When The Call Hits Home | Episode 7: Turning Weaknesses into Strengths

Jennifer [00:00:07]:
Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Sailor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop, and this is the podcast when the call hits home.

Ashlee [00:00:16]:
Hey, everyone. It's Ashley Geithner. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer.

Jennifer [00:00:23]:
Well, again, Eric, thank you so much for being here. We're excited to have you.

Ashlee [00:00:27]:
Do you know, I guess,

Jennifer [00:00:28]:
a little bit just background about Ashley and I kinda coming together as we kinda share? We're both the kids of cops. And I think we kinda recognized our experiences, though different in different places. There was also some similarities, and it just kinda was a little seed that was planted. And so we are excited to have people like you on the podcast just to talk about their experiences and being first kids of first responders and maybe even first responders themselves. So could you just start by telling us a little bit about yourself today?

Erich [00:01:01]:
Trying to think of where to begin.

Ashlee [00:01:03]:
We want it all.

Erich [00:01:06]:
I'm coming up on 32 now, and I've been in EMS and Fire since 2012. So it's been a little bit of a time, been a crazy road. I've been to multiple different agencies in my state and in Pennsylvania as well to get my paramedic education done. In that time frame, I've done firefighting as career and volunteer. I'm currently a career paramedic at a EMS only agency, and, I have done everything from occupational health to hyperbaric chamber medicine to working as an emergency room technician. And I've done inner facility. I've done 911, and I've done critical deployment team called DMAT, which is Okay. The disaster medical assistance teams through FEMA and NDMS, the Nash National Disaster Medical Systems.

Erich [00:02:15]:
And, basically, they'll activate teams of health care professionals to respond to disasters in the continental US as well as potentially overseas outside of the country if the need calls for it. I just haven't been called up

Jennifer [00:02:31]:
yet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Being the keyword, I'm sure.

Erich [00:02:34]:
Being.

Ashlee [00:02:35]:
Yeah.

Jennifer [00:02:37]:
So would you say that kind of first responding is in your blood a little bit?

Erich [00:02:42]:
I would say so. As far back in the generations as I can go, it's all been first responders or military and so I'm in my family. So at least the last 5 or 6 generations. I'm actually the only generation of my family in the last 5 to 6 that is not law enforcement or military. I'm the 1st paramedic and firefighter. So I'm kinda

Ashlee [00:03:08]:
relaxing. Yeah. How are you?

Erich [00:03:11]:
I broke I broke the trend just a little bit. Gotcha.

Jennifer [00:03:15]:
So tell us about your appearance then specifically, if you don't mind.

Erich [00:03:20]:
Sure. So my mom was a Maryland state trooper back in the early eighties. Her and my father met in the Maryland State Police Academy, actually. Before that, my father was Baltimore City Police, and he was on what was called the QRT, the quick response team, which was their version name of the SWAT team when it was Okay. First being created and really rolling out as a thing in Baltimore City. And then he went to Maryland State Police and met my mother, and my mom suffered an on duty injury and was medically retired from the Maryland State Police within, I believe, 5 years of her being a trooper.

Ashlee [00:04:03]:
Oh, wow.

Erich [00:04:04]:
And then my dad left the state police in around the same time frame because he got a job offer from the FBI.

Jennifer [00:04:13]:
Wow.

Ashlee [00:04:13]:
And

Jennifer [00:04:14]:
Oh, okay.

Erich [00:04:15]:
He did bank robberies for a little bit when he was first starting out, and then he moved into counterterrorism and did a lot of work with the CIA over the years. And as a result, because he was now single family single person family income, he is always trying to move upwards in the FBI and the chain and get higher paying jobs to afford to pay for everybody on a single salary.

Ashlee [00:04:43]:
Right.

Erich [00:04:43]:
And as a result, it was 21 times we moved in 19 years of my life growing up. And an almost all of them were across state lines and at least 4 of them were across country lines. I spent 5 years living in Germany in Berlin. I was there from 2,000 to 5. Wow.

Ashlee [00:05:06]:
Wow. That's incredible.

Erich [00:05:08]:
That's a lot. Every 6 months to a year for the 1st 19 years of my life.

Jennifer [00:05:14]:
Yeah. Wow. It's a lot of moving.

Ashlee [00:05:16]:
A lot of I mean, you've seen so many things, though. Like, my brain is trying to process that, and I'm like, that's you know, you yeah. That's that is a lot and seem

Erich [00:05:24]:
When I've had to do background checks to ask for the last 10 years of addresses when I first was going after some more major jobs like law enforcement when I was hitting 18, 19 years old. I had to ask for additional sheets of paper, and I had to speak with my dad to get addresses because we lived so many places. I just couldn't remember the addresses or everywhere we had lived. So it was entertaining turning in a 3 page packet of all the addresses they're asking for in the last 10 to 15 years. They're like, you're not kidding.

Ashlee [00:06:02]:
I didn't even think about that, but that is so true.

Erich [00:06:05]:
It was challenging. And I couldn't imagine, like, the difficulty getting into a federal job at that point of, like, hey. We need to do your top secret clearance, and now we need to do a deep dive of your background over the last 15 to 20 years. And so we need to go to all these places and interview your neighbors, and they're gonna be like, what? Maybe maybe not. Maybe. Maybe not. This is gonna cost a little bit too much money out of the budget to get this one person their clearance.

Jennifer [00:06:42]:
Just to say, hey. The the poor guy that got the duty of doing yours, that would be kind of a small straw that they pulled on

Ashlee [00:06:48]:
that. Yeah. I can't really hope they went back only a few years there. You know?

Erich [00:06:54]:
It I I wouldn't be surprised if they hit your number 4 and just gave up.

Ashlee [00:06:59]:
Yeah. I'm sorry.

Jennifer [00:07:02]:
You're like, just choose the one that was sending us all these places. Just you'll use my dad's. You send us to all these places. Like, go to his file. Right?

