When The Call Hits Home | Episode 14: Opening Up About Organizational Dysfunction

Jennifer [00:00:07]:
Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Saylor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop. And this is the podcast when the call hits home. Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner.

Ashlee [00:00:18]:
I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer.

Jennifer [00:00:24]:
Welcome back.

Ashlee [00:00:26]:
Ashlee, thank you so much.

Jennifer [00:00:28]:
And you again. I know.

Ashlee [00:00:30]:
But let me tell you, you were fabulous. Yeah. I loved your episode.

Jennifer [00:00:36]:
Wanna do it without you ever.

Ashlee [00:00:38]:
Yes. It was so, so, so good. How I mean, I can't help but ask you right now. Like, how did that feel?

Jennifer [00:00:45]:
Well, I mean, it just felt like a normal day because it's just talking to somebody I know pretty well. I've gotten some feedback that we have some great detectives in our audience because everybody's been like, I know who that was. I also got some feedback that I may or may not have spoken over our last guest, and I laughed a little bit. And I sent that to him, and he's like, typical big sister.

Ashlee [00:01:13]:
I'm like,

Jennifer [00:01:13]:
yeah. Typical big sister. I'm in charge and listen to what I have to say to do. I think big sisters are gonna wrap for being bossy. I don't know if you have any experience.

Ashlee [00:01:24]:
You know what's funny is that I actually really loved that because I felt like you got like, the dynamic was there, which I love because I I'm the baby of the family. Right. So I have 2 older sisters, and I I just I know that the cool thing about this is that one day I'll record with them and everyone will get to hear it. But I'm pretty sure that same dynamic will come out. However, I feel like as the baby, I'm the bossy one.

Jennifer [00:01:51]:
Oh, are you?

Ashlee [00:01:52]:
I'm a little more assertive, I think. Like, I'm a little more yeah. Just kinda call us, like, a spade a spade.

Jennifer [00:01:59]:
Yeah. Well, it's another great thing I love about you. But

Ashlee [00:02:02]:
she's thinking.

Jennifer [00:02:03]:
I definitely can be bossy. Loved it for

Ashlee [00:02:06]:
you guys. Like, I thought that was great. That's so funny you say that.

Jennifer [00:02:12]:
It's true.

Ashlee [00:02:13]:
It's true. It was a fantastic episode. Oh, well, thank you. You guys should be like, bro.

Jennifer [00:02:17]:
Too, and I'm glad that we're back at it.

Ashlee [00:02:20]:
I do have to share with our listeners that I'm coming off of a bear's loss. This is a big deal. Nice. It's a big deal. I'm on here.

Jennifer [00:02:29]:
Well, the fact that you showed up or actually would talk to anybody after a bear's loss is is difficult.

Ashlee [00:02:36]:
I got to know. Thoughts on bears. Or when the call hits home, family, as to know, this is how much I care because I'm on here. And and you know what? It feeds it feeds into some of these things we talk about. I think I so first off, everyone knows that I'm identical to my dad in a lot of ways, and this is one way. Mhmm. But, 2, I couldn't help but think so my dad's in Washington for the game, and immediately my brain was like, well, I hope he regulates his emotions right now because that can end not so good when you're in an away team stadium. He did.

Ashlee [00:03:10]:
He's fine. He's good. But I sure as heck struggled with it after that game. So I was like, wow. Talk about talk about learning how to regulate emotions after football games feeds right into the things we talk about on this podcast, but I had to share that because it's important for everyone to know. This is where my priority lies. You know?

Jennifer [00:03:30]:
Well, it is because I did message you and say, would it help or

Ashlee [00:03:37]:
hurt if we first said, so I'm kinda scared. Don't know what we should do here. No. I'm just kidding. I loved it. But I think we have a great so one of the things that we have been really work I mean, first off, we've been working hard, so I'm super proud of us. I think that our listeners are gonna be so surprised of what's to come.

