#85 "The Good Divorce Experience: Redefining Co-Parenting for the Gap Years Teens 16 +" with Karen McNenny

Navigating the Good Divorce: Insights and Strategies with Karen McNenney

Welcome back to another enlightening episode of Parenting Teens: Advice Redefined for Today's World. In this episode, your host Cheryl Pankhurst dives deep into one of the most emotionally charged experiences a family can face: divorce. Joined by Karen McNenney, a nationally recognized mediator, divorce coach, and therapist with over 25 years of experience, we explore how to navigate divorce with dignity, clarity, and compassion, especially when it involves teenagers and young adults.

Karen, the founder of The Good Divorce Experience and host of The Good Divorce Show podcast, shares her personal journey and professional insights on co-parenting, relationship literacy, and the importance of maintaining stability for children aged 16 to 25. Discover practical tools and powerful perspectives to support your teens and yourself through this challenging transition.

Key Takeaways:

• The importance of communicating what will not change during a divorce.
• How to have the initial conversation with your teens about divorce.
• Strategies for co-parenting and maintaining a unified front.
• Understanding the unique challenges faced by young adults during a family transition.

Call to Action: If you're a parent navigating the complexities of divorce or co-parenting, this episode is a must-listen. Share it with friends or family who might benefit from these insights. For more personalized guidance, connect with Karen McNenney at The Good Divorce Coach or schedule a free consultation with Cheryl to explore how you can transform your family dynamics.

Connect with Us:

• Karen McNenney's Website
• The Good Divorce Show Podcast
• Schedule a Call with Cheryl

 #ParentingTeens #GoodDivorce #CoParenting #TeenAdvice #FamilyDynamics #DivorceSupport #ParentingPodcast #Teenagers #FamilyTransition #DivorceCoach

Cheryl
00:01 - 00:48
This conversation that I had with Karen McNenney today about the good divorce, we got into maybe a tenth of what we needed to talk about and answer questions too. And we really geared the conversation around divorce and co-parenting, not just younger kids, but as we get our kids into like 16, 17 and older to 25, it is a whole different ballgame when going through divorce. And you know, Karen was really, amazing in her approach to when I asked about actually having the conversation with their older kids really articulated about the where and the how and the when and who's actually going to be there and how much do we say and there's the power of the pause so they have time to process and not over explain the whole thing.

Cheryl
00:48 - 01:24
And then one thing that I just love that she said is as much as we're talking about what's going to change, we can't forget to tell them what will not change. that we're a team, that we're your parents, that we love you forever and endlessly. And I really thought that that was such a special conversation. I'm sure we're going to have a sequel. But anyway, keep listening and listen. The statistics are so high, which means you know somebody going through a divorce or you're going through a divorce. These are the conversations we really need to get out there and share with our friends.

Cheryl
01:25 - 02:08
So they have a different view of what divorce can look like. This is what it could be, as opposed to, as Karen says, it doesn't need to be a dumpster fire. So anyway, keep listening. Welcome back to another episode of Parenting Teens Advice Redefined for Today's World. I'm your host, Cheryl Pankhurst, and today we are diving into one of the most emotionally charged and life-shaping experiences a family can go through, and that is divorce. My guest is Karen McNenney, a nationally recognized mediator, a divorce coach, and therapist for over 25 years experience helping families navigate this difficult transition.

Cheryl
02:09 - 02:51
She is the founder of The Good Divorce Experience and the host of The Good Divorce Show podcast, where she is changing the way we talk about and go through divorce. Karen is on a mission to help families, especially those with teens and younger adults, move through divorce with dignity, clarity, and compassion. From co-parenting and financial planning to relationship literacy, she brings a deep well of insight and real-life experience, including her own journey through divorce. You are going to walk away from this episode with practical tools and powerful perspectives to support your teens and young adults and yourself through one of life's hardest transitions.

Cheryl
02:51 - 02:54
Let's welcome Karen McNatty to the show.

Karen
02:54 - 02:58
Hello, Cheryl and listeners. Thank you so much for having me.

Cheryl
02:59 - 03:40
I am so happy to have you. We've done, um, the podcast has done a few different shows on divorce and co-parenting and different perspectives. And it's just such, I don't think, I feel like we could just do one whole show just on parenting, co-parenting divorce, because there are just so many layers to this. And, you know, we get caught up in the emotions and I think we forget, um, never intentionally, but we forget. what lens we need to be wearing when we are parenting through this. So Karen, let's talk about you first. I want to hear why you're doing what you're doing and how you got to where you are, because it's such a great story.

Karen
03:41 - 04:18
Well, thank you. I'll start at the end, which is I currently am launching, Michael and I, My Wusband. We have an 18 and a 20-year-old. And our daughter, who is 20, is headed into her junior year of college and headed off to Ireland for an international experience. And our son is graduating high school in just a moment, a blink of an eye from now in about six weeks and launching off to college. Those children were five and seven when we moved into two homes. So our family has gone from kindergarten to college. We've been through all the stages.

