# 59  "Strategies for Teens with Autism to Build Independence" Shea Belsky on Autism Advocacy"

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheabelsky/

In this enlightening episode of "Parenting Teens Advice Redefined," we dive deep into the world of neurodiversity with Shea Belsky, an inspiring autistic self-advocate and senior software engineer. Shea shares his personal journey through the education system and into the workforce, highlighting the importance of understanding and patience for neurodivergent individuals. With a powerful mantra—"My autism is other people's problems, not mine"—Shea challenges societal perceptions and empowers parents to foster open conversations about autism. Whether you're a parent of a neurodivergent teen or simply looking to gain insight into the autistic experience, this episode is packed with valuable advice, heartfelt stories, and practical strategies for navigating the complexities of raising and supporting neurodivergent youth. Tune in to discover how to create a more inclusive and understanding environment for your child.

Shea Belsky is an autistic self-advocate and changemaker. He is a Senior Software Engineer II at HubSpot, and the former Chief Technology Officer of Mentra, an inclusive hiring platform connecting neurodivergent jobseekers with gainful employment opportunities. Shea brings several unique perspectives to the discussion on neurodiversity: He is the manager of neurodivergent & neurotypical employees, has reported to neurodivergent & neurotypical managers, and has advocated for the needs and wellbeing of all who seek to be heard and understood in the workplace. Shea has championed neurodiversity for organizations like Novartis, the Organization for Autism Research, Confluent, Northeastern University, among many others. He's excited to share his perspectives on neurodiversity and how to be a meaningful ally and advocate

00:01 - 00:37
Cheryl-Host: This episode today was amazing. I had such a great conversation with Shae Belsky. He is an advocate. He's a neurodivergent individual. And he really got down and gave us some clarity on what worked for him in high school, what parents can do, what experiences he had. His quote, and I loved it, was, my autism is other people's problems, not mine, which I just love. In our conversation, you're going to see why. What a warm-hearted, wonderful, kind, caring individual to share his story with us was amazing. Keep listening, tune in. If you're a parent who has a

00:37 - 01:18
Cheryl-Host: neurodivergent teen or you know somebody who does, please share this. You're just gonna love this conversation. You're gonna love Shay. And here we go. Welcome to another episode of formerly known as Teen Minds Redefined. It's had a little shift in the name that I'll explain later, but it's now Parenting teens advice redefined for today's world. And it's a podcast that we uncover real stories and we have expert insights for parents navigating the complexities of raising teens. Today I am excited to have Shay Belsky, an inspiring autistic self-advocate and change maker. As a senior software engineer at

01:18 - 02:02
Cheryl-Host: HubSpot and the former CTO of Mentra, she has been a powerful voice for neurodivergent individuals in the workplace. He has led teams, trained managers, championed meaningful change across major organizations, including the Vardis and the Organization for Autism Research. And today we're diving into Shea's journey as an autistic individual in education and the workforce. From his experience with IEPs to the surprises he encountered in college. We'll discuss how he navigated social cues, friendships, and priorities, and what it means when he says, my autism is other people's problem, not mine. Welcome, Shay Belsky, with the line of the

02:02 - 02:02
Cheryl-Host: week.

02:03 - 02:34
Shea-Guest: Cheryl, thank you so much for having me. I remembered that line pretty vividly as far as what we talked about before. And I really think that a flavor of element of that is always true because something that I learned as part of becoming a better self-advocate was to be more confident and more I would say assertive about my autism. Not letting the world kind of bend me over and break me, but being able to stand a little bit taller and figure out what I needed and ask for it. And if I can't get what I needed,

02:34 - 02:36
Shea-Guest: at least I put my foot out there and I tried.

02:37 - 02:45
Cheryl-Host: That's amazing. I love that. And let's just start first. Like, where are you right now? What are you doing right now? What's exciting you right now? Like, what's your story?

