~124~"Kids These Days" Book Review: How to Disrupt Overdiagnosis and Empower Modern Parents with Will Dobud

#ParentingTeens, #YouthMentalHealth, #OverDiagnosis

In this power‑packed interview, Cheryl sits down with Dr. Will Dobit—a socially‑savvy researcher, award‑winning educator, and outdoor‑therapy pioneer—to unpack the myth of “kids these days.” Together they expose how the troubled‑teen industry, over‑diagnosis, and a flood of contradictory mental‑health advice are hurting rather than helping our teens.

Will shares his own turbulent youth, the journey that led him to adventure‑therapy, and the hard‑earned lessons behind his new book Kids These Days: Understanding & Supporting Youth Mental Health. Parents will walk away with:

• 🔍 A clear view of why the “kids‑are‑fragile” narrative is a recycled adult story.
• 🛠️ Practical, low‑effort strategies you can start using TODAY to shift your home environment from “problem‑centered” to solution‑focused.
• 📚 A behind‑the‑scenes look at the research that shows why diagnosis and medication aren’t the only answers—and often aren’t the right ones.
• 🌱 Real‑world hope: stories of teens building 3‑D‑printed prosthetics, solar‑blankets, and fearless activism—proof that the next generation already has the tools to change the world.

If you’re a parent of a teenager who feels stuck, overwhelmed, or just wants a smarter way to support your kid’s mental health, this episode is your launchpad.

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Speaker 1
00:01 - 00:39
Welcome to another episode of Parenting Teens Advice, redefined for today's world, where we explore the truth behind parenting teenagers and the systems that shape them. Today I'm joined by Dr. Will Dobit, a social worker, researcher and award-winning educator who splits the time between US and Australia. Will is a senior lecturer at Charles Sturt University and an internationally recognized expert on youth mental health. His work shines a light on the troubled teen industry, over-diagnosis, and how therapy can truly support, not harm, our young people.

Speaker 1
00:39 - 01:06
He is also the co-author of the powerful new book, Kids These Days, Understanding and Supporting Youth Mental Health, which challenges how we label, diagnose, and respond to the struggles that our teens face. Will's insights will help every parent listening rethink how we talk about mental health connection and what our kids actually need to thrive. Welcome to the show, Will. I'm so happy to have you here.

Speaker 1
01:06 - 01:20
I'm so happy to be here. And I will just say, when we spoke the other week, just to prep for this, I was buzzing about kindred spirits. And I can't wait to have this conversation. It's so fun.

Speaker 1
01:20 - 01:39
And every time I start these things, I get these goosebumps, these chills. It happens whenever I know exactly the same thing where we have this vibe we talked about, um, really quickly last time about the disruptor whole thing. And man, I just, I, I love that term because that's exactly what we need. We need people to.

Speaker 1
01:39 - 01:54
like you to come in and just say, no, that's, this is not how we're, we're operating anymore. And more voices like yours is so welcome for these teens and parents who are sitting on the other side going, yeah, please. That's me. I really need to hear this.

Speaker 1
01:55 - 02:02
So, well, I want to ask you for like, how'd you get here? What are you doing? Why? Like, let's talk about that first.

Speaker 1
02:02 - 02:14
I want to hear your story. Sure. So where to start? I had my own turbulent youth, as many people who find themselves in the therapeutic world.

Speaker 1
02:15 - 02:37
I had an awesome childhood. I was outdoors all the time. I had a father who loved to play, took me fishing, this and that, really wonderful upbringing. And it was only when my parents finally got divorced that I realized, oh, everybody hates each other here.

Speaker 1
02:37 - 03:07
And this is really awkward and uncomfortable. And what happened in my teenage years was I was kind of left to my own devices. And not in a, I don't want to say in a bad way or a good way, but I didn't really have any good adult leadership anymore. And by the time I was sent to therapists, I was diagnosed with ADHD, I was a naughty kid, all this stuff.

Speaker 1
03:08 - 03:26
And eventually finished high school, barely, like was a terrible student, was the person probably most teachers remember for all the wrong reasons. I liked skateboarding. I was very truant. I ended up being a boarding school kid, got kicked out of boarding school twice.

Speaker 1
03:26 - 03:53
So I had my own adolescent adventure. But there was something to me as a young person, I really loved the idea of therapy. Even from 17 years old, I went, I really like talking to these people, but the truth is, I don't think they're helping very much. And that doesn't mean I wanna say that I am a better helper, because there's evidence about all of these ideas.

Speaker 1
03:55 - 04:13
But when it came time to go to college or university, I enrolled in my local community college in Maryland. And I went there, and I started studying fire science. I was becoming a firefighter. I was a volunteer firefighter and emergency medical technician.

Speaker 1
04:14 - 04:21
That was boring. And I went, I'm a good musician. I'll do music theory. Did a little bit of music theory.

Speaker 1
04:21 - 04:39
That bored me, too, because it was making music not fun. And I just started in psychology, and I had the best teacher in the world, Dr. Donald Palmer. And I'm just going to do what that guy does from now on. And he was an engaging teacher.

Speaker 1
04:39 - 04:51
He tested us at this community college. It was amazing. We had seven exams in a subject with him, and your lowest score would be ditched. But he would leave the room.

Speaker 1
04:51 - 05:12
when you started the exam. So he would say, if you all think you're going to be psychologists and you're going to have ethics, here's your chance to have some ethics. Later, leave leave my exam on the on the on the front desk. He he he rattled my I went, oh, my gosh, this guy lives it.

Speaker 1
05:12 - 05:25
I quickly transitioned to social work out of psychology, mostly because I realized that was a faster way through my education. Love being a social worker. Love the ethos of social work. Love everything about it.

Speaker 1
05:26 - 06:07
That entire time, what I was doing was working with youth in the outdoors. And I just thought my entire outdoor childhood, going to summer camp as a kid, being at boarding schools, I just thought, For kids that are struggling, there's a lot of ways we can change the environment, do different things. Not that I'm advocating for sending all kids to the woods or all kids to boarding school. But I thought, for me, there was such a reprieve of being outside with people teaching me something, teaching me a skill, learning how to canoe, learning same thing as music, that I love learning things about music.

Speaker 1
06:08 - 06:28
And I really push myself and challenge myself. So from the time I was about 19 years old, my entire adult life has been spent working with young people outside. And no matter what the qualification was, my work probably looks the same. But I keep trying to test how to do this better.

