~118 "How to Co‑Parent with an Abusive Ex: What Every Parent of a Teen Needs to Know" With Sybil Cummins

#co‑parent #abusiveex #teen #domesticviolence #family court

In this raw, un‑filtered conversation, host Cheryl sits down with Sybil Cummins, L.P.C., survivor‑advocate, founder of Rising Beyond Power & Control, and host of the Rising Beyond podcast. Together they unpack the hidden trauma of moral injury that parents feel when court orders force them to send their teen children to an abusive ex‑partner.

You’ll learn:

• What moral injury is and why it feels like a “soul wound.”
• How to recognize covert/coercive abuse before it’s “obvious.”
• Concrete safety‑planning steps—legal, financial, and emotional—whether you’re in immediate danger or planning a future exit.
• Proven tactics for documenting and presenting evidence in family court without “legal jargon.”
• How to create felt safety for you and your teen, and how to talk to teens about a dangerous co‑parent without alienating them.
• Daily nervous‑system regulation practices that turn freeze/fight‑or‑flight into calm, productive action.
• The power of community support—why joining a survivor network can shorten the healing timeline.

If you’re a parent of a teenager feeling trapped, guilty, or exhausted by the constant back‑and‑forth of a hostile custody schedule, this episode gives you the roadmap to protect yourself, protect your teen, and begin to heal the invisible wound that court‑mandated co‑parenting can create.

00:01 - 00:54
Welcome to another episode of Parenting Teens Advice, redefined for today's complex world, where we have the real, raw, and honest conversations to help new parents support your teens in any challenges you might be experiencing. And today's guest is Sybil Cummins, a licensed professional counselor, a powerful advocate for survivors of coercive control and domestic violence, including the most vulnerable, our kids. For over a decade, Sybil has worked at the intersection of trauma and safety and family court systems. And after witnessing how deeply survivors are re-traumatized by those custody battles and broken legal processes, she created Rising Beyond Power and Control, a community dedicated to supporting women who've escaped abuse but still have to share custody with their abuser.

Speaker 1
00:54 - 01:08
Sybil also hosts the Rising Beyond podcast and is actively involved in legislative reform in Colorado to protect children and survivors. Welcome, Sybil. Thank you. I was like, oh, that's like such a lovely bio.

Speaker 1
01:08 - 01:17
Thank you. Well deserved, my friend. Well deserved. You know, I'm really excited about an episode.

Speaker 1
01:17 - 01:33
It's hard to say when it's a hard topic. However, I'm looking forward to even one person saying, oh my god, that's me. Oh my god, I can feel that. And I've done multiple episodes on divorce and co-parenting.

Speaker 1
01:34 - 02:33
Because of personal experience and I and you know, we cover a myriad of topics, but today I feel like is very targeted very laser focused and And and so important because I must be a re-traumatized every single time you dropped your kids off. And I say that because when I was leaving and thinking of leaving my kid's dad years and years ago, I probably stayed many years longer and he by no means is an abusive father at all. But I was relinquishing control of parenting for so many days of the week. and to think that my kids were not under my roof and under my control, loosely my control, but my control, really sent me into a deep, dark hole many times.

Speaker 1
02:34 - 03:13
And so to think that Moms are or parents are Having to do the same thing every other weekend and on Wednesdays, but knowing that That dad or mom is an abuser in one way or another must be just like ripping your heart out five times a week yeah, yeah, and it like the weight that you carry because you, right, there's this idea that you left, right? And that that was the best thing. And for most cases, it is the best thing still.

Speaker 1
03:14 - 03:29
But you left to prevent abuse, prevent your kids seeing it, to prevent them experiencing it. And then the courts are like, actually, you still have to send your kids there. And now you're no longer a buffer. You're no longer the one taking the abuse.

Speaker 1
03:29 - 03:41
Yeah. what will happen. And you know, so when you talk about, let's just dive in, can we talk about what is moral injury? Yeah.

Speaker 1
03:42 - 04:05
And how does it show up in moms who have escaped abuse, but still have to co-parent? Let's set the stage for parents who are listening to this. Yeah, so moral injury is not a very well-known term, even for mental health professionals. It was, it's really been researched and shown in military families and the military population.

Speaker 1
04:05 - 04:34
One, because they're like, easier to research cause they're, the government has them. But then also they have really interesting experiences and unique experiences. So initially came out there, but basically what it is is when you as a human make decisions or have to make decisions. So you're forced because someone in authority to make decisions that go completely against your value system or your moral code.

Speaker 1
04:35 - 05:25
And so parents in these situations specifically, maybe their number one value is safety and health of their child or family or whatever it might be. And so they are then court ordered to either send their kids to this home they know is abusive or they choose to withhold the kids and not bring them to the abuser's home But then the likelihood that they will be held in contempt and then the custody will completely shift and the abusive parent will gain full custody of the kids is very likely. So you're in this situation where there isn't an okay choice.

Speaker 1
05:25 - 05:53
You're forced to make a choice. So what do you choose? And so here, you know, the majority of time people choose to send their kids, follow the court order, knowing you may have just put your child in harm. And so the injury you, you feel, one of my therapists who actually is doing research on moral injury right now, um, specifically within, uh, families where there's been domestic violence, she calls it a soul wound.