Erich [00:07:11]:
Yeah. Pretty much. Like, just contact the FBI. They'll have everything you need.

Ashlee [00:07:16]:
Right. Right. I mean, it sounds like there was just a ton of exposure for you, whether it be life or just first responders in general. So if you don't mind giving us a little bit of what was it like growing up, you know, with parents as first responders?

Erich [00:07:30]:
So my mom was pretty hard line growing up. I'm seeing this how she would stay at home, and she used to be a Maryland state trooper. And I don't know how familiar you are with Maryland State Police. But when my parents were troopers and when they first got out, and I believe it's still a common theme and catchphrase with Maryland State Police is one call, one trooper. So the attitude is no matter what the call is, no matter how bad it is, one call, one trooper. That's all you need. So and that was kind of the attitude and mentality they had is you need to be tough. Doesn't matter what is going on, you need to be able to handle it yourself because they're bringing that culture and that attitude that they have in their professional life back home.

Erich [00:08:20]:
For example, when my dad was starting out at Maryland State Police when he patrolled the Eastern other. The minimum coverage was 2 troopers, and they did not have much in the way of local law enforcement back then. So, realistically, your backup could be 2 hours away if something goes sideways. And so they had that mentality in home life of you need to learn how to be independent and figure things out on your own because there won't always be help there for you. There won't always be somebody to watch your back. We won't always be able to be there for you. We're here to help and support you, but at the same time, you need to learn how to stand on your end.

Ashlee [00:09:09]:
Yeah. That's so fair. I think I've seen a little bit of that for myself, Jennifer. I don't know about you. Like, growing up, I definitely tough. A little bit more strict environment growing up. Definitely this, like, kind of suck it up mentality. Yep.

Ashlee [00:09:22]:
The you can't you can't be injured. You can't be sick. You're good. You got this. Like, suck it up.

Erich [00:09:27]:
It was definitely my parents. My dad was not around too much, especially as I was older because him working in counter terror, he would constantly be gone for weeks at a time. Shortly after 911 happened, one of the big moments that stands out in my mind is I went to a diplomat school in Germany, so we were considered a high priority target. So they deployed the German military to protect the school until parents got there to take kids home. Well, my dad gets there, picks us up, and we're driving back through a main through fair in Berlin right past the US Embassy, and it's under blackout conditions. Something I'd never seen before. All the windows are covered. No lights are shown.

Erich [00:10:18]:
The marine security guards and German military on the roofs of the accompanying barrack and the embassy with rifles. They had German military armored vehicles, tanks, etcetera, parked on the corners of it. And then when my dad took me home, 6 hours later, he was on a jet back to the United States to help investigate. And then when he got back a few weeks later, and then the invasion happened with Iraq. My dad was there for 5 or 6 months in Baghdad. Yeah. So having to be on the phone with him and hearing not just small arms fire, but indirect fire, like artillery rockets, things like that in the background was interesting. My mom was having to raise us on her own while he was in a war zone effectively being shot at.

Erich [00:11:13]:
And there was more than one time where I would hear him I would hear the small arms fire get closer. And then he would say, I gotta go right about the time you would hear gunfire almost right next to him because other personnel were engaging some kind of insurgents near the green zone. And he would hang up to assist in engaging the in insurgents and actually shoot at them. So it was a very interesting time period. My father was gone very often, and when he was home, he was very reserved, very quiet, especially with his experiences. Mhmm. And I think a lot of that was because I hadn't kind of been in that exposure to life threatening situations yet, and I wasn't kind of part of the fold of a first responder. As I got older and I got into firefighting and EMS, and we started talking about things I've seen, things I've done, had to do, we've started building a more close connection, and he's much less reserved.

Erich [00:12:25]:
And he's willing to talk with me more about his experiences because we share that kind of common link and bond now.

Jennifer [00:12:34]:
Yeah. Eric, I appreciate you sharing that perspective, especially kinda seeing how that changed the dynamic between you and your dad. And, I mean, I hope this is okay to you, but maybe some protection of, like, oh, I don't mean to necessarily share this with my kiddo, but at the same time as we grow and, you know, the in any, like, parent child relationship, when we become adults, that dynamic can change. And it sounds like for that, there was there's been more connection over jobs and things like that for sure. One thing Ashley and I had talked some about is resiliency and where do we find that. You know, hearing your dad on the phone and hearing, you know, shots fired behind him and things like that. Is there anything that kinda stands out or anything that when you reflect on that experience, it was like, oh, this was something that maybe we had as a family or something within myself that kinda helped do that?

Erich [00:13:28]:
With those experiences, I've always had kind of an intrinsic resiliency and toughness, I would say. Even growing up, I was very, resilient even to physical injury. I mean, growing up, I I had quite a few serious injuries. I had to get over 30 stitches in my left leg when we left in Germany and took a chunk out of the bone from a slip and fall where my knee went into the corner of a metal door, and it gouged a scoop like an ice cream scoop clean out of my knee. And I distinctly remember not yelling out in pain or anything and thinking, my leg is completely numb. And then I limped to the nurse's office. And when Right. Hey.

Erich [00:14:22]:
I need your help to patch up my leg. And the nurse was horrified and couldn't believe how calm I was That I wasn't screaming in pain, wasn't crying or anything like that, wasn't freaked out about the injury. So even with it wasn't just the physical aspect injury. For me, I always had kind of a mental toughness and a strong ability to compartmentalize from a young age to process and deal with things that most people wouldn't experience. I mean, aside from family who have service members in the military and things like that where they're actually in a combat environment, you're generally not going to experience the things like having those phone conversations Right. With my dad at a young age. So aside from my parents instilling those kinds of of values and how to handle and process and compartmentalize, I also had a substantial amount of exposure to what I would say would be high stress critical incidents even at a young age to where I learned how to effectively compartmentalize.

Jennifer [00:15:33]:
Yeah. And I I mean, I that Maryland state trooper mantra too, it does really show up. Right? Like, one call, It's interesting for sure. I appreciate you sharing that.

