#38 "Teen Parenting in the Midst of Divorce & Strategies for Successful Co-Parenting" with Rachel King

00:15 - 00:59
Cheryl-Host: Welcome to another episode of Teen Minds Redefined, where we try to redefine and reimagine the relationships we have with our teenagers by supporting parents. And I'm going to Throw a statistic here, 48%. Can you guess what that is? That's the divorce rate. That's the divorce rate across Canada and US at the moment, which means out of everybody listening, there's a whole bunch of you who are either going through this, going to go through this, know somebody who's going through this. And this is some really, really important and helpful information when you are going through divorce, separation,

00:59 - 01:19
Cheryl-Host: uncoupling, and you have kids. So today we have Rachel King in the house. She is a divorce lawyer, divorce whisperer, and she has got the legal know-how and the mom wisdom to help you guide through the storm. Welcome, Rachel. I'm so glad to have you here.

01:20 - 01:22
Rachel-Guest: Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

01:23 - 01:36
Cheryl-Host: So Rachel, tell us first of all, how you got to where you are. I know you you are a lawyer, but you also have a podcast, a really interesting podcast. But tell us how you got to where you are right now. Like what's the story?

01:37 - 02:13
Rachel-Guest: So interestingly, I'm not only a family law attorney, but I'm also the child of divorce. And I don't know if those 2 things ended up working together. I will definitely say that what I experienced, and I didn't have, it wasn't a horrible divorce situation, but even some of the things that I experienced through my parents' divorce and through the visitation issues really pairs well with what I know in family law and I try and kind of bring the 2 together and help my clients move forward in a way that's going to work. I think having that

02:13 - 02:52
Rachel-Guest: personal experience, Maybe it doesn't give me any more, you know, street cred, but at least I think I am sharing the information in a way that maybe can help parents that are going through it really understand. But I was a child of divorce. My dad lived in Nevada. My mom lived in California. I was primarily with my mom. My dad is an attorney. And so I had the very traditional visitation schedule where I'd go to My dad's for holidays and summers. I really loved the time that I had with him, but he had to work. Attorneys,

02:52 - 03:29
Rachel-Guest: we work a lot. So in the evenings and on the weekends, he would talk to me about his cases. He would pretend, it was probably pretend that I had any say in how he was going to strategize his case. And we used that as an opportunity to share time when I was with him. I knew I wanted to be an attorney probably since I was a teenager. It didn't take the most direct route to get there, but ultimately I became an attorney in California and I opened my law firm in 2014. My very first case was

03:29 - 04:04
Rachel-Guest: a divorce case. I didn't know that I was going to end up in family law necessarily, but I think kind of how I practice and my philosophy lends itself very well to family law. And so I keep getting cases and I think my clients are really happy. So that's where I am today. Now I do very high litigation cases or cases where I consider them to be married to the divorce and they can't get out of them. I handle a lot of those cases because again, how I practice seems to put an end to some of

04:04 - 04:07
Rachel-Guest: these never ending emotional situations.

04:08 - 04:52
Cheryl-Host: I have 1 in my brain right now that I'm thinking about how they said that and it's just been horrible. So anyway, and they have kids and so this is what it sixes me. I am I have been divorced twice so, you know my first divorce of my kids were younger teenagers and You know just such a such an impact like to the point where I remember this was like 2005. And I still remember where I was in the words I said and the reactions of my kids in that conversation. That's the impact. Yeah. So, so

04:52 - 05:34
Cheryl-Host: this is this is huge. And I mean, there's, you know, there's practicing law, and then there's practicing law with this whole other layer, I can't even imagine. So let's start with, I want to start with you've had a conversation, okay, we've decided we're separating, we're uncoupling, whatever term you want to use. Can you tell me for parents what I would say the first 5 steps they're going to take after that? Because I feel like when I picture myself in that moment, even though the plan in my head was done, After the actual words were out, I

05:34 - 05:39
Cheryl-Host: was then frozen. I didn't know. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to do.

05:41 - 06:14
Rachel-Guest: And then you add the fact that you've taken the step, but you're going to go on a roller coaster of whether it was a good idea, whether you should keep going, whether you're making a huge mistake, whether it was really as bad as you thought and all of the things, right? And so I actually, when I look at my clients' cases, I know the law, at least for the area that I'm in. In California, the judges have a huge amount of discretion when it comes to how families are going to play out. Not as much on

06:14 - 06:52
Rachel-Guest: the division of assets, but quite a bit of discretion with what custody and visitation looks like. So as an attorney, I want to get the facts and I want to see what my client's goals are and see how we can structure our case strategy. The most important thing I do though, I think as an attorney is tell my clients the realities of the situation. The realities of the situation are you are going from 1 amount of money to support 1 household to the same amount of money going to support 2 households. And how that divides up

06:53 - 07:32
Rachel-Guest: really depends on so many things. It could be with spousal support or child support, nothing. But you have to understand that it's not the same because it can't be, right? And at the same time, life isn't going to be the same. So when I have clients that walk in and I'm very interested in their goals, but I'm also interested in sharing whether their goals can be a true reality or whether they're not. For example, 1 of the biggest things I get pushed back on is that stay at home parents should be the primary custodian in the

07:32 - 08:06
Rachel-Guest: divorce. And that's not the case. And in many courts, that's not the case. There are some that say yes, but I tell my clients, why is that the case? It worked while you were married, but it doesn't work anymore because you're not married. So just because it worked during the marriage doesn't mean it's going to work after. So that's what I do as an attorney. But when I tell my clients is you got to get into therapy, individual therapy to handle that roller coaster. Do you have to get into therapy to know whether you like the

08:06 - 08:53
Rachel-Guest: legal advice that you're getting and how to handle making decisions in your divorce? And therapy also will help clients learn the tools so that all of the feelings that they have toward their ex are not projected onto their children. That somebody is, could be the worst, I dare say, abusive spouse and still be a really stand up parent. And it's hard when you're making that transition to understand that your feelings for your spouse are not the same as you're feeling the children's feelings for their other parent. And the faster you can reconcile that the easier your

08:53 - 08:55
Rachel-Guest: divorce process is going to be.