Speaker 1
05:54 - 06:08
So, right. So it is, it hits at the very, inside of your core. And it's different than like post-traumatic stress disorder. It doesn't have the same physical components of PTSD.

Speaker 1
06:09 - 06:35
And the levels of shame, the levels of depression, the helplessness that you feel are so heavy. And when I'm talking about, you know, with a survivor, we talk a lot about self-forgiveness. And when moral injury shows up, it feels nearly impossible to forgive this self because you are completely going against your moral compass. Yeah.

Speaker 1
06:36 - 07:06
I almost want to go in a linear step here. So we have a parent sitting in an abusive relationship knowing they are unsafe, knowing with every fiber of their being, they have to leave. but they are sitting in that tandem where, Oh, if I go, there's this, if I don't, there's this, what would you say to them? If you could go backwards and say, okay, this is where we start.

Speaker 1
07:06 - 07:47
What would you say to them in that decision-making process? And are there really specific steps and a process they can take to make it As safe as possible Yeah, yeah, I think the the first step really is like that knowledge right knowledge is power. It's very cliche, but so very true um when someone first hears the term like gaslighting And they understand they hear what it is. It's like That's my experience when someone hears the terms like coercive control or a lot of people use the term narcissistic abuse, which is um I don't know, a term that some therapists like and some don't.

Speaker 1
07:47 - 08:01
I don't actually care. It's just a word, right? But when they hear these terms and they're like, oh my gosh, that's me. Because so many of the women and men that I work with, because I work in my practice with men as well.

Speaker 1
08:01 - 08:27
The community is specific for women. We work with men. They, a lot of the times, have no idea that they're actually being abused because they've never been hit. And so this belief, you know, and all the myths and misconceptions of what domestic violence is, are causing people to not be able to pinpoint what's going on, right?

Speaker 1
08:27 - 08:44
Like, I don't look like this low income, you know, five or six kids, blue collar husband who comes home, drinks a beer and hits me. Right? Like that is actually not like, are there cases where that's what domestic violence looks like? Sure.

Speaker 1
08:44 - 09:24
Yes. But no, domestic violence doesn't discriminate based on any of those things. So not socioeconomics, not education, not nothing like race, gender, domestic violence is present, but because it doesn't look how people think it's going to look very often, they have no idea that they are actually experiencing abuse. So the first part is when something feels really off and you are fearful of little things and you Organize your entire day for safety.

Speaker 1
09:24 - 09:43
You're organizing your day like, oh gosh, I need to make sure that the dishes are this way or that this is this way. Or you are able to compute. This is not conscious, but you're unconsciously able to compute. My partner came home and they threw the mail on the table a specific way.

Speaker 1
09:44 - 10:04
And your brain is like, beep, beep, beep, beep. And you know exactly what you need to do to stay safer that evening. you are likely in an abusive relationship. So it's that understanding like, yes, this is abuse, even if you are not being physically harmed.

Speaker 1
10:05 - 10:25
And so that, like that learning and understanding and what, like, why do I doubt myself? Like I used to be this really confident, person who knew who I was and now I have no idea who I am. I doubt every decision. I am scared of things that I would not have been scared of.

Speaker 1
10:25 - 10:45
My goal is to keep my children behaving in quiet so that there's no family conflict. I don't get to parent the ways I want to parent. And so when you start noticing those kinds of things and, and learning, that is usually the first step. The caveat to that is you can go down a rabbit hole.

Speaker 1
10:46 - 11:08
Oh my gosh. If you type in, is my partner a narcissist? First of all, if you're typing that in and do like Google, high likelihood that there's a level of abuse there, if you're typing that in. But it is a rabbit hole of information.

Speaker 1
11:08 - 11:29
A lot of it great, a lot of it not great. And then also there's a scare factor. So kind of what we were talking about before is if you're following people, you start going down that rabbit hole and you start looking at what is the family court process look like. It will scare the, I don't know if you can say bad words on here.

Speaker 1
11:30 - 11:41
It will scare cause like a sailor. So I just wanted to, it's all good. Okay. It'll scare the shit out of you because you're like, Oh my gosh, abusers get custody of children all the time.

Speaker 1
11:41 - 11:57
If I bring up domestic violence in family court, it is more likely I'm going to lose my kid. And then there's been threats from your partner that if you leave me, I will tell everyone you're an unstable parent. You're mentally unstable. I will take the kids.

Speaker 1
11:57 - 12:11
So if you've had those threats, you're doing your research online and you're seeing all the Tik Toks and all the things about family court and you're like, Oh God, I'm not leaving. Yeah. Yeah. So there are things you can do to more safely leave.

Speaker 1
12:11 - 12:30
So one is, you know, kind of that. And if, if you're in physical danger, you're going to have a go bag, you're going to safety plan. You're going to go to, an advocacy center in your area, a domestic violence advocacy center. If you are not in physical danger, you can still plan, right?

Speaker 1
12:31 - 12:46
And financially plan as much as you can. Financial abuse is a real thing. Learn as much as you can, consult with attorneys. If you have the means to hire an attorney, find a therapist.