Jennifer [00:03:57]:
I'm super excited. Like, I was speaking to a friend, and I was just like, I can't believe the things that are kinda happening behind the behind the scenes right now. So absolutely.

Ashlee [00:04:08]:
Yeah. Like, it it's about to it's about to keep getting bigger and bigger, and I'm just so excited for everyone involved. And I hope more people keep coming on and keep, you know, participating and and kinda getting these resources that are about to be their way. So I'm pumped about it. And I think today even, one of the things that we love to do is we love to talk to each other about, you know, what are some topics? What are some things that in our childhood or even, like, clinical wise

Ashlee [00:04:34]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:04:35]:
Are we running across and something that's been kinda weighing heavy on me lately and just kind of encompasses everything. So it happened as a kid. I remember it as being a child of a first responder. And now just going through everything that you and I work through, is this piece of, like, organizational dysfunction or organizational trauma, whichever way you wanna put it, right, frustration within departments.

Jennifer [00:04:58]:
So can we define, like, what organizational trauma is or what that looks like for people maybe that aren't familiar or as familiar with that term, like, what that means?

Ashlee [00:05:09]:
So for me, like, when I think about that and, please, actually, you're really, really good at definitions compared to me. But

Jennifer [00:05:16]:
Let me give you a real quick hold on.

Ashlee [00:05:18]:
Right. I'm like, so this is great because I don't know the real one off the top of my head. But for me, it looks like my organizational dysfunction, right, is this struggle within departments or within wherever you work, honestly, career wise, this could be for someone who's not even a first responder even listening. Right? So within your own work, kind of having that dysfunction, maybe more of a negative feel towards others or having things happen to you that's negative. My brain can't help, and I can't go into it right now because that would be a whole another episode. But thinking about just like that moral injury, that that type of things that happen to us at our workplace that really don't mesh well. Right. So give us a nice breakdown of that if you want, Jennifer, because clearly my brain's not there.

Jennifer [00:06:04]:
Well, just, you know, some things that show up when you Google, you know, really top notch research here. But is an emotional response to negative event events at work? I mean, that's a pretty simple thing. But I think we're talking really about experiences within the can I keep using the word organizational? That's not good for a definition. But within the system of place. So, you know, when we're talking first responder stuff, we're definitely talking pieces about the firehouse, about, you know, if you're in a small city, even the city dynamics from which you're working in. Obviously, you know, thinking from a dispatcher perspective, the call room, and then obviously, you know, you and I a little bit in terms of the organization within a police department.

Ashlee [00:06:55]:
Well, I'm so thankful you just said systems because isn't that I mean, that's really what it falls back on a lot of the time I feel, and there's so many systems that are at play here.

Jennifer [00:07:04]:
Mhmm. So whether

Ashlee [00:07:05]:
it be the individual department itself, and then I my brain can't help but to think about also, some of these departments, if we're talking about sheriff's departments. Right? We're going even bigger scheme too. It's like

Ashlee [00:07:15]:
the

Ashlee [00:07:15]:
political atmosphere of things.

Jennifer [00:07:17]:
Oh, absolutely.

Ashlee [00:07:18]:
So there's so many systems that are intertwined, which make this topic, I think, extremely hard.

Jennifer [00:07:25]:
It is. And one thing I mean, I don't know. I the word trauma might be slightly overused in our lexicon. But what I will always say with people because, you know, when I meet with clients, we're not always comfortable using the word trauma. And so it's just really something outside of our control. You know? Like, something that we don't have control over, be it a situation, be it how a organization is run, like, all those kind of things. Okay. I think I had us down a rabbit hole about the definition.

Jennifer [00:07:56]:
But

Ashlee [00:07:56]:
that's No. Kind of what we're talking about. Important. Right? Like, if someone's whoever's listening to us, we want them to know that this is this is what we're talking about. It's a pretty heavy topic, and so that's why it's something that I felt like needed to to be talked about because that's some there's me. Everything in my life has been like, oh, that's a there's the fire walking at ash. But I think it is super important to talk about because it really struck a chord with me this past week of thinking back to my childhood. Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:08:24]:
And I feel like I did see this happen firsthand. Now one thing I want every first responder to remember is that your your children are always listening.