08:55 - 09:37
Cheryl-Host: Yeah. Well, 1 thing I learned very, very quickly, and I think I actually got this before we divorced, separated, is that they are 50% dad in my case. So if I ever called that an asshole, They're 50% asshole. This is what was going through my head all the time and you know, as emotional and angry at all the emotions you go through when it's when it's time and you know, it's right. It just stuck in my head all the time. And I think we did a really good job of not doing that. And it isn't, and

09:37 - 10:04
Cheryl-Host: I'll tell you, you know, they were like 14 and 12, I think, and it didn't take until they were close to 20 to say, okay, we get it. Or we appreciate that you were like that. Or, you know, like, they do get it. And as long as you are, you know, you have that period of time where you're thinking, they don't understand and they'll, they'll never understand because they didn't choose this. It wasn't their choice.

10:05 - 10:44
Rachel-Guest: And they didn't have a marital relationship. They have a parent-child relationship. So you can't expect your children to understand. I take it a step farther and I say, and maybe mine's not nearly as nice. You say it in a much more palatable way. I tell people regularly, almost daily, other parents, they get a right to screw up their own kids almost as much as they want within the very narrow confines of the law as to what is like negligent or child abuse. But you know, it isn't very much to stay out of that negligence child abuse

10:45 - 11:10
Rachel-Guest: situation. So just like you get to parent how you want, they get to also and the fact that they put their kids in front of or your kids in front of television or gaming and feed them garbage food and take them to the bar and all of these things, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are a bad parent. Maybe you're the better 1, but they get to screw them up too.

11:11 - 11:48
Cheryl-Host: Yeah. And along with your decision to leave is your decision to allow them to do this and not be able to, you know, if you're in the same house, yes, you can say, no, we're not doing that today. But yes, once that decision is made, and I wonder, as just as you're talking, If people get to hear this because they're kind of on the fence and maybe, you know, that this isn't worth working on, you know, when you start having these conversations, does that then put a different light on, is there something else we could do

11:48 - 11:49
Cheryl-Host: before we make this decision?

11:51 - 12:21
Rachel-Guest: I, yeah, and I get, it doesn't happen very often, but every now and then I get somebody that calls and says they want to file for divorce in hopes that their spouse will change. And I always say, so filing for divorce is the biggest breach of trust that you have in a marriage. It is not to try and get your spouse to change. I've known 1 person in my entire life that got as an attorney I should say that got divorced and remarried and I didn't learn about them through family law. I learned about them after

12:21 - 12:56
Rachel-Guest: 1 of them passed away. So that's not the norm. Even if it's in the movies, you get divorced and you file for divorce when you no matter what are done. If you went to your spouse and said I want a divorce because And you listed all of the reasons and they said and meant I will never do any of that again If you would say okay and not want to get divorced you're not ready for divorce You would say well, I appreciate that. I'm just it's like a day late and a dollar short, then you're ready

12:56 - 13:15
Rachel-Guest: for divorce because it's hard and I'm married and I've been married for 15 over 15 years and marriage is really hard. I mean, anybody that says that they have an easy marriage, I think is lying to themselves or isn't in a real marriage.

13:15 - 13:16
Cheryl-Host: Yes.

13:16 - 13:46
Rachel-Guest: But you know what? In fact, I had 1 of my best friends tell me yesterday, divorce is hard too. So you can pick whichever 1 you want to do, but neither 1 is going to be easy. You can fight it out and figure out your marriage. Of course it takes 2 people to do that. Or you can file for divorce and you can fight it out and figure out how to be divorced. Also, either way, it's a lot of work. And I think if people really understood that you shouldn't stay together for the kids that I

13:46 - 14:03
Rachel-Guest: don't believe in that. But I think you should stay, you should evaluate the fact that once you've been married, especially if you have children, it's not easy on either side of the fence. Either 1 is going to be hard. So what is going to be the best for you in the long run.

14:03 - 14:38
Cheryl-Host: Yeah, yeah. And I think too, you know, you don't, you don't hear about things, the stories, like I know when I was considering it and ready to go, it was, I didn't think about things like, oh, they, they act like this at dad's house, but they don't act like this at my house. Or the feeling of, oh, there's someone else in the life over there. There's all these little things that I literally, I think my parents were married for 60 years. All my friends were together still in their marriage. So I really did not have that,

14:38 - 15:02
Cheryl-Host: you know, kind of the nuances that come with divorce and kids. I didn't have that. So I was like, Oh, this is why I'm doing these things. Yeah. You know, people need to know and I'm not saying don't and I'm not saying do. I'm saying is there's a lot of like underlying things that are going to slam you later that you might want to know about now. Just so you're even aware and prepared.

15:03 - 15:37
Rachel-Guest: Yeah, financial is 1. Again, we go from 1 financial situation to another. I'm a huge advocate of financial independence. Somebody walks into my office and says they want to file for divorce. 1 of the first things I tell them is great, what are you doing to earn an income and improve that income? Because it doesn't matter if you've been a stay at home mom for 20 years, or you have a career, your life is about to change. So we need to get you on a financial trajectory that's on the up instead of the down.

