When The Call Hits Home | Episode 11: Understanding the Silent Burden

Ashlee [00:00:07]:
Hi. Welcome back

Jennifer [00:00:08]:
to When the Call Hits Home. I'm Jennifer Woosley, licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a first responder.

Ashlee [00:00:15]:
And my name is Ashley Gethner. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, also a child of a first responder. And today, we have a special guest on. Her name is Caitlin. So one thing that I do have to share before we even start questioning her and getting her story is that Caitlin actually is the reason that this is happening. So about a year ago, I actually saw it pop up on my Facebook, which is really exciting. I put a status out there for all children of first responders, and I was like, what what what do I do? Because I know I wanna do something, but what do I do? And I had all these questions, and Caitlin was so kind to take the time to reach out to me and have a conversation with me and and bounce ideas off of each other and things like that. So without Caitlin, I don't know that we'd be here.

Ashlee [00:00:56]:
So I gotta gotta give

Caitlin Sturges [00:00:57]:
her Thank

Jennifer [00:00:57]:
you, Caitlin. They can know her. Thank you. Right? I gotta give her I get to be here because of Caitlin.

Caitlin Sturges [00:01:02]:
Oh, awesome.

Ashlee [00:01:04]:
Yes. I gotta give a ton of credit, and so we are so excited to finally have her on and to learn from her and learn her story. And I'm gonna hand it over to you, Caitlin. So go ahead and introduce yourself and just let us know about you.

Caitlin Sturges [00:01:14]:
Alright. Well, my name is Caitlin. I am the daughter of a first responder. My dad was a police officer growing up, and I'm also the sister to a police commander. And I'm also the sister to a firefighter paramedic, and I'm the niece to a police officer. So I have a whole slew of first responders in my family and still to this day, still dealing with the effects of, you know, unfortunately, positive and negative effects of being, you know, a family member to first responders. It has definitely changed over the years. Yeah.

Caitlin Sturges [00:01:51]:
So there's

Jennifer [00:01:52]:
I appreciate that interaction and getting to know. And it sounds like, just a family of first responders with being even a niece. You know? That's just in the bloodline a little bit.

Caitlin Sturges [00:02:03]:
Yeah. So just tell us a little bit what that was like

Jennifer [00:02:05]:
growing up, with a first responder as a parent.

Caitlin Sturges [00:02:09]:
Well, honestly, I wanna say it shaped every aspect of who I am today in some way or another. So right now, let me preface this. I'm married to somebody who is a marketing director for Culligan. So he has a desk job. So I grew up and, you know, my dad was working nights or, you know, he he did his best to be present, but I feel like there's so many aspects of his job and it ended up affecting, like, the dynamic of our family. My parents ended up getting divorced when I was 4, and I think a lot of that is attributed to the stress of the job. My dad was in his prime as a police officer in the eighties nineties and then retired in 2011 from the Hanover Park Police Department. And he would use to take us on ride alongs all the time.

Caitlin Sturges [00:03:06]:
And I wanna say since I was 5 years old, we started going on ride alongs with him every other year. My brothers and I have 2 brothers. We would alternate and stuff. So it's different being married to somebody who, you know, stays in the same place and, you know, you don't have it's not like a life and death situation. So, like, you watch I watched my own dynamic of my own family being like, oh, I'm so thankful that, you know, I don't have to worry about, you know, my husband going off working nights or Mhmm. You know, and the stigma that's out there today. Whereas when I was growing up, it was just kinda like, okay. I hope my dad comes home tonight.

Caitlin Sturges [00:03:44]:
Or, you know, I I would hear all these stories that he would tell us growing up, and I just I couldn't believe it. Like, I was just, what did you say? Like, what happened? So that really shaped my interest in criminal justice. And, you know, we were raised, you respect law enforcement. Like, you're that that's it. There's no black and white. It's you respect law enforcement. So for me growing up, I guess I was so naive to think that because I only had positive experiences with law enforcement, I guess. Because Right.

Caitlin Sturges [00:04:21]:
Every time I would go on ride alongs with my dad, he really worked closely with the Latin Kings, and they're very prevalent in Hanover Park. And, I mean, he did a lot of community outreach. He did policing on the bike. He took me to teach DARE with him. He they him and his partner rented out an apartment in the one of the apartment complexes where the Latin Kings were, like, prevalent, and he would get to know, like, the their children or their brothers and sisters. And I remember there being a pool table and, like, a fridge, and they would just be, like, a positive influence so that, you know, like, if an emergency went down, like, they were there. They were he spent a lot of time there. And I We are

Jennifer [00:05:04]:
a safe place for people to show up in a place that was kinda not always good.

Caitlin Sturges [00:05:09]:
I I never saw, like obviously, I don't think that anybody would take their child into danger, and he would have never done that. But it was, like, every interaction, my dad was so kind and so genuine that I saw it. It wasn't, like, what the media makes it out to be, I guess. And this is in the nineties. Right. So I feel like it has significantly, significantly changed. And I wanna say by the time I got in high school, this goes back to my naive comment about how I just felt so proud growing up that I felt so comfortable. Like, yeah, my dad's a police officer, and I remember being one of the only ones growing up whose dad was in law enforcement.

Caitlin Sturges [00:05:53]:
I was so proud to say that. Yep. And I always thought like, oh, that's so cool. And, like, people would ask questions and, you know, I'm like, yeah, I gotta go on a ride along. Like, I gotta miss school to go on ride alongs.

Jennifer [00:06:05]:
Feeling really gypped.

Ashlee [00:06:06]:
I've been Okay. Jennifer really got gypped.

Caitlin Sturges [00:06:09]:
And Hi.

Jennifer [00:06:10]:
This is multiple children. I'm like, I Yeah. I'm I'm gypped.

Caitlin Sturges [00:06:15]:
And My dad has

Ashlee [00:06:16]:
It's an Illinois thing. It's an Illinois thing, Jennifer. Yeah.

Caitlin Sturges [00:06:20]:
But I feel like it was the I it was the time in my life. I mean, we would count down the days. We would fight, like, my brother and I fight everywhere. And we'd be like, you gotta go last. I'm like, no. I didn't. Like, you know, we would fight over it. And we became close with a lot of the police officers, and it was just awesome.

Caitlin Sturges [00:06:40]:
Just absolutely awesome. And then I wanna say by the time I got in high school, you know, like your friends start getting in trouble and they start doing, you know, questionable things. Yeah. I truly never did anything because I was so afraid to step out of line that it was just like in my head, like, okay, you don't you don't do drugs. You know, you don't go do this. You don't do that. So I was I see I walked a very narrow path because I didn't wanna get in trouble. I didn't wanna embarrass my dad.