02:46 - 03:13
Shea-Guest: What's exciting me right now is that off to the side of me I have a large collection of moving boxes and supplies. My wife and I are planning on moving from Charlotte, North Carolina, back up to the Boston, Massachusetts area. This move has been kind of in their planning for a while. And we're both pretty eager to be moving back up there. A bunch of our family and friends are up there. We love Charlotte, it's an amazing place, but we're both kind of home bodies. We both really love being with our friends and family who are

03:13 - 03:24
Shea-Guest: up there, so it's kind of a long time coming. And so that's kind of the exciting action piece of my life right now. Tonight, I'm going to spend a few hours just starting to put boxes together and get stuff in there.

03:24 - 03:32
Cheryl-Host: Amazing. And so what are you doing? Like, why are you podcasting now? What story are you sharing? What do you want people to know right now?

03:32 - 04:10
Shea-Guest: The biggest thing that I have encountered as talking about autism neurodiversity is that so many people know somebody who is autistic, who is neurodivergent, but very few people know how to have a comfortable conversation about it. The topic of it is often intimidating or scary or very laden with medical clinical terms. And what I'm here to do on this show and on others is to make that conversation a lot more accessible, a lot more approachable, and to make it less scary, less frightening for people to be able to talk about autism with their kids, with their

04:10 - 04:25
Shea-Guest: family, with their friends. So it's not this oogie boogie thing that you have to be worried about forever, but something that you can have a conversation about. And maybe it is a difficult 1, but at least to make it a productive, meaningful and fruitful discussion.

04:26 - 05:02
Cheryl-Host: I love that. That's such a good start. I want to, can we go back to like your journey? I have a lot of parents of teens that listen to this podcast and my background is I work for 25 years with kids on the spectrum and high school. So teens and I really saw I mean they say if you see 1 kid on the autism spectrum, you see 1 kid on the autism spectrum. Very true. So everybody is very different at individual needs and I don't know, characteristics, markers, I'm not sure, Is characteristics the best way to

05:02 - 05:02
Cheryl-Host: say that?

05:03 - 05:36
Shea-Guest: Characteristics is 1 way support needs, strengths, unique traits. What someone with autism sets them apart from somebody else is the fact that they have areas where they're really strong, where they excel. And they have areas where they need a little bit of support, they need help, and they can't get by without the assistance of other people. In the school setting, for instance, I had a one-on-one, a shadow and aid, there's 20 million terms for them, and everyone I talked to had a different term for it. At my school it was a one-on-one. That was the term

05:36 - 06:07
Shea-Guest: that I had someone who went to my classes with me who kind of was on the appearances a teacher's assistant or a teaching aide and I'm sure some people caught along as to what they were actually there for, but most people were oblivious to the fact that they were there for me, at least to my knowledge. That's just 1 example of this individual, this teaching assistant, this one-on-one, was there to help me more with executive functioning, more to help me get what I needed, not necessarily to help me do my work, but to facilitate my ability

06:07 - 06:17
Shea-Guest: to do the work, which is an important distinction. It was not a cheat code. They didn't do my work for me, but they certainly helped me create the environment in which I could do my work.

06:18 - 06:51
Cheryl-Host: So in the times now public education. There's very, very seldom 1 on 1. There's very typically only the support of an EA or TA that goes into a classroom with multiple kids who have very significant needs or just needs, unique needs. So how would that be different for you in the classroom if you had 1 person in the classroom to help support and kids who had some unique needs.

06:52 - 07:21
Shea-Guest: What's great about me having a literal 1 on 1 was that they were able to kind of keep their full attention on me and maybe help me be aware of things I didn't know to be aware of or to watch out for things that could have been stressors or could have implicated my ability to do work. And if I was going to, if it was going to be like 1 TA to 10 students, then I'd have to be a lot more aware of those sorts of triggers, those sorts of distractions, those sorts of problems that could

07:21 - 07:37
Shea-Guest: stop me from doing the best work that I was capable of. It puts a lot more emphasis on the individual, on the students to know what's going on rather than kind of them being an autopilot and relying on other people to act as those guards, as those orders guard rails.