Ashlee [00:15:45]:
Absolutely. And I think it's interesting that you bring up that point of, like, hearing that when you were younger and kind of adapting to that just being life. Like, when you were younger and you heard that, was that, I'm sure there was a little bit of anxiety or fear? I don't know. Right? Maybe not. You can tell us. But as you've you know, how how did you kind of process some of that?

Erich [00:16:05]:
I would say that at that age, I just kind of accepted it as gospel, and I didn't really process it too much. I just went, okay. So that's that's how I am. That's how I have to be as a person in this world. So I didn't really process it or try and adapt it. It was just that's who I am now. So I just accepted it as that's the kind of person I have to be in this family, and that eventually became part of my persona. And I would say in a lot of ways, it still is.

Erich [00:16:38]:
I still have that very major independent attitude of I need to stand on my own 2 feet. And if I need support or help in some way, then I have failed in some way.

Ashlee [00:16:53]:
Which I think is the pros and cons a little bit. Okay. I was like, I think that's a little bit of the pros and cons of growing up in a first responder's family. It's like, so I'm so great that I have some of these characteristics and these traits, and I do feel independent and stuff, but then it's almost to a fault. Right?

Erich [00:17:10]:
Yes. Because you you reach that point where you are you may truly need help in some way, whether that's mental well-being, you're having a difficult time, physical well-being, something you're hurt or something's bothering you or you're very ill or professional, afraid to reach out for help because of the attitude of you need to be able to do it on your own. So it's good to have that independence, but it can also become a flaw and a downside to where you don't recognize when you do need help, and it's okay to reach out at the same time. And I think we see that as a common theme a lot in first responders in general when it comes to mental health, where it's I can't speak up, I can't say anything because then people will see me as weak, and then that's one of the reasons why suicide rates are higher, why addiction rates are higher, why alcoholism is so common. So I think that

Ashlee [00:18:16]:
my hitting it all. That's great.

Erich [00:18:18]:
I think my path to that was different than most, but I think the end result has a lot of common themes with a lot of other first responders

Jennifer [00:18:29]:
out there. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I appreciate you, yeah, hitting on all of that because it is true for sure. And, again, those experiences for you early on. I guess I do wanna ask, you know, part of Ashley and I's goal is about building some community, especially being kids of first responders and about our experiences. And, you know, I've worked with military families, and I think there's, you know, a lot of with the military community and support around, like, military kids. You know, you're talking about living overseas and, you know, go a diplomatic school.

Jennifer [00:19:03]:
Like, I don't know. Like, how does the FBI have community? Was your parents still connected some with the Maryland state trooper community? Like, was there some community around your family and these experiences? Though, maybe they were all different, but, like, just I don't know if that that makes sense, that question.

Ashlee [00:19:24]:
It does make sense.

Erich [00:19:26]:
Yeah. Tracking. So, my experience growing up was my parents, for the most part, they would try and have me make friends in various areas I lived in, meet neighbors, and things like that, especially before we moved over to Germany. But I quickly developed the mindset of why bother making friends. And that was because well, in 6 months, I'm never gonna see these people again, so why bother? Because this was especially in the time of, you know, the nineties, early 2000 where at best you had a aim, like instant messenger Right. And dial up Internet.

Jennifer [00:20:09]:
You didn't have an iPhone when you were? No.

Erich [00:20:11]:
No. No Facebook. No real Myspace or anything. So it was there was there was no easy way to stay connected and maintain friendships, and so I just wouldn't bother to make friends in the first place. Germany was really the first place that I tried to make friends, and that was because we were there for so long. Gotcha. So I made a few friends with other federal government employees' kids

Ashlee [00:20:40]:
at the

Erich [00:20:40]:
embassy that I would meet, and then we would do, like, baseball tournaments and stuff like that together, and we would spend time together. But then the people that I was closest to moved away, like, 2 or 3 years into the time that I was there, and they went back to the states. And we stayed for another 2 years. So I didn't really the last 2 years, I would say, have his many meaningful connections.

Jennifer [00:21:05]:
Gotcha.

Erich [00:21:06]:
And then when I came back to the states, I really struggled with making and maintaining friendships because of, 1, my independent attitude of I don't need

Jennifer [00:21:18]:
anyone. Exactly. That's kinda what led to that question

Erich [00:21:21]:
for

Jennifer [00:21:21]:
you, which you're sharing that. So okay. Yeah. That makes sense.

Erich [00:21:26]:
Yeah. So is the that independent mindset coupled with the, well, why bother? Because I'm never gonna see these people again anyway. Like, this is just how my life is. Even knowing that my dad was moving back to start settling down and getting ready to leave the bureau and retire, I still had that mindset because that was built up over my entire life, and that wasn't something that just disappears in a day or 2 even knowing that I'm not gonna move really anymore across state lines or country lines. So But I as you've had so

Jennifer [00:22:01]:
much, though. You've moved so much.

Erich [00:22:03]:
Like Yep.

Jennifer [00:22:05]:
Well, take us a little bit into your career and your decision, to, again, break the mold and get out of law enforcement.

Ashlee [00:22:13]:
Well, and I was thinking too along the lines of that. No. I love that because, yeah, let's let's go let's I wanna know the mold breaking for sure. And then I also wanna know too because, like you said, there is a little bit of a challenged transition into, you know, like you just said, as a child coming back and, like, trying to make friends. But we know that in first responder culture, it's it's very tight knit. Right? Like, a lot of places are very tight knit. So walk us through yeah. Walk us through a little bit of all of that.

Ashlee [00:22:39]:
How that up, Jeffrey?

Erich [00:22:41]:
Well, are we talking about the start initially of how I got into being a first responder?

Ashlee [00:22:48]:
Yeah. Well, why don't we do why don't we definitely do what made you choose kind of fire, that that lane first?