Karen
04:18 - 04:56
And let me say right off the bat, Right off the bat, as you move through adolescence and young adulthood with your children at 18 and high school graduation, that is not the finish line. It's just a different starting point. And as you well know, and that you are so gifted in guiding the families that you work with and here on the podcast, the work is not done. 18 to 25 is that final stage of adolescence. And in our young adult years, any of us can probably think back to what I refer to as the boomerang age.

Karen
04:56 - 05:45
They go out, they come back. They go out, they come back. And having stability still through their parents and that home and knowing, where's my stuff? Where do I come home for Christmas? Do I have to tell both parents? If I tell one of them, will they tell the other one? If we don't go into that young adult era with, if you will, some structure and history about how to navigate a two-household family, it can be really disorienting. And so we've had 15 years under our belt. And quite honestly, as I faced my own divorce and I was the lever, You know, we kind of arrive there together, but ultimately, one of us ends up saying it out loud first.

Karen
05:46 - 06:41
And often, the statistics will show that 70% of the time, it is the woman who will make the truth be told, the truth that's probably been sitting there. And our children were just starting school in their little itty-bitty youth, and it was hard to imagine. At the time that Michael and I were facing our own divorce, I had been working as a business consultant for a number of years and continued to do that until about five years ago, right during the pandemic, I discovered this work. around divorce coaching, consulting, co-parent counseling. And what I realized is that I've built the business that I was looking for 15 years ago when I faced my own divorce, which is not uncommon for those of us that are following an entrepreneurial path that we speak from what we know.

Karen
06:41 - 07:21
And when Michael and I made that decision, we, of course, like many people, we were in couples counseling at the time. trying to fight for the marriage, and when it became clear that our marriage was complete. And that's really the language that we used. We've hit our expiration date. And rather than linger on and let it get worse and expose our children to a home that was going to continue on a path of high conflict, it would be better to raise our children across two homes with two really happy, satisfied parents. At the time, the only thing that we were told was, get a lawyer and divide all your assets.

Karen
07:22 - 08:08
And there's just so much more to the process. And as much as we need the legal paperwork and documentation for divorce, what we really need is education about how to be divorced, not just how to get divorced. And that's what those lawyers are trained to do. in a system that is based on an adversarial relationship. And I recently heard a lawyer say, oh, family court? That's no place for a family. And I totally agree. But when we only have one tool in the toolbox and it looks like a weapon, that's what we pick up. So I have really set out here in the last five years to remind people that divorce is not a weapon.

Karen
08:08 - 08:35
It's a tool. And it's a tool that can be used to transform the family and renovate that relationship. That is forever. If you share children, your marriage might be ending, but not your relationship. So what can we do, those of us who work in the field, to guide families and protect their future, and in doing so, also protecting those kiddos?

Cheryl
08:35 - 08:48
Yeah, I love that. I quote you the first time we had a conversation when you said divorce does not have to be a dumpster fire. Yes. Think more about that.

Karen
08:49 - 09:27
Well, I think it's so interesting when we consider why divorce even exists currently. And in my opinion, it really is to relieve the pain and suffering that's existing within the marriage. And so why would we go do a thing that's just going to make it worse? If you want it to get worse, stay in your bad marriage, it'll probably get worse. If you want it to get really bad, hire a couple of sharky lawyers who care very little about your future, your kids, your transition schedule, the nuances of Christmas, who's going to hide the Easter eggs.

Karen
09:27 - 10:26
I mean, it goes on and on. And Lawyers are not incentivized in any way to create a short, efficient process for families. They are incentivized by something that carries on, sometimes for years. And again, I've recently heard a lawyer say, the bigger the battle, the bigger the bill. That works for me. Of course, Cheryl, this is not every attorney. And you're sitting in Canada. I'm sitting in Montana in the United States. There is a movement afoot of people who are wanting to pioneer a different pathway and not just leave families, as you said, in this dumpster fire of destruction that is only looking at dollars and not looking at the dignity of the family and the recognition that why would we want to destroy something, A, that came from love.

Karen
10:26 - 11:04
These children came from love. There is a love story. And just because the marriage is ending, that doesn't mean that you're disposing of the history of that love story. And this is a big paradigm shift. It's a very different way for us to start thinking about divorce as a tool, not a weapon, and as a process and a journey in which we can educate people on how to be great co-parents, how to navigate the Easter egg hunt, and the Thanksgiving meal, and the Christmas concert, and all of those moments that you're going to share with your kids that stretch from graduation to grandbabies and beyond.