Speaker 1
06:28 - 06:40
So I've just been an outdoor therapeutic worker ever since then. I met my wife Renee in 2009. She was from Australia. I'm from America.

Speaker 1
06:41 - 06:57
We met in Alaska, of all places. And she said, you should come and visit. And right down the road is the largest adventure therapy nonprofit in Australia. So I came to this house and went, I'll just go work there for a while.

Speaker 1
06:57 - 07:56
And then I've had some Australian roots alongside my American roots. been fortunate to work with young people in, uh, I've been to Northern Canada, been to Greenland, been to Norway, uh, across America and Australia. So I've had, uh, an amazing, awesome adventure in, um, Getting to meet young people and and and try to be some sort of therapeutic ish person in their lives, so It's always linked back to my own upbringing, but I think where I am today is much less linked to that But it's part of the whole story for sure Yeah, it's it's so much about I find you know When we when we look at our childhood when we look at these, you know How we how we are as adults how we are triggered by things and

Speaker 1
07:56 - 08:30
then we go back and say oh, yeah And it's not to go back and say, you know, mom never did this or dad never did this. It's it's What I learned from that Like what what did that teach me that it? She's my mom because it was supposed to teach me something And if we can start from there and say oh, okay. Well, that's it's kind of teaching me maybe what I don't want But it's coming from always from a place of love and whatever, you know, our parents just do what they can, you know, as they know to do.

Speaker 1
08:30 - 09:00
It's our job to say, okay, how do I, how do I disrupt that and cut those generational cords and move forward and make those changes instead of the blame and shame game that we can spiral in and live there. Yeah, and it was, I mean, my mom, she's incredible, right? And if I'm in a bind, besides my partner, Renee, she'd probably be the next person I would call. She's wonderful.

Speaker 1
09:01 - 09:16
She's incredibly successful, intelligent. She reads all, for some reason, she doesn't work in the therapeutics, but she reads all the same books I do. So she might actually be more well-versed in these things than I am. She's incredible.

Speaker 1
09:17 - 09:41
And what was happening in my childhood was just these two people were coexisting together that didn't sort of belong together. And it had its difficulties. But at the same time, I look at my mother and my father and I go, That was two people doing their best. And that's what I grew up with.

Speaker 1
09:41 - 09:59
So all the difficulty, you don't fall into shame, blame, anything. When you actually see, these were two people that were just not that fit to be together. And one had their own difficulties. They had their difficulties.

Speaker 1
09:59 - 10:28
And the truth of the matter is, Our relationships all got better when changes to the environment happened. look at that as something really important for parents, that we can think, this is the way I want to parent, that's the way they want to parent. So I'm a great, I'm very comfortable in the outdoors because of my father. My mother doesn't want to go camping with me.

Speaker 1
10:28 - 10:39
She doesn't want to do these things. She lives in Washington, D.C. We are city people. So I go, I have this great piece of my story and I have this wonderful piece of my story.

Speaker 1
10:39 - 10:56
And I go, There's no shame or blame about any of it. There's no piece of my history where I go, here I am right now talking to Cheryl because of the journey that it all went on. Yeah. They're all gifts.

Speaker 1
10:56 - 11:12
And if we can look at all of this as a gift, no matter, you know, and there's some adversity that, of course, I have not experienced. But if we can take a step back and look at that adversity and say, OK, this is a gift, this is a gift. What is the gift? And take that and move forward.

Speaker 1
11:12 - 11:41
You know, what a beautiful way to, you know, to go, to live, to drive, and to help people ahead of us, you know? It's so funny when you said I was one of those students. What popped into my head, I've been teaching forever, 28 years, and what pops into my head when you said that is, yeah, I had this list of names I would never name my kids because they were that student. Oh, there's no Matthews in my house.

Speaker 1
11:41 - 11:51
No, no, there's no Mitchells. No, there's no Debbie. I just popped into my head when you said that. It's like, oh, I bet you every teacher's going, yep, that's me too.

Speaker 1
11:52 - 12:09
Yeah. But you know, you know what's funny? My one teacher that stood out in my life, my eighth grade history teacher. I don't I try not to overanalyze what I think this person was in my life, but my father had left the family.

Speaker 1
12:09 - 12:21
I had no male role models. He was a, I think, a 2425 year old new ish teacher to our school. And this guy was just so kind to me. Like, it was amazing.

Speaker 1
12:21 - 12:32
And he is still in touch with me to this day. And he said, well, congrats on this new book. Can you please come do a talk? He's a principal now at a school in Connecticut.

Speaker 1
12:32 - 12:50
He said, can you do a talk for some of the parents about youth mental health? And in my head, the only thing, the first thought that came to my mind was, But you do know I haven't changed that much. I'm still a total nuisance. I'm just as annoying as I was.

Speaker 1
12:50 - 13:43
It's just that it's channeled a bit. So yeah, I think that there is something so remarkable to be, when I look at my adult world of working with young people, There is something so wonderful just to be witness to these, what other people call naughty kids and go, you're gonna be wonderful. We're just gonna get there and this energy is more exciting than then It's so wonderful who who you're becoming and just to be a witness on this journey is fantastic That's amazing. That that's I love that I I want to dive into the book because it's so important and the first thing as I was going through The first thing in my head was, why the title?

Speaker 1
13:44 - 13:58
Kids These Days is, and I'm telling you this because it's such a phrase that's used so dismissively. Why did you choose this title? And why the book? What's the hope?

Speaker 1
13:59 - 14:35
So the boring story about Kids These Days is that Nevin called me, I'd finished writing an academic book with another colleague, and Nevin, who, Nevin's very important in my academic world as a mentor and a colleague, and Nevin called me and said, we should write something that's less for the academic space. And I said, I'm exhausted, and I don't know if we have the gumption to do this. And Nevin created a Dropbox file just called Kids These Days.

Speaker 1
14:35 - 14:48
And so it ended up being a working title. He started interviewing people. I started talking to people. And it stuck with me as a title.

Speaker 1
14:48 - 15:03
And when I started, I said to Nevin, what are we actually going to call this thing? And I thought about things like Jane Addams, the mother of social work. She wrote a book in 1909 called The Spirit of Youth. I thought that's really cool.