Caitlin Sturges [00:07:11]:
You know, I didn't I didn't wanna deal with those consequences.

Jennifer [00:07:14]:
Mhmm.

Caitlin Sturges [00:07:14]:
Because his and my relationship was, like, so important to me. Like, I don't bring shame to your family.

Jennifer [00:07:20]:
Mhmm. That

Caitlin Sturges [00:07:21]:
that's just how it is. And when my friends started getting in trouble, I remember, like, one time, they would, like, intentionally, like, say things, like, all all cops are pigs and kinda thing. I'm like, what does that mean? Like, that just kinda took me aback. Like, they would intentionally Yeah. Say it loudly in front of me so that, like, I would hear the comment.

Jennifer [00:07:40]:
And when you say that

Ashlee [00:07:42]:
you're saying that's high like high school. Right? Sorry.

Caitlin Sturges [00:07:44]:
Yeah. This is like high school. So Okay. I graduated in 2007, and that's really when I feel like the shift started for me personally. I don't I can't say, you know, that that's when it, like, shifted for the world. But in my life, personally, like, that's when everything shifted for me because I was like, okay. I was like, why are police officers called pics? Like, I never heard that before. I'd only ever heard positive things.

Caitlin Sturges [00:08:10]:
Yeah. And so as more and more time went on, like, more and more things kept happening. And then it was almost like I was getting blamed. It it felt like like people get in trouble, and then they would, like, intentionally be like like, excuse my language. They'd be, like, suck the police and, like, you know, like, all this stuff. And I'm sitting here, like, why? Like,

Ashlee [00:08:30]:
I know that I I'm loving everything I'm hearing, and I know that something that I opened up about in a probably one of the first episodes was this that moment when I realized, like, woah. Things aren't so so nice here. Yes. And I don't know about you and if you can relate or speak on this at all, but for me, like, I did personalize it pretty heavily. Like, I remember being like, woah. You're talking about my that's my dad. Like Yes. That's my uncle.

Ashlee [00:08:55]:
That's my, you know, that's my family you're talking about. And so can you give us a little about how you felt personally when this is

Caitlin Sturges [00:09:01]:
what you said? I was actually very upset about it. I internalized it a lot because I felt like I was being targeted almost in a way. Because a lot of these people who were saying this were people I grew up with. So people who knew knew my family, knew my dad, knew my uncle, like knew that my brother wanted to go in law enforcement. These were people that I've known since we were babies. And then it felt like I was personally being targeted because they knew I went on ride alongs, you know, and they knew I was, like, very supportive. And maybe they knew I was naive too, but I was just it really hurt my feelings because I was like, wow, I would never say that about your dad. You know, like, I would never say disrespect somebody like that.

Caitlin Sturges [00:09:46]:
And it was confusing too because I know what goes into putting your best on, lacing up your boots, getting a cup of coffee before you leave the house. I know what that's like, and I know what's going through their head, And I know what they're sacrificing every time that they walk out the door. So for me, I was just like, what the hell? Like, you don't you have no idea. Yes. Like, is this the last time I'm gonna see my dad? Oh. But you get to you get to say that, you know, cops are pigs and, like, all this stuff. I'm like, but you don't know the emotion that goes into every time putting your gun on your holster. Hopefully, I don't have to use this tonight.

Caitlin Sturges [00:10:29]:
Bye, Caitlin. I love you. I hope I get to see you again. Like, you don't know what that's like.

Ashlee [00:10:34]:
And I think that that hits obviously, that hits home for me. I did share a little bit on our social media page of a Facebook post that I had put back in the day because that was me to a tee. Like, I used to cry. Yeah. Especially when things started to change in this world. I would go home and I would stay up literally all night if I had to just to see my dad walk through the door. Yeah. Like, I just wanna see my dad one more time.

Ashlee [00:10:58]:
Like, I would get so anxious about it and something that I developed. So I my dissertation was all on the civil unrest and how it impacted active law enforcement officers. And one of the things that came out of that, one of my biggest findings okay. Look at everybody's getting my findings now. You gotta read it everybody. But one of my biggest findings out of this though was this huge theme of the impact to the family. And I'm not kidding when I say that I had officers tell me, like, their children developed. Like, I had one officer literally.

Ashlee [00:11:29]:
It's it it probably will never leave my my brain, but her child developed seizures. And the doctors said that these seizures were brought on by the immense stress and anxiety because their parent was the frontline of civil unrest. And, you don't stop to you know what I mean? Like, I don't think a lot of people stop to think about that, and now we're in a world of social media. Mhmm. And these children of first responders are are seeing it live, getting it at school, getting it on social media, and I can't even fathom yet.

Jennifer [00:11:57]:
Well, I just wanna I appreciate, actually, that point too about the family because that's really what I wanted to come back to. And and, Caitlin, I appreciate you sharing that, And I hate that that's, you know, the experience. And, yeah, I know that we're here because of that in terms of how you're talking and describing what your dad was doing and yet and and to put on that clinical hat, like, how that impacts the family.

Caitlin Sturges [00:12:22]:
Mhmm.

Jennifer [00:12:23]:
Right? And and the reason, you know, not to overspeak for you, but thinking about, well, I'm I'm gonna take that personal because that's an impact to this entire family unit. Yes. You know? That it's not just a sacrifice of an individual. It's a sacrifice of a family. And, you you know, I'm I'm always gonna come back to this place because I think the military has utilized and understood that and and and put some resources in its place. I just don't think we have that as first responder families. And so I think your ability to share that, it does just share so much light and and because it feels so isolating. I mean, actually, you and I really bonded over, I think, some of these conversations, and and recognizing, like, oh, yeah.

Jennifer [00:13:06]:
That's what I went through alone, and there was kinda nobody else.

Caitlin Sturges [00:13:10]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very lonely place to be, especially when it when it's such a giant shift to when it was, like, sucking to now it's just this, like, negative, like, shameful thing that you are now a part of. Mhmm.

Jennifer [00:13:27]:
I do.

Caitlin Sturges [00:13:28]:
Yeah. And the part that really kills me so like as a mom, you want your kids to experience, like, the highs that you experienced as a kid. Mhmm. And I always pictured growing up. Like, oh, if I ever have kids, I want them to be able to be like, oh, yeah. My grandpa was a police officer. Mhmm. You know? Or my uncle is a police officer.

Caitlin Sturges [00:13:52]:
You know, my uncle is a firefighter, you know, kind of thing. And ever since so, I mean, I had Amelia, my oldest, in 2016. And that's really I feel like when things shifted in my mind where I was like, okay. We gotta keep this quiet. Because you don't you can't trust anybody. And you don't know how somebody's gonna react anymore to, oh, yeah. My grandpa was a police officer or, oh, yeah. My uncle's a police officer kinda thing.