Cheryl
11:06 - 11:52
And I love that and you know it's there's there's like different levels of co-parenting. You've got your young kids who you know you pretty much are in total control of their schedule and when they're going to go where and who they're going to be with and and then they get into you know that pre-teen and teen years where you know they start you know it's difficult enough to be a teenager but then add in this the divorce and the split and you know all those layers that go in there and then they you then you have to look at, once they get past that, there's still the 16, 17, 18, and older into young adults that are still very much a part of our world.

Cheryl
11:53 - 12:27
And so I'd like to say to start, if you're a parent and you're in that 16 to 25, 17 to 25, and you are in the middle of a dumpster fire, it's not too late. We can start from here. We can meet you where you're at. You can hear what. what Karen has to say and how we can kind of navigate through this, but it's not too late. And it's not, you know, even when kids are just teenagers and there's nothing else going on, I hear so many parents say, Oh my God, I can't wait till they're 18.

Cheryl
12:27 - 13:07
I can't wait till they get out of here. I can't wait. And it's like, no, no, no, no. This is when you build those, those lifelong solid relationships. But I'd love to know from you, What is that, what is the difference in that gap when we're talking about our kids from 16 to 25, going through even older, even 18 to 25, and you're in the middle of this? this medley of everything, and then you have these adults, they're pretty much adult kids. How does it affect them? What is the difference when you're talking about a young adult kid?

Karen
13:07 - 13:45
Yes, I think there's some mythology that you've pointed to, which is at 18, we're done. Not true, and we know biologically, and I'm sure you've addressed this on your show, 18 to 25, that frontal cortex, that executive function is still growing, forming, and coming fully on board. And we have a culture that has identified you can vote and go into the military at 18, and that's when we're gonna call you an adult. And in certain countries, you can have your beer illegally, you know, all these things, but it really is to 25. And so the mythology is that we're done.

Karen
13:46 - 14:23
And for those of you listening who might be thinking, I'm going to stay for the kids. I'm going to stay for the kids. We're just going to wait till they graduate. And once they graduate, then we can get divorced, and it'll all be better for everyone. And the danger in that, and I've had folks on The Good Divorce Show on my podcast, Adult Children of Divorce, talk about this. It can be exceedingly disorienting when you've lived in an intact family for your entire childhood, and then imagine you go off to college. And that rooted stability that you've counted on, you actually still need.

Karen
14:24 - 15:01
Whether you're a traditional student going off to college, or right to work, or maybe a gap year, it is the time of self-discovery and building autonomy. So what will happen is those kids will now be maybe floundering in their own world, but they also don't know where to turn for their familial stability. My parents are now divorced. Maybe they decided to sell the family home in that moment. Now they're living in new places. Maybe they don't even live in the same town. So when I have my first Christmas break from college or I'm in between jobs, where do I come home to?

Karen
15:01 - 15:31
And now I have to choose. I don't care what age you are, you do not want to ever be put in a position where you feel like you're choosing between your parents. I saw it with our own daughter who went to the dorm and she went to school here in Missoula, Montana at the University of Montana. first time her entire childhood, since she was in the first grade, that all of her stuff was in one place every day, and she slept in one bed for the

Speaker 3
15:31 - 15:32
entire year.

Karen
15:32 - 16:10
It was her dorm room. Wow. Isn't that a wild thought? So in year two, she decided that she would, all of us, save money, move back home. Well, now she is a 19 and into her 20th year, and still, she doesn't want to decide which house. She's like, I'm done going between homes. That's over, ladies and gentlemen. I will visit. I'll hang out. We'll have celebrations. Michael and I live six blocks apart. We have for the last 12 years. So we are very unified in that way. But she still, she turned to me and she said, how about you and dad just talk about it, and you just tell me where to bring my stuff?

Karen
16:12 - 16:55
She didn't want to be caught in it. And adults in their 30s and 40s, who parents maybe even divorce at that time, they'll say, I was surprised how sort of disorienting it was for me. I'm a grown Human, I've got my own house and kids, but suddenly that parental relationship really matters. So that would be my first comment, listeners, is don't underestimate the impact of divorce at any age. And part of the challenge is if you're not creating, as the adults and grown-ups, some decision-making about how holidays will be done, and where we'll be, and how things still get communicated.

Karen
16:55 - 17:01
If your children don't want to be the decider, the negotiator, the mediator, the communicator, right?

Speaker 3
17:02 - 17:02
Yes.

Karen
17:03 - 17:45
And they shouldn't have to be any of those things on behalf of their parents. The concern or the caution, I might even say, is that they'll turn away from both of you. And they'll just find a safe neutral zone where they don't have to be the mediator, negotiator, communicator, investigator. What's your mom? Did your dad? At any age, we don't want to put our children in that position. And that brings me to this other caution, which is they become young adults. Sometimes we take for granted their adulthood, and we might start talking to them in a fashion and about things that they still like, la, la, la, la, la.