07:38 - 07:50
Cheryl-Host: So were you, did you get your advocacy skills from your parents? Did you learn these skills from your parents? Were they significant in getting you the support that you had in school?

07:50 - 08:23
Shea-Guest: My parents were instrumental in me getting the support that I needed and acting as the advocate for me for the most part when I was in public school, I would say for like my junior, senior until my junior year or so, they were really the ones who were advocating for me, getting with me what I needed. I didn't really become a much stronger self-advocate until I graduated and went to Cornell University. That's where I became a lot more confident in my ability to understand what it was I needed and what it was that wasn't working. And

08:23 - 08:53
Shea-Guest: that was mostly a trial and error process and also to the point of earlier, making my autism over people's problems, not to that severe an extent, but to really understand like, what kind of environment am I going to be okay in, what am I not going to be okay in? Part of the thing that I think really helped me with that journey was in high school, I had a lot of emotional social baggage. People knew me as the weird kid, as the strange person, as the clearly special education kid. And so it was hard for me

08:53 - 09:16
Shea-Guest: to be experimental about that fear of judgment. But when I went to university where I knew basically next to nobody except maybe a small handful of people, I was allowed to be a little more experimental. I was allowed to try different things because I was in a CF, I was a little bit of a freshman. Everybody is doing the same thing. So what did I have to lose except for trying? And I think that really helped me as far as finding my confidence and finding my voice.

09:17 - 09:48
Cheryl-Host: Wow. And so in high school, what did high school, what helped you prepare for post-secondary and what did what happened in high school that failed you to prepare? So when you get out there, you're in Cornell, you're going, man, I wish they had have done this. I wish they had have done this, but I'm glad they did this. Like what were the goods and the bads when it comes to preparation in high school for someone like yourself with your unique needs to move on to post-secondary?

09:50 - 10:18
Shea-Guest: The things that I think really helped me was starting to, I would say, become more autonomous and become less dependent, I would say, on the support services that I needed. Like, I had a one-on-one my freshman year at high school and then sophomore, junior, senior year I did not have 1. I still had other services at the time that I really relied on but I kind of did not have somebody always looking over my shoulder to help me account for things that I didn't know how to do. I kind of had to figure those things out

10:18 - 10:48
Shea-Guest: on my own. I would say, having a, I want to call it a longer leash, but certainly having more independence, whether I'm successful or not, to figure those things out was a really huge part in my ability to be successful and to feel like I could get a handle on these things. What do I feel like was not fruitful or was not helpful? Something I really wish that I had done that I didn't do enough of was be a little bit more present in my IEP meetings. Part of that I think was because that wasn't necessarily

10:48 - 11:15
Shea-Guest: common when I was in high school and I know from what I've heard a lot of people that's changing a lot more where more and more kids are in their own IEP meetings. That was, I would say, uncommon when I was in school. Not that it was impossible, but I think it wasn't as accepted as it is today. And I wish that I had, I think, been able to advocate for myself a little bit more in my own IEP meetings and not kind of like let it happen and not have any incidents as a process and

11:15 - 11:24
Shea-Guest: not be able to kind of speak up for myself. Not necessarily to defend myself, but to hear more about the decisions people were making on my behalf.

11:25 - 11:52
Cheryl-Host: And when we talk about IEPs, I mean, obviously I've worked very close with IEPs and when I was doing my specific role in the high school, it was so important for me to go to the grade 8 meetings and have the kids sitting at the table with the IEP that is now going to transition for them to grade 9. And you know, I'm just going to here's a little plug parents if you're listening, get your kids at the table please don't have any meetings without them.

11:52 - 11:53
Shea-Guest: Completely agree.