Erich [00:22:55]:
Oh, that's that's a fun one, and the simple answer is teenage rebellion. My father really wanted me to follow in his footsteps and go into the FBI or state police or follow my, half brother's career path of the marine corps. And I was 17, 18 years old and decided I would rebel and take my dad off and join the volunteer firehouse that was 3 minutes down the street because my dad, Eric. Yeah. My dad was like, you are not gonna be a fireman because he had a negative opinion of him back then because he used to deal with really rural volunteers on the shore, and he had had a lot of bad experiences. So he had a negative opinion of firemen in general, and I knew that was a surefire way to take him off. So I put in my paperwork and joined the firehouse, and my mom had to convince my dad not to toss me out of the house because I was 18. And I would say, nowadays, he's very proud of me because of the accomplishments that I have made over the course of my career.

Erich [00:24:17]:
Initially, starting out, he was not supportive in the slightest. He just would grumble a little bit, but over time, he would say less and less about it as he learned more about my career trajectory and how things were going. And nowadays, he has said more than once that he's very proud of me and everything that I have accomplished over the course of my career. Because while it doesn't feel like I've accomplished too much personally, I do recognize objectively I've done more than the average person has.

Jennifer [00:24:53]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And nothing like a first responder family that the rebellion is to run into burning buildings. Like, but, you know, like, you're still doing some hero stuff, but, yes,

Ashlee [00:25:07]:
how dare you?

Erich [00:25:10]:
Very, very accurate. And and that's kind of a comical thing because that's not how the typical teenage rebellion would go. It would be, you know, I'm gonna smoke weed or I'm gonna stay out late at night, and I'm not gonna come home until 1 in the morning or I'm gonna drink a beer. It's nope. I'm gonna join the firehouse, and a year later, I'm running into a burning building after I've done my fire one training. So, I mean, very, very different method of teenage rebellion, a lot more dangerous than the typical one.

Ashlee [00:25:44]:
I'm glad that your mom

Jennifer [00:25:46]:
had some good, negotiation skills and was able to keep you in the house.

Ashlee [00:25:50]:
So you were

Jennifer [00:25:51]:
homeless and at the firehouse.

Ashlee [00:25:53]:
Oh my gosh. How true is that? Right?

Erich [00:25:55]:
They had offered to let me move into the firehouse as well. Like, the the guys at the firehouse because there were several living guys already at the firehouse, and they're like, well, if he throws you out, there's a free bunk.

Jennifer [00:26:08]:
Oh, god.

Erich [00:26:09]:
So Well,

Ashlee [00:26:09]:
and that

Erich [00:26:10]:
I had a place to go.

Ashlee [00:26:11]:
That's amazing. So is that is that was that a positive then kind of emotion for you in terms of, like, being accepted by them? And and do you do you like the brotherhood of being in, like, a firefighter?

Erich [00:26:24]:
So I I did over time, but I will say that my initial forays in the firefighting, I never really felt as part of the group. I never really felt as part of the brotherhood like that. I always felt as if I was kinda standing on the outside because I wouldn't go out and drink and party with them, and everybody was, like, big drinkers and big partiers and going out and doing crazy stuff. And I never wanted any part of that, so I I never wanted to drink heavily or do any of those things. And so I wasn't really with the group as part of the in crowd. I would just kinda be there, and they would know me, but it wasn't as tight knit for me as for a lot of people. I would say it took me a while to develop any real connections in the first responder world that were tight knit. I do have some people that I would say I'm very close to and that I know I can count on and if I need anything at any time, but it took me a lot longer than I think people would expect to develop those connections.

Erich [00:27:33]:
I would say it wasn't until 7 or 8 years in that I really had close connections and close knit bonds with people. And I think it was just because I wasn't part of the click and doing the same things as everybody else. So they didn't see me as part of the group.

Ashlee [00:27:52]:
Yeah. But good for you for staying true to who you are, you know, and doing what you wanted to do and paving your own path. You know? Yep. That's, again, another really good example of that resilient part of you. So Yeah. Good for you for doing that.

Erich [00:28:05]:
It was difficult for sure, but it was one of those things that I believed in that I just didn't feel the need to do to be popular. I was fine with not being popular and not being part of the group if it meant that I could continue to do my own thing and do what I believed in. Wasn't easy, of course. But

Ashlee [00:28:24]:
Of course. Right. I was just yeah.

Erich [00:28:26]:
You had to accept not not having all that much in the way of friends and their more acquaintances. Having to accept that and not having much in way of people you were close to for a very long period of time wasn't the easiest thing to deal with.

Jennifer [00:28:43]:
Understandably. And then what led into more of the paramedic, the EMS side?

Erich [00:28:48]:
With the paramedic side of things, it actually started around the same time that I got into firefighting. One of my first calls riding with the firehouse was a pickup truck rollover into a field, and the person was severely injured and was medevaced out via helicopter to the trauma center. And all I had was CPR and first aid, and I'm watching these guys with EMT and stuff do patient care on this person. And I was like, well, I I know what I'm doing in a fire, but I have no idea what I'm doing on a medical call. And we run so many medical calls compared to fires, and it just it bothered me. And so I went out, I got my EMR, my emergency medical responder. And then I went, well, this sucks because at this level, I can't do really anything whatsoever. It's just it's such a low level that I can't do any of the things still that I'm watching all these other people do.

Erich [00:29:52]:
I don't really understand what's happening still. So I went and got my EMT, and I did that for a few years. And then it was watching paramedics treat patients and pushing these medications and doing these procedures that I still couldn't do and hearing them mutter what sounded like voodoo witchcraft. And Mhmm. I'm not understanding what's happening, and it bothered me because I've always been a very analytical personality and a critically thinking personality. And while firefighting is very physically intensive, it's more light on the critical thinking and analytical aspect in a lot of ways than medicine. So I decided I wanted to do more that would let me work that part of myself and work on my critical thinking, my reasoning, my analytical abilities. And so I went and I got my paramedic, and then I kinda hit the upper level because from there, there's nowhere to go in EMS.