Speaker 1
15:03 - 15:24
Nelson Mandela had said there was such a big fight in South Africa because of the heroism of youth. I thought that's really cool. And we couldn't find anything about kids these days that really resonated with us. So what I did is I started reading about the history of how long it's been since adults have said kids these days.

Speaker 1
15:24 - 15:42
And we're living through this right now about social media. Now, I think social media stinks. I think it's a very hard digital world for kids to navigate. I think politically it's not good for adults, let alone the kids.

Speaker 1
15:43 - 16:05
But if you go back, I wrote a sub stack about this recently. We banned pinball in New York City because of youth crime in the 1940s. It was banned for 30 years. People said if a kid gives their lunch money to go play pinball, that's now called Satan's lunch money.

Speaker 1
16:06 - 16:34
So this is nothing new to blame something and say this is the evils of the children these days. I could track it back to Socrates. So we're talking 600-something BC caricatures of Socrates calling children lazy, selfish, unmotivated, out of shape, not respecting their elders. And I went, oh, this is actually nothing new, what's happening.

Speaker 1
16:35 - 16:51
What is new is we've medicalized all the labeling. So what we're seeing is adults not only calling the kids, what are the terms that we hear every day? They're fragile. They're unmotivated.

Speaker 1
16:52 - 17:09
They don't read as much as we read. The truth is all our parents said the same things about us. My father, who used to let me do whatever I want, he used to say to me, well, when I was a kid, Will, I used to stay out till the streetlights came on. And I went, that's funny.

Speaker 1
17:09 - 17:39
We've got experts on the TV today saying kids need to be outside to the street lights. Come on. So this idea of kids these days was a very kind of tongue in cheek way to say. Actually, this is all adults these days that we have to curb this behavior of labeling children instead of going on this journey with them that all we've done is start changing.

Speaker 1
17:39 - 18:10
the vocabulary but we're doing the exact same thing our parents did to us the exact same thing their parents did to them and so and that goes on and on and on and on and on um so that was kind of the the the genesis of the title why now is is kind of a more interesting story because we got pigeonholed by the title. And we couldn't let it go. And we had fights with publishers about the title.

Speaker 1
18:10 - 18:23
And then we said, we can't let it go. Because it's too funny. It gives humor to the whole thing. So we stuck with it.

Speaker 1
18:25 - 18:46
The why now question is kind of deceptively simple. Nevin and I met because Nevin wrote a paper in 2010 about adventure therapy things. So Nevin is an outdoor therapy researcher. I'm an outdoor therapy researcher.

Speaker 1
18:47 - 19:07
We met probably in 2016, and we had a friend introduce us to each other. But Nevin wrote this paper. It's something like evidence-based practice, a false idol, question mark, right? And I read this and I realized, and this is all nerd academic stuff.

Speaker 1
19:07 - 19:33
So I'm not recommending this paper to anyone unless you're an academic interested in adventure therapy things. And, and I read this paper and went, Nevin and I are reading the same stuff. And I went, we're going to be friends because he's a fiery writer and I'm learning how to be a better writer. And, um, We connected and we talked about that paper.

Speaker 1
19:33 - 20:01
And one of the biggest things about this argument is that in the research world, we're all told to be evidence-based. This is what the science says. The truth of the matter is, it takes about 20 to 25 years for cutting-edge science to become everyday practice. And so when we talked about writing this book, we thought, let's zoom out, not pick one issue.

Speaker 1
20:01 - 20:27
Because social media, again, we can see the impacts of social media. To me, it's also a dreadful, boring topic to talk about. Math teachers protested in the streets about calculators entering the classroom. Kids need good adults around them, and then they'll put the phone down.

Speaker 1
20:27 - 20:41
If you have bored kids, What are we all going to do when we're bored? What do we do on a plane? You know, they say, watch how to put a mask on your face on a plane and where the oxygen thing comes from. None of us watch it.

Speaker 1
20:41 - 20:47
We sit there on our phones. All of us. Because we're like, this is so boring. I've seen this a million times.

Speaker 1
20:47 - 21:30
So I was like, this conversation doesn't really interest me. But we see what we saw were when we started talking to so-called experts on the topics, and I think they are experts, but people that had a lane that was really fascinating to look at, what we saw was it was like they were, we had read their books, I knew what their general gist of their work was, and it was like, And here they are being brave and saying what they really think. And that, I went, you know what?

Speaker 1
21:31 - 22:14
Parents deserve to know, and educators and therapists should probably know. I don't like shoulding on people. I think it is beneficial to share what the research actually says, because what makes a headline versus what is on the sentence in the 4,000th word of a peer-reviewed article does not get communicated to everybody. So one of the mantras was, like, you know, all you have to do is spend a second on the internet and see, you know, a glass or two of red wine is really good for your whatever.

Speaker 1
22:14 - 22:42
And then you just scroll down a little bit and it says, there's no safe amount of alcohol. How can anybody actually live in this world of polarizing ideas? And the truth is, both are probably true. Both were probably good enough research studies, but how do we actually, as adults, trying to raise kids in the best way we can, live in this world where all we're getting is contradictory information?

Speaker 1
22:43 - 23:28
So that's sort of the why now. And I will say that was sort of the most fun thing about the book was to actually give our I mean Nevin and I don't agree on everything but to give ourselves guardrails of let's go right down the middle on this. Let's actually go here's what the finding is and and here's what the the best research says. Yeah you know it's funny when you talk about the title Kids These Days I feel like there's almost a paradox of an audience kids these days, you know almost like this community of Adults or parents who are like let's commiserate together because the kids these days totally Validates.

Speaker 1
23:29 - 23:59
Well, my kids are shit at home and your kids are shit at home Let's commiserate together about kids these days and but then I tie it into even the title of my my podcast parenting teens advice redefined meaning We are talking about what's happening in this world right now and we're talking about social media and all of the things that the kids are dealing with now that we never dealt with before, which is the point. But when I first thought kids these days, like I can just see, you know. The the the boys club and the girls club.

Speaker 1
23:59 - 24:15
They're all 60 years old at mcdonald's having their coffee going kids these days Did you see his paper? So it's such a great It's a magnetizing title. I just love it. It's so cool Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1
24:16 - 25:02
It's so startling. And I have friends, like friends not in my work circles, who they will find any article, like there is a school in Australia, and I'm in Australia at the moment, it's called the Nature School. And they had a student, and I'm going to make up this story a little bit, but if you search up the nature school, it's in Port Macquarie, New South Wales, you'll find this story. But let's say a 12-year-old had a prosthetic arm, 3D printed, and the kids went to the school and said to the principal and the teacher, they have this sort of democratic style of teaching, They said, we'd like to raise money to learn how to 3D print because we

Speaker 1
25:02 - 25:21
could help more kids get prosthetics who need them. And they freaking did it. And I have friends text me and go, those damn kids these days, look at them. But the kids today, this is an interesting sort of the politics of the book.