11:53 - 12:25
Cheryl-Host: And this will you know, it's great because you get a kid who's in the you know, going to write a test and there's a supply teacher, and they don't know the accommodations. And if your kid is not sitting in on IEP meetings, and it really has no idea what they are entitled to, not getting a favor for, let me repeat that, entitled to, then they are able to stand up and say, hey, you know, I know you're a supply teacher, but I have an IEP and it says I need extra time. It says I get to

12:25 - 12:44
Cheryl-Host: get a break. And it will be like second nature for them if they get into these meetings very soon and get accustomed to knowing their own strengths and their own areas of need and being able to vocalize them as a right, not as a, oh, you know, I feel.

12:45 - 13:14
Shea-Guest: Yeah, and that actually transitioned nicely into the college experience. For the most part, again, emphasis for the most part, most of my instructors, if I had an accommodation, need additional support, they were pretty good about helping me and giving me what I needed. And there was a small subsection of teachers who didn't understand or were resistant to that. And knowing what I had to say or who I had to rely on was really helpful to kind of really put my foot down and say, no, I actually really need this. I'm not making this up. It's not

13:14 - 13:40
Shea-Guest: coming out of nowhere. And being able to identify disability services at Cornell University to say, hey, I really need you to write a letter to this professor because they're not, I'm not getting through to them on my own. I kind of need a little bit of a push. And often that push is enough to kind of get them to actually work with me without creating any hostility. Because at the end of the day, I want to do my job as a student, they want to do their job as an instructor. And so let's just get on

13:40 - 13:42
Shea-Guest: with that and make it as easy as possible.

13:42 - 13:47
Cheryl-Host: That's so good. That's so good. Like, doesn't have to be difficult. It really doesn't have to be difficult.

13:48 - 14:02
Shea-Guest: Yeah, and to be honest the experience I had at Cornell was mostly positive in that regard. Most of the teachers and instructors that I worked with did not have any issues of it and most were really good to me, but there was always like a few holdouts but nothing super substantial.

14:03 - 14:08
Cheryl-Host: Did you find yourself actually taking on the role of advocate while you were at Cornell?

14:10 - 14:41
Shea-Guest: In the sense that I was advocating for myself a lot more, yes. It is much more of an active effort on the part of the individual, of the student, to advocate for themselves. It's an important part of transitioning to college in general. You're on your own, you're responsible for doing your own homework, no one's going to remind you about these things. You have to build that up for yourself. And self advocacy as a person with disability falls very neatly into that category of identifying what do I need to be successful, what do I actually need to

14:41 - 14:57
Shea-Guest: ask for, and who am I going to ask for those things. I think there's a hugely important part about the transition as an individual disability and for my disability the accommodations were pretty straightforward. For people who I knew there was a lot more complexity and nuance to them.

14:57 - 15:01
Cheryl-Host: Did you go into a residence in Cornell or were you still at home?

15:02 - 15:04
Shea-Guest: I lived on campus. I was in a dorm.

15:05 - 15:17
Cheryl-Host: Tell me about that transition and tell me how your parents handled it and just I feel like that's a story there and like that whole transition to even like freedom but freedom?

15:18 - 15:25
Shea-Guest: The freshman 15 definitely a real thing. I definitely took advantage of a lot of the food that was there. Cornel is great food.

15:25 - 15:27
Cheryl-Host: Okay, I'm going to clarify what that is.

15:27 - 16:01
Shea-Guest: The freshman 15? The Freshman 15, the joke is that freshmen at universities gain 15 pounds just from the unfettered access to food, whether you have a meal plan or just the variety and the depth to which there are places to go get something to eat. I was absolutely subscribed to that. What I actually think is more interesting and relevant to me, which is also connected to the self-advocacy, was like having a roommate for the first time. This wasn't my first time living away from home. I'd done like sleepaway camps. I had been away from home for

16:01 - 16:35
Shea-Guest: months at a time before. So this wasn't my first rodeo, but it was my first time being away from home for like multiple months on end, like from September to November, December, or then January until May. Definitely a difference there for me. But I love my roommate. We got along really well. He was awesome to me. There's 1 moment which always sticks out to me because it's a very interesting confluence of being a freshman and also being a self advocate. He wanted me to go to a frat party. I forget if he wanted me to or