Erich [00:30:53]:
You hit your paramedic. There's no level beyond that in the states. I started moving out laterally at that point and started exploring different pathways within paramedicine. I did all kinds of different work. And then over the last 4 to 5 years, I started working on actually doing research and reading literature and trying to learn far more than what I learned in paramedic school to try and increase my capabilities in the field. Because while we have protocols, the protocols, there's no, like, ceiling. There's no scope of practice on education, just on procedures and medications. Gotcha.

Erich [00:31:39]:
So I always figured the more I know, the better job I can do even with protocols established. And then I went from there and said, what else can I do? I reached out to our state medical director who I'd known for a few years and to a few other jurisdictional medical directors who are the physicians that are in charge of medical care for an agency, a county, or the state. And I started suggesting protocol ideas. Like, hey. Can we change this? Can we add this in the protocols? Because I think this will really be beneficial for patient care. And my first major change I made was 2 years ago now. I successfully added in a whole new medication into our state protocols that has really taken off, and 3 counties have adopted it as a protocol to use with more on the way, which is intravenous nitroglycerin, Really beneficial medication for very sick congestive heart failure patients in the field. And from there, I just started anytime I had a call where it didn't fit in the mold of the protocols.

Erich [00:32:52]:
I went, okay. How can I fix this so it doesn't happen again? And I would just bring it forward to the state as a proposal. I would do my research. I would study. I would write up a whole protocol. It would usually take me a month or 2 of work, of research, making phone calls to other departments across the country, get their input, see how they're implementing things if it's already being done. And then I would propose it and present it to a committee that consists of numerous physicians as well as other paramedics who are my peers, nurses from the hospitals, and etcetera. And I would have to defend that and articulate it in a way that I would be able to defend it against somebody with a physician level of education and potentially somebody who had who would be considered a subject matter expert and specifically what I was proposing, having to really thoroughly cover my bases to that extent to where I would be confident defending it against somebody who has 8, 9, 10 plus more years education and knowledge and background and expertise on the topic versus me in what I'm proposing.

Erich [00:34:06]:
So it was quite a learning experience and very humbling.

Ashlee [00:34:10]:
Yeah.

Erich [00:34:11]:
And I've been doing it quite a lot since then. Since my Nitro proposal passed, I then passed 2 more proposals that were in this year's update, July 1st, and I have 2 more proposals for next year's protocol updates as well. So I've been really rapid fire since I started doing it, and I started finding my passion for something where I can really have a positive influence, not just on a singular patient level when I'm running a call, but I can impact things on a statewide level and really impact a wide range of patients and have a very positive impact on a more large scale than I was before.

Jennifer [00:34:58]:
Well, I'm sure that will move into a national place too. You know, there's protocols where they're successful. Other states will happily take those. The other thing I wanna point out, and, you know, this is a very biased opinion. It's interesting to me and, like, listening to that accomplishment, Eric, was incredible, that how, like, anytime there was just a speed bump, you just push through and work further, and the achievement and things. And, you know, when Ashley and I first started this and she was talking about her experience, in getting her PhD, it was from that perspective of like, oh, here's a problem. I'll problem solve around it. And I just think that that's such a great skill, and I see that oftentimes, especially with people that I'm lucky enough to get to work with that they can really take something that feels like a wall and figure out how to get around it.

Jennifer [00:35:48]:
So that's awesome. And it sounds like that really feeds you too, like you said, to not just on the call, but in a broader stroke as well.

Ashlee [00:35:55]:
You can hear that passion coming through as he's talking about it, which is really incredible. I mean, that's awesome. And that's we need that. You know? So thank you for doing all that hard work and making change like that.

Erich [00:36:09]:
I would say it's part passion and part recognizing flaws in my personality as well and just using those in a positive fashion. Because I know I have 2 major flaws that are

Ashlee [00:36:24]:
Are you a human being? Oh my goodness. To one another.

Erich [00:36:28]:
I have a major sense of imposter syndrome pretty much at any given time, but I also have a borderline obsessive need for perfectionism.

Ashlee [00:36:40]:
Okay.

Erich [00:36:41]:
So I have this feeling of never being enough, and people are going to know that I'm a fraud and I'm a failure. I'm not as good as anybody around me, coupled with the need to have everything be perfect. I've started to leverage that more in a positive fashion over the last few years. And rather than use it to beat myself down and feel negatively about myself like I had in quite a few years past, which, of course, wasn't the best for my mental health, I've started using it to go, okay. I know I can't be perfect. It's an unattainable goal, but it's a goal I can always strive for nonetheless. How can I learn from what went wrong in this situation or what didn't go perfectly so I can improve for next time? So that even though I won't reach perfection, I can get as close to it as I can going down the road as I continue to build.

Ashlee [00:37:38]:
I mean, that's Number incredible. Yeah. I mean, god, I know. I think we both I think both our little therapist brains right now are like, woah. Like, everything's firing. That's extremely insightful, and just you put it so well. Like, that's incredible. And thank you for sharing that because I think that's you make such a great point of turning something that is maybe not our biggest strength, but you turned it into one.

Ashlee [00:38:01]:
Right? And that takes a lot of work, and that's awesome that you've decided to do that and you continue to do that. And I think that I resonate with that in a lot of different ways, so I'm really glad that you brought that up. And, again, like, I don't know. For me, I do know that I always I do strive, and I'll call myself out again as being vulnerable. But, like, I do strive. I've always strived to kind of, you know, like, make my make my parents proud or make my dad proud, and he did apply that pressure of wanting his children to be something. And so I think that I I don't know if if it all stems from there. It probably doesn't.

Ashlee [00:38:36]:
But it's this notion of feeling just that exact thing and continuing to try to push forward and make others proud and do something for myself too. So I appreciate you sharing that, Jennifer. I did not mean to cut

Jennifer [00:38:47]:
you off. You're fine. I wanna thank you for being so vulnerable and willing to share that. Like, that takes courage in itself. And then I think it's so powerful when we can take something that can feel like a bit of a curse and say, like, no. I can shift this and make it into something positive. And but is it, like, use my powers for good instead of evil? Like, you know, that you really take that on, I think, is super impressive. And since we are a little bit in that, like, mental health space, again, because you were so courageous to share.