Speaker 1
25:23 - 25:50
Kids are actually far more progressive than we think we are. And so one of the interesting things is if you give them space and really listen to them. they're going to do wonderful things. But if you expect them to fit into the mold of what we think is most important, we'll end up sounding like these very rigid people who are going, why aren't the kids these days the way I think kids these days should be?

Speaker 1
25:51 - 26:00
So the truth is the kids these days are wonderful. They're amazing. It's incredible. And, but there's an inherent risk.

Speaker 1
26:00 - 26:26
about believing that kids are wonderful, because we have to let go of being the hoolidooly expert of everything. And so if you want to look out for kids being amazing, you'll find it everywhere. I think there is somebody who made, this might be Denmark, a teenager who made a solar-powered blanket that will heat itself. I saw that!

Speaker 1
26:26 - 26:32
Yeah, for homeless people. A kid! Yeah. You know, but technology is the devil, but not for this kid.

Speaker 1
26:33 - 26:43
They're saving people's lives with technology. The kids are wonderful. Yeah. And when that's what you're looking for, that's all you will find evidence of that.

Speaker 1
26:43 - 27:15
Yeah. Yeah, I want to go into that we talked loosely a minute ago about in the book like the old the diagnosis and the labeling. And I really want to get into this because, you know, the kids like I want to know what you feel about them. diagnosis, authentic diagnosis versus labeling the difference and the harm and benefit that comes from both because we throw this shit around all the time.

Speaker 1
27:15 - 27:23
Oh my, like you said, Oh my God, he's so lazy. He's so this, he's so that must be, it can't sit still. He's ADD. Oh, he's a jerk.

Speaker 1
27:23 - 27:35
He's narcissists. Like we just throw this stuff around and I feel like it invalidates a true diagnosis. Yes. But you talked about, you're the pro, like I wanna know how you feel about this.

Speaker 1
27:35 - 28:14
So I'll never forget working in the United States and I helped start an intensive outpatient program. It was billed by private health insurance. And in order for us all to get paid, children needed a diagnosis on their record. And so parents would say, parents of all different financial backgrounds would say to me, I mean, some didn't care.

Speaker 1
28:14 - 28:36
They said, yes, we want you to treat their autism, their ADHD, their depression, their anxiety, whatever. Many parents would say to us, screw it, we'll pay out of pocket. We don't want a diagnosis on my child's record. And that was the start of my sort of being a bit critical about this.

Speaker 1
28:38 - 29:32
The other thing about the diagnoses is When we look at the history of these labels, so much of it is cultural, so much of it is changing the goalposts of what it means to be this or that. And we joke around about new labels like prolonged grief disorder that was only created by a pharmaceutical company. It's remarkable, the history of these things. But all you have to do is take the story of homosexuality in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and realize that here is something that actually disappeared as a disorder when people stood up and said, this is not a mental illness.

Speaker 1
29:32 - 30:06
This is who we are. And it did not change because the American Psychiatric Association said, actually, we should probably stop doing this. It changed because of public outcry. So when you think about the disorders that we are labeling people with, one of the things is whether or not these disorders are real or not, is an important question, but you can't do biopsies for these things for the most part.

Speaker 1
30:06 - 30:47
So it's very hard to find. So it is often when somebody is deviating from the cultural norm that they're labeled these things. I mean, there was something after the Civil War in America, and I can't pronounce the word, so I won't pretend to pronounce it, but there was a term used, and absolute bullshit, for slaves wanting to be free from their captor was a disorder. So things like, and we wrote about this in the book, things like the youngest child in the classroom most likely to be diagnosed with ADHD.

Speaker 1
30:49 - 31:19
How is that possible if we're actually testing and vetting for these issues? Now, there's the issue of is diagnosing everybody actually helping those seriously at risk or seriously in an unwell way getting the help they need? I think that is a huge issue. The whole Western world's mental health system is centered on the diagnosis.

Speaker 1
31:20 - 31:50
It's centered on what's wrong with you, Where the truth is, we've played along with this myth from about the 1930s that we're able to find what's wrong with you through a really short measure. some sort of survey, some sort of questionnaire, and I'll know what's wrong with you, and you'll get the right treatment. Here's the problem. Not 1% improved outcomes since the 1930s in mental health care.

Speaker 1
31:50 - 32:07
The first meta-analysis of all time is a psychotherapy meta-analysis from 1977. We have not improved 1% in outcomes since then. Now, here's a piece of perspective here. There were about 60 or so types of therapy at the time.

Speaker 1
32:07 - 32:19
There's now over a thousand. Oh, my God. So think about the times in the 90s, everyone had a genetic predisposition. Today, everyone's traumatized.

Speaker 1
32:19 - 32:40
You know, it's it's adverse childhood experiences. Well, show me the data that indicates that being trauma informed has moved the needle on anything. That was where we grew hypercritical of this. We're learning how to categorize and classify people and not much is changing.

Speaker 1
32:42 - 33:17
And so that's where the medicalizing of youth distress, while they are simultaneously undergoing the, let's say, 10 to 25 years of age, where they're supposed to form their identity, we're imposing these diagnoses on them. And what do they do? This is something we wrote about that Like my mother, my mother was a breast cancer survivor. I never ever heard her say, I am cancer.

Speaker 1
33:19 - 33:50
Or do we say, I am depressed, I am attention deficit, I am autistic, I am this, I am neurodiverse, I am these things. And I think they're really complicated ideas for children to understand. And I think in many ways, There's also here's the flip side of when is a diagnosis really helpful. Many people we see this a lot with with women adult women getting an ADHD diagnosis.

Speaker 1
33:50 - 33:55
They go. I finally figured it out. I finally got it. I know.

Speaker 1
33:55 - 34:35
And so at that stage, what we want to do as the other adults around these people is go, so what does this mean? How do we know that this diagnosis, in six months, how will we know that this is still a useful diagnosis? So we don't want to view them as this, I am just this one thing, because there is a euphoria that comes of going, that person really understands me. But then we want to learn, why does it feel good to have this experience put on you?