Caitlin Sturges [00:14:25]:
And it's just like we got to the point where, like, for her safety and for her mental well-being, we just told her, like, unless somebody, like, you trust SC, we're like, just don't tell anybody. Because and, like, that kills me because I used to be like, my dad's a police officer. And I wanted her to be like, my grandpa was a police officer, you know, kinda thing. But she doesn't share that with pretty much anybody because we just instilled it in her, like, just don't say it anymore. Because no matter what, I feel like no matter who I tell it to to this day, any association with a police officer, you're automatically deemed racist. Like, that's how I feel. And they're like, those are many experiences that I have had where it's like, well, how can you support the police if they're doing x, y, and z, you know, to this community of people? And then I'll always say, like, my support for the place is unwavering as long as it's justified. Like, that will never change.

Caitlin Sturges [00:15:29]:
No way to put it. As long as I feel that the actions were justified or whatever the circumstance, I will always support them. Because that is my entire like, that is my entire upbringing. Like I said, like, you support law enforcement as long as it's justified. Yeah. So I always get that vibe that, you know, I had a hard time so I'm actually finishing up graduate school and I'm gonna become a board certified behavior analyst. Okay. And our field doesn't really have any research with law enforcement, and that kills me because we have so much to offer.

Caitlin Sturges [00:16:09]:
And my field is absolutely wonderful with, you know, like, research on autism, different disabilities, and all that stuff.

Jennifer [00:16:16]:
It's incredible discipline. Yeah.

Caitlin Sturges [00:16:18]:
Yeah. So I was like when I was writing when I joined the graduate program, I was like, I'm doing something with law enforcement with this. I'm I'm changing it. I am one of the first people in our field at my school specifically that did my thesis working with law enforcement, and I did a lot of research on the different things that law enforcement are trained on. And it's mostly the topography of behavior. So what does behavior look like? Someone's walking with their hands in their pocket down the street and it's 90 degrees out, and they're wearing a trench coat. K. What do you think that that person's doing? So that's like the topography of it, but nobody's training police officers on the functions of behavior.

Caitlin Sturges [00:17:01]:
There's 4 functions of behavior, access to a tangible item, there's access to attention, social gratification, there's escape conditions, and first, I'm forgetting the 4th one. I'm just like so in it right now.

Ashlee [00:17:15]:
So I'll just

Jennifer [00:17:16]:
wait it goes sometimes. Yeah.

Caitlin Sturges [00:17:17]:
Yeah. Yep. Anyway, I'm just gonna continue my thought. Basically, they are not trained on why behaviors happen. So if they see somebody, like, on a park bench, you know, rocking back and forth screaming, they're gonna be like, okay. This person needs I need to call an ambulance. You know? But they're not gonna really understand why are these behaviors happening. So they're not gonna be able to generalize to the next situation.

Caitlin Sturges [00:17:43]:
Like, let's say they encounter somebody at the grocery store screaming and pulling their hair kind of thing. They're not gonna make that connection and be like, okay. So this is automatic. That was the other one, automatic. They're not gonna generalize that and take what they learned from that situation about why the similar behavior is happening in a different environment. So my goal for that was to, if anything, give them more leverage when they're out working the streets and being like, okay. So somebody is stealing a water bottle because it's like a 100 degrees here today. Somebody is stealing a water bottle.

Caitlin Sturges [00:18:17]:
Why did they steal that water bottle? They had to get access to something. So they had to get access to intangible. They had to get access to water. You know? So it's showing more of, like, the humane part of behavior rather than just what it looks like. You know? That's where that profiling comes in. So I was trying I I want to change that. I actually trained several police officers, and I did I created, like, a whole training for them on the functions of behavior and why they happened. And then I wrote a whole paper about, like, civil unrest and the statistics of every everything today.

Caitlin Sturges [00:18:55]:
I was just trying to knock out these, like, beliefs that are there that are not true. I I even talked to several police officers how they don't feel like profiling exists. Like especially when you're, you know, when you're gonna go pull somebody over, you can't really see someone's skin color in a car a 100 feet in front of you. That car had to do something. The behavior of that person had to trigger something in you that you're like, oh, I should keep my eyes out so I'm gonna pull this car over. And then just so happens that somebody is a certain color or a certain gender, something like that. That's where that profiling comes in and that's where they're like, we aren't profiling people, you know. So it it's just it's interesting to hear.

Caitlin Sturges [00:19:41]:
Sorry. That was, like, a whole tangent.

Ashlee [00:19:43]:
You're okay. No. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. Jennifer, did you wanna add to that?

Jennifer [00:19:49]:
Appreciate it. It sounds like kind of bridging your experience and taking that into how to educate people in their field that's a little bit different. I keep coming back to this point. It kinda started in our first episode with Ashley and her dissertation, but it really sounds like a first responder's kid will take an experience and, like, go with it much further. I don't think that we are usually brought down by situations. Like, we take from it and say, okay. I'll make something positive Mhmm.

Caitlin Sturges [00:20:18]:
Out of this.

Ashlee [00:20:19]:
We sure do try to figure it out, don't we?

Caitlin Sturges [00:20:22]:
Yeah. Because there was no sense made of it growing up. It was just kind of like, okay. This is the situation or you're kinda just left to your own advices to figure it out as a kid. And it's confusing, especially, like, again, as you're getting older and then it's shifting to a negative experience. It's so confusing because you're like, what just happened? Right. Because in my eyes, their profession is so noble that I can't imagine I guess I should preface it with this. So my younger brother went into the military before he became a paramedic firefighter.

Jennifer [00:20:59]:
Wow.

Caitlin Sturges [00:20:59]:
And I remember he was 19, and he went straight into the navy. And I just we were always so close growing up, my brothers and I. And I I felt the same pride that he went into the military that I do for my brother who's a police officer. So, like, that still to this day, I cannot make the distinction of, like, keyboard warriors and, like, all this stuff. How they they just know that the way that things are. And it's like if you had to sit through and watch the news, and you haven't heard from your loved one in 3 months, wondering if they're alive or dead overseas. And, like, if you had to sit there and wait like, if you had to see my mom crying every night waiting to hear from her son, and the way that she still does that with my brother, because as a police officer, I mean, you don't know. He's been in such horrible situations.

Caitlin Sturges [00:21:58]:
He's gotten hurt in the line of duty. I mean, he was on the SWAT team. He saw so many horrible things. Many horrible situations all back to back to back. And it didn't just affect him and his family, it's affected our whole family.

Jennifer [00:22:13]:
Right. Mhmm.