Speaker 1
12:46 - 13:20
If you can get your kids into therapy before you leave, So much better because then there is not the same issues with getting consent for mental health services. So if you, if you're there and you're like, Oh dear Lord, trying to get my kid in therapy has been a nightmare because we, if there's joint decision-making, we can't see them unless we have consent from both parents. Yeah. What's one way they can control you?

Speaker 1
13:20 - 13:26
Not providing consent. Yeah. Good point. That's really good.

Speaker 1
13:27 - 13:32
Yes. If you can get your kids in therapy before. Awesome. Great.

Speaker 1
13:32 - 14:11
Because then it is harder to withdraw them from services than to you know, them just to decide, like, no, I'm not signing consent for services. So there can be a number of kind of that planning beforehand. And then this is just from what I've seen in my experience that, you know, for what, since 2011, I've had my own practice, but I've been working with survivors before then. survivors who have a safe inner circle of support heal years faster than those who don't.

Speaker 1
14:13 - 15:03
And because isolation is one of the key components of coercive control and domestic violence, it is probably realistic that you might feel really alone, that you don't actually have, you have like joint friends with your partner, but you don't have friends, or you've been isolated from your family, or maybe you have generational patterns of abuse in your family, and so they're not really safe. So finding some means of connection with others will very much help you in this process. You know, I wonder too, when you say, you know, get therapy if you can, because I'm wondering, you know, when we are in a, and if I'm wrong, correct me, but if we're in this situation, living in this situation, but we are always in fight or flight, always

Speaker 1
15:03 - 15:48
in fight or flight, that becomes the norm. You don't know what it's like to like, be able to like Get into that rest and digest so you can process what's happening. But if you are always on high alert Is there a way for us to explain not us for you to explain the parents? how would you recognize that and and for my experience and again, no abuse just the leaving and It was more for me as I recognized when I was so different in every other aspect of my life, but that under the roof, I was a different person.

Speaker 1
15:48 - 16:13
So I spent 25 years advocating for kids with special needs and I was like mouthy and no filter. And I stood up and I spoke for everybody and I didn't care who I was talking to. I did it because I wanted this kid to be safe and learn and, but then, I would get under my own roof and I would find myself not standing up for myself, not saying, well, what the hell? What does that mean?

Speaker 1
16:13 - 16:33
And why are you talking like that? And I would just like shut down and just be a good girl. But I was able to see, I started to recognize a difference of who I was. What can we say to parents who like, help them recognize you are in fight or flight 101% of the time, so you're not recognizing that.

Speaker 1
16:33 - 17:06
How do we help them there? Yeah, I think one of the things that, and it's an interesting concept because people who don't understand the nuance, if you are in it, you will understand the nuance. When your partner goes like radio silent, if that makes you more scared, Right, like even if you've left your partner you've left them you're co-parenting air quotes that because that's not Really? Yeah real when you're with another ex-partner, but right.

Speaker 1
17:06 - 17:27
Yeah And when they go silent, like there's not messages. There's not emails And you are like your heart just stops because that feels scarier It is likely you are in fight or flight all the time. Oh because your nervous system is wired for survival. That's what our nervous systems do, right?

Speaker 1
17:27 - 17:57
It keeps us safe. When you're with an abusive someone, it could be a parent, it could be your partner, your nervous system relies on the input from your environment, from the relationships you're with to make decisions. And so if all of a sudden that input is gone, That can be the scariest thing. That can be so scary.

Speaker 1
17:58 - 18:10
And so your nervous system is like, oh my gosh, I don't have any input to make decisions. I don't have, I don't know. So you feel like less safe. And so people on the outside that don't get it are like, oh gosh, doesn't that feel so great?

Speaker 1
18:10 - 18:32
Like he's leaving you alone or she's not messaging you over and over. Oh, you must feel so much relief. And you're like, Oh my gosh, I am in the bathroom every five seconds because my tummy is so like so upset, right? If you're having stomach problems, sleep problems, can't eat or overeat.

Speaker 1
18:32 - 19:06
So a lot of the things that you're noticing are those, those actual physical symptoms of you're not being able to be in that relaxed and rest state. And I think when you were talking about your experience of being being an advocate versus being home, the goal, even if you're in it, is to find moments, and this I talk about with kids a lot, is find moments of felt safety. And so felt safety, you could be safe. You could get an email from your partner, your ex-partner.

Speaker 1
19:07 - 19:18
That email is not going to, it's not a lion, it's not gonna eat you, but your nervous system doesn't know that. That's right. Doesn't know that. It's like danger, danger, danger, lion attacking, gonna freeze.

Speaker 1
19:20 - 20:05
And so the more you can find moments of felt safety, which means your external cues feel safe, your internal body cues feel safe, but then in my opinion, the most important one, the relational, so the in-between feel safe too. So you may, if you have a therapist, you have a coach, you have a safe family or friend, it may be that that's the only time you feel safe. because the more times it is safe for you to feel safe, your nervous system will kind of go back into a more connected state. And you will then kind of like you were saying, be able to see like, wow, does this feel different?

Speaker 1
20:07 - 20:29
And so finding those opportunities where there is some felt safety is really important. And as we're talking about, how do you help your kids and teens? giving them a place where there is felt safety is one of the most important things you can do for their resilience, for their healing. Yeah, that makes so much sense.