Speaker 1
34:35 - 34:56
Like, I was diagnosed by Edward Hallowell, who wrote all the ADHD books, because I was at school in Massachusetts. And he said to me, I can't believe you even made it past year eight. And I went, oh, well, I get it. This is me, you know.

Speaker 1
34:56 - 35:11
And my partner, Renee, she will say, oh, well, you're just so ADHD. And I go, Yeah, OK. I'm ambivalent to it, but I also know exactly who I am. I'm hyperactive, hyper-focused.

Speaker 1
35:12 - 35:25
I'm all over the place. But it, as a disorder, doesn't interest me. It actually just tells me, this is the way the fingerprint in my brain works. So I've learned about myself.

Speaker 1
35:25 - 35:50
I know how to work. I know when I'm at my best, when I probably shouldn't go do things because I'm going to be lazy and annoying. And so I know my social quirks. But yeah, there's a big part of this where we're throwing these things around, and it ends up really dumbing down where these terms were supposed to come from.

Speaker 1
35:50 - 36:08
One more, as I'm on my monologue about this, one more thing that I think is really important is it's often thrown around by adults who want that child to fit in. Yes. Why is it the youngest kid in the classroom? That educator is like, why am I not connecting with this kid?

Speaker 1
36:09 - 36:22
They might talk to the parents. The parents might take them to a psychiatrist. They get an assessment. All the information that's provided to the source of the diagnosis comes from almost everybody but the child.

Speaker 1
36:25 - 37:10
Yeah and as you're talking about diagnosis what what comes to mind first of all I am 1000 percent ADHD and known forever but never but didn't get the diagnosis from a psychiatrist until I don't know, three years ago, four years ago, right before I actually retired because my... My strength in my role wasn't data entry and writing report cards. I was on crisis management all the time, and that was my jam. I could leap into a situation at any given moment, look after it, debrief myself later, but that was my life, that I loved it.

Speaker 1
37:11 - 37:46
And when I moved out of that role into a little calmer data entry, boring role, It took over my life the adhd took over my life in the way that I felt sick every time I had to sit down at the computer like it just and so instead of Saying okay. I'm not going to do this anymore. That was my job went to the psychiatrist got the meds Noticed a difference right away that I could sit and do the things I hated to do Because I was on the meds Hmm and I guess about six months ago.

Speaker 1
37:46 - 38:01
So I started the podcast I retired from that position started the podcast and Realized that I could sit at a computer with you. I could sit here for five hours and talk to you Problem, that's my jam. We're talking about crisis. We're talking about kids.

Speaker 1
38:01 - 38:48
We're talking about everything that I love When it comes to editing this after off it goes Yeah Meds are done. Meds are done. And I'm not disputing medication in any way, but I'm also looking at the way that we diagnose our kids, we send them off to these assessments to see if they're ADHD, and we ask them to sit down and answer 752 questions, and then we get the viewpoint from the parent who has their own skewed view, and then we get the viewpoint from the teacher who has their own skewed view, who's also asking this kid to sit down in traditional education systems, and then we go, Oh yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1
38:48 - 39:11
Give them the bet. I think as a diehard fan of comedy, I'll never forget early on in the South Park days, they did an episode about ADHD, where the test for ADHD was all the kids being read The Great Gatsby. And then they said something like, OK, we finished reading The Great Gatsby. All the kids are asleep.

Speaker 1
39:12 - 39:30
And they said, in chapter 5, what happened? And they went, my gosh, all these kids have ADHD. None of them paid attention to this whole thing that was just dreadful boring, right? So testing is an interesting question, and we didn't shy away from talking about this.

Speaker 1
39:33 - 40:02
We pick on terms like universal, like a universal screening measure. The Patient Health Questionnaire 9, PHQ-9, the most widely used screening measure for depression. It's nine questions, and it's got questions like, do you sleep too much or sleep too little? Like, what does this actually say that warrants a chemical intervention?

Speaker 1
40:03 - 40:33
Like all of us would argue we don't sleep enough, right? And so what was fascinating about some of the research we dug up about the PHQ-9, it has a false positive rate of 65 to 77%. That means if you take it, you're more than likely to be diagnosed as depressed. The other thing that happens is for those, this was a study from 2011.

Speaker 1
40:33 - 41:13
If you take this questionnaire, the most widely used depression screening measure, it's cited in 11,000 peer-reviewed papers. That's huge, right? If you take this measure and you don't alert in these nine simple questions, if you don't signal for depression, 45% still leave with a prescription to antidepressants. So one of the things is we are looking for this sort of, what's the easiest way out of this?

Speaker 1
41:13 - 41:41
And where I would turn this around is there's a so much easier way with much less harm way out of this. Like for instance, when we say we got to get phones out of the schools, agree. But how is it possible that kids are going to school and reporting in study after study that there is a loneliness epidemic? How can that be possible?

Speaker 1
41:42 - 42:08
They're surrounded by other kids their age, and they're surrounded by adults who entered the world of teaching and educating our young to do the right thing. Who the hell could be lonely in that world? So removing the phones, what's going to happen? All of a sudden, we're all going to be together and having fun and playing and taking risks and being wild and these things.

Speaker 1
42:09 - 42:58
I think the answer isn't waiting for And I think this comes across in the book, Nevin and I's two kind of anarchy people, not in the gross way. But I think that we both come across as why are we waiting for federal governments to sort this out when we really could? just simply with some small changes make the life of kids much more exciting, really treat them like they have things to participate in, show them that their opinion about the world really matters, and so then we can create the experience of I think it's much more simple than the labeling the medications.

Speaker 1
42:58 - 43:11
And again, I'm not anti-medication at all. Not at all. And so I would never tell someone who took medication, that's the wrong move, or someone whose kid benefited from it, wrong. I would never go there.

Speaker 1
43:12 - 43:36
At the same time, I think there's simpler things that we can do right now for a lot of kids that would drag these numbers down. I think this idea of universal screening everyone is a horrible idea. I think the idea of calling an entire generation anxious is not a good idea. I think there are so many ways we're playing into the hands of the wrong solutions.