Karen
17:45 - 18:31
I don't want to hear it. I don't want to know that. I don't know that thing that happened 10, 15, 20 years ago. I don't want to know your hard feelings towards my other parent because guess what, mom? Your relationship with my dad is different than my relationship with my dad. and they should be. So really thinking about where we place these young adults still in that triangle of the two parents and the child and trying not to triangulate and giving them guidance and coming to them and just saying, hey, Your dad and I talked, and this is how we think Christmas would feel special for all of us and together, and this is what we're proposing.

Karen
18:31 - 18:48
Does that work for you? At least they have something to respond to, not, I don't know, whatever you wanna do. I don't care. Whatever you wanna do for Christmas. It will paralyze them, potentially, and they'll just decide to go to their best friend's house for Christmas

Cheryl
18:48 - 18:48
and

Karen
18:48 - 18:51
avoid all the shenanigans and the drama.

Cheryl
18:52 - 19:44
Well, I know what has really been working well for us, and my kids are adults as well, is I send out a group chat to everybody, and I don't stick to a specific date. Oh, my birthday is November 24th, so what time do you come in November 24th? I don't do that. I just say, in the month of November. Can we all try and find an afternoon that we can get together and celebrate everybody's birthday from November or October whatever I don't I don't stick to that because I think you know even when. Even when my parents were together, and then when I got a boyfriend in high school, and then I got married, and I had a young family, there was already that navigating between, well, I really want my own Christmas morning, and I really want my own traditions, and I want to be with my family.

Cheryl
19:45 - 20:06
Now you say, well, you have to put that and then you have to figure out your dad's side of the family and your girlfriend's side of the family or your boyfriend's side of the family. Like you're just adding something else in there. And I think sometimes we forget what it is we're asking our kids to think about and consider when it comes to these sorts of things.

Karen
20:07 - 21:03
I just envision this Gumby doll, and everybody has an arm and a leg, and everyone's being pulled and stretched until finally it snaps. And I really appreciate the spirit, Cheryl, of the day doesn't have to be the date. December 25th. April 17th, March 4th. We have these days of anniversaries and birthdays and holidays that are dated on the calendar, but the celebration can happen at any time, truly. And even for families who are negotiating those schedules for teenagers under the age of 18 when the parenting plan is still intact. They can, I always want families to liberate their schedule and their parenting plan in the same way that if we were in an intact family, we'd get together and say, oh, grandma and grandpa are coming on this date, but it's cheaper to fly on the 24th.

Karen
21:03 - 21:48
So we're going to do Christmas with them on the 22nd, and maybe it's Hanukkah, and we've got blended families of religious traditions. And this idea of, hey, within this frame of time, can we identify a date? And keeping that open in the shared messaging. We have a shared family text thread for both children and both parents. And sometimes it's goofy photos, and sometimes it's a video because someone's missing an event, or it's a snow report for this local ski hill. It keeps us connected, and it also means that the kids, once again, don't have to be the go-between.

Karen
21:49 - 22:12
in trying to negotiate the dates for the parents. And when you take the lead, mom, and just say, here, we're all in the same conversation. You don't have to do it twice. We don't have to worry about things not getting, you know, things getting lost in translation. That is a beautiful gift to your young adult children.

Cheryl
22:13 - 22:49
I'd love to, as we talk about this age group, I'd love to get some guidance from you on How do we tell our kids? What does that conversation look like? And how do we, I know in divorce, that kids seem to take on the blame somehow, some way. They, for some reason, can take on the blame. So how do we have these conversations, even the initial conversation? What would you say to parents? Okay, if you're thinking about this, and your kid's 17 and your kid's 19, where do we start?

Karen
22:51 - 22:52
having

Cheryl
22:52 - 22:53
this conversation. Oh,

Karen
22:54 - 23:28
I have so much to say on this topic. And it really is an echo of my time as a business consultant when you are needing to communicate a significant change. And anytime we have big announcements, we usually first talk about, well, what are we going to say? When are we going to say it? Where are we going to say it? And so often in divorce, we consider, what are the words we're going to use? But I also want you to consider, what is the day of the week? What week of the month? What is the location?

Karen
23:29 - 24:15
What time of day? What are the events that are on the calendar immediately following the conversation or in the days to come? What kind of processing space do we have? So my ideal client are the two folks on a Sunday who decide, we're calling it quits. We're throwing in the towel. And on Monday morning, they call me and say, we've decided what's next, Karen. That's where I like to start with couples, because we do family before finances. And then the first thing is we need to tell our children tomorrow. I said, well, you don't have to tell them tomorrow, and you're probably not ready to tell them tomorrow, because they're going to have a bunch of questions that you don't have answers to yet, starting with, where are we all going to live?