15:37 - 15:38
Cheryl-Host: Yeah.

15:38 - 16:19
Rachel-Guest: And then parenting, you have to now co-parent with somebody who arguably you don't like anymore, but that has to happen. And what that looks like is challenging. I don't think you can ever foresee it, right? Divorce is like a grief process. You have to grieve somebody that you don't really like anymore, And that's really awkward for us. And that's why I think if you can get into therapy and you can understand what is happening to you and that it's okay and it's totally normal, But get some tools in place so that when dating happens and there's

16:19 - 16:33
Rachel-Guest: a new significant other, it's not mom, nobody's taking over mom's role, but that you can support your children when they want to go to dad's house. It doesn't need to be a big to do it should be great. I'm so glad that you love your dad.

16:34 - 16:35
Cheryl-Host: Yes.

16:35 - 17:05
Rachel-Guest: 1 of the things I get a lot is people saying, oh, and it doesn't matter if it's mom or dad, but oh, when other parent has our kids, they're at work and they leave them with their mom. So grandma ends up watching the kids. I don't like that. They should be with me. And my response is always, I mean, is, is grandma safe and good and kind? Why don't you want somebody else to love your children? The more people that can love your children, the better. So sure, it could be more time with you, but what's

17:05 - 17:21
Rachel-Guest: really wrong with dad on his time allowing other people to love on your kids? Again, hard concept when you don't like somebody. So Learning how to separate your feelings about your ex from everything else is really key.

17:21 - 18:01
Cheryl-Host: Yeah, and really becoming self-aware as in, is this just triggering for me? Yeah. Or is this actually negative for my kids? No, it's just bugging me, Period. And even the grief process, I love it, you know, the idea of therapy and what I started to really realize is that when you are contemplating separation and then getting to the divorce process, If you if it's only your idea, and only 1 sided, you've gone through 5 of the 6 grieving processes. Whereas you're soon to be x has gone through none.

18:02 - 18:05
Rachel-Guest: Right And may not even know that there was an issue.

18:05 - 18:23
Cheryl-Host: Yes. So you have to, you know, I think be very aware of that and give them time to catch up because, you know, you can't use their reaction as ammunition against them. You had all this time. Do You know what I mean?

18:23 - 18:58
Rachel-Guest: But yeah, I totally get it. And 1 of the reasons that I think people have a hard time is because if you look at the reasons for divorce, right, There's, there's big issues like finance is a big cause of divorce. Parenting is a big cause of divorce. Sex is a big cause of divorce, but those are just issues. Most of it, if you look at the research says that it's communication, right? Communication is the biggest cause of divorce. And so now you very likely have a breakdown in communication. And so you may not react and communicate

18:58 - 19:29
Rachel-Guest: well, that probably rears its ugly head even more when you broach the divorce topic. I remember 1 time we were in marriage counseling and they said, just sit down, listen to your spouse's point of view and don't respond and come back later. And my goodness, that is the hardest thing to do when you're in love and you're in a happy marriage, let alone doing it when you're like, I'm out of here, I want this to be done, I don't wanna be with you anymore and having to really step away and be like, I need to let

19:29 - 19:31
Rachel-Guest: them do their thing and come back to this at a different time.

19:32 - 19:46
Cheryl-Host: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's get to the kids again. So what are some common misconceptions about that whole legal process of divorce? Like, do people come to you and you're like, yep, no, that's not how it works.

19:46 - 20:24
Rachel-Guest: Yeah. So again, the primary parent stay at home parent thing is a big issue. It's getting less and less maybe common with the cost of living getting higher and higher and more and more families needing to have dual incomes, but it still comes around. The other 1 with kids is that somebody always thinks that they're the better parent. Usually both people think they're the better parent. And I have to tell clients like you're not the better parent necessarily, right? You may fit what I think is a better parent, but that doesn't mean that the other parent

20:24 - 21:02
Rachel-Guest: is bad enough to not have time. And then I think this idea that 1, that the children shouldn't have a relationship with both kids, with both parents is really hard. It's a hard concept because it's a bit counterintuitive. You think, well, if it's an abusive ex, then that's not safe. Or if they are, they abandoned our kids right after the divorce, they shouldn't, they don't get the luxury of having a relationship or even I do all of the mental labor, I handle everything for our kids, they just get to be Disneyland dad, right. And so we

21:02 - 21:41
Rachel-Guest: bring those feelings in. And what the law says, pairs very well with what the psychologists are saying. And so they're trying to get on the same page is that no matter what these kids have a mother and a father or at least 2 parental roles, whatever that looks like in your family. And if dad is a deadbeat in and out of prison drug addict, They still have dad that is a deadbeat drug addict in and out of prison, and they need to understand how that affects their life and how having that kind of father figure is

21:41 - 22:23
Rachel-Guest: going to impact the rest of their life. If mom is bipolar schizophrenic, they need to know that they have a bipolar schizophrenic mother and that their mother role is that and how are they going to handle that and affect it. And just simply removing bipolar schizophrenic mom or drug addict prison dad doesn't solve the child's problem. The child still has a parent that sucks, right? Potentially. And they need to be able to navigate that, have some kind of relationship, be allowed a supervised phone call or some kind of visit so that they can figure out how

22:23 - 22:54
Rachel-Guest: that relationship fits into the rest of their life. And I think many people have the first instinct is to go into protect. We all want to protect our kids. We all want to, right? We want to hug and be the protector and keep them safe. But removing them from that situation, specifically when it's mom or dad or a parental role, doesn't solve that problem for the child. Sometimes it makes it even worse when they turn 18 or 19 or trying to really hone in on their sense of self.