Speaker 1
43:37 - 44:13
And that leads to the regrettable substitutions. Well, and when we do this, you know, it's almost like we validate whatever the behavior is and parents can say, well, he's ADHD, he's this, he's that, and put them in that box and always have an excuse. And this, I'm not, I'm not slamming parents for not knowing, but I'm also saying now the kid's going, oh, Oh, well, I'm supposed to be bad. I'm supposed to be doing this because that's my diagnosis.

Speaker 1
44:13 - 44:54
It is completely defining me. This is the rest of my life. And I fall, not lean on that diagnosis, but I can say, Well, it's this and this is me and this is who this is who I am like you said I am I am I am as opposed to This might be a slice of what i'm working with right now and this is how I can use this for my benefit and Not be in this this box of just validating the kid who has meltdowns or the kid who's you know Impulse control, you know, I feel like we we just say oh that's it's not my

Speaker 1
44:54 - 45:31
parenting. Is that my fault? Yeah, I They said it they gave the screen they gave me the meds It's all them and I and I feel like this is where the disruption comes in, you know If somebody's listening to you, you know, you said it's not that hard like What are some? tangible things that we can do whether as an educator as a parent what's tangible what's easy to say okay let's let's do this instead let's disrupt this whole bullshit yes so this is this is interesting because um I hate telling other people what to do.

Speaker 1
45:31 - 45:57
I think it's such a trap. And in my clinical work, one of the things I noticed working with young people is, and we've all been there, where a parent comes in, and this is not a disappearance because, I mean, I've parenting my own teenagers. They're in their early 20s. So I've been there where it's like, how the heck is this not working?

Speaker 1
45:57 - 46:08
And why are they so annoying to live with? Right? It's incredible. One of the things that happens is we seek external help as a parent.

Speaker 1
46:09 - 46:45
And we go, OK, I need some assistance with this. And the kid goes to the therapist, goes to the coach, goes to whoever. and nobody else sees the kid as annoying, obnoxious, selfish, you know, can't speak clearly, doesn't make their bed, all the things that kids, you know, don't do the dishes, they don't help, they don't say thank you, all these things that we see day in day out. Your kid leaves the house and does all these amazing things, then they come back home and they're the person that you see, you know?

Speaker 1
46:46 - 47:16
And one of the things I learned in my clinical work is I was going, I cannot figure out that I don't see the kids that are referred to me by parents, by the courts, by the schools. I'm not seeing the same kids they're telling me that they're seeing. Parents, for the most part, need things to do. We all sit around, and here's an example I use.

Speaker 1
47:17 - 47:33
in the book, that quite often if we're in a fight with our partner, right? And then we sit on the couch next to each other and we put the TV on, everyone's on eggshells. It's like, do you still like me? Do you want me to sit next to you?

Speaker 1
47:33 - 47:39
Am I too close next to you? Am I breathing too loud? Am I really annoying you? Should I pour you a glass of wine?

Speaker 1
47:39 - 47:52
Should I not do this thing? Should I, you know what I mean? And we're all, instead of going, this, this moment is awesome. Even while we're having a fight, this is fantastic.

Speaker 1
47:52 - 48:09
I love being in this house with you. It's amazing. So simple things that we can do. One of the things I do is if you're in a really tricky place and you're thinking, I have no idea where to start.

Speaker 1
48:10 - 48:28
One of my superheroes, Insu Kimberg. Insu helped start solution-focused therapy. Again, this therapy, like all the stupid therapies, no better or worse than anything else, but I was trained in it, so it's what I know. But this idea, I love.

Speaker 1
48:29 - 49:05
Before Insu passed away, she did a study, I believe it was in New York City, where she sat in the back of public schools with the naughtiest kids. So she sat in the back and she called it the Working on What Works intervention, the WOW, W-O-W-W. She sat in the back and when she noticed kids sitting still and doing their homework and doing their study, she walked up, tapped them on the shoulder and said, you're really doing a wonderful job. And she went and sat back down.

Speaker 1
49:05 - 49:44
They did that for, I think, the first four weeks. And then after those four weeks, she went in front of the class and she said, with the teacher there, she said, here's what I learned about the classroom, that you're all really good. Maybe when your teacher is doing this, you're all doing, not doing good like a controlling way, like you're all really engaged when this is happening, this and that. And then what they did is for the next four weeks of the semester, the kids all worked on how to actually take what Insu observed and tap them on the shoulder to notice.

Speaker 1
49:44 - 50:03
And then they worked together for the last four weeks of the semester to go, how do we do this intentionally? I love this. Oh my God. And so what it does is it gave kids active participation in their classroom.

Speaker 1
50:04 - 50:25
And I don't mean this like don't have boundaries, let kids do whatever they want. I don't mean it that way. So how can we do this in our own homes? One thing to do if you're feeling really stuck is to write down, take a week and go, I'm going to write down every time things aren't as bad as I think they are.

Speaker 1
50:26 - 51:28
Because if you write that down, those are the times if you're in a fight with your partner, if your kids are being like kids, that's your doorway into having a good conversation. So we don't wanna treat, especially in adolescence where everything is turbulent, their brain is pruning all of this information, they're going through a neurological process that all of us would give up thousands of dollars to go through to have the brain we have now as adults. So remember what it's like to be a teenager, remember what it's like to be an adolescent, and then just find the moments where you have a key that's an in to go, things are good right now, let's have a conversation. And when things become a pattern, My things I hear in my work, every day my kid comes home and we have a fight.

Speaker 1
51:29 - 51:45
Don't have a fight right then. Just do not. Every time, make the dinner table amazing to be at. It's a funny thing with giving as an educator myself.

Speaker 1
51:46 - 52:06
I love talking about things that have nothing to do with social worker therapy or kids, because there's so many amazing stories like, how did airline safety become so safe? It's incredible. People worked their ass off. And I can say, how have mental health outcomes flatlined?

Speaker 1
52:05 - 52:29
But we're putting people in the air at 30, 40,000 feet is getting better. There are stories here, tell stories, bring people in and get them thinking. And so I think what we notice about our kids, that doesn't mean they're not totally obnoxious and annoying, right? My kids are wonderful.

Speaker 1
52:29 - 52:36
One's a paramedic. Straight A student. The other one's in engineering school at university. Straight A student.

Speaker 1
52:38 - 52:58
Totally difficult. Oh, I don't want to undermine any of that. I could care less about their grades. The more we notice the times when we can connect, I think that's a simple way to start.

