episodes. It's called Alternative Parenting Coach. Yeah. And I'll send you all the links also for that. Excellent.

40:41 - 40:47
Cheryl: Excellent. Thank you for the work you're doing. Thank you for sharing it with us, Afrat. This was wonderful. Thank you

40:47 - 40:48
Efrat: for listening.

40:48 - 41:15
Cheryl: Yeah, our pleasure. Thank you for checking out Teen Minds Redefined, another episode, and so grateful you're listening. See you later. Teen Minds Redefined with Cheryl Pankhurst. New episodes out every Wednesday. Thanks for stopping by. Thanks for watching!