Speaker 1
20:30 - 20:56
And when you talked about coercive abuse and, you know, visible abuse. So if someone is sitting at home saying, well, I don't have a black eye, but I know now I'm very aware that this is abusive. Is there, you know, can we give them hope that yes, you can get to court, we can actually prove coercive abuse? Can we?

Speaker 1
20:58 - 21:18
Yes, Anne. Okay. So, there are different, like, every state, every county, every judge will be different. So that is where there's just this constant, and it's actually a part of how abusers work too.

Speaker 1
21:18 - 21:35
So our system kind of supports abuse to continue in a lot of ways. So something that I talk about a lot within abusive relationships is the goalpost is always changing, right? So they're saying like, this is what is expected and what's going to make me happy. And you're like, yes, and you do the thing.

Speaker 1
21:35 - 21:40
And they're like, that's not actually what makes me happy. This makes me happy. And this makes me happy. And this makes me happy.

Speaker 1
21:41 - 22:04
The same thing happens in family court a lot of times, depending on who's overseeing your case, what attorney you have, what county you're in. Did the judges just switch? Now you have a newbie judge who's never been on the stand for family court. There are also only a couple of states where coercive control is in the law.

Speaker 1
22:04 - 22:25
So in most states, it's not illegal at all. And even in, I think, Hawaii and Connecticut, I might be wrong on that. That's where it is like illegal. So, and in a handful, right?

Speaker 1
22:25 - 22:42
You're like, what the heck? A handful of states, Colorado is one of them, coercive control has been added to family court law. However, It is recent. And so are judges fully following the law?

Speaker 1
22:42 - 22:57
No, no, not always. So, right. So yes. And I would say that the number one tips and if you have an attorney and you're like, there's been domestic violence and coercive control and they have this huge reaction of like, well, we're not bringing that up.

Speaker 1
22:58 - 23:32
in family court, a lot of times it is because the language is like the kiss of death is what a lot of attorneys call it in court. And so what I kind of coach, and I'm not an attorney, so I'm not giving legal advice, but what I've seen be really helpful, as opposed to using any labels at all, when you are talking with legal professionals, is you're sharing observations. That's good. So when it's time for visits, my kids run and hide under the bed.

Speaker 1
23:33 - 23:49
Or my teen is truant when they're with their other parent. Or their grades are plummeting. This is the homework. We have the parent portal where we can look at homework and all of that.

Speaker 1
23:49 - 24:11
It's like, look. So when they're in my home, this is what's getting done. Where in their other home, nothing's getting done. or things like that where you're showing observations, facts, like specific things that are happening to show the patterns versus saying my ex is a narcissist.

Speaker 1
24:12 - 24:34
There was domestic violence. Oh my gosh, do I wish that we could just say those things and judges would understand and there's all the research in the world where an abusive parent is, I wanna say it's 70, percent more likely to abuse a child if they've abused the parent. So like we know these things that they are not safe. Yeah.

Speaker 1
24:35 - 24:44
But that just isn't translating into the family court arena. And so if you're showing up, you've got good documentation. So it sucks. But yes, document things.

Speaker 1
24:44 - 24:58
Yes. Screenshots. And things that have timestamps so they can't be altered. It's not just your, oh, this is just something, it's not your journal.

Speaker 1
25:00 - 25:21
And if you're going to start journaling about this specifically, it's going to be separate in a separate journal because if you want to go into court and be like, look, no, three years ago, he has been saying these things for X number of years. Your entire journal can then be, brought in evidence. Oh, okay. Good point.

Speaker 1
25:22 - 25:29
Thank you. So if you ever said like, I don't think I can live anymore. I can't live like this. I just wish this was over.

Speaker 1
25:30 - 25:43
And that journal is brought into court. They're like, see, she's emotionally unstable. And I know this from experience of clients where this has happened. That's so good.

Speaker 1
25:43 - 25:51
I'm just going to create a little moment of silence so people understand how important that information is. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1
25:51 - 26:08
Wow. So document and it's not you, right? It's not your just handwritten notes better than nothing because you can give a timeline to your attorney and things, but you're not going to ever use that as evidence. Yeah.

Speaker 1
26:09 - 26:31
And can I say, turn it all into a PDF, please, so they can't change anything, instead of using Google Docs. Yes. And it is OK to have hyperlinks to things and evidence, because you show up to an evaluation, a court evaluator, a custody evaluator. And you're like, here is 900 pages of talking parents' messages.

Speaker 1
26:33 - 26:36
which is a co-parenting app. Yeah. They're not going to read that. No.

Speaker 1
26:36 - 26:49
They're going to be so overwhelmed by you. They're not going to know what to pull out. They're not like being able to pull out what is relevant for them is really. really important.

Speaker 1
26:50 - 26:57
And can I say less costly? Oh my, yes. Oh my goodness. Right.

Speaker 1
26:57 - 27:19
20 pages of something to read. You are like ching, ching, ching, ching. But if you send, yeah, highlight those points because that is a really, I didn't realize until recently, like every email and every voicemail, every, Oh, everything. So it's like, When you, there's some amazing attorneys out there.