22:54 - 23:34
Cheryl-Host: Yeah, because I think, you know, kids are so quick to blame themselves for whatever. I wonder, so when you're having these conversations with your kids, and I know I don't want to cross the line with child psychologists, but I know you're in it. Is it the advice then to be just very matter of fact about who that other parent is, so if you have a parent you're divorcing because they are an addict or infidelity or whatever. And your kid's completely confused because they have no idea. Do you have that point blank conversation without the emotion if

23:34 - 23:41
Cheryl-Host: you can say this happened and this is what we're doing? Or is it none of their concern at all?

23:43 - 24:19
Rachel-Guest: I think the role of every parent in a divorce is to be the best parent that they can possibly be in the situation. And both as an attorney with my experience in court and then as a child of divorce, the only thing I think that is successful long term is to be almost a cheerleader for the other parent. Now if you have an addict or something that you obviously aren't going to be like yes go out and drive our children around at all hours of the night while you're high. No, we're not talking about that.

24:19 - 24:19
Cheryl-Host: Yeah.

24:19 - 24:53
Rachel-Guest: Now you don't need to, you don't need to be the 1 to teach your children all of that. It's okay to say, Hey, it's mom's birthday or Hey, did you want to send dad a Christmas card? It's okay to just do that because your children are going to grow up and they're going to figure it out and you don't need to, it is not your job to teach your children what a horrible other parent they have. It is the other parent's job to create that kind of relationship. So no, not only do courts not like it,

24:53 - 25:31
Rachel-Guest: they in fact include orders that say don't speak negatively about the other children, don't talk about the case at all. I don't think it's practical. To the extent that you need to have some of those discussions, for example, I've had cases where there's dueling restraining orders and the children were really used as pawns and thought when there was supervised visitation that it was 1 of the parents had bailed, right? And so in order to rebuild that relationship, that parent needed to be able to say, I didn't abandon you, I wasn't allowed to see you, right? That

25:31 - 26:05
Rachel-Guest: conversation I think needs to happen in front of a therapist. I think you really want to have the guidance of a professional, so your child can voice their concerns, and so that you can present the information really all about you. It's not about the other parent, It's about you being there for your kids and it is not your job to convince your children what a good or bad other parent they have. It is your job to keep them safe but keeping them safe doesn't require you to teach them what kind of person the other parent is.

26:05 - 26:19
Cheryl-Host: Yeah, that's good. And I feel like what's coming to me right now is whatever you tell your kids, they're not going to get on board. They're not going to say, Oh, okay. Okay. Well, yeah, I think you should divorce them. They're not going to do that.

26:19 - 26:21
Rachel-Guest: No, they're not going

26:21 - 26:22
Cheryl-Host: to get on board.

26:22 - 26:57
Rachel-Guest: They love this person. Kids, depending on their age, but I would say even teenagers, right. And I have an adult child. So I've been, I've been through the teen years and I'm got more in there now. And even at their worst, right, and teenagers are difficult, they still love their other parents. So it doesn't, again, when you say anything negative about this other parent, not only are you, like you said, insulting them because they're 50% that other person, you've crushed them because they love you so much and they love the bad parents so much because we

26:57 - 27:30
Rachel-Guest: just do. We love our parents and then you grow up and maybe you learn to put boundaries in and your love changes a little bit but as a child you haven't yet and it's it's devastating your relationship with your children when they hear anything negative about this person they can't help but love so I tell my clients you don't want to screw up your relationship with a kid. So even if you're doing it totally for selfish reasons, don't ever speak negatively about the other parent because it's going to screw up your relationship and it's not going

27:30 - 27:33
Rachel-Guest: to screw up their relationship. That's not what's going to do it.

27:33 - 28:10
Cheryl-Host: Yeah, 100%. I agree with that. And they and I feel like the more I hear these stories, it has such a reverse impact because then they create a stalled loyalty to the 1 you're insulting or you're standing. Oh yeah. 100. Yeah. Yeah. I can totally understand that. So tell me what role. So you've had the conversation, You've connected with a lawyer. Where does mediation come in first, last? Do you recommend it? You don't recommend it? Like, is mediation even a viable option?

28:12 - 28:29
Rachel-Guest: So mediation from an asset standpoint, I think, can be really helpful, but it requires both people to really want to mediate. If 1 party is like, the only way I'm settling is if I get everything, well, that's not going to work. And so you don't need to waste time or money

28:29 - 28:30
Cheryl-Host: on it.

28:30 - 29:02
Rachel-Guest: Mediation when it comes to kids, totally different story. In fact, in California and most courts, I think in the US, require some kind of mandatory court mediation before the court will even make orders on custody and visitation. So in California, we file a request for the court to make custody and visitation orders and they automatically send the parents to a mediation paid for by the court. No attorneys are allowed. So even if you have an attorney, your attorney is not going to be present with you and you work with a mediator to try and come up

29:02 - 29:23
Rachel-Guest: with something that's going to work. And I don't know, 50% maybe of the people get it together and settle. But what I tell my clients, because I prep them for this, since it's a court requirement, I say, if you can reach an agreement that you're comfortable with, you should reach that agreement.