Karen
24:15 - 24:47
What's happening with the family home? Is it being sold? Are we going to start transitioning? Like, oh yeah, we don't have any of those answers, but we need to tell them. We've decided. I said, you've been pretending for how long? months, years. So you're going to pretend a little bit longer, maybe another one to three weeks, until we get this sorted out. And sometimes longer, because there's bigger real estate decisions that need to be made. I was working with one family, and they lived in an area, and it was right after the pandemic when all the real estate was booming.

Karen
24:47 - 25:14
And they were there like, tell us what to tell our kids, Karen. And I said, you're not ready. What's going to happen with the family home? Oh, that's easy. We're going to sell it. and then buy two new homes. And they had a big home that would allow them to do that. And I said, OK, do you know what's going on in the real estate market in your community right now? Like, yeah, we know it's kind of hopping. That's probably good for us. I said, yeah, you're going to be rich and homeless in a weekend because your house is going to sell fast in a bidding war.

Cheryl
25:15 - 25:15
And then the

Karen
25:15 - 25:50
two of you are going to go out, and you're going to be competing against each other in the same school district for houses in the same size and same price range. So tap the brakes, and they went, oh. And this is the value of having a divorce consultant, a coach, somebody to guide you through that first step. So there's lots of considerations before we even get to the conversation. So now let's move into the conversation just a bit. And for those of you who are thinking, well, yes, I have a 16-year-old, but I also have a six-year-old.

Karen
25:52 - 26:35
That's probably two different conversations. And a lot of times, what we'll do is we'll do a cascading method. And again, thinking about in our business world, the executives make a decision. Then that cascades down to frontline leaders, which then cascades down to frontline employees, which then cascades down to your remote workers, right? We can think about this in the business of what we're leading. And parents, you are leaders in this process. So it might be that on a Saturday morning, the 17-year-old has the conversation with the parents. And then in the afternoon, you sit down with that younger child, and maybe all together at that point.

Karen
26:35 - 27:14
But it's age appropriate. And that 16-year-old is going to have a lot different conversation and questions than the 6-year-old. And this is not uncommon. to have these different age ranges. Sometimes it might even be I had one family who the siblings, they were close in age, but they were really spicy together. And we had one more dominant sibling who would just hijack every conversation, very emotionally volatile. And I went, oh my gosh, we have to tell them separate because our daughter is going to take over everything, have a huge drama. Emotions can be contagious.

Cheryl
27:16 - 27:16
Our

Karen
27:16 - 27:17
son's going to get caught up in that.

Cheryl
27:18 - 27:18
So we

Karen
27:18 - 27:53
need to start separate. I mean, we haven't even begun talking about the words yet, Cheryl, and we're still talking about what's the right structure. So that's the first thing we identify is who's in the room. Is it everyone together? Is it separate? What's age appropriate? Then it's A day of the week, week of the year, like, oh, I had a family. Again, these little nuggets that I'm reminded of. They were in the month of May. Their son was about to graduate. One family, one parent, like, well, we have to tell them. And the other was like, no, we're not going to tell them right before their high school graduation.

Karen
27:53 - 28:30
We are not going to eclipse that experience for that. They said, well, then, OK, I guess we'll just wait until we drop them off at college. We'll tell them like the week before they go to college. No, no, no. These are all bad ideas. So let's meet in the middle. And even then, that's when I put on my hat as a certified mediator to help them begin from the beginning. Let's think about your child's experience in this. It is an indelible moment. everyone is going to remember this conversation, where you were sitting, what was the weather, what was before.

Karen
28:31 - 28:41
So then if we figure out, OK, it's not right before graduation. It's not right before we drop you off at college. Good luck. The world as you knew it has now forever changed, and you'll never return

Cheryl
28:41 - 28:42
to this. We can do an address. I'll

Karen
28:42 - 28:55
let you know. Yep. Your mail will be forwarded. So let's presume we've now decided we've got two children. They're 15 and 18. We're going to sit down with them together.

Speaker 3
28:55 - 28:56
And

Karen
28:56 - 29:39
then we look at usually a weekend, right? We don't want to dump this when we don't have space for processing. And usually not right before bedtime for any of us. right? We need a little space in the day. So if there's a big event happening on a Saturday afternoon, or we've got a soccer game, somebody has a birthday party, well, then we're probably going to push it to Sunday. Because again, are we thinking about the moment before and the moment after? So we begin that whole conversation process with timing, location. I had a client whose son was on the spectrum.

Karen
29:40 - 30:23
It was really hard for them to sit still. It was hard for them to make eye contact. They're like, well, we got to sit down. This is an important discussion. I said, how do they best receive information? either on a walk or on a drive, right? So they don't have to face you. So we made accommodations for that. I don't know what's going to be right for you, listener, but these are the things I want you to take into consideration. Once you have a picture of time, place, location, presence, it's always my recommendation for you to do it together as parents so that the children see this is a unified decision.