Speaker 1
27:19 - 27:39
There are some not amazing attorneys that they're going to take advantage of you. So choosing attorneys is actually really important, but they, no matter who your attorney is, they are not your therapist. No, they are way more expansive than a therapist or a coach is ever going to be. So if you need emotional support, that's not your person.

Speaker 1
27:41 - 27:53
you're gonna have a person outside because otherwise that's like 400 bucks an hour. Yes, more gold people. That's more gold. And they don't even, they're not trained in this either.

Speaker 1
27:55 - 28:04
And it's not that they don't care, but they don't care because it's not their position. Right. Right. All right.

Speaker 1
28:04 - 28:32
So let's, let's talk about, first of all, the kids, like what, what are the psychological impacts even on, I'm going to say teens, cause that's mainly the audience who are forced into this shared custody with an abusive or manipulative parent. Like what, What do we have to watch out for in our kids when we're doing this? Yeah, so teens are really tricky. So some of it kind of depends on, like, how long have they experienced this?

Speaker 1
28:33 - 29:14
But if we look at, too, like, what is the goal of teens, right, and in their development, it is to go out into the world and figure out who they are, find themselves, become autonomous, have some agency. If there's a parent who parents with coercive control, they will not be allowed to be themselves because they need to be who that parent needs them to be. And that's for safety. You will see very often high levels of people pleasing or fawning behavior because that's safer.

Speaker 1
29:14 - 29:45
This may even mean, and this is one of the most horrifying aspects of this, especially for parents of teens, is your child might start to align with that abusive parent because it is safer for them to align with that parent. And to, and to look loyal. Yes. And so if it feels like your child's been brainwashed against you, or the goal of your ex is to sever and harm that relationship with your child.

Speaker 1
29:46 - 30:02
That's probably true. That is probably their goal because if you've left now, they only have your child, they have finances, but they have a limited number of ways to control you and harm you. And this is the big one. And so that's really difficult.

Speaker 1
30:02 - 30:16
They may align because It may be that all the love has strings attached. So if you tell the evaluator you want to live here, then you'll get your car. You'll get the car. I'll pay for your college.

Speaker 1
30:17 - 30:45
I don't have rules. You can do all the things here. And so that is more of a risk for your teens. than your younger kids, because teens have a little, their cognitive capacity, they're able to like, and again, it's not even this conscious noticing, it's like this unconscious like, this is safer, this is what I need, this is what I want.

Speaker 1
30:45 - 31:02
They might be angry at you for staying, and not understand those realities. And guess what? It's not time to talk trash about the other parent to them. That typically will push them further away from you, especially if they have those loyalty binds.

Speaker 1
31:04 - 31:24
And so it is showing up as a, an unconditional, consistent, parent who will allow them to be who they are, to try in different things, right? Like they want to have green hair today. Okay. Like how is that harming you in any way for them to have green hair?

Speaker 1
31:24 - 31:28
Probably not. Like you might be like, yeah, I'm at the grocery store. You're like, yep. Green hair.

Speaker 1
31:28 - 31:30
Yep. My kid has green hair. Yeah. Right.

Speaker 1
31:31 - 31:47
But that's right. But allowing them to try on different things, allowing them to try things and make mistakes. and they have a safe place to fall, right? Allowing for conflict to happen.

Speaker 1
31:47 - 32:00
And they can disagree with you. And it doesn't mean you don't love them. And it doesn't mean anything in that nature. It just is having those kind of healthy conversations, being really curious about what they like.

Speaker 1
32:01 - 32:34
That's one of the things that I talk about a lot when kind of in this, you know, high conflict divorce-y place is Typically, that parent, the abusive parent, has no idea who this child is at their core. They don't have attachment. They're not willing to sit and watch anime because they want their child to be a star football player. And so you're sitting there learning all about JJK, Jujutsu Kaisen, or whatever, and you're not interested at all.

Speaker 1
32:34 - 32:41
You're like, I don't understand why kids are. But you're sitting there learning all about it. Yes. connection.

Speaker 1
32:41 - 32:53
Right. You feel like that connection that the other parent is not doing because the other parent is you will be the star football player. So over there, they're going to be the star football player. That's really good.

Speaker 1
32:53 - 33:33
So I'm wondering too now, is there a way that the safe parent can have a conversation with their teens to help them understand what's happening in this whole process without, you know, the parental alienation kind of thing. Is there a way for them to, like, give them the basics of what's actually happening without saying, You know, I say this all the time, please, your kids are not your support system. Don't try to convince them. This is the best thing in the world for them.

Speaker 1
33:33 - 33:55
You'll never do it. But is there a basic conversation so they at least have some kind of way to process what's happening without giving them too much information and without going way too on the other side? Yeah, I think the first step, again, is being a safe place for them to ask questions. because it needs to be on their timeline, not yours.

Speaker 1
33:56 - 34:14
And so often as parents, we want our kid to see, like we want them to understand why we still in this big house, now we're in this apartment and I can't afford to do all these things. And I am a hot mess all the time. I have no executive function. I want them to understand the trauma I have gone through and I still go through.

Speaker 1
34:16 - 34:35
But if it's not on their timeline, it's on your timeline, it will not go well. But if they're coming home and they're like, you know, and you're like, ooh, like, tell me about that, Cy. You just, ooh, like, something's going on. You threw your bag, like, down.