29:23 - 29:24
Cheryl-Host: It's not

29:24 - 29:55
Rachel-Guest: going to offend me. It's not going to screw your case. When it comes to your children, if you can reach an agreement that you are comfortable with, that's the agreement you should reach. On the other hand, if you aren't happy with the agreement and, and it's not for emotional reasons, like, Oh, I just don't want to share my kids 50% of the time, you know, but you really can't reach an agreement. Don't reach it hands down. And I would be willing to say this is 100% of the time, an agreement that you can reach, even if

29:55 - 30:27
Rachel-Guest: it's not ideal with the other parent, is going to be better than an agreement that a judge makes. Because even if the judge rules in your favor, the judge has ruled completely against the other parent and it's going to cause hostility and it's going to cause some kind of conflict when it comes to co-parenting. Attorneys and judges, You know, we try our best. I try my best to advocate for my clients. I think judges for the most part try and do the best that they can, but we're given this much information and we never have to

30:27 - 31:02
Rachel-Guest: live with the order again. I had a client who had been married for 25 years and an incredibly toxic relationship. The children were a disaster. I mean, restraining orders between parents and children. I mean it was just a horrific situation. And I had to tell my client, you know, you made a mess of this over 25 years. So the court isn't going to get it right at the first hearing because you are, you took you 25 years to create this mess. And even in that situation, if you can reach an agreement, it's going to be better

31:02 - 31:23
Rachel-Guest: than what the court does, because somebody is going to be ticked off, because the court has 10 minutes worth of information for a 25 year creation. So for custody and visitation, if you can reach the agreement, I think it is hands down the best thing that you can do, even if it's not your ideal agreement. It's not everything you wanted, but it's something that you can work with.

31:23 - 31:46
Cheryl-Host: That's great advice. That's great advice. So when we're talking about it, tell me about children's lawyers, like when does when does a kid's lawyer come in? When does that a requirement? Is it something that parents need to hire? Does the court hire it? That we never actually got to court. So that kind of go, no. Thank God, Yeah, yeah.

31:48 - 32:22
Rachel-Guest: So this is a super specific jurisdictional question, every even just state to state, I mean, sorry, even just county to county within California changes. State to state it changes, I imagine country to country, it's hugely different. But the role, typically the role of the child's attorney is to be that child's voice. Sometimes the court will listen to the child. In California, we have a statutory age of 14. Many other places have a statutory age at which point the child has a say and can speak and say what they want. We're seeing a trend to reduce that

32:22 - 33:03
Rachel-Guest: age, probably because we are coming into a time where everything a child wants should happen. So the courts are even considering coming down on that based on the child's ability to make good decisions, right? But the child's attorney is the voice of the child. I don't see in a family law case, attorneys for children very often, I do see them, they're required in guardianships, they're required in some different cases like that. But in a family law case, the court will appoint 1 if maybe if every there's something really bad that has happened or 1 of the

33:03 - 33:36
Rachel-Guest: parents, you know, is adamant that the the five-year-old's voice needs to be heard, but the court's kind of leery of the five-year-old, or they want a neutral and independent voice for the child, they'll do that. In most cases, the parents split the cost or the parent is requesting that the court appoint somebody picks up the tab for that. I have not seen them where they are paid for by the state and a family law. Can you imagine if the state had to come in and pay for an attorney for every child in a divorce, we'd be

33:36 - 33:43
Rachel-Guest: more broke than we are now. Oh my gosh. Maxes are already too high. We don't need to give it reason for a higher

33:43 - 34:13
Cheryl-Host: 1. I hear you. So if we're, so most of my audience are parents of teenagers. Yeah. So can you differentiate between an approach, advice between whether your kids are up to 12 or your kids are 13 and more like what are the discrepancies there like what do they you know what I mean like it's obviously a different conversation but what do parents need to know about an age difference?

34:15 - 34:54
Rachel-Guest: Well when it comes to age differences of kids, 1 of the things I get brought up is can they share rooms and things like that? I don't know. I've heard that there are some areas that say that siblings can't share rooms. I've not seen that. We don't have that in California. We're not going to start getting involved in the sleeping situation unless there's something inappropriate about it. As far as kids having a say, I think even though our teenagers are very independent and want to be treated like an adult and to a certain extent we want

34:54 - 35:26
Rachel-Guest: to give them those freedoms, it's still important to know that they're the child in this divorce and that their parents are splitting and to not forget that even though they try and act like an adult and they might think they want to be involved, they really don't. They really don't want to be involved in their parents divorce. They want to still be the child. In fact, most teenagers kind of regret, not I don't want to say regress from like a standpoint, but they just want to be hugged by their mom and dad, like a little 5

35:26 - 36:03
Rachel-Guest: year old during a divorce, but they can't because they're full grown. And that would be embarrassing. So I think just remembering that you still need to be aware, maybe even more aware of what you say and how you say it in front of your teenager and what other people say around your teenager. Again, it's very easy just in the regular course of the day to maybe speak about things that are not super important in front of your kid. But your 16, 17, 18, even 19-year-old who's an adult does not want to be in the middle of

36:03 - 36:37
Rachel-Guest: a divorce. They don't know how when they left both parents. So being aware of that. The other thing is, this is maybe more for people that are getting along. I don't think it's your job as a parent, and I don't think that the court recognizes it either for you to say, well, our kid is in high school football, and so your visitations don't work on the weekends anymore because they have spring training. That's not your job. If they're doing an extracurricular activity that really is important as they become teenagers and grow up and that they're really

36:37 - 37:06
Rachel-Guest: passionate about, you should encourage that activity, right, to the extent that you can afford it. But again, it's a conversation between other parent and the child, not you. Hey, you wanna do, you know, spring training is coming up and it's gonna require every single weekend for football. Like I'll be sure that when I have you, I'll make sure you get there. Like, let me know what you need. I think you need to go to dad and just make sure that he's on board with that or whatever. That's a conversation between you and dad. Ah, dad said

37:06 - 37:25
Rachel-Guest: I can't do it or he has to work or he has plans and blah. Okay, you know what? That's really between you and your dad. It is not your job to defend dad or to fight your child's battle. Again, let that play out. I think that's a really hard 1. That's 1 I see quite a bit with teenagers and their extracurricular activities.