16:35 - 17:08
Shea-Guest: if I asked him to. I actually think that I asked him very explicitly, can you take me to a frat party? And he said sure. And we went And he was teaching me about all these things I had absolutely no concept of, like paying cover at Cornell's at some parties you needed to be with a girl that was a ratio. There's all these things I had absolutely no concept of. And I'm learning a lot. A lot of it's going over my head, but I'm just like learning and absorbing. We get in complete sensory nightmare. It was

17:08 - 17:36
Shea-Guest: very loud, it's very bright, it's very smelly, very like, very everything. And I'm like, I cannot be in this environment. I last maybe 5 minutes. And as I'm walking out the door, these 2 other girls who had come with this big group with us were like, oh, let's go somewhere else to a different party. And on the 1 hand, I'm like, do I really want to go to another frat party? And on the other hand, I'm like, let's just try it and see what it's like. So we go to the second party. It's a lot less

17:36 - 18:04
Shea-Guest: bright, a lot less noisy, a lot more room to move around. It's a lot less everything. So I'm like, okay, this is the sort of thing that I could do if I had to. If someone dragged me out to a party, this is okay for me. But I would never have understood that's like my ceiling and this is what's past my ceiling had I not had the courage to kind of step out of my comfort zone just a little bit. Because the worst case scenario was I walk home, I never do it again. But at least

18:05 - 18:27
Shea-Guest: on that night, I knew, I'm like, okay, this works for me, and this does not. So going forward, this is what you need to know about going to parties of this nature now for the rest of your life, until you feel like gaining more confidence in other sorts of parties. But I really thought that was a very formative moment of my freshman experience, just having that moment of calibration and advocacy.

18:28 - 18:49
Cheryl-Host: That's so interesting. I really like that story because it really does, you know, if people are listening, it's like, okay, they went to this frat party and it didn't work and then they went home and they never tried again but you're saying no keep try try a different way try a different And it could get there and you and did you enjoy the second party? Or did

18:49 - 19:23
Shea-Guest: you enjoy the award in the first party? I think the word is definitely tolerated. I was like having conversations. I could kind of mosey about be social. I stayed longer at that party than the first party for sure. It was good for me to gain an experience at the start of an experience without feeling overwhelmed. Because at the first party, so much of the energy in my brain and my social battery was dedicated just to managing sensory, just dedicated to managing people trying to talk to me, managing smell, managing lights, managing whatever it was. Or as

19:23 - 19:32
Shea-Guest: it is, other party, much less energy was being spent doing all of those things. I could focus on having a conversation, being social, being a little bit more present.

19:34 - 19:52
Cheryl-Host: So I wonder, is there a unique need or area of need in communication and social interactions for you or typically a neurodivergent person.

19:54 - 20:22
Shea-Guest: When you say a unique need, I think what that really comes down to is a couple different steps. It's understanding what do I need as an individual? What is going to need to change about my environment or my setting or about me to make this happen? And then number 2, what are the words I actually have to say to make that happen? And then number 3AM I in the right environment? Do I have the right people to actually make that happen? Because I can have all the thoughts going through my head, but if I feel like

20:22 - 20:51
Shea-Guest: people around me don't understand or will look down on me for, or will judge me for it, that's maybe not the best environment within which I need to ask you for myself. And I have to find the right environment or create that environment for me to be able to be a more effective self advocate. And so often I've been in environments where that has worked and also where it hasn't worked. And it really is about that surrounding yourself with those people who are able to help you, able to facilitate something, or people who don't know any

20:51 - 21:00
Shea-Guest: better and who just have that kind of a love language respect for everybody as a default. It doesn't matter if you're autistic or not, they just kind of want to help you regardless of what's going on.