Speaker 1
34:35 - 34:55
I thought you were going to break the floor. And you're just really openly curious. Or they're like, oh, well, you know, I needed to do X, Y, and Z at my other parent's house, but then I didn't because then they made me do X, Y, and Z, you know, and it's like, so you're really trying to get their experience. Yeah.

Speaker 1
34:55 - 35:09
And then you can use language if they don't have it. So versus saying like, well, I know how that feels because I have a teen. I don't understand anything even though I actually do understand the thing. No, I don't understand the thing.

Speaker 1
35:10 - 35:26
And so it's more like, I know how it feels to walk on eggshells. Right? So you're putting a statement of like, I think this is how this person's feeling. You're not telling them how they feel.

Speaker 1
35:28 - 35:48
But you are sharing language so that they're like, what? Like, oh, yes, that is how it feels. Yes, my mom gets this. So it's like, oh, yeah, it feels like no matter what you do, you're still going to have to play football so that there's no conflict over there.

Speaker 1
35:50 - 36:14
I know. If you ever want to talk about how to have the conversation about stopping playing football, if you don't want to play football, I am open to helping you with that. But I can see that it's weighing on you. And aren't we the victims of this?

Speaker 1
36:16 - 36:47
The one thing I think happens is that they figure out the other parent inside and out. So they would be the best resource to be able to, and I hate to say the word manipulate, but if a kid has to go to that abusive parent and manipulate something to have a safe space, then who better to ask than the one who's been manipulated for the last 20 years, right? They are the source.

Speaker 1
36:47 - 37:01
They are the source. So by what you're saying makes so much sense to me because they know exactly how that kid feels. And so by putting it out there without saying anything accusatory, I think that's so good. I know how your mom is.

Speaker 1
37:01 - 37:06
I know how your dad is. Yeah. We're not even naming them. No.

Speaker 1
37:06 - 37:14
And it's so hard when. That's so very general. Yeah. And will they pick up on them?

Speaker 1
37:14 - 37:36
No, because teens sometimes pretend like you don't exist and that's just reality. I'm grieving that current. So I feel the mamas when your teen starts to get older and you're like, no, I, you didn't magically make it to karate practice. Like I drove you there and we were sitting here and you could have had a whole conversation with me, but you had your face in your phone.

Speaker 1
37:36 - 37:47
Okay. So yeah, so I write, throw things in the air, wonder aloud, they may not answer you, they are listening. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1
37:48 - 38:08
It could take a little while before they say, Oh, remember when you said, yeah, that will, that might take some processing and that's really important to say. You might not get an immediate response, but you're right. They are listening and they are watching all the time because they save up that shit for later so they can nail you. Absolutely.

Speaker 1
38:08 - 38:32
Oh my goodness. They call you out any moment of the day. So I want to ask them, When kids have gone off to the place you don't want them to go, do you have some resources or strategies for moms to settle their nervous system while they're going through that? Can you give us some tips on that?

Speaker 1
38:32 - 38:48
Because I think that's really important. Yeah, this is when community can be really important so that you have people that understand what you're going through, because a lot of people don't. And they're like, your divorce was three years ago. Get over it.

Speaker 1
38:50 - 39:03
And you're like, no, it continues. The motions continue. Yep, I'm going to be back in court. they're, you know, refusing this, but you can feel like you're too much or right.

Speaker 1
39:03 - 39:21
You're wearing out your friends. And sometimes you might be like, I know you don't want to hear this anymore. I'm so tired of talking about it, but I just can't stop your processing. And so that's when having a support group coach, um, some sort of community that understands is really helpful.

Speaker 1
39:22 - 39:59
I think if you can reframe it as I have this time, to focus on myself, because as a parent, it is really hard to, when you have the choice of spend my time, effort, money, all the things on my child, spend it on myself. Of course. No contest. But if you're not okay, you're not gonna be able to have those curious conversations when your kid comes home and is like, dad's right, you are controlling because you asked them to go get the dishes from their room.

Speaker 1
40:02 - 40:34
Your nervous systems be like, we're like, right, that is gonna be so triggering. And so as opposed to like, okay, I'm gonna use my deep breathing just in this moment. Practicing when you don't have the same triggers will allow your nervous system to do it more easily when you do. So taking time, if you find yourself in that freeze state when your kids are gone, which that means you're feeling kind of depressed, disconnected, don't want to get out of bed, you feel like you just can't start the task.

Speaker 1
40:36 - 40:49
Then doing things with like slow movement, slow, like everyone's like, get out and go for a run. Not if you're in freeze. That's so overwhelming. You think about going on a run, but it may be like walking in the mailbox.

Speaker 1
40:50 - 41:04
It may be doing more of that mindfulness sensory stuff. So feeling good things, drinking warm. drinks so that you can become present. Because then once you're present, you can start to have more energy to do the things.

Speaker 1
41:04 - 41:39
But it's that slow moving things. If you find yourself, you are, I call it hate cleaning. You hate clean because you're so anxious and you're like you're mad and you're doing the thing you're cleaning everywhere You are in fight-or-flight That is where you're at if you're hate hate cleaning because if you think about what is fight-or-flight, it's all about movement It's getting it's moving. And so if you notice yourself You cannot sit down You're likely in fight-or-flight Yeah, so use movement.