Caitlin Sturges [00:22:14]:
So I it to me, like that pride is still the same. Whether it be a soldier, or a police officer, or a firefighter, whatever. That that nobility, like the importance of that position, I know I could never do it. So the fact that somebody else is okay with, you know, risking their life and giving up everything at the drop of a hat to help somebody is beyond me. Like, I can't I can't make that make sense in my head how people just sit behind a keyboard like I was saying or, you know, on the news media. I think they make this out to be such a horrible, horrible profession to be in or, like, you chose this. Like, you chose to this kind of profession. You chose to risk your life kind of thing.

Caitlin Sturges [00:23:05]:
No. That's not what they did. They chose to help people, and that's the distinction that drives me insane because nobody wants to talk about that piece. It's always like you chose this profession. You chose to put your family through that, and that's gonna be farther from the truth.

Jennifer [00:23:21]:
Yeah. That's true. Especially when you, like, really understand it as a calling. And to be a service to others is such a unique thing. You know? Whether it's, you know, a service member, a firefighter, or a police officer, it really is a service to others.

Caitlin Sturges [00:23:39]:
Mhmm.

Jennifer [00:23:39]:
And that's that doesn't usually leave us in a lot of good places at times because humans are difficult. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:23:48]:
It was so

Caitlin Sturges [00:23:48]:
nice for 2. Yeah. Like, coming coming out of my degree as a behaviorist now and, like, seeing why things are the the way that they are, it drives me insane because we're only furthering this belief all that nobody needs to be held accountable anymore. And it drives me nuts because I'm sitting here, like, we wonder why the world is the way we the way that it is. We wonder why that there's school shootings. We wonder why you can't go to the grocery store without me personally. My head's a slippable. We wonder why the world is the way that it is when we have taken away that accountability piece, and we've taken away those soft social skills.

Caitlin Sturges [00:24:30]:
We I don't even have to have account we don't have to do this right now. I could just type everything I wanna say to you.

Jennifer [00:24:35]:
Can you explain what a soft social skill is? Just for people that maybe we don't know.

Caitlin Sturges [00:24:39]:
Yeah. So, like, I don't have to make eye contact with you. I don't have to say hello to you. I don't have to do any of that anymore. I could just look at my phone and, you know, I could just turn my back, and it's acceptable. It's acceptable to do that now. And that blows my mind because, I mean, I'll be walking my dogs in my neighborhood, and I'll say hi to everybody. And then I've had, like, responses now where it's just like people ignore you or they're like they flat out say, like, now is not the time to say hi.

Caitlin Sturges [00:25:08]:
And I think I'm just like, wow. That's just like a human nicety. Do like, just to look somebody in the eye, talk to them. I mean, I've worked with students before who would come into the classroom, immediately sit right at their desk, and wouldn't even say good morning, wouldn't say hi to you, wouldn't the door would slam right on the person next but behind them and it I was like I'm like, good morning. Can and then, again, no response. Good morning. Like, until you respond and have a conversation and look me in the face, like, we are losing those skills. And it's it's so disheartening because I worry for the future.

Caitlin Sturges [00:25:47]:
I worry for the future of my kids, you know, and I want them to continue to be kind and to hold the door for the person behind them and all that stuff. So

Ashlee [00:25:56]:
Well and Yeah. Sorry. My my thought process here a little bit too is kind of connect I'm kinda connecting the dots from when you when we first started actually talking today to now. Like so how much of that, though I do think it's a it's a new way of just parenting in general has changed a lot. Right? And then I wonder how much of that is the way we were raised. Right? And then how much of that falls back on

Caitlin Sturges [00:26:24]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:26:24]:
You know, like like first responding and stuff like that or or maybe generational things. I don't know the exact answer, but what I know is that it it goes back to, like, respect being the baseline of what it's like to be raised by a first responder. At least that's what it was

Jennifer [00:26:42]:
for me.

Caitlin Sturges [00:26:42]:
Mhmm. That's what it will always be for me.

Ashlee [00:26:43]:
And so then, yes, I feel the exact same way, but then I'm always torn on what is is that because of the way we were raised and who we were raised by? Yeah. And, of course, I do think as a child of a first responder, we we feed into the more strict kind of parenting roles that that we had. But one thing that you mentioned that I'm interested in a little bit here too, and I'm interested in it because I married somebody who thank god for him, shout out, he's our producer. He's all the best here. So Oh,

Jennifer [00:27:09]:
he is one of

Ashlee [00:27:10]:
the best. Thank god for Danny Geffner, everybody. But he didn't have any, experience Mhmm. With a first responder. Right? So he's complete opposite world than I am with this, and I wouldn't say that he's disrespectful by any means. I mean, he's still a respectfully human and his, you know, his parents taught him that, but are there differences in the way that him and I would probably parent and probably see things absolutely? Mhmm. Right? So, like, do you see any of that with your husband now? Because you're so enmeshed, like, just like me. I have uncles, you know, everybody.

Ashlee [00:27:45]:
But you're you're so enmeshed in it. Like, how do you how has that been different for you now marrying someone who's outside of that of this world?

Caitlin Sturges [00:27:54]:
Yeah. So that's a really good question. Fortunately, like, my husband's dad, my father-in-law used to he's from Louisiana. So he used to work in the prisons, but he would ride on horseback, and he was like a prison guard on horseback. My husband's family is very sometimes southern. I'm just gonna say it like southern traditional views. You know? So you respect law enforcement or you get the back back of a hand. You know? So that's kind of how he was raised.

Caitlin Sturges [00:28:24]:
His dad did that before he was born. So I don't think he ever experienced it firsthand. But I try and share these experiences with him and stuff, and he's just like, okay. It sounds cool. But I'm like, you're not as excited. Like, why aren't you so you know?

Ashlee [00:28:38]:
Like, why don't

Caitlin Sturges [00:28:39]:
you hold ride alongs?

Ashlee [00:28:40]:
Right. Exactly. Exactly. You. Well and and for me, it's been a big for him, it's been a big transition, I think, for us in general of, like, we are tough love through and through. Like, if my dad is not making fun of you and, like, giving you a really, really hard time Yes. Then he doesn't like you. Yes.

Ashlee [00:28:59]:
You know? And so, like, my husband at first was like, woah. Like, he is a giant scary man, and I don't know what to think of this. And I'm like, he's just messing around. You know? I'm like, this is not like, this is nor is a good sign. Like Yeah. This is normal. Now we've been together almost 10 years, so now they give it back to each other. But Yeah.

Ashlee [00:29:17]:
Like, you know, it's things like that that we're so I'm so used to that.

Caitlin Sturges [00:29:21]:
Yeah. That's just it.

Ashlee [00:29:22]:
You know, like, Jennifer, I'm sure you can agree. Right? Like, you're so used to that behavior that you don't see it differently. But then when you start to talk to people who didn't grow up this way, you're like, oh.