37:26 - 37:58
Cheryl-Host: Yeah, and when you think about it, if you were together, if you were together, you would be like, do it. Yes, let's go. Let's go. And if it screws up your schedule, it comes back to you chose to divorce. They didn't so that I feel like, yes, you have to move on. Yes, you have to go on with your life. But I still think that when you're having these conversations, that needs to be forefront like, okay, I didn't choose this for them. This was not their option. And ask them questions to you, I think I can't

37:58 - 38:12
Cheryl-Host: even imagine asking even my older teenagers to make a decision based on something that had to do with the divorce. I feel like it would be so much pressure for them to try.

38:12 - 38:44
Rachel-Guest: And people do it all the time. Do you want to go to dad's house? Why does the child have to get that? And I get people saying, well, cause kids voices need to be heard. This is not a kid's voices being heard. Of course you should listen to what your child has to say, hear it. And then you, as the adult, you, as the parent should be making a decision on whether you are going to entertain what they've said or whether you're going to say, sorry, that's not going to do it. But also, let's use this

38:44 - 39:05
Rachel-Guest: football scenario again. Let's say dad really says no. He's going to put up much more of a stink. If you as the ex say no, this is our child's football. It's really important. He needs it for college, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then if the child that he loves says that I really want to do this,

39:05 - 39:05
Cheryl-Host: like I know I really want to

39:05 - 39:31
Rachel-Guest: do this. Like I know I really want to do this. This means a lot. A good parent is going to be like, oh, okay, same with sleepovers. I really want to sleep over at my friend's house. They're having a birthday party. Oh, but I only get you 2 weekends a month and that's gonna be a Saturday, so I'm gonna miss you. True, but have your child have that conversation because it's gonna go over better. And then while we want parents to put their kids first and we hope that they say, yes, you should encourage these kinds

39:31 - 39:51
Rachel-Guest: of activities, except that it's okay, just like if you were together to say, no, you're not going to that birthday party because I already have plans. We do it when we're married all the time, say, you can't do that because we already have that. So let the other parent have their own boundaries as well. They're allowed to just like you are.

39:51 - 40:28
Cheryl-Host: Yeah. Yeah. Good. Okay. Can you just share some insights on protecting your assets and the financial piece, like, what questions am I asking to make sure I'm getting a good lawyer? Like even just, and I don't, you know, I don't need a whole, I don't need to write an essay, but just like, I'm, I'm completely blind. I don't know where to turn. I don't know what to ask. And now I paid $25, 000 to this guy who wrote 1 letter. So like, and that's, I know that's not typical lawyer. I'm not saying that at all. You're

40:28 - 40:30
Cheryl-Host: obviously lawyers are expensive.

40:30 - 41:01
Rachel-Guest: So we don't need to, we don't need to hide behind that. We can all agree that lawyers are expensive. In fact, 1 of my podcasts is probably going to be breaking down why lawyers are expensive. But I think if you're if you're the 1 that's contemplating divorce, The best thing you can do from a financial standpoint is get copies of all of your records. Even if you're not the 1 that does the bills or manages the finances, write down the banks that you start seeing statements come in. See if you can get copies of statements. See

41:01 - 41:39
Rachel-Guest: if you can take a picture of the cash that's in the safe, just start putting your records together because it's really hard, especially once you're going through a divorce or if you move out to go and start collecting that and you're relying then on your ex to supply this missing information, which is digital banking and there is no magic. Portal that attorneys can go to to find out all of the assets that you guys had. I get asked that in every single divorce, probably in every case, like just go and just you tell me where the

41:39 - 41:49
Rachel-Guest: bank is. Like, I have no idea. We don't, there's no magic portal that can say what everybody owns. Or if it does, it's owned by China or something. I don't know. We don't have it.

41:49 - 41:50
Cheryl-Host: We can't get to it.

41:50 - 41:59
Rachel-Guest: So you put your own records. And if you can do that before you file or before you take the next step, that's really helpful. If you are

41:59 - 41:59
Cheryl-Host: the 1

41:59 - 42:16
Rachel-Guest: that was told that a divorce is happening and you didn't have that time to prepare, I would say do the same thing to the extent you can get as many copies of documents, even if it's a photograph, you know, if you're in a really controlling relationship and you have to sneak into it, just snap pictures so that you have them.

42:16 - 42:17
Cheryl-Host: Yeah.