Karen
30:23 - 31:06
And even if it was not, again, there's onstage and offstage with your kids. And your onstage script is different than the backstage script. And I'm sure there were lots of conversations behind the scenes about who, and when, and why, and you didn't, and you never. They're children. I don't care what their age is. They don't need it. There's nothing they can do with that information except feel crappy about it. Because their job is to love both of you. That's what's in the best interest of the child. So certainly when it comes to the script, if you will, and a lot of times the first conversation is 15 to 20 minutes.

Karen
31:07 - 31:24
It isn't always real long because even if you've been on the train of divorce for some time, you and your spouse have been talking about it, you've been in counseling, your kids maybe didn't even know they were in the train depot. Let

Cheryl
31:24 - 31:25
alone. So important.

Karen
31:26 - 32:03
Yep. Your train has left the station. They're getting on it for the first time. So one of the things in the scripting that I really want people to take into consideration is the power of the pause. And I might say to you, sweet Cheryl, my daughter, that we have hard news to share with you today, and it's that your dad and I have decided to dissolve our marriage. You've probably noticed it's been pretty spicy and grumpy between us. And this is not a decision that we've made easily or quickly, but we know that it is a big, big announcement.

Karen
32:05 - 32:06
And then you pause.

Speaker 3
32:06 - 32:07
Yeah.

Karen
32:07 - 32:47
longer than you think you should and longer than is comfortable, because that child is now taking all of what you just said and processing it. They might get up and leave the room. They might burst into tears. They might have 5,000 questions. They might just sit quietly. And then you pick up the ball and say, here's another detail that I should say a recommendation for your listeners about the conversation. Sometimes, and it's the same when I'm coaching executives at big companies, we put so much emphasis on what is changing, we forget to emphasize what's not changing.

Karen
32:48 - 33:32
Good, oh yeah, that's great. Because the what's not changing is where the comfort is. And we don't give false hope in this conversation, and we don't say things that we know we're not going to be able to stick to. And it's an ever-evolving process, these early days, weeks, and months of divorce. So what I can say is, we are your parent team. That's not changing. We love you endlessly. Not changing. We are going to be there celebrating every concert, sporting event, special moment in your life. Not changing. Are you kidding? We are your number one fans.

Karen
33:33 - 33:46
And we will still be the presidents. the co-presidents of that fan club. So that's a way to look at the what isn't changing and the reassurance around the love of the parents and the parent team.

Cheryl
33:46 - 33:58
I love that. I just, that's so important. I wish I had have known you 18 years ago. Yeah, that's really, I love that.

Karen
33:59 - 34:40
And you identify this element where kids can take it on themselves. So it is important to say, this has nothing to do with you kids. You are the treasure and the joy in our life. But this relationship, as you know, and I think you can name it, and if they're young kids, like, Dad and I have been really grumpy with each other. You probably have heard us bickering. Oh, yeah, sometimes it scares me, right? because we don't want to gaslight our kids. That's another important tool in this conversation. If we oversell, it's fine, it's good, no problem.

Karen
34:41 - 35:13
Oh, don't be sad, go stop that crying. You don't need to cry. All bullshit on that. We need to feel all the feelings. even if they don't align with our own, our children cannot go through a world of this thinking, why is everyone telling me this is just fine and I shouldn't be sad, but I feel really sad. I must be wrong. It's that well-intended gaslighting that does not serve them.

Cheryl
35:14 - 35:52
No, no. And as I'm thinking of all these questions, I'm thinking, I think we're going to need a sequel. But I do want to talk about how can, so we've had the conversation. And I'm sure you're going to have the conversation multiple times. I love the power of pause. And I love in any difficult conversation, I think we tend to, even with anything, with kids in trouble at school, or I think we tend to like over explain things. And they don't need that information. What they're going to need, they're going to ask you. So give them that time.

Cheryl
35:52 - 36:38
And then there's no point in giving them eight pages of this essay that they have no interest in, but they have other questions. So if you allow them that space and time, I think that's really important. But I also want to say, when we are co-parenting with our older kids, Not every kid gets along with every single parent every single day. So I'm wondering, do you have a way to support how a co-parent can support the relationship with the co-parent and the team. So Mikey is not getting along with dad and he's coming home and complaining about dad or there's different rules.

Cheryl
36:38 - 36:47
Like how do we navigate that with our kids at that age where there's like this independence, but then there's not, you know?

Karen
36:48 - 37:28
Oh my gosh, you are tapping into something so relevant and important. I think of it as the rubber band period of life. These kids are pulling away. I've got it. Leave me alone. I don't micromanage. Don't you think I can do anything? Snap. I need $20 in keys to the car. Do you know where my socks are? And this is what we do, In-N-Out, In-N-Out. And as our children moved through that tween into teen era, and Michael and I, we were humming along pretty good. We had five, six years under our belt, and suddenly, Our daughter in particular was getting very spicy and prickly, and she's the older one.