Jennifer [00:08:34]:
Always.

Ashlee [00:08:35]:
Always. And we hear everything. And I I remember often hearing about some of the things happening, like, within my dad's department and being being kind of like I don't just, like, kinda sad or disappointed sometimes. I'm like, oh, well, that's weird. Why would that because we put, of course, we put our first responders at such a high, you know, high standard in life. And to hear those things happening within departments are really sad. And I saw and I hope, you know, I think he's okay with me saying this, but I did see early on in my life, I remember my dad. Like, he first off, he always loved being a police officer.

Ashlee [00:09:12]:
That's something he was very good at, and it's something that he's very proud of, and he still is.

Jennifer [00:09:16]:
Yeah. I love what he said on his episode about getting in the wrong line.

Ashlee [00:09:20]:
Did he

Ashlee [00:09:21]:
not just I'm like, oh, here he is. You know what, dad? Let it out. No. Oh, so he he did love it, and he was very good at it. And I think it was a great career for him. I just do remember him towards the end of retirement being ready to retire, and I don't think it had much to do with the actual job. I do think it had to do with the department frustration on the lack of support Mhmm. And and just feeling like he was having to maybe do things or be a certain way in which he never had to be before, and he didn't wanna be that person.

Ashlee [00:09:57]:
And I felt looking at it now, I'm like, oh my gosh. That's such a hard internal conflict. Right. And let me tell you one thing that that is something I'm so extremely proud about with my dad, that my dad, his biggest thing when he was a police officer was serving his community. That was his favorite thing. He would go above and beyond. I promise you this man would give everything to anyone in his community. And so when he he actually started to, you know, have some kickback at some of the positive things he would do.

Ashlee [00:10:34]:
And when that started to happen is when he started to really be like, woah. This is not this is not what I signed up for. That was through my eyes.

Ashlee [00:10:42]:
That was

Jennifer [00:10:42]:
through my eyes. And so, I guess, can we talk a little bit about that impact for you in terms of, like, through your eyes?

Ashlee [00:10:49]:
Yeah. I think for me, I definite like, again, I definitely remember just being confused and kinda sad because we talk about these departments being such a a family place.

Jennifer [00:10:59]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:11:00]:
But then when you hear about stuff like that happening, you have to have this realization that it's maybe not what you think, and that's hard. Right?

Jennifer [00:11:09]:
Like That is. I mean, that's a grief. You know? There's a loss there of what my expectation was, what I thought this was gonna be, what I'm doing. And, you know, that changing, that's hard.

Ashlee [00:11:22]:
Yeah. For sure.

Jennifer [00:11:23]:
And I I can't imagine I mean, I don't know your dad. Like, you know, you know him. I feel very fortunate that I've gotten to meet him before, but I can't imagine him not just being him. You know? Right. Asking somebody to not be themselves like that.

Ashlee [00:11:39]:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And look at me like sharing his information. Dad, don't you can well, you can't really grab me anymore. I'm pretty old. But well, actually, go ahead. If that means, like, okay.

Ashlee [00:11:51]:
I'll stay home and not, you know Alright. No biscuit. I there's just, like, a memory that comes to mind for me, and I think it's a really good example of what this started to look like for him that I I just remember him being upset about about coming home upset about it. And this is the thing that I think is important and I want people to realize is that organizational frustration and I know we're gonna have episodes down the line where we really get into this. And so Yes. We are people. You must be. Yes.