Caitlin Sturges [00:29:32]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. You You

Ashlee [00:29:33]:
don't say oh, you don't

Jennifer [00:29:35]:
So I I'd love to get, you you know, both of your guys' feedback on this a little bit. Just, you know, again, Caitlin, you you've shared so much. I was really I was an adult and, again, had a friend who had just married a law enforcement officer. And I happened to be hanging out with her, and it was like a group outing, and there were some other people there. And I think one of the other women there, she had just got a speeding ticket. And she, of course, was complaining about that. And my friend I mean, she became very defensive and, you know, kinda like

Caitlin Sturges [00:30:19]:
It was uncomfortable?

Jennifer [00:30:20]:
Well, and kinda came for the girl a little bit. And, you know, I just didn't say anything. And later, my friend kinda talked to me, and she was just like, you know, doesn't that drive you crazy and and stuff like that. And, I mean, I don't love it, but I've also like, that's been an experience for me for such a long time. I don't wanna say that it was kinda like water off the duck's back, but, like, it I I just don't take those things personal, and and there's been, you know, a multitude. And, again, a speeding ticket conversation is very different maybe than some other things we've talked about, but I don't know. I I I was thinking about that and kind of, I think, self analyzing myself a little bit of, like, oh, was there something wrong with me? Like, you know?

Ashlee [00:31:10]:
I do think it varies. Right? Like, I don't know, Caitlin, if you agree. I I feel like it does vary on topics because I've had that happen before too where someone just says something next to me either about a speeding ticket or, like, just something stupid. Like, oh, you know, that I don't know. Anything. Like, they've seen a video or they got in trouble for something else that really is minuscule, but it's the end of their world, and I get it. You know? And then they say something mad about the the mad bad, I should say, about the police, and you're like some there's sometimes where I am just able to be like, you're like like, in my head, I'm usually like, okay. Well, you're mad because you did something wrong.

Ashlee [00:31:45]:
You know? Like, I'm able to be like Well, I

Jennifer [00:31:48]:
don't get caught. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Caitlin Sturges [00:31:50]:
You know, no

Ashlee [00:31:51]:
cop, no stop type thing. You got stopped. I don't know what you want me to say. Like, you know, like, I I am able to, like I sometimes laugh at that stuff. That's probably wrong of me, but sometimes I do have to giggle because I'm like, I mean, most of the time, you know, yeah. Okay. Like, say what you gotta say. Do what you gotta do.

Ashlee [00:32:08]:
I think for me, it's just when I hear those, like, bigger statements, like all cops are murderers or

Caitlin Sturges [00:32:13]:
Yes.

Ashlee [00:32:13]:
Things like that that I can't like, my insides get, like, woah.

Caitlin Sturges [00:32:17]:
I that's when I can't keep quiet. I try to keep quiet. Like, if it's a speeding ticket situation, fine. But at the same time, I like, there's just something inside of me that always has to, like, point out what you were speeding though. You know what I mean? Like, but what were you doing that caused you to get noticed by the police in the first place? So it's like that goes back to my accountability pet peeve with people is just like, they weren't doing anything wrong. The police just, you know, happened upon you and just decided to give you a ticket kind of thing.

Ashlee [00:32:52]:
I will say really fast, though, like because I've been talking a lot more without my clinician's hat on today than I usually do. And and putting that back on for one second here for sure is that, like, there is beauty though in what I have learned to, like, learn from other people and to understand their perspectives on it and to have the open dialogue into because my my view isn't always correct, right, or my thought process. And and I do love to be able to have those open lines of communication and talk. And what I find is most of the time when I'm able to do that, we find such common ground.

Caitlin Sturges [00:33:26]:
Yeah.

Ashlee [00:33:26]:
And it's as simple as talking.

Caitlin Sturges [00:33:28]:
Mhmm.

Jennifer [00:33:28]:
Well and I will say this too, and and I definitely know I'm I'm the odd man out here, but I think in the full breath about having, you know, conversations, and it's important, you know, in us having these conversations. You know, I will say and and having a clinical hat, some of my experiences professionally were in places where, unfortunately, people and and a lot of times children had really bad experiences before the police were there. Mhmm. And I didn't have any control over that, especially children. They don't have control over that. And so, you know, I really professionally drew a pretty strong line about not letting clients don't really need to know that much about my personal life anyways. We're not here to talk about me, you know, when we show up to therapy. It's about, you know, what's going on for you.

Jennifer [00:34:24]:
But I definitely had a lot of awareness about that and that people do have bad experiences or, you know, the police show up on the worst day of their lives. And so, you know, just some of that kinda contentation. And I also, you know, wanna point out as well, even with the speeding ticket piece, humans don't love accountability because the feelings that that brings up with them. Right? Their shame

Caitlin Sturges [00:34:51]:
Mhmm.

Jennifer [00:34:51]:
Judgment, all that stuff. So it's much easier to blame this uniform because that's truly. Yep. You know, you don't know anything about that human being. Right? Because that's a whole different conversation if we know a human being. And so I think that those are some of the things that we can get patterns in. And so I didn't have a lot of like, that wasn't a hard choice for me. But I guess it was because I'm putting on this professional hat and because of what my profession is.

Jennifer [00:35:22]:
You know, like, if I worked in marketing like your husband Yeah. I might have paraphernalia all around that said, you know, or a t shirt that said, you know, kid of a cop and

Caitlin Sturges [00:35:31]:
stuff.

Jennifer [00:35:31]:
But so I think probably my experience is a little bit different because

Caitlin Sturges [00:35:37]:
Mhmm.

Jennifer [00:35:37]:
Of that.

Ashlee [00:35:38]:
Well and I think too, like and that's the way I I think this podcast is hard for that reason. Right? Because my my heart and my passion is, like, really wanting this for children or first responders. So I always play 222 separate roles. I think, Jennifer, you do too. Right? Like, on here of I wanna speak as a child of a first responder, then I have my my clinical hat. You know? My clinical hat is gonna be completely different, to be honest, than my

Caitlin Sturges [00:36:03]:
I

Ashlee [00:36:03]:
shouldn't say completely different, but, like, different than my viewpoints as a child of a first responder, and I've had to do a lot of work with that.

Jennifer [00:36:09]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:36:09]:
You know? And, like, not I I have had to separate that and do that. My own work of, like, I wanna learn from people no matter what they believe Mhmm. And and and work with them. You know? And I think that that's also a beautiful thing about the careers that we have that allow us to do those things and to understand. I do look at a lot, and this is this is going down a rabbit hole that we are not going down today. But I do look at a lot of things system wise.