42:17 - 42:51
Rachel-Guest: After, when you're looking to hire an attorney, there's a lot of really great attorneys and there's a lot of really awful attorneys. I would still say there's more good attorneys than bad attorneys. But if you have the best attorney in the world and you don't trust them, it doesn't matter that you have the best attorney because you're not going to believe anything that they're telling you. So when you are meeting with an attorney, if you don't trust what they're telling you, then you need to move on to the next 1. If you have an attorney and

42:51 - 43:18
Rachel-Guest: you all of a sudden don't trust anything they're saying, it's time to find a new attorney. Even if you're like, Oh, but I'm in a hundred grand. And okay. But if they tell you that you need to take this settlement offer or something, you're going to be like, I don't like you. I don't believe you. So I'm not going to do it. And you're going to cause yourself more stress. So if the trust is gone, you've got to go. 1 thing that I really like to tell people or recommend is your attorney should be telling you

43:18 - 43:49
Rachel-Guest: the bad stuff. If your attorney is nodding their head and saying, Oh yeah, we can get that. Oh yeah, we can get that. You're, they're just racking up the bills and they're not being honest. You can't win everything, right? Nobody does. So more important that you're what your strengths are or your attorney being willing to tell you the bad part. Hey, I know you want sole custody. You're not going to get it. Dad's a good dude, right? He likes his kids. He's never done anything wrong. He works a lot, but you know, it is what it

43:49 - 44:01
Rachel-Guest: is. You need an attorney that's willing to tell you the bad parts because that will help you figure out how to make the decisions in your divorce case. And if you have an attorney that won't do that, It's time to move on.

44:01 - 44:34
Cheryl-Host: Oh, that's so good. It makes so much sense. So I know you said therapy. Are there any other recommendations for parents to kind of navigate this whole emotional thing and still be mom, dad, have this other, like it feels like a whole other life. Like there's all the divorce shit and then there's you and I, and we got to get through this. Is there other recommendations? You need

44:34 - 45:04
Rachel-Guest: to have 3 things when you're getting through a divorce. You need to have a therapist. You need to have an emotional support system that is not your therapist and not your attorney. They cost too much. We cost too much to bitch to you need to have it. So go find some new friends. It's not going to be your ex. That's not a healthy support system when you're going through divorce. So go find some new friends. If you don't have friends, go join a mom's group or a women's group and fake it, fake it till you make

45:04 - 45:34
Rachel-Guest: it, you will meet somebody. And then lastly, whether or not you have an attorney, I think you need to meet with an attorney, you need to know what your actual legal rights are, because everybody's going to come out of the woodworks and be doing this and telling you what you should and shouldn't agree to and what they got and why you're getting a bad deal. And if they don't, it doesn't matter. They're not, they're not lawyers and they are basing it through their own lens. So go and find out what is realistic and what your legal

45:34 - 45:39
Rachel-Guest: rights are. If you decide to move forward with an attorney, great. But if not, at least you'll have that basis.

45:40 - 45:40
Cheryl-Host: And

45:40 - 46:00
Rachel-Guest: then the 1 thing you should never do is you shouldn't start dating too soon. Oh my gosh. It is, I get it. We want to rebound. It's so fun. You get all of the honeymoon phase and you feel loved when maybe you haven't for, it is a mess in a divorce. So really, really try not to date.

46:01 - 46:07
Cheryl-Host: Guilty and You are 100% correct. 100% correct.

46:07 - 46:27
Rachel-Guest: You're going to break. And if you found a really great guy or a really great new partner, you are going to break that person's heart. Cause you're a mess. You're going through a divorce. You should, you're going to either screw your own self up, or you're going to screw up this poor innocent bystander that doesn't realize how broken you are. Don't date.

46:28 - 46:44
Cheryl-Host: So good. So good. Oh my, and yeah, I'm 100% guilty, guilty and gross. When I think about it, oh my God, they say you should never regret because you know, there's always a lesson. No, huge regret. Let me say,

46:45 - 47:01
Rachel-Guest: you know, I think saying it is like 1 of those wishful thinking because truly when you're going through divorce, you need some of the dopamine release of like having somebody make you feel loved and pretty and all of the things. But, you know, just know you're going to break their heart or you're going to screw up your divorce.

47:02 - 47:12
Cheryl-Host: Yeah. Yeah. You, you don't have the right mindset to be making those decisions at all. Because any bit like the devil looks good if you're late, right? If you're angry enough.

47:14 - 47:15
Rachel-Guest: Yeah, exactly.

47:15 - 47:47
Cheryl-Host: Oh my gosh. Okay, I'm gonna ask you know, we have to wrap up. I want to ask how long is too long and I'm thinking a very personal connection. When you start the divorce, maybe you've gone through some mediation that didn't work. Now you're going back and forth with lawyers. How long is too long when you go, this is ridiculous. And I'm thinking about like a 6 year process for a friend of mine. Like how long is too long when you have like, then what, like the lawyers are going back and forth. No, I don't like

47:47 - 47:50
Cheryl-Host: gone to court. Oh my God. It's just been.

47:50 - 48:24
Rachel-Guest: Those are the people that I considered being married to the divorce. They don't like their spouse, but the thought of not having their spouse is really too much. So first of all, in most areas, there's a, you have, there's a minimum amount of time before you can be legally divorced. In California, it varies between 6 months and maybe there's like 2 weeks in some locations. So you obviously can't get divorced in that amount of time. But I personally put my clients on a trial trajectory immediately. So I'm going to assume we always have the same issues

48:24 - 48:59
Rachel-Guest: in a divorce division of assets, division of debts, child custody and visitation, spousal support, child support. It's the same absolutely everywhere. So we know we have those. Let's assume we're going to trial and we have trial dates, you know, in a year or whatever. And if we can settle those things along the way, great. But if not, we know that we're going to get a judge to make a decision. And I do that for 2 reasons. When you go and prepare for trial, you're making steps moving in getting the evidence to support your position. That shows