Speaker 1
41:40 - 41:59
Maybe you do clean your whole place and that makes you feel better. Maybe you do, the level of anxiety is so high that you need to do like a kickboxing class because you need to get the, that level of intensity out. And you're like meditate, like in that state, you're not going to meditate. That is not going to happen.

Speaker 1
41:59 - 42:08
Your brain is going to be everywhere. So when you're more in that freeze state, your brain will be a little bit quieter. Your body is going to be quieter. When you're in fight or flight, you've got to move.

Speaker 1
42:09 - 42:34
And so allow yourself to move. Yeah. And you know, and what works for me quite often, I mean, they, you know, when I really need to get something out, journaling does work for me, but again, sitting still, I can put the voice notes on my phone, put my earbuds in, go for a walk and rage the shit out of my voice note and get it out and the physical movement.

Speaker 1
42:34 - 43:27
And it's, sometimes I feel like, When I talk to people who don't do any of these things everything seems so overwhelming But and and there's some things that won't work like sitting there meditating might not work It took me years to be able to do that but if you pick one thing Try it for a few days and if it doesn't work get a list of some i'll put a whole whack of things in this show notes actually too And honestly for me, I get a spotify playlist And there is just some music whether you like it or not makes you want to move and in a three-minute song, during a three-minute walk, or shutting the bathroom door and just having your own little dance party, even when you don't feel like it, especially when you don't feel like it, I find that works harm for me, like really does.

Speaker 1
43:28 - 43:44
Yeah. Yeah. It's like the, um, you know, one of the things that shows up very often with these mamas, partly due to trauma, cause you, your executive function, that frontal lobe where it's organization and being able to document and know, prioritize and know what to do. All of that goes offline.

Speaker 1
43:44 - 44:14
It's gone. And so part of the reason for that, like a lot of people just call it procrastination is you're avoiding the feeling you might have. Right, you're avoiding that feeling. So you're like you get this message from your ex and immediately you freeze because your body's like danger, danger and being able to take a minute, take a step back, do something, grab cold something to drink, whatever works for you.

Speaker 1
44:15 - 44:25
Taking that pause, being like brain, there's no lion here. being able to go back, and maybe you just read it. You don't have to do anything. You just read it.

Speaker 1
44:26 - 44:37
You just read it. And doing the next step. Whatever the next step is, it could be really small. A lot of people in the fitness world, it's like, work out for five to 10 minutes.

Speaker 1
44:38 - 44:50
You don't want to work out, you work out for five to 10 minutes, and nine times out of 10, you're going to finish your workout. The other 1% of the timer, you don't. But you did 10 minutes. Yeah.

Speaker 1
44:52 - 45:12
And so and I would say, you know, some of the time, yes, the feeling you thought was going to show up is going to show up. And sometimes you're like, wow, I made like I've had mamas who are like, we'll wait for therapy to open a message from their ex. and they are anxious. They are in and out of the bathroom.

Speaker 1
45:13 - 45:20
They can't stop moving. They are so anxious. They've made it this huge thing. What is it going to be?

Speaker 1
45:20 - 45:41
And it's literally just a like, thanks. It's a single word answer or sure. And you're like, oh my gosh, I had two days of tummy troubles for that. Yeah.

Speaker 1
45:41 - 46:10
Yeah. Well, and when you talk about being afraid of that feeling, I mean, if that feeling, even if it's 30 seconds of peace is so foreign. I wonder if we're at home, as we've dropped off the kids and now we're finding some ways to self-regulate our nervous system, is there a trace of guilt? that comes with, hey, I'm here.

Speaker 1
46:10 - 46:16
I'm chilling. I'm feeling good. My kids are over there. How is my kid?

Speaker 1
46:16 - 46:26
Yes. How do we talk to moms who are sitting there like just wallowing in the guilt? They don't want to feel better because how dare you? Yes.

Speaker 1
46:27 - 46:52
That my kids are in an unsafe space and I am able to find safety. I think if you can, again, this is dependent on your court orders, this is dependent on so many things, have some form of connection when they're over at the other home. I know that this sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, based on the other parent, based on so many factors. Sometimes that can help.

Speaker 1
46:52 - 47:12
I think, again, always kind of reframing and bringing it back to what will this, my time, being able to heal, allow me to do for my children? Like, what will this allow me to do for my kids when they come home? I will be regulated. If they had a horrible time, I can be curious and hear about it.

Speaker 1
47:12 - 47:41
If they come back, because every time they come back for two days, they tell me how horrible of a parent I am, and nothing I do is right, and they fight me tooth and nail, I will be ready because I will be more regulated than that. Some of those reframes of like, if I can do this, I'm going to be the parent they need when they come back. Because it's not your, right? The other decision is going against court orders.

Speaker 1
47:44 - 47:52
Yeah. That is really good advice. Really good advice. I just, so I want to ask one more question.

Speaker 1
47:53 - 48:21
And that is, you know, we kind of went in this linear fashion. If you're thinking about it, then do this, then do this, then do this. Now we're talking to the parent who is like deep in the shit, like just never heard of you, didn't know anything about rising beyond community, but they are just, is it too late? No, and I wish, gosh, do I wish, I'm like, oh, I wish I got to, people knew they needed me before they know they need me.