Ashlee [00:12:16]:
I want people to to to think of this episode as kind of like the creaking the door open, but we're about to bust this door down in some of these later episodes. But one of these examples that I'm talking about here is I remember him coming home and he was really sad and, like, just upset. And

Ashlee [00:12:34]:
I was like, dad, like, what is going on? I was a little older at this time and it was near the end

Ashlee [00:12:34]:
of his career, and he had told me, like, he was really frustrated because he had helped an elderly woman, like, soup like, she I think she was, like, in her eighties. She was homeless. And so he helped her and he got her food. He got her lunch, and then he brought her to a shelter. I mean, he bought her lunch with his own money. Right. You know what I mean? Like, he just wanted to take care of her. He brought her to a shelter.

Ashlee [00:12:57]:
The shelter, for some reason, I don't I don't know what it was, but they, like, called the department being, like and maybe her age or something that they felt they couldn't care for her. But long story short there, he ended up getting written up.

Jennifer [00:13:09]:
Stop.

Ashlee [00:13:09]:
We're literally getting this woman food for, like, helping her and you're and that's the inter right? Like, what do you mean? No.

Jennifer [00:13:16]:
Like Oh my goodness.

Ashlee [00:13:17]:
Why would because he did some like

Jennifer [00:13:19]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:13:19]:
That doesn't make sense, but, like, to my dad, he would never stop being that person.

Jennifer [00:13:23]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:13:24]:
Or should he. Right?

Jennifer [00:13:25]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:13:25]:
But that's what I'm talking about here is, like, things like that. And once those write ups, man, oof, once those write ups and stuff start coming when you're following your own ethics, your own values, your own morals, you're just being a human, like, you're gonna destroy something.

Jennifer [00:13:39]:
Yeah.

Ashlee [00:13:40]:
You know? So it started to mount in that way. Mhmm. And and then I feel like, again, this is my interpretation, these officers, when things like that start to happen and you start to question your department and their loyalty to you, like, that's your brotherhood. That's your sisterhood. That's something you feel so connected to. And I can't help but recognize, like, yeah, my dad came home upset, and I was old enough and he did a good job to communicate with me on that of what was going on. But Right. If it really gets bad, these things, I think it impacts families at home, and that's why it's so important for us to talk about because, yes, it does come home with that officer.

Jennifer [00:14:17]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, that's why I am I'm I'm I'm having an emotional response, and this is how many years later.

Ashlee [00:14:26]:
Right. Like,

Jennifer [00:14:27]:
that is just heartbreaking and and so disappointing. And it makes sense on why we see so many things like this happening when that's just, you know, a a small experience of this.

Ashlee [00:14:39]:
Exactly. And I think too, I look at these situations now. Both you and I are blessed to work either with law enforcement or fire or what have you or just know them because of our what we do now, like trainings and and the podcast and stuff. We know so many people that open up to us about these things, and, you know, I've heard stories. I've I've listened, definitely listened to how the organizational frustration has caused people to, like, stop sleeping, stop eating. Yes. Yes. Right? To be so anxious.

Ashlee [00:15:11]:
And so what happens is they go home and they're trying you know, our kids and your spouses, they don't necessarily know how to respond.

Jennifer [00:15:19]:
Right. Exactly. Exactly. I feel like I have a little bit lighter. I don't know if it's lighter. That's still kind of a crappy situation, but just how things work. And, you know, when I was younger, my dad was taking the lieutenant's test and had planned to be a lieutenant, and they had I'm making this number up, you know, 10 slots, and that was the plan. You know, my dad made it underneath that 10 kinda umbrella.

Jennifer [00:15:47]:
And then all of a sudden, it changed. And it's like, well, actually, we're only accepting 5, you know, because of things that happen within a city system, you know, what they have the budget for. You know, who knows why?

Ashlee [00:15:58]:
Uh-huh. Exactly.

Jennifer [00:16:00]:
That, you know you know, that silly game I make people play when they come to my class. And who doesn't love a game that you're playing and the rules change all of a sudden? You know? And I think sometimes that's extremely hard to navigate that as well. And, again, it's those things that are outside of our control are the ones that kinda keep us up at night sometimes. Like, I can't create another lieutenant's position. Like, that's not in my scope. And what's so interesting about this, my poor mother, like, she was so upset about that. Like, she was the one that I think we got more of, like, a response for, obviously, you know, some disappointment for her spouse and her partner. Probably some disappointment in terms of, like, oh, you know, I imagine a lieutenant mix a little bit more and, you know, just things like that.