Jennifer [00:39:20]:
What about the aspect of EMS and mental health and the culture around mental health within that kind of lane of first responding?

Erich [00:39:29]:
Happy to talk about it. I would say starting out and especially initially when I was in the fire service, I first roached the topic of mental health to one of the officers at one of my volunteer fire agencies because I was having a difficult time with the death and dying and some of the tragic incidents that I had been exposed to. And it was pretty much a, yeah, that sucks. Oh, well. There wasn't any effort to direct me to mental health resources, sit down and have an informal discussion, and help me work through it. It was just like, yep. It happens. Oh, well.

Erich [00:40:10]:
Like, you're gonna have to figure out how to deal with it. So there was no real structure or support for a lot of my time through, and I started developing that typical attitude of, well, I can't show any weakness because for 1, nobody will care. And 2, if I do show it, a lot of my peers will think I can't handle it. I can't hack it, and I don't belong in here anymore, and I'll get pushed out. My first few years when I started running a lot of major calls as an EMT, for those first few years, I could tell you the first name, last name, address, and describe the face of every single person who died in front of me. Because I was internalizing it so heavily, coupled with my previous personality flaws of perfectionism Right. And imposter syndrome. So I was internalizing the blame of this person's death is my fault Yeah.

Erich [00:41:13]:
Because I didn't act quickly enough. I didn't do this. This should have gone faster. This should have gone smoother. I should have done something different. So this person's death is on me. And it it was building up to a point where I was in a really dark place about 7 or 8 years in to the point where I ended up having to step away from EMS entirely for a year or 2, and that's when I started working in hyperbarics and doing occupational health. So it was a step back because I saw myself going down a very dark and dangerous road that I was most of the way, probably 2 thirds down already.

Erich [00:41:55]:
And, I got a mental health reset taking that time away from critical incident exposure and from that kind of culture. And, I went through paramedic school at the same time and, got my paramedic. I got into a fire department that I didn't really do well in. I just their culture was kind of some of the similar problems, and I just didn't I wasn't happy there. And I'd reached that point of recognition that if it's not a culture and it's not a place I'm happy with when I'm doing these kinds of things where it could potentially cost me my life from mental health that I need to leave and move on and find somewhere else that is more fit for me and my needs. And if I can't find that place, then I need to leave the field entirely. So I left, and I went to the agency I'm currently at, which I have been for 2 years. And the culture is a complete 180 in regards to mental health compared to anything I had experienced previously in my career.

Ashlee [00:43:09]:
Oh, that's

Jennifer [00:43:09]:
wonderful to hear.

Erich [00:43:11]:
I'll give you a good example of how things went for me recently. Last year, June 27, 2023 at 62625 in the morning. I pronounced a firefighter I knew dead from a house fire after we pulled him out of a house fire that I had been on scene for 2 and a half hours on while everybody was struggling to try and get him out. So pronounced him dead in the medic unit, transported his body to the hospital, and stood watch there at the doors to his room where he was in until the rest of the career fire representatives from his agency could get there and the chief officers and everything. And then we escorted his body from St. Mary's County, which is Southern Maryland to Baltimore City, which is about an hour and a half drive. So I was part of the convoy up there and then came back all the way to Saint Mary's, and I live in the northern end of the state. So I drove up there and back, was there for 3 hours for ATF and State Fire Marshall investigators to give my statement and sit there and try and process what I just went through because, you know, all the critical incidents I dealt with in the past being exposed to 50 plus people dying in 1 year from COVID and etcetera, failed a little bit in comparison to having one of our own and somebody who I knew die there, and I had to take the step of pronouncing him.

Erich [00:44:52]:
Because in Maryland, we have the legal authority as paramedics to pronounce death in the field. I don't call a physician in Maryland. I am legally empowered to do that, which is somewhat unique in the US that in Maryland, we can do that. Mhmm. So I couldn't hunt the decision off to somebody else, to a doctor, and say, well, no. I'm not the one that said he was gone. No. I said he was gone.

Erich [00:45:17]:
So I'm having to internalize those feelings of guilt and blame and shame that I pronounced him dead. And I said there's nothing we can do. We can't try. Going through all of that, I called my captain for my career agency because this happened in an, county that I volunteer in, not that I work in. So I called my career captain for my shift, and I said, this just happened to me. I work tomorrow. I'm not okay. I don't think I can come in.

Erich [00:45:48]:
And he said you're off the schedule. Don't worry about it. And then an hour later, I get a phone call from another shift captain who's the head of the system team.

Ashlee [00:45:59]:
Mhmm.

Erich [00:46:00]:
And he says, I'm here for you. I'm gonna be checking in with you every single day. We're gonna take you off the schedule for at least a week. If you need more time, let us know. And I ultimately had two and a half weeks off work that they just gave me. No penalty or anything like that. And they set me up free of charge even though it didn't happen in their jurisdiction, technically not workman's comp or anything, but with a therapist who works closely with first responders for my agency. And she actually comes in and does rides with us a few hours here and there to kind of maintain that close connection and relationship with us and understand what we're going through.

Erich [00:46:41]:
So I saw her every day for about a month except for when I was working. And then since then, I've been seeing her once a month, consistent, like, just to maintain my mental health and know that it's good to talk about those kinds of things openly. And that was a complete 180 from anything I'd ever experienced before. It went from a suck it up and deal with it to, hey. It's okay not to be okay. It's just not okay not to ask for help. Like, kind of a Kevin Hines kind of statement. And the fact that they were there and supported me and that all of my people on my shift at work knew about it and they rallied around me.