21:00 - 21:09
Cheryl-Host: Yeah, I love that. I wish everybody had that. Is there, and I noticed, I was curious when I was working with a lot of the students

21:10 - 21:10
Shea-Guest: who are

21:10 - 21:39
Cheryl-Host: on the spectrum about being able to read social cues and that, how does that affect you? And how do you, you know, with the kids I knew, it almost felt more like they were able to memorize, but they didn't actually internalize the nuances between dirty looks and body language. And can you say a little about social cues

21:40 - 22:07
Shea-Guest: and? It's funny you use the terminology, because I actually think I have to agree with that, at least for me. Like I had to learn that behavior. I had to understand it very logically. Like, if this is how someone's behavior looks, then this is what that means, and here's what I'm going to do about it. I've gotten to the point where my ability to recognize and understand and respond to that is natural, indistinguishable from someone who's neurotypical at this point in time, but when I was learning those behaviors, it was a very logical kind of thing

22:07 - 22:41
Shea-Guest: to understand, like, when someone has this appearance, this tone of voice, this body language, this is what they're trying to do. Here's how you should respond based on what you actually want. If someone's trying to be flirty, this is this is what to look for. And here's what you want to do about it. If you feel like playing patty cake back with being flirty, maybe you're not interested, maybe you are. I think it's very easy to understand the behaviors, but how you respond to it is often such a different conversation because you have to know how

22:41 - 23:16
Shea-Guest: to respond to it. And that is definitely a skill which I've had to build over time as far as when I see something happening in front of me, when I recognize what it is, do I feel as though I am confident in myself to be able to respond to this with the justice that it deserves for situations that are more serious or more severe. It really depends based on the situation. If somebody, this is a true story. I met my wife at the time she was my girlfriend and this is the summer of 2020. She had

23:16 - 23:46
Shea-Guest: something bad to eat or bad to drink, I'm not sure what, and she grew up. I recognized the fact that she was feeling upset and not in a good mood. I recognized that this was not a good situation. What I responded with was bringing her ice cream. That's not what she needed at the time, not what would have made her feel better, but it was my way of trying to fix the situation. It was well-intentioned, but not well-executed. And we talked about that for a while afterwards, because she recognized I was being very genuine, very honest,

23:46 - 24:08
Shea-Guest: but I didn't know what I was doing. So I always look back and laugh because I was being honest and genuine and I wouldn't have to intervene differently at that point in time. I know better now, but that was only a few years ago. So it's not like I'm still this expert social master. I'm still learning something new every day. So it's not like these things ever become bulletproof.

24:09 - 24:26
Cheryl-Host: Right. And so if parents are listening and they know that, say, their teenager in high school is really struggling with the social cues, Is there any resources, strategies, advice you would give them in order to help them at least logistically learn those social cues?

24:28 - 24:58
Shea-Guest: This is maybe a silly example, but I think it actually is pretty relevant. I love acting, I love theater, I love Bungers and Dragons to be honest. And those sorts of environments are really honestly supportive as far as being able to put yourself in a social situation or put yourself in a situation where you feel like you have to respond, but it's very scripted. And I definitely behave well with a script in my hand. And also having a director, having someone on top of kind of coaching you about this is how you should act. This is

24:58 - 25:30
Shea-Guest: how you should do this, I think is actually a very, not ostentatious, but very intentional way to help people understand this is this is the behavior we're looking for to kind of learn that and have it become more natural because you want it to look natural people around you because you're on a stage doing and obviously maybe acting is not the thing. It was certainly helpful for me. And I think what actually is a lot more accessible, to be honest with you, is something like Dungeons and Dragons because of the much more supportive environment. It was

25:30 - 26:03
Shea-Guest: a very low barrier to entry. You can do it with a bunch of your friends and people who are really supportive of you. And that's a great way for you to experiment with different ways of emoting and being an emotional social person. I often take the role of dungeon master, which gives me lots of opportunities to try on different emotions. What does an angry Shay sound like? What does a mad Shay sound like? What does a happy, joyful, sad, flirtatious version of me sound like? And just kind of experimenting. And then also kind of gauging the

26:03 - 26:17
Shea-Guest: responses of my players too, to hear from what they're saying and say like, oh, we really bought into that or no, that's not how someone who's flirtatious actually acts. But seeing their feedback, I think actually really helps.