Karen
37:28 - 38:11
They're only 18 months apart, so they really moved through this together. And as she was pushing against us, we started to tell ourselves a story that the co-parent was turning the child against us, that there was this parent alienation, or you were talking poorly, or they, and we committed, this is, I hadn't even remembered this until now, we went back into couples counseling with someone we had never worked with, someone like yourself, who was great with teenagers, and we were in a new era of our co-parenting and we needed a third party. We had four sessions, that's all.

Karen
38:12 - 39:04
Four sessions with a therapist who helped us realize you're not the enemy to each other, you have a common enemy, it's your teenager. Bingo. And what we realized, and you know this as an expert in these teen years, is that we had to double down on our unification because they will play you. They'll play you when you're in one household, let alone two. And our kids, they have known from the beginning, if there is something going down that is elevated to the level, whether that's a consequence in a house, something happened at school, big celebration or big challenge, you know I'm going to be on the phone with your dad.

Karen
39:06 - 39:42
And if it's a sit-down conversation, we're both going to be in that living room together. And there's never been any question about it. And recently, I won't give it. It's my daughter's story to tell. But I was out of town, and she was in my home, dog sitting, house sitting here alone. But we're just having a period of overwhelm with college and deadlines. and just panicking and challenging. And she was calling me and texting me and then hanging up on me and all the big feelings. I'm out of town. What do I do? I immediately send a message to her dad.

Karen
39:42 - 40:24
Hey, are you in town home? Can you go over to my house? And just the back door is always open. Please go check in with our daughter. She gets a message from dad. Hey, I'm headed over to, she sends a message to me. I don't appreciate getting ganged up by you too. Oh, well. Independent. And I'm like, what else am I going to do? Of course, I'm going to be in conversation with your dad. We are your parent team. That is not changing. So thinking about how we support the other parent while we have these teenagers is to actually draw them closer.

Karen
40:25 - 41:16
And I'm not saying, Michael and I don't go bowling together and have picnics in the park. We are friendly. We're not friends. Yeah. But we're really friendly. And we don't ever bring the challenges that we're having to the forefront to anyone in our community. It's just awkward and obnoxious and unnecessary. Again, nobody can fix those things except us. And so we realized, oh, it's not me turning daughter against you and you turning son against me and this parent alienation story. It's our kids doing precisely exactly what they're supposed to be doing at this age, which is to challenge every boundary, chew you up and spit you out so that they can emancipate themselves, become independent, autonomous,

Cheryl
41:16 - 41:16
and

Karen
41:16 - 41:37
then come back. And moving from the parent-child relationship to the adult-adult relationship. My mom raised five children. I'm the last of the five, and I talked to her about this. She said, oh, it's just such a terrible period of time. I just wish you could all skip it. You turn out nice in the end anyway.

Cheryl
41:38 - 42:12
Yeah, well, I think, too, a really good thing to remember is if you if this starts and you are on the good side, please remember you won't stay that way. So keep that in mind. Well, if this tables were turned and they were playing me and like, how would I want my co-parent to behave, to act, to talk. How would I want that support to look like? It will turn around. I promise. They're not on your side forever. I swear to God.

Karen
42:12 - 42:53
And honestly, they need both of us. And for those of you listening who are in one household, I can absolutely have a prediction that one of you is really great around academics. One of you is really great around activity. One of you is great in organization. One of you is wonderful at making sure that all the paperwork is done that the school needs, or making the appointments. There's so many roles that are played. And when we're in one home, we see that as a compliment. But when we move into two homes, and we're like, why aren't they doing such and such and such and such?

Karen
42:54 - 43:30
I'm still having to make all the appointments for the doctors and I'm having to check all the paperwork for the school. And you're right, we martyr ourselves and we victim ourselves of a very exhausting, dull story. But we keep repeating it. And I was coaching a client recently as they were ranting about their now former spouse. And I said, does any of this surprise you? Oh no, this is how they've always been. I'm like, well, your former spouse and your spouse, they're the same person. And there are certain dynamics in your relationship that are absolutely going to repeat themselves.

Karen
43:31 - 44:11
And I know for me, it was a real growth edge of moving from a story of disappointment, not enough, why don't they, and realizing Michael has parenting gifts that I don't have. And I have parenting gifts that he doesn't have. And recently, we stood in a parking lot outside a baseball game and just gave each other a little nice work. Thanks for taking care of that. And then the reciprocal, oh, yeah, and you always step in and take care of such and such, and I appreciate that. Those kind of moments between former spouses will just melt you golden.