Erich [00:47:26]:
They didn't go he he needs to suck it up and deal with it. They went, hey. What do you need? They're checking in on me. The first time I was back at work, we got dispatched to a house fire, and I was supposed to be the responding unit. My supervisor canceled me off the call immediately and took it himself because he went, this is too soon. You shouldn't be on this call. You know, you need to, like, avoid that kind of stimulus. So I'm gonna handle that for you.

Erich [00:47:53]:
And a lot of my coworkers took that kind of initiative for a while of, like, hey. It's a house fire. I'm gonna handle it so you don't have to be there because we know this is too soon and too raw for you. So there's a lot more looking after me and a lot more of it's okay to talk about it and discuss it and seek help than I was used to ever before. And so nowadays, I'm very open and honest about the fact that I see a counselor. I see a counselor frequently. I see a therapist because I need one because of the stuff I've been through over the years. And I figure the more open I am about it to others, the more I can shift that paradigm and that mentality.

Erich [00:48:36]:
And maybe that one person who's a coworker of mine or somebody who knows of me, who looks up to me potentially, who's having a difficult time because of a call or a critical incident goes well. If he's open and honest about it with everybody he meets, and he feels no shame about it, and people respect him and recognize him as somebody who's accomplished and skilled in his field. Maybe it's okay for me to do the same. Maybe I don't need to feel that shame and that fear that I will no longer be accepted or seeking help anymore.

Jennifer [00:49:13]:
You know, I have to say I hear more of the other story about the support when it comes to mental health. It is amazing to hear this was your experience. And, again, and and your own courage to follow-up with the therapist to, like, share, you know, and not, you know, one call, one cough. Like, I think it's really wonderful that you kinda said, no. It's okay. And let me let other people know that it's through the support that helps me feel better. I hate that that was your experience too, having to go to that call.

Ashlee [00:49:43]:
Honestly, like, I know people won't be able to see this, but I honestly have, like, a little tears in my eyes because it's very refreshing to hear this. And you said it so beautifully, I mean, so perfectly. And and, honestly, I think something that's really hard as a therapist working primarily with first responders has been this organizational aspect and just how much that really can make a huge difference if they are supportive versus if they are not. And I'm so thankful that you found a place that is taking all the steps that I could ever recommend for a department to do to support to support their employees, their people, and to to give you guys what you need to make it through the career because that's so vital. That is so important. So thank you for opening up about that.

Jennifer [00:50:24]:
Absolutely.

Erich [00:50:25]:
Yeah. I think it's important to talk about because a lot of agencies have the former experience and not my most recent one. So I figured the more that I talk about it and share my experiences and, especially now that I'm relatively well known in my state, now that my name was in a newsletter, which still causes me a lot of stress, I figured that I can leverage that platform and that recognition for positive changes in more than just one aspect now. So not just protocols, but things like mental health, things like addiction. So if I can be open and honest about my mental health and how I'm taking care of myself and how I'm doing better because of it, maybe others will hopefully do the same, and I can make some little bit of a shift in at least my little area of the US. Absolutely.

Jennifer [00:51:24]:
Well, I mean, that's why Ashley and I are here for sure and why, you know, when the call hits home because we wanna be supportive to first responders and and talk about mental health in a supportive understanding way that celebrates, like, you as an individual, but also the support and the stress of a high stress job. So absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it is really powerful, your story, Eric, and and you being here and being a part of this and and just, 1, giving us your time. Like, who has that anymore? So that means the time. So great. Again, to be so honest, to be so vulnerable, to be so courageous, like, I can't I can't thank you enough. And I just think this is powerful for me just being here and and hope that it it really makes that impression too when it goes out.

Ashlee [00:52:13]:
I was just about to say there. I can guarantee you that you are making a shift by sharing your story. And so thank you so much for doing that and trusting us to do that with, and I don't know. Is there anything else? Is there any last

Jennifer [00:52:27]:
things that you would like to

Ashlee [00:52:28]:
oh, do you have more? Okay.

Erich [00:52:30]:
I got time, so I'm not at

Ashlee [00:52:32]:
all stuck anywhere. We might definitely have to restart this. I just was like, oh my gosh. I'm so blown away by everything.

Erich [00:52:39]:
I'm happy to stay longer.

Jennifer [00:52:42]:
Okay. Well, I just think that there's always I think first responders have good senses of humor. So I always I'm like, you know, we went heavy. Let's go a little light. You have a good funny story about having a dad with the FBI and the CIA, like, as a kid, like, that is hilarious or even, you know, your experience with Bayer or in, EMS.

Erich [00:53:05]:
Oh, I'm gonna have to think because I I have to reset my meter for the normal person versus, like, a first responder.

Jennifer [00:53:13]:
No. You're saying

Ashlee [00:53:14]:
That's the challenge

Erich [00:53:15]:
for me.

Ashlee [00:53:16]:
It's the

Erich [00:53:17]:
same issue with, like, gross and disturbing. My meter is different than an older person. Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer [00:53:23]:
Yeah. The gallows humor for sure. Well, while you're thinking, I do wanna share small world. Number 1, I was just in College Park, like, 3 days ago. And my I was I am College Park, and I was taking pictures. I'm trying to see my pictures, as I drove by. So my dad graduated from the University of Maryland. He's a a turtle, a chirping.

Jennifer [00:53:50]:
And then he actually he's gonna scream at me when he hears this because I can't remember. I don't think he was a trooper, but he was in Vietnam and then came back to the States and was at what's the base there in Maryland?

Erich [00:54:05]:
You're thinking? I'm blanking on the one, but it's the trooper twos out of for Maryland State Police. I'll have it for you in one second.

Jennifer [00:54:14]:
It's okay. Right. Well, anyways, he was on the police department there in Maryland around Prince George's County and all that area. So it is funny when you said that your parents were, Maryland state troopers. I was like, Small round. Like, my dad was on a department in Maryland for a very brief time when he was getting out of the army. So

Erich [00:54:36]:
I got it. Joint Air Force Base Andrews down in Forestville, Maryland. I'm pretty sure that's who it is. Either that or it's Patuxent Patuxent River Naval Air Base down in Saint Mary's.