26:18 - 26:25
Cheryl-Host: I think you're on to something. I think Autism Ontario needs to hear about this acting on stage role play. I think you're on to something.

26:26 - 27:00
Shea-Guest: I've actually run the Dungeons and Dragons campaign for people who are autistic to really give them that environment where they can be a little more experimental and also to have that social setting where they feel like they can be themselves without fear of judgment. And maybe they're not emphasizing the emotion, maybe they're not emphasizing certain things, but they have that environment, people around them to socialize, to emote. And I would add on to my answer before of really finding those social spaces with people who will accept them and support them. And maybe it is over autistic

27:00 - 27:28
Shea-Guest: kids, maybe it's something totally different, But I think finding that supportive environment within which they can socialize and flourish is super, super important. That's something that I think I really wish that I'd had growing up, which wasn't really as big of a thing when I was growing up. So it's not like my parents did anything wrong. It just wasn't really there. Also, the internet was still like, kind of new-ish. Like, I had only discovered Reddit in like my junior, senior year. Had it been around a lot earlier, I would have been able to like socialize people

27:28 - 27:31
Shea-Guest: a lot more who I felt were like, like me.

27:31 - 27:48
Cheryl-Host: Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. So I just want to ask now, I know we, you know, it's usually it's our parents, they're listening, but I want to know, okay, Cornell University, and then what like, wow, you're, you're,

27:48 - 27:49
Shea-Guest: I'm in the real world.

27:49 - 28:13
Cheryl-Host: Whoa, talk about that and the advocating there, like how you're doing that and how you're bringing you know this voice to people who just need to have a voice and use their own voice. And I don't think, I'm just gonna say even in school, you know, I don't think it's that hard to accommodate people. I really don't think it's that hard.

28:14 - 28:47
Shea-Guest: Practically, it's not. I think when people get hung up is the preconceived notions that people come in with or that they are brought up around or what they observe. And we see that attitude of a lot of other things and disability, neurodiversity is an exception to that. I know a lot of people in my life who have people who they love and care about who are neurodivergent or autistic, but they don't feel comfortable talking about it. It's taboo. It's not something they want to talk about. And that sort of negative reinforcement builds bad experiences, bad behaviors.

28:47 - 29:18
Shea-Guest: And as a result, you have people who become really entrenched against the idea of neurodiversity. And I've run into like a small handful of people in my time who behave like that, and talking about like the workforce and stuff like that. I would say 95% of my experiences about me talking about my autism in the workplace have been positive. People either want to know more or don't know anything about it, which gives me a chance to educate them. Only a very, very small handful of times early on in my career, if I had people be combative

29:18 - 29:28
Shea-Guest: or resistant to talking about it, and that was more out of a place of ignorance and not out of like hostility for the most part.

29:28 - 29:34
Cheryl-Host: Right. So are there resources out there for people who like, I

29:34 - 29:35
Shea-Guest: don't know,

29:35 - 29:53
Cheryl-Host: live under a rock and have absolutely no idea about this? Is there resources like books, movies, anything, even TV shows you'd say, watch this and you will understand more, read this, you will understand more, or even with parents who are, you know, the kids are just newly diagnosed, had no idea what was going on till grade 9.

29:54 - 30:26
Shea-Guest: There are 2 that come to my mind. The first is a documentary about a non-speaking autistic woman. It's called This Is Not About Me. It features a non-speaking autistic woman, I don't know, probably around the same age as me, like 20s or so, not 100% sure, but she's non-speaking and she's a woman, which is already not something that gets a lot of emphasis or attention, to be honest with you, But really it focuses on her story about finding her own level of advocacy, relying on people around her on technology, and finding the ability to advocate, and