48:59 - 49:32
Rachel-Guest: you the weaknesses in your case and it shows your strengths, it will likely help you get a higher settlement. If you are arguing over what spousal support should be because your ex has, you know, 3 PhDs but is working at McDonald's, the faster you can start to prove why they should be paying spousal support and are, you know, being a dirt bag and not working, the faster you're likely to get them on board because now they know all of this evidence is going to go before the court. So starting that process immediately makes you more likely

49:32 - 50:05
Rachel-Guest: to settle immediately. Also, if we're talking about like very controlling or narcissistic exes, I'm not, I don't believe that we're all married to narcissists. I, every call I get is that I'm married to a narcissist. No narcissists have, have selfish tendencies, but as humans were selfish and you become more selfish when you get divorced and you don't care about this other person. So I think it brings out maybe a very controlling natural position that we all have, very self-serving. But to the extent that you have 1 of those people that you're going up against, they can

50:05 - 50:32
Rachel-Guest: be really challenging. Forcing their hand in trial is a really easy way to have them die down with the control and the nonsense because they're going to just try and control and manipulate like they maybe always have, but they know that it's a lot of hot air. And so if you've put them on a day that they have to go to trial, even if they make it hell all the way up until right before trial, they don't want to go to trial. They don't have it in them. They it's very easy to show in court. So

50:32 - 51:05
Rachel-Guest: they'll probably settle. So I think for a lot of reasons, if you go on the trial track right away, you will end your divorce case immediately. And when I have cases that I get where it has been going on too long, that's immediately what I do. I go in, I request trial dates, I set through all of the things. And we usually settle before because somebody finally got serious and everybody's scared. Right? So I don't know that you should ever just try and paddle along.

51:05 - 51:25
Cheryl-Host: And you know what? I'm so glad I asked that because my perception from other conversations is the lawyers just want you to get to court because then they get paid more. But in your process, what you're talking about now is you would get paid less because likely you would get things settled because there is an end. I'm so glad I asked this.

51:25 - 51:54
Rachel-Guest: So trial is expensive. I don't want to start saying like trials on expensive, but you think That 6 years of having lawyers have waste time, continue hearings, go back and forth is going to be less expensive. Up front, my clients are going to be paying a lot more, right? There are clients that get a $10, 000 bill in their first month because we have a lot of work to do. It is not hard for an attorney to bill $2, 000, $3, 000 in a month for just sending some letters, making some phone calls, writing some settlements

51:54 - 52:12
Rachel-Guest: that are not going to be accepted, talking to you about it. That's very easy to do. So I think you end up paying more in the long run, but it's at smaller bites than if you just do this and you bite it off right at the beginning. And then you usually end up with a better result at the end anyway.

52:12 - 52:27
Cheryl-Host: Yeah, it just makes so much sense. Am I ever glad I asked that question? Yeah. Interesting. Well, I know we can't stay forever and I feel like I have like 5 more hours than me. So maybe we have to do a sequel, but yeah, for sure. Talk about first of all,

52:27 - 53:01
Rachel-Guest: the podcast talk about the clock is so good. It's so informative. Thank you. I have Gables Down, Voices Up. It is a podcast that really talks about different areas of law. We do focus on family law, but we also talk about probate. Interestingly, divorce and probate go kind of hand in hand. So we talk about general ideas and it's not state specific. So much of what I talk about with my own experience is in California, because that's where I primarily primarily practice. But with my podcast, they try and give general overviews so that you can go

53:01 - 53:12
Rachel-Guest: in and relate it to your specific situation and maybe take the information and tips to an attorney in your jurisdiction. So I'd love everybody to find it on YouTube. I'll put

53:12 - 53:15
Cheryl-Host: the link in the show notes. Yes, thank you. And subscribe.

53:15 - 53:22
Rachel-Guest: It comes out weekly and they're not terribly long. They're little snippets. I try and keep them right about 15 minutes so you can

53:22 - 53:23
Cheryl-Host: listen to them.

53:24 - 53:30
Rachel-Guest: Do your coffee or something, right? It's not a huge commitment because really most people don't want to talk to a lawyer for over

53:30 - 53:44
Cheryl-Host: an hour. So and where can we work with you? Do you have a website? Do you have, where can, where can we find you if we desperately need? And, and can we work with you online if we're not in California? Like, how does that work?

53:45 - 54:19
Rachel-Guest: Yeah. So I, my physical office is in Southern California. I'm the lawyerking.com. So you can find me on my webpage there. That is THE, lawyerking.com. People forget that. And I am completely remote. So we were actually, we have, or we have a hybrid situation. We have a physical office where we can meet with clients, but even prior to COVID, we had a completely cloud-based firm. So I have clients all over the world that have legal issues in the states that I'm licensed in. So absolutely call, reach out. We can, we can handle almost any case throughout

54:19 - 54:22
Rachel-Guest: the state of California, Kentucky, Arizona and Texas.

54:22 - 54:54
Cheryl-Host: So good. Rachel, I'm so glad we did this. I'm so glad because like I said, 48%. So even if this is not you, This is someone you know, this is, and this is important stuff. So you have to share this kind of information, I'm telling you, please share this around, because there's somebody next to you, who's going to go through this or is going through this. And like me might have some very misguided conceptions about how things work. So Rachel, thank you so much. Thanks for the work you do. You're obviously very passionate. I could talk

54:54 - 54:57
Cheryl-Host: to you as a lawyer all day long. This is great.

54:57 - 54:59
Rachel-Guest: Thank you so much. Thank you. Invite me back. I'd be happy

54:59 - 55:05
Cheryl-Host: to come. Awesome. Awesome. Thank you for listening. Teen Minds Redefined and we'll see you next time.