Jennifer [00:54:50]:
Yeah. Well, anyway the

Erich [00:54:51]:
2 that stick out.

Jennifer [00:54:53]:
Yeah. It was very small world when you started talking about that experience. And, especially, like I said, I was just there, yeah, just a couple of days ago. I flew in late on Monday. So yeah. That would have

Erich [00:55:06]:
been good to do in person.

Jennifer [00:55:08]:
I know. Yeah. Only. It's only.

Erich [00:55:11]:
So I'm trying to think of funny off the top of that. Spot.

Jennifer [00:55:16]:
If you don't got one, you don't got one. It's okay.

Ashlee [00:55:18]:
I know. And then you said it so much better than me because my brain was just I was I was literally, like, oh, what like, what else do you wanna share? Like, give it all. Like, your brain was like, I'm so glad you saved me and brought in the structure because I was like, yeah. I love we do like to have funny stories.

Erich [00:55:35]:
Yeah. One of the ones that I can think of off the top of my head as a young kid was when I was in the US embassy in Berlin, and I was running around in in the halls of a restricted section of the embassy for the FBI. So it's behind doors that you have to have pin codes and stuff too because there's top secret and secret level information secured in safes and things like that. So it's not an area that people just wander around. Right. And I was, I think, 10 years old, 10 or 11 at the time. And I'm just kind of ADHD kid bouncing off the walls, running around like crazy, and I ended up getting into the stairwell of one of these sections. And I was wandering around the stairwells and ran into somebody in a suit who I believe was DEA.

Erich [00:56:37]:
Either that or he was some other federal agent. Because I remember seeing a badge on his hip. Yeah. And there was the very quick sudden screeching halt from both of us at the same time. Me of, like, oh, no. My dad's gonna be mad. And this guy of, who the

Ashlee [00:56:58]:
hell is this? And how did

Erich [00:57:00]:
they get into this area of the embassy that's supposed to be secure? And there's a 10 year old running around.

Ashlee [00:57:07]:
Oh my god.

Erich [00:57:07]:
So there's this very quick of, who the hell are you? What are you doing in here kind of response? And I told him who my dad was, and he just went, oh, you're Ed's kid. So he just literally walked me back up to my dad's office and sat me down in my dad's office right there again. And my dad was just like, alright. You know, if you're gonna run around, just do it when nobody else is here.

Jennifer [00:57:35]:
And that's when they input the policy of dumping yourself to work today anymore at the embassy.

Erich [00:57:41]:
It was it was kind of funny being in these secured areas as a kid. And Yeah. It led to some very eventful moments. Actually, when, when I was growing up, I actually took part with my dad in following somebody through the Berlin subways because he had been acting suspiciously near the US Embassy, had been taking pictures and everything. And my dad actually used me to help follow him through the subways for a bit and scope this person out and try and gather more intel to figure out if this person was potentially planning something against the US Embassy in Berlin. Of course, I was so young, I never heard if anything came of that.

Jennifer [00:58:31]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Erich [00:58:32]:
But it was kind of interesting. Like, my dad was basically teaching me intelligence tactics on the fly as a 10 year old of how to follow somebody incognito through subways in Berlin. So I'm, like, trying to do this stealthily like a spy at 10 years old and try and watch this guy and keep in contact with my dad Uh-huh. Hopping between subways.

Ashlee [00:58:59]:
That sure puts my ride alongs to shame.

Erich [00:59:05]:
I I got some interesting experiences. Mhmm. And then moving back to the states when I got older. I remember when my dad came back from a raid in PG County, and he was so tired after this raid that turned into a barricade for, I think, was 12 hours down in Prince George's County that ultimately ended in a fatality from the suspect. The suspect died. That I had to carry his ballistic shield and his other equipment inside the house for him because he was so exhausted. He couldn't go up the steps. So I'm in this suburban townhouse at, like, nighttime, and all these people and kids are out.

Erich [00:59:52]:
And I'm like, yeah. Here's a tac vest and a ballistic shield, and my dad's securing an MP 5 in in his safe and his FBI Bu car. So, like, I'm lugging this gear and all these people around us are like, what the hell is going on? Because he, of course, had an there's no marked FBI vehicles. My dad didn't publicize that he was an FBI

Jennifer [01:00:16]:
agent. Yeah.

Erich [01:00:17]:
So just one day, they'd see this unmarked vehicle and tactical equipment being carried inside by a teenager. So

Jennifer [01:00:25]:
there was local cops on the door the next day.

Ashlee [01:00:27]:
There was

Erich [01:00:28]:
a raised raised eyebrows for sure in the neighborhood for a while after that.

Ashlee [01:00:34]:
I love those. That is great. That is great.

Erich [01:00:38]:
It was an interesting childhood, I'll say I had some unique experiences growing up and got to travel a lot more than most kids would.

Jennifer [01:00:46]:
Yeah.

Erich [01:00:48]:
I've been to almost every continent in the world now except for Antarctica and Australia. I've been to every single continent in the world, because of all the travel ability we've had. So been to place places like Tunisia, Mallorca, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, different places in Africa. So I've done quite a lot of travel.

Ashlee [01:01:14]:
That is that is so cool.

Erich [01:01:17]:
So the trade off with friendships was I had travel experiences that I would never have been able to afford or do otherwise in my life and do and see things that the vast majority of other people out there could potentially never be able to do and most likely will never experience just because of my family dynamic and my father's career. So there was some trade offs, but there were positives.

Jennifer [01:01:45]:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And what a way to have a perspective too about, you know, seeing the whole world. I mean, that's incredible.

Ashlee [01:01:52]:
Mhmm.

Jennifer [01:01:52]:
Well, Eric, thank you so much. Again, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your stories, especially those were hilarious, but also, again, your courage and being so vulnerable. So appreciative of it and such a pleasure to

Ashlee [01:02:05]:
get to you. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much. And just don't forget that when the call hits home, Jennifer and I are here for you.