Jennifer [00:16:51]:
And, you know, we were talking about that, actually, in our meeting we had about you get a promotion and now you're the bottom man on the totem pole. And, you know, like, oh, I used to work days, but now I'm the new guy here and so I'm working nights. You know, those are all system things that are really hard to navigate. And I don't know. It's difficult. I, I don't know if this is the place to share this metaphor, but I I think it's helpful. And I talk to a lot of people who have job frustration sometimes about the metaphor because it was shared to me. Because, again, like, what we're talking about is not just a first responder issue.

Jennifer [00:17:30]:
It's anybody that has a job issue.

Ashlee [00:17:32]:
Right.

Jennifer [00:17:33]:
But somebody told me this once, and I think it's so true because I was getting so frustrated at this job. And, like, I'm, you know, trying to get this work done or trying to make this progress and, you know, I'm doing all this stuff and you're not not seeing any change. And they told me, wow. You can you can go 90 miles an hour. Like, you have the ability to go 90 miles an hour. Unfortunately, you're at a car that tops out at 30. And I think sometimes that is helpful within those, like, systems to recognize, like, where your abilities are. Like, coming back to that that interpersonal piece of, like, oh, this is my skill.

Jennifer [00:18:15]:
This is what I'm good at. And then exploring Allison, Ashlee, you're the systems expert here. But looking at this system and kinda recognizing and I know that our systems there's systems that can go 90 miles an hour. I'm not trying to be heavy downer, but I think sometimes it's helpful. I don't know. That metaphor was helpful for me.

Ashlee [00:18:35]:
I love that. I do really love that because I think it makes a lot of a lot of sense. And, honestly, like, that whole everything you just said, my my brain has caught on to a few points. And I don't mean to bring us back, but I think, like, there was a few things in what you said that are super important to identify. One is that so much of it is out of our control.

Jennifer [00:18:55]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:18:56]:
And the other part is you're right. When we were having those meetings and kinda talking about the impacts of these first responder jobs on our families Mhmm. Yeah. So one, I think and and your mom being so sweet because she was so you know what I mean? Upset. I think that's Oh,

Jennifer [00:19:11]:
she was not sweet. She was very angry.

Ashlee [00:19:13]:
Wait. I was just trying to I was trying to give her a little,

Jennifer [00:19:17]:
of teasing.

Ashlee [00:19:18]:
She had the right to be though because guess what? It's our spouses. It's our significant others at home who see us working hard. Right? So see their first responder loved one working their butts off to be who they wanna be. And so I think it's very hard in these jobs not to assume sometimes too that, like, favorites and political stuff are at play when it comes to that. And I don't know. I'm not saying every situation, but I do think definitely some that that can happen.

Jennifer [00:19:46]:
Yeah.

Ashlee [00:19:47]:
But then you're right. If we do get that promotion, life drastically shifts for us again. And if you have kids, right, like, they are having to go through that too. Your you saying that just made me think of a friend that I have who her husband is a police officer and did get promoted and then had to go to 3rd shift. Well, her kids are smaller, but they won't sleep. They've been having so much trouble sleeping because there's they're worried about their dad being at work, and they're not used to him not being home like that. Right. And and it's been tough on them.

Ashlee [00:20:22]:
Right? So Of course. We can't we can't miss out on this fact of, like, those all of that within the organization truly does come home to the family.

Jennifer [00:20:32]:
Yeah.

Ashlee [00:20:32]:
And one thing that I had talked about before too is this notion of when we are stressed with the department staff, we come home, use our significant other as an outlet, which is great because, hey. In this situation, we're communicating, and we know that that