30:26 - 31:00
Shea-Guest: then really going all in on her ability to do so. Not being seen as someone who's intellectually deficient, but someone who's really excelling and intelligent and brave, kind, honest, all these amazing things, but just happens to have a lot of support needs to get through the day, like a communication tool, maybe people to support her during the day, stuff like that. But this is an individual who, her name is, her name is Jordan Zimmerman, I'm sorry. Jordan Zimmerman, the documentary is called This Is Not About Me. She graduated from Boston College, 4 year degree. She now

31:00 - 31:38
Shea-Guest: works as a product manager at a tech company in Boston. She's doing awesome and she just happens to have her support needs. And she's in an environment which is really awesome for folks to be able to support her and get her what she needs. The second thing I think is really important is called We Are Not Broken. It's a book by Eric Garcia really collecting experiences from the huge range of autistic experiences from across gender, race, religion, sexual identity, really covering the breadth of experiences to paint a much more complete picture of autistic individuals, who they

31:38 - 31:52
Shea-Guest: are, the people who love and support them, their workplaces, their lives. I think those 2 things really do a great authentic job of showing the breadth and depth of experiences that people face.

31:52 - 32:09
Cheryl-Host: Now I'm going to put that in the show notes for sure. That's great. Thank you for sharing that. So I have 1 more question. Well, I have a couple more questions, but this question is, if you could go back, what's 1 thing you wish people truly knew about you in school?

32:13 - 32:50
Shea-Guest: If I could tell people about the school of any 1 thing it was it would be be patient I think Especially with people who had issues and challenges like myself, I think they hold everyone to a very high bar and they kind of expect everybody to fit into the puzzle very neatly, very cleanly, whereas I was not fitting into anyone's puzzle. I was just doing my own thing. I've never loved the autism puzzle metaphor terminology. I didn't mean to introduce it here, but I think it's interesting in the sense of I've never kind of like fit

32:50 - 33:16
Shea-Guest: into everything. And so I create, I try to fit into other people's spaces as best I can. And sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. And what I wish I think people around me could have done differently when I was growing up would be like a little bit, not necessarily kinder, but just more patient and letting me catch up to them on my terms rather than like get a yanking bite of collar to get to where they were, but I don't feel like I earned it or that it's natural to me.

33:17 - 33:28
Cheryl-Host: That is really impactful. I'm glad you said that. Thank you. So tell me what's next for your journey of advocacy. Tell us where we can find you. Tell us all about Shay Belsky.

33:29 - 33:59
Shea-Guest: What's next for me. My wife and I really want to start a podcast. She has a lot of things to talk about as far as us as a couple. I'm neurodivergent, she's neurotypical, so I think there's a lot of experiences that are there. She listens to podcasts all the time. I like being on podcasts, so I think it's a really good mixture and blend of our experiences with podcasts. So that's still kind of like an under construction kind of thing. We have to get for this big move first. So it's definitely a 2025 kind of thing.

33:59 - 34:18
Shea-Guest: But definitely something we're talking about a lot. Until then, you can always find me on the web. I am on LinkedIn. My name is Shay Belsky. I have a website as well, Shay Belsky. There's only 1 of me. If you Google me, I promise you will find me. There's not another 1 to find. I have made sure of that.

34:18 - 34:41
Cheryl-Host: I bet. I bet. You are 1 unique, beautiful individual. I am so grateful for this conversation, Shay. I'm so glad we, I don't know, we bumped into each other on some kind of networking and I thought, oh, yep, he needs to be on my podcast. And let me put it out there, when you're ready for your podcast, I would love to have you and your wife here and we'll talk about your new podcast coming. How's that?

34:41 - 34:42
Shea-Guest: Sounds like a plan, I can't wait.

34:42 - 35:04
Cheryl-Host: That would be a blast, I would love it. Shay, thank you so much for the work you're doing. You are leaps and bounds like just helping people and advocating for people and giving them a voice and there's just I don't think anything better in the world to tell you the truth. So thank you so much. Thank you for joining us on parenting team's advice redefined for today's. Thank you, Shay.

35:04 - 35:06
Shea-Guest: Thank you, Cheryl. Appreciate it.