Speaker 1
48:21 - 48:51
But the majority of mamas that we work with in the community specifically, they are deep in the shit before they know they need this. So that's typically when people reach out is, you know, if they could reach out before they left, glorious, that is a small percentage. That's a small percentage of the women we work with. And so no, it definitely is so helpful.

Speaker 1
48:53 - 49:09
We, gosh, we have, it's a pretty wide range. Very often it's kind of after temporary orders, which is the first, the first orders of custody and things. And you're like, no, I thought I would tell the truth. and everything would go my way and lovely.

Speaker 1
49:10 - 49:24
And you've got that first realization of like, you can lie in family court and nothing happens because my ex just told so many lies about me and nothing, nobody looked at evidence. What? Right? So you have that.

Speaker 1
49:24 - 50:06
So we see a lot of women kind of in between temporary orders and final orders because they are in that like, state of like, what the hell is this? What is this? But then we also have women who are, who join and they are three or four years post final orders, post decree and the abuse continues and they don't know what to do. Right, and they're like, I'm at my wits end, my kiddo is now old enough, they are starting to be abusive, I'm worried they're gonna become an abuser, or oh my gosh, they fawn to everyone, they're gonna be a victim.

Speaker 1
50:06 - 50:36
And so there's all of those feelings. And so it is not too late. We have had some cases, even our cases that are pro se, meaning you are representing yourself, We have had some of those just be huge turnarounds, even within family court outcomes, because they feel supported enough by the people. The mamas in the group share like, hey, this is my initial parenting plan.

Speaker 1
50:37 - 50:49
Here are all the loopholes, loophole, loophole, loophole. This is what we did at this other post-decree hearing to close up the loopholes. Here's the language, use it. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1
50:50 - 51:02
benefit of community is unbelievable. This has been so good Sybil. I can't even tell you how much I appreciate this. Please first tell us how we can find you, how we can work with you.

Speaker 1
51:03 - 51:26
All good things Sybil. Yes. Yes. So, um, the website is risingbeyondpc.com very specific because I felt like I didn't want power and control in the, actual like email or in the actual web address because if you're searching and your Stuff is being monitored.

Speaker 1
51:26 - 51:58
Oh the words power and control would be like a So that was that was purposeful. Um, so in so Rising beyond pc.com that is my handle on instagram is rising beyond pc. Um And then if you want to email me, it's actually me answering your emails, is info at risingbeyondpc.com is a great place. And then you can search the Rising Beyond podcast on every platform.

Speaker 1
52:00 - 52:16
And we have, yeah, some amazing guests. I do a lot of solo shows that are a little bit more strategic, short, because you're a single parent and you're like, OK, so I've got 30 minutes in the pickup line. school. I'm just hanging out in my car at the pickup line.

Speaker 1
52:17 - 52:32
Um, so we have some of that. Um, it's funny cause the episodes that are very highly listened to are my rants about family court related. Right. I'm like, this just happened.

Speaker 1
52:34 - 52:48
And blah, like yeah. Rants about that because I'm, it's the real, it's the real thing. And, We just, I just want you to feel supported, validated. So yeah.

Speaker 1
52:49 - 52:56
Yep. That's right. Amazing. I'm going to put everything in the show notes and I want to say listeners, thank you for listening to this episode.

Speaker 1
52:57 - 53:22
And of all the episodes, I always ask you to share and subscribe and download and all the things. If there's only one that you share, make it this one. Make this your priority. The second you finish listening, you share this on Facebook or Instagram or LinkedIn or wherever you are because you could very much potentially save a life.

Speaker 1
53:23 - 53:43
Save a family, save a kid. This is such an insidious thing to deal with, especially the course of abuse. And so even if it's not you and nobody you know that you think you know, there is somebody there that needs to hear this. So please change a life, share the episode.

Speaker 1
53:43 - 53:52
Sybil, thank you so very much. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next time. Thank you for listening to another episode.

Speaker 1
53:52 - 54:18
I hope you loved this one as much as I did. And I just wanted to share something with you because, you know, parenting teens is not just about managing these challenges that we talk about on all the episodes. It's also about evolving alongside them. And I'm Cheryl and not only the host of this podcast, but I'm also the creator of Insight to Impact, coaching and consulting.

Speaker 1
54:19 - 54:39
And I help you moms of teens reconnect with your true selves so you can lead with purpose, you can parent with clarity, you can create stronger, more meaningful relationships with your kids. Because here's the truth. The transformation starts with you. Together, we will break free from the stress and overwhelm.

Speaker 1
54:39 - 54:54
We will rediscover your power. We will create the life and the family dynamic you always dreamed of. If you're ready to start this journey, let's do it. You might just not recognize your life in the next 90 days.

Speaker 1
54:55 - 55:02
It all starts with a call. There's no pitch. There's no pressure, just a call to see if I can help. We'll talk about your goals.

Speaker 1
55:02 - 55:23
We'll talk about what's making you feel stuck and what might be getting in your way and everything you need to connect with me is in the show notes. Again, I'm Cheryl. Thank you so much for joining me here on Parenting Teens, advice redefined for today's complex world and the creator of Insight to Impact Coaching and Consulting. Have a great day.