Caitlin Sturges [00:36:35]:
Yeah. I

Jennifer [00:36:35]:
appreciate you

Ashlee [00:36:36]:
bringing that up with

Jennifer [00:36:37]:
your master's in social work. I'm no system expert, but I'm not

Ashlee [00:36:41]:
somebody that is my dissertation, I really included that systems piece, and I don't ever turn my head to that there is a lot of things that we need to fix within a lot of systems.

Caitlin Sturges [00:36:51]:
Oh, yeah.

Ashlee [00:36:52]:
Yeah. And I will never turn my head to that.

Jennifer [00:36:54]:
So That I think sometimes sadly are unjust. And and coming into your initial point about justice being important, and, man, it's a bummer. Mhmm. We'll always see those things that are unjust Mhmm. To different populations and things like that. So I appreciate you bringing that up too, Ashley.

Caitlin Sturges [00:37:14]:
We definitely need to, like, validate, you know, somebody's experience and understand where they're coming from. So, like, professionally, like, when I'm working, I will 1000% do that. But, like, when I'm out with when I'm when I'm, like, out with somebody, you know, and then they're just, like, berating with law enforcement, that's when I'm that's when, like, that switch goes off on me. I'm like, okay. You you said what you need to say, and now you can listen to what I need to say.

Ashlee [00:37:40]:
I love that you said it like that because that's where my brain has been. I'm like, yes. Like, I could like like, in my zone of a therapist, I can do that. I will do that. 100 people validate people. I will let you

Caitlin Sturges [00:37:51]:
know? Yes. In my zone of, like, a child of a first responder human outside of my

Ashlee [00:37:51]:
office, like, sometimes I struggle. Yeah. I'm zone of, like, a child of a first responder human outside of my office, like, sometimes I struggle.

Caitlin Sturges [00:37:56]:
Yeah. And I really do I really do struggle with that. I'm never not gonna be kind or come off, like, abrasive about it. I do wanna hear what you have to say, But it it when it comes down to what I always feel like when it comes down to what I have to say, there a lot of people aren't responsive. Like like their view is correct. Like their experience, their beliefs on law enforcement, nothing I say is gonna change that. And it's hard for me because I'm like, if you could just see, you know, what goes into being a first responder. Like, if I tell people all the time, like, if you wanna see how it really is, sign up to go for a ride along.

Caitlin Sturges [00:38:35]:
Yeah. Go talk to police officers. Go I mean, they love to talk to the community. They they love to shed light on what they're doing. A lot of them are trying to be more pro community, like opening the doors and, like, welcoming people in. I, my daughter's, girl scout troop leader. I work really closely with our police department, and they've become some, like, really, really good contacts, and they're really nice people, and we enjoy seeing them. You know, they want to work with the community to kind of, be more transparent.

Caitlin Sturges [00:39:11]:
So when when I have these conversations with people, I'm like, okay. But did you have you ever sat down? Like, have you ever taken the time to sit down with somebody and, like, listen to what it's like or imagine the experience of the person? There are people there are officers who are bad. Like, there are. They're they're always gonna slip through the cracks. That's never gonna go away. But 99% of the officers out there genuinely want to help. So it's like when you can't take the time to put yourself in someone else's shoes, and I feel like, again, that's where we're failing as a society. Everyone is always right.

Caitlin Sturges [00:39:51]:
Like their view is right. My view is right. Your view is right. You know, nobody wants to take the time to sit back and be like, okay, wait a second. Maybe what you do have to say really could change my view plan on something. You know? So it's it's really hard for me to sit there when I'm not being a professional and be like, okay. Well, did you take the time to talk to somebody? Or if, like, you had these experiences, did you go and talk to the police department before you posted up a complaint on Facebook? Did you take measures to correct the situation or to learn more about why these protocols are in place or what the laws are kind of thing. And I know nobody has a lot of time, but if something's really bothering you to the extent that you need to make, like, a Facebook post about it or, you know, generalize, like, all officers are murderers, whatever racist, you know, that kind of thing.

Caitlin Sturges [00:40:43]:
My response is always, did you take the time to do research of your own? Did you take the time to get to know an officer, ask these questions? And that 99 they're no. Not even 99. 100% of the time, the answer is no. I have not taken the time to do that. So it's like that's where what gets frustrating for me.

Jennifer [00:41:03]:
Well and to come back, I think, I don't know how you felt, Caitlin, and and this is totally me being a therapist right now. Yes. But I I think to have a place to talk about this and to to say this is your experience, and I don't think that you're completely alone in that experience. I hope that's helpful. You know, that as Yeah. Kids of first responders and and I say kids, like, I'm an adult now, but yeah. I mean, there are people complaining when you're young, and how do you have the things to kind of filter and understand?

Caitlin Sturges [00:41:36]:
Right.

Jennifer [00:41:36]:
And then we talk about, you know, the complexity of a culture today where there's so much information. I'm kinda glad I'm old. I know. I know. So

Caitlin Sturges [00:41:46]:
I know. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:41:48]:
So I I do like, I agree with what you're saying because that's the point of this. Right? It's, like Yeah. That safe space. It was obviously my personal experience mixed with my dissertation and getting all this information from that that made me realize, like, we we as first responder children don't have a platform to to put any of this.

Caitlin Sturges [00:42:06]:
Mhmm. Right?

Ashlee [00:42:07]:
And and clinically, my brain was like, and that's not okay. Like, that's not okay. We all need

Jennifer [00:42:14]:
a safe space to be able

Ashlee [00:42:15]:
to do something like that and to relate. Mhmm.

Jennifer [00:42:17]:
Well and Caitlin, I think you opened us up today with even saying, like, my dad did this, my dad did that, and yet it impacted my entire family. And and that's a system. Right, Ashley? Right?

Caitlin Sturges [00:42:30]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Jennifer [00:42:31]:
You know, families are systems. And and, again, it's a it's a service. It's a duty. And so, you know, seeing that that sacrifice and and its impact and knowing, like, hey, there's not been a place for people with of that are first responders' kids to kinda talk about, because those aren't necessarily choices we made. Right. So and yet there's still that impact. So, Caitlin, I just, thank you for that, for being so open and sharing. And I also hate, you know, that you've had to have these encounters repeatedly.

Caitlin Sturges [00:43:06]:
Really nice to to have, like, now a community being built on this. Because like I said, growing up, it's just kind of of like you just this is just how it is. You just kinda roll with the punches.

Jennifer [00:43:16]:
Mhmm.

Caitlin Sturges [00:43:17]:
And then now as like an adult and as a mom, it's kind of the world is changing, and it's always gonna be changing.

Jennifer [00:43:26]:
Right.

Caitlin Sturges [00:43:27]:
It's just hard when your experience is so it's it's kind of rare, like, to to know people to know so many people that have, you know, grown up with, like, law enforcement, especially, or any kind of first responder. You don't it's hard to come across these kinds of people because most of the time, like, our experiences are gonna be similar.