Speaker 1
52:59 - 53:24
Work on what works. I love that. I feel like we could talk forever. So I have one more, one more ask, and that is, after all these years of, you know, studying troubled the teen industry and mental health, and I, and, you know, this whole flat line and, you know, this baseline assessments and all of that.

Speaker 1
53:25 - 53:35
What gives you hope for this generation of kids? What gives you hope for the parents raising them? There's got to be hope. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1
53:36 - 53:54
I think for the most part, when it comes to the kids, the thing that gives me hope is Let me get political for a second. I think politics sucks. And I grew up in Washington, D.C., right? I grew up in ground zero.

Speaker 1
53:55 - 54:14
And I know the greatest gift of the kids of any generation is they can call bullshit better than any adult. And we go, how are these politicians going to help? They'll be fine. They will be fine.

Speaker 1
54:15 - 54:52
and the kids are amazing. What I think about the parents is it's equally as so. The reason parenting books are in every airport is every parent is going to the airport and going, shit, do I need to read that because I'm struggling and I need to know better. The greatest, the most amazing thing of parenting is, I remember, this is a funny anecdote if we have a few minutes.

Speaker 1
54:52 - 55:02
Of course. Isabella was probably 14 or 15. We're in Australia. And so this is over 10 years ago.

Speaker 1
55:02 - 55:27
And she said, I want to go to that adventure therapy conference with you, which was at John Marsden School. So John Marsden wrote Tomorrow When the War Began. He's a famous Australian author who had created a school that parents signed consent at the start of the school year. So if they went Screw it, we're going camping for a week.

Speaker 1
55:27 - 55:34
Parents couldn't say no. They were like, we're going. So it was an outdoor amazing school. John Marsden was a legend.

Speaker 1
55:34 - 55:48
He wrote a wonderful book called The Art of Growing Up. He was such a hero. He passed away this year or late last year. So I brought Bella to this school.

Speaker 1
55:48 - 55:59
and for this conference. And I, of course, gave presentations. Bella came and watched me present, which was weird, having my 14-year-old there. And she's wonderful.

Speaker 1
55:59 - 56:21
We were all having wine and playing Frisbee at night. Outdoor therapy conferences are very bizarre. And I said to Bella during that conference, I said, I want you to think of the few hundred people here, who would you want to be your therapist if you ever went? And she said at the end of it, she said this guy.

Speaker 1
56:21 - 56:37
She said, Daniel Bowen. Daniel Bowen did the biggest meta-analysis of adventure therapy outcomes. Daniel, to me, I would not want, we're good friends, would not want Daniel to be my therapist. And she said, he's the kindest person here.

Speaker 1
56:38 - 56:47
And I was like, my gosh. She sees this. It's so good. Like, she's seen these things.

Speaker 1
56:47 - 57:15
But at this conference, it was so it was so amazing that she at the end of the conference, us who are on the committee, the organizing people, they said, and each of you just host a. A small discussion or reflective circle about certain topics that people at the conference want to talk about. I said, sure. And I got a topic called holding space.

Speaker 1
57:16 - 57:34
Now, me as sort of a sciency, not a good scientist, but I went, I don't know what that means. Yeah, I don't get it. And they gave holding space to me. And so we sat at John Marsden school in a trampoline and Bella said, I'm going to come to that.

Speaker 1
57:35 - 57:49
And I went, oh, God, she's going to learn how big of a cynical asshole. And we sat down, and there was like 10 people in a circle. And Bella's right across from me. And I said, I'm just going to start that.

Speaker 1
57:49 - 58:02
To be frank, I don't really know what this term means. And I think it's too voodoo-y. And I don't get it, because I'm just a relationship person. And I think holding space, relationship, blah, blah.

Speaker 1
58:02 - 58:20
And it went around the circle, and people were saying, this is an amazing topic. And it got to Bella, and she said, You know, I think what you all just did was holding space. And I saw you all disagree, not fight. You all did it.

Speaker 1
58:20 - 58:39
And I went, my gosh, the 14-year-old is right. Oh, my god. And I went, what gives me hope is I think the more we look to the kids, They're going to be great. And like, like we're all scared of AI at the moment.

Speaker 1
58:39 - 58:46
They're going to create the next thing that scares the shit out of us. You know, they're going to go to Mars. They're going to do this next thing. It's terrifying.

Speaker 1
58:47 - 59:01
But the truth is they also care about things like the climate. Oh my God. They care about animals. They care about so many things that, uh, And this is zooming out.

Speaker 1
59:01 - 59:20
This is not anyone's individual youth experience. So I'm full of hope. It's mostly the experts and those adults that scare the shit out of me, where I go. I think the kids are OK if we just change some little things in the environment.

Speaker 1
59:21 - 59:48
But I think the blueprint is there for many of us. I can't help it. tear up because I feel the same like they're going to be okay. Our kids are, man, when we give them their space to be who they are and not who we think they should be and a box we think we need to put them in, man, we see these shining lights and you're right, they're going to create something.

Speaker 1
59:48 - 1:00:11
And I think maybe in the back of their mind, I'm going to create something that there's no way these guys are ever going to figure out. Yeah, right. It's just it's amazing. I just uh, like I said, I feel like we could talk forever and I and when I love when I hear people talk about the hope for our kids, of course, it just warms my heart because they're they're like the heartbeat of our world and we have to

Speaker 1
1:00:11 - 1:00:48
just Keep letting them be who they are and I just want to thank you so much for your incredible work And and what you do to protect and empower our teens and now our parents um, you know, it's It all falls into You know, I talk about this all the time. It's not them. It's you You as the educator, you as the parent, it's you in the sense that that's where the magic happens because now we have control to say, what is it about me that I need to broaden or open up or expand on so I can see my kid

Speaker 1
1:00:48 - 1:01:02
for who they are? And not who again who I think they should be and i'm so i'm so uh, grateful so grateful. I feel like I've made a friend. Uh, oh totally I just I can't wait to do this again.

Speaker 1
1:01:02 - 1:01:16
Yes. Yes I think we need to dive more into like disrupting everything. Let's let's go into the systems and You know because it's not just one disruptor, right? It's like if we all take on this role It's not, oh, just my voice.

Speaker 1
1:01:16 - 1:01:28
It's just my voice. So that's not my voice. But if it's my voice, and Will's voice, and Neville's voice, then we become this force. And I feel like that's where we need to go.