Karen
44:12 - 44:28
golden, and you can be the first to speak it, because I will reiterate, behavior is contagious. So when you bring a spirit of generosity and grace, that is more likely to be reciprocated

Cheryl
44:30 - 45:12
Yeah, and your kids are always there, not very often listening to you, but they're always watching you, right? Up until 25 and over, they are always watching. So, you know, I think even, I think by the time my daughter hit 25, one day she said, yeah, she said, I really appreciated that you never spoke badly about dad in front of us. And that was, 11 years later. So they are watching, and you will get that reward at some point in time, but they are always watching. So keeping that in mind at all times. Karen, this has been, oh my goodness, I feel like, honestly, I think we need a sequel.

Cheryl
45:12 - 45:51
But before we wrap up, and I love, I love the whole Pre-conversation thoughts and I love the what's not gonna change. I think that's just so important It's just golden. You're really this whole conversation feels a little revolutionary Like I love how you're changing things and you know people need to hear this and share this Because we it's what what's the divorce rate 50% now, so Yes. So you know somebody, whether it's your right neighbor, your left neighbor, or your aunt, somebody's getting divorced. So this is something to definitely share. But tell us, Karen, how can we work with you?

Cheryl
45:51 - 45:53
How can we find you? Tell us all the good things, Karen. Oh,

Karen
45:54 - 46:31
well, and thank you again for this platform and opportunity to speak to the hearts of your listeners. I am The Good Divorce Coach. And if you just Google The Good Divorce, because actually that is one of the choices, You'll find me, thegooddivorcecoach.com, The Good Divorce Shows, the podcast I release every other week now in 2025. I'm in my third season. And the exciting thing I want to highlight about the podcast, Cheryl and your husband came on the show, and that will be aired in 2025, is 50% of my guests are people who have walked the walk.

Karen
46:31 - 47:16
It's not just the lawyers and the financial advisors, and tax accountants, and the people telling you how to get divorced. It is people reflecting how they live divorced, how they've done it well. You can tune in and listen to the family who had a divorce party, a celebration. You can listen to the couple. I had a mother and a daughter 40 years after that first conversation. She was 49. when she sat down with her 65-year-old mom, 69-year-old mom, and dad had passed, and they talked about the whole journey. And daughter, who's now a mother herself, again, was able to say, thank you for these things.

Karen
47:17 - 47:57
I recently had a woman, 48, whose parents did not do a great job. And she brought her story as a cautionary tale. She's like, hey, This happened when I was 12, and I'm 48 and still trying to unravel the mess of it. So please don't do that. And happy to announce that in May of 2026, my book will also come out, which is one part memoir of my good enough divorce and what I have learned in these 15 years and also working with families. And on my website, there is a button there that says, Talk with Karen, work with Karen.

Karen
47:57 - 48:31
I always say a conversation is not a commitment. And the first hour is always free with me. You can schedule, write from my website, fill out a short form that just tells me who you are. Maybe you're just in the whisper of divorce. You're just thinking it deep in your heart. This is a safe place to have a conversation with someone to just go, what if? Just because we're talking about divorce doesn't mean it's going to happen. But honestly, we don't talk about it enough, and we often stay too long. And that's when damage really gets to be done.

Karen
48:31 - 48:39
And maybe you're already down the road and some damage has been done. It's never too late to have a good divorce. Yeah.

Cheryl
48:40 - 49:05
I love that, and everything will be in the show notes. Karen, I don't know how to thank you. There was like 8,000 golden nuggets that you dropped there, but really tactical, practical advice for parents going through this, or again, thinking of going through this, and again, have gone through it, are in the middle of the dumpster fire, but now can back paddle and do some repair. So I thank you so very much for being my guest, and I'm sure we're gonna do this again.

Karen
49:06 - 49:06
My pleasure.

Cheryl
49:07 - 49:56
Thank you again for listening to Parenting Teens Advice Redefined, and we will see you next time. Thank you for listening to another episode. I hope you loved this one as much as I did. And I just wanted to share something with you because, you know, Parenting Teens is not just about managing these challenges that we talk about on all the episodes. It's also about evolving alongside them. And I'm Cheryl, and not only the host of this podcast, but I'm also the creator of Insight to Impact, coaching and consulting. And I help you moms of teens reconnect with your true selves so you can lead with purpose, you can parent with clarity, you can create stronger, more meaningful relationships with your kids.

Cheryl
49:57 - 50:31
Because here's the truth. The transformation starts with you. Together, we will break free from the stress and overwhelm. We will rediscover your power. We will create the life and the family dynamic you always dreamed of. If you're ready to start this journey, let's do it. You might just not recognize your life in the next 90 days. It all starts with a call. There's no pitch. There's no pressure, just a call to see if I can help. We'll talk about your goals. We'll talk about what's making you feel stuck and what might be getting in your way.

Cheryl
50:31 - 50:48
And everything you need to connect with me is in the show notes. Again, I'm Cheryl. Thank you so much for joining me here on Parenting Teens, advice redefined for today's complex world and the creator of Insight to Impact Coaching and Consulting. Have a great day.