Jennifer [00:43:51]:
Mhmm.

Caitlin Sturges [00:43:52]:
And I thank God that I had 2 brothers growing up who were, like, experiencing the same things that like, we were that I feel like that bonded us Yeah. A lot because we kind of went through it. Like, yes, my dad was, you know, on the front line, you know, pulling dead bodies out of cars kinda thing or, you know, in a gang shooting, in a riot, whatever the situation was. But that still was brought home in some way or another, whether it be, you know, he was quiet or just like that. My dad always says because I I always ask this question. I'm like, how do you just, like, you know, like, you just saw a dead like, how do you process that information? Like, I can't make sense of it. And he's always been so good about saying, you know, like, this is work. You know that this is home.

Caitlin Sturges [00:44:42]:
So he's able always able to, like, compartmentalize it. But I'm just saying here, like, how it still is brought home in one way or another whether, you know, it was intentional or not. Like, it's still affected all. Of course.

Jennifer [00:44:55]:
Yeah. You can't walk away something like that with there not being a little bit of dust on

Caitlin Sturges [00:45:00]:
you. Yeah.

Jennifer [00:45:00]:
Right? Even when you're trying to shake so much of it off.

Caitlin Sturges [00:45:03]:
Yeah. And, like, we always loved hearing those stories. It's still to this day. Like, I still love hearing stories. And whether they're good or bad, it's just it's just amazing to me, like, some of the calls that they get. Somebody wants to hear these stories where they don't. Those the trauma, it's like a secondary trauma. Like, you're still processing.

Caitlin Sturges [00:45:20]:
Like, that was my dad who saw this.

Jennifer [00:45:23]:
Mhmm.

Caitlin Sturges [00:45:23]:
Or that's my brother who went through this. Yeah. Still trickles down no matter what.

Jennifer [00:45:29]:
Absolutely. That so much love that you have for your dad and your siblings. And and we do survive childhood with siblings. That's for sure. Yeah.

Caitlin Sturges [00:45:39]:
We do. It definitely brought us closer together growing up because we just all like, we knew the situation. Like, it was just kinda like we just had to stick together. And then, you know, this really shaped my brother going into law enforcement, and, I mean, he's just moving up the ranks so quick. And, you know, he's been on these horrific calls and all this stuff, but he's also been on, like, good positive experiences too.

Ashlee [00:46:06]:
Of course.

Caitlin Sturges [00:46:07]:
And It's just it's a lot. So and it's hard to see and even my younger brother now is, like, a firefighter paramedic even in being a soldier. Like, you see the shift in them. Like, it's

Jennifer [00:46:21]:
Mhmm.

Caitlin Sturges [00:46:22]:
Or you can just see, like, that they've been through stuff, that they're trying to process stuff.

Jennifer [00:46:28]:
Is that a pretty hard awareness that you see, like, a shift or a change kinda?

Caitlin Sturges [00:46:34]:
Yeah. I I wanna say it's like you still try and be there for them as much as you can. And, you know, they they have their their own families now and, like, their spouses and stuff, but there's always just this connection that you have with your siblings that you just know. Just some of the stuff that they have gone through, I just I can see it. I don't I don't know how to explain it. It's just the wear and tear and, like, the mental, aspect of it. You could just kinda see a shift. It's it's hard to watch, but I mean, like, they're still the same people that

Jennifer [00:47:06]:
Of course.

Caitlin Sturges [00:47:08]:
But they're still, like, you know that, you know, they've been through it, and it's just it's kinda hard to watch that.

Jennifer [00:47:15]:
Yeah.

Caitlin Sturges [00:47:16]:
Just to know, like, somebody hurt hurt my brother. Like, that's my brother. Like, it kills me to know that somebody hurt him or that there's certain call that, like, my brother has had to see or, you know, something like that. Like, it's it's hard to put your head around that. Absolutely. What other profession are you getting hurt like that? Absolutely. So it's hard to

Jennifer [00:47:36]:
think the thing about that is that, you know, I don't know that we'll ever get our heads around those kind of situations. And so that's the hardest part

Caitlin Sturges [00:47:44]:
of it

Jennifer [00:47:45]:
for sure. And, again, I think it's so beautiful how much you love and care for your brothers. As being a sister, it's kind of a nurturing role in its own way. So, yeah, you're kind of as your baby brother, you're seeing him kinda grow up and it's like, wait. What happened? Yeah.

Caitlin Sturges [00:48:01]:
Yeah. So and we're also pretty close to this day, and it's just I'm their biggest fan whether they like it at home.

Jennifer [00:48:09]:
Well, it

Caitlin Sturges [00:48:09]:
also sounds like that

Jennifer [00:48:11]:
protective sister too and why, like, I will say something. I will kind of point out when you feel like that there's Yeah. Maybe somebody saying stuff that's you don't agree with. Yeah.

Caitlin Sturges [00:48:23]:
It's it's hurtful in a way. Mhmm. And, like, too, like, Ashley, I know your parents got divorced too, but, like, that also bonded us because, like, we were so young when my parents divorced that it that kind of, like, we just kind of stayed close growing up and, like, we would see our dad every Sunday. We would go do fun things, and we would go hiking or anything like that. And, we loved we'd always be like, oh, what happened to you this week or what calls kind of thing. And even when my dad was working, like, working nights, I remember, like, pagers back in, like, the nineties.

Jennifer [00:48:59]:
Hell yeah.

Ashlee [00:49:00]:
Yes.

Caitlin Sturges [00:49:01]:
I remember, like, my dad, we would page my dad and, he would always immediately get a phone get a phone to call us so that we knew, like, he was okay or if, like, whether there was a problem, like, or we had a question, We just wanted to hear his voice. Like, he would immediately, like, respond to us. So that was always comfort because we wouldn't see him every day. It would be Sundays we would see him, but he was always in contact with us. And he always, like, made sure that we knew he was okay. So that that was very important growing up, but that truly, like, bonded my brothers and I. But, like, oh, don't worry. I talked to dad.

Caitlin Sturges [00:49:33]:
He's okay. Like, it was just, like, that kind of thing. That was the trajectory pretty much of our whole childhood and it just it didn't just affect my life and my career. It affected both of their careers. It affected my uncle's career and all that stuff. So it's it's very near and dear to my heart.

Ashlee [00:49:53]:
Well and I yes. And I I mean, this has been this has been really incredible, and I can't thank you enough for, like, opening up and and talking with us and giving us in-depth information. I we I almost feel like we needed an episode like this to kind of rip off some of the Band Aid harder discussions, and I really appreciate you being so open and vulnerable to do so. And one thing, though, that Jennifer and I really love to do those before we end, we like to get a funny story. So if there is anything that you do have funny story wise, please share with us so that we can share that with everybody else.