Speaker 1
1:01:29 - 1:01:55
Yeah. And one poem, and a colleague of mine sent this to me, that kids don't belong to you. They belong to tomorrow. And so it's not your world to fit them into, it's their next world to fit them into, that they'll fit into themselves.

Speaker 1
1:01:55 - 1:02:07
They will sort it out, you know? And even when we think about social media, as boring to me as this conversation is, They're navigating it pretty well. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Speaker 1
1:02:07 - 1:02:17
I get it. It's impossible. You know, it's an algorithm. I still know that.

Speaker 1
1:02:17 - 1:02:38
Who the hell knows what that is? You know, I remember this is a funny anecdote. We're Washington sports fans, and I brought that to Australia, so I've convinced the kids we have to care about all these sports teams. And we were watching the playoffs, and Lucas, who's 21, brought over a few of his friends to watch a game.

Speaker 1
1:02:39 - 1:03:24
And I was just scrolling through Twitter during a commercial, which, when you have a book coming out, you have to be on all these things. And I'm scrolling through Twitter, and I said to three 21-year-old boys, I said, Twitter's really the worst. I said, it's really like my feed is sports, Therapy and then just like a dose of disgusting pornography and all three of them said that's why we deleted twitter And I went wow, so you can navigate this no problem Meanwhile But I just thought to myself I went Actually if we had real conversations about these things The kids would get it.

Speaker 1
1:03:25 - 1:03:52
Yeah. We have to trust them to understand these things that they if they're if they're alone, like it's the funny thing of stranger danger. If they're alone figuring out stranger danger on the Internet by themselves, they're going to be inundated by horrible things. At the same time, if we're real about, hey, what you're going to see flicking through social media is not cool.

Speaker 1
1:03:53 - 1:03:59
Mm hmm. they're gonna go, oh yeah, that is weird. Like, why does that pop up? I didn't voluntarily ask for that.

Speaker 1
1:03:59 - 1:04:04
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awareness.

Speaker 1
1:04:04 - 1:04:10
Noticing. What do we notice? Kids are amazing. Yeah.

Speaker 1
1:04:11 - 1:04:26
I love it. And on that note, I want you to tell, first of all, before we have to go, where people can find you, we're gonna put everything in the show notes, of course, the book, everything. So just tell us where to find you. So I am an entire open book.

Speaker 1
1:04:26 - 1:04:48
So anytime you search my name, you'll find something on a social media, on anything. If you want to learn more about the book, kidsthesedaysbook.com is the place to go, just all like it's one word. You can learn about the experts we spoke with for this book. And there's people from all different walks of life.

Speaker 1
1:04:48 - 1:05:53
We have a chapter about environmental toxins, which I assure you, is terrifying, but not as terrifying as I make it out to be. But then all the things of risky play and what happened to playgrounds, and ultimately the book leads to this idea of how do we actually deviate from the cultural norm and Let kids grow up in a world worth growing up in. But yeah, so if you're interested in outdoor therapy stuff, which is a very specific world that might interest you, might not, but also if you want to meet cool people, if you go to OutdoorTherapyCenter.com, and that is center with the R-E at the end, not the American E-R. Every year I put together a series of presentations for, in Australia is Social Sciences Week, which is a chance for social scientists to present their stuff free into the world.

Speaker 1
1:05:54 - 1:06:10
No email lists, no anything. You can watch cool. I think there's 35 to 37 hours of free webinars, presentations on there that we get nothing. It's not a business, so we don't get any.

Speaker 1
1:06:10 - 1:06:31
We're not interested in making money from sharing stuff with our friends. But I'm on Substack as well. I write something with Nevin every now and then when we get a quirky idea like about pinball and cell phone bands. But no, we're everywhere and can be found on the social media platforms.

Speaker 1
1:06:31 - 1:07:10
But what we really want is, I think our passion is this book just simply giving what we think is good information into the hands of adults, and for people to feel like they can do with it what they want. You can challenge us, critique us. That's totally cool, because that's actually how the world of research and science works. That what works for you doesn't mean I have to be an expert in your life.

Speaker 1
1:07:10 - 1:07:29
I care more about doing more of what works with your family and things like that. But like I said, I'm a total open book. So email me, tweet me, Facebook me, whatever we call it. And yeah, no, I love connecting with people like you, Cheryl.

Speaker 1
1:07:29 - 1:07:49
I mean, I love this dialogue and I love connecting with you. I am so ever so grateful to have met you, to have this conversation. Your generosity is over the top and your energy is incredible. And I'm so people are lucky to know you and hear about you and read about you.

Speaker 1
1:07:49 - 1:07:54
And we will definitely have a sequel. Definitely. Yes. Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1
1:07:54 - 1:08:10
Thank you for your time. Thank you for listening to Parenting Teens Advice Redefined. If you're going to do anything today, share this episode because people need to hear this. And one day you're going to wake up to your social media DMs and someone's going to say, hey, thanks for sharing that changed my life.

Speaker 1
1:08:10 - 1:08:25
What better way to wake up? Thank you again for listening and we'll see you next time. Thank you for listening to another episode. I hope you loved this one as much as I did.

Speaker 1
1:08:25 - 1:09:00
And I just wanted to share something with you because, you know, parenting teens is not just about managing these challenges that we talk about on all the episodes. It's also about evolving alongside them. And I'm Cheryl and not only the host of this podcast, but I'm also the creator of Insight to Impact, coaching and consulting. And I help you moms of teens reconnect with your true selves so you can lead with purpose, you can parent with clarity, you can create stronger, more meaningful relationships with your kids.

Speaker 1
1:09:01 - 1:09:10
Because here's the truth. The transformation starts with you. Together, we will break free from the stress and overwhelm. We will rediscover your power.

Speaker 1
1:09:10 - 1:09:25
We will create the life and the family dynamic you always dreamed of. If you're ready to start this journey, let's do it. You might just not recognize your life in the next 90 days. It all starts with a call.

Speaker 1
1:09:25 - 1:09:34
There's no pitch. There's no pressure, just a call to see if I can help. We'll talk about your goals. We'll talk about what's making you feel stuck and what might be getting in your way.

Speaker 1
1:09:34 - 1:09:52
And everything you need to connect with me is in the show notes. Again, I'm Cheryl. Thank you so much for joining me here on Parenting Teens, advice redefined for today's complex world and the creator of Insight to Impact Coaching and Consulting. Have a great day.