Caitlin Sturges [00:50:31]:
Oh, my gosh. Well, I I'm gonna tell you about one of my dad's calls that Okay. Okay. Fixed with me to to this day. So he told me I think I had to be, I don't know, 10 years old. But there is this, like, pet cemetery in Hanover Park, and I think it's still there.

Ashlee [00:50:48]:
It's still there.

Caitlin Sturges [00:50:49]:
And there my dad said it was like a dark and, stormy night. It was, like, thundering. It was, like, October, like, totally Halloween. And he was working, nights. Well, he kept getting these calls about a man wearing a trench coat that was jumping out into traffic, and he was naked under the trench coat. And he was, like, opening his trench coat. He would jump into the pet cemetery. So my dad was by himself, and he had to go, you know, like I think this guy did it like 3 or 4 times.

Caitlin Sturges [00:51:21]:
And of course, my dad pulls up in the cemetery and everything. I just remember, like, laughing so hard. I remember him, like, explaining how his, like, flashlight was, like, shaking because he was so scared. Because, you know, it's like a pure, like, Halloween out of Halloween.

Ashlee [00:51:36]:
That this is, like, the Michael Myers movie that I'm involved in right now.

Caitlin Sturges [00:51:40]:
I can't remember. I don't think they found him. I can't remember. But, that's, like, one of the stories that always sticks out with me is just, like, the detail that I went into about, like, how it's, like, flashlight was, like, shaking and, you know, just that this man was jumping out in front of cars naked, like and then on a well, it's thundering.

Ashlee [00:52:01]:
It always cracks me up to hear them, like, have those moments and to hear stories from our dads. My dad's petrified. He's gonna kill me. My dad's petrified of bats. Like, petrified of bats, and his department sent him on purpose to a bat in the house call. And, like, listening to my dad, like, he literally said he walked in, and the lady was like, you have to get in. He was like, you have to get in. You know? Like, listening to him be like, he was just as scared as the woman was when they both tried to get this bat out of our house.

Ashlee [00:52:34]:
But

Caitlin Sturges [00:52:34]:
And that that brings me back to, like, even to this day. So my brothers both work for the same department. So half of it's fire, half of it's police. But, like, the fire and police banter between the 2 is the fire. Oh,

Jennifer [00:52:48]:
I can't imagine.

Caitlin Sturges [00:52:49]:
Unbelievable. I just sit there and I'm just, like, laughing so hard because I'm like, what? Like, what? Like, what does that mean? Like, they just make fun of each other? Like, you wouldn't believe.

Ashlee [00:52:58]:
To be honest, I kinda love it because even I

Caitlin Sturges [00:53:01]:
love it.

Ashlee [00:53:01]:
It's all first responders. And so sometimes I'll I'll, like, take the little pin out of the grenade and hand it over. Like Yeah. We're very blessed at our at my office. Sometimes people love to bring in gifts. Right? Like, donuts for, like, everybody or whatever. I had a firefighter bring in, like, these, like, specialty donut. And so then one of my police officers came in, and he will sometimes bring in Dunkin', but I was like, oh, I'm sorry.

Ashlee [00:53:26]:
Like, did you not see that the firefighters have taken care of us today? Like, oh, look what they actually gave us. Like, not just dunk it. You know, I got

Jennifer [00:53:33]:
Yeah. The good stuff. Oh,

Ashlee [00:53:35]:
no. You didn't.

Caitlin Sturges [00:53:36]:
And I was

Jennifer [00:53:37]:
like, I had to do it. I had

Ashlee [00:53:38]:
to do it.

Caitlin Sturges [00:53:39]:
Some of the jokes that they say, I'm like, oh my Oh, it's it's just incredible. It's I love it. It brings me to

Ashlee [00:53:46]:
too. And that's that's the fun part about being another first responder.

Caitlin Sturges [00:53:50]:
Yes.

Ashlee [00:53:51]:
Understanding all that and hearing these things and their stories and and getting the humor and and,

Caitlin Sturges [00:53:56]:
you know,

Ashlee [00:53:57]:
being a part of it for sure. But

Jennifer [00:53:59]:
We love our firefighters here, when the call hits home. Yeah. So we're just do.

Caitlin Sturges [00:54:05]:
Yeah. My my older brother was always like, oh, yeah. Everybody loves a firefighter. You know? So it's just so funny. I love it.

Ashlee [00:54:13]:
It is. Well, Caitlin, thank you so much for coming on this day.

Jennifer [00:54:16]:
Thank you. Especially if you're in graduate school. The fact that

Ashlee [00:54:19]:
you have

Jennifer [00:54:19]:
a great time. Oh,

Ashlee [00:54:20]:
for real. Yeah.

Caitlin Sturges [00:54:22]:
I'm graduating in December.

Jennifer [00:54:23]:
So Oh, yeah.

Caitlin Sturges [00:54:24]:
I just wanna

Ashlee [00:54:24]:
make sure. Back on and tell us all

Caitlin Sturges [00:54:26]:
about it. Love to. Yes. I love to.

Jennifer [00:54:29]:
Yeah. Come out and educate us some more about MBA.

Ashlee [00:54:32]:
So much.

Caitlin Sturges [00:54:33]:
Yeah. I'm trying to pioneer a path for more, behavioral trainings and all that stuff with offering more experienced officers in our field. So, hopefully,

Ashlee [00:54:45]:
we I'm gonna be honest. I think that's the point. Right? We can sit here all day and talk about things, but we all have to put it into action at

Caitlin Sturges [00:54:51]:
some point too and figure out

Jennifer [00:54:52]:
the list. Okay, Ashley. Take us to church. Alright. That is the truth though for sure. So if anybody's listening, I was interested in Caitlin's program. Reach out. Yeah.

Jennifer [00:55:04]:
Absolutely.

Ashlee [00:55:05]:
Alright, Caitlin. Caitlin. We'll talk to you later. Thank you so much for coming in today.

Caitlin Sturges [00:55:08]:
It was a pleasure. Bye.

Jennifer [00:55:11]:
Caitlin, again, thank you so so much for your time and sharing those experiences and for what your dad did for the community and your brothers for what they do and serve now. And, again, sharing kind of that impact and your own sacrifice as a kid of a first responder. So, again, thank you so much for your time.

Ashlee [00:55:30]:
And we do have to thank her one more time, Caitlin, again, for just being willing even a year ago to open up to me and to help kind of put us on our path to developing this podcast and trying to create a community for children of first responders. So we are so thankful for Caitlin and her time. And, of course, we all want you to remember that when the call hits home, Jennifer and I are always here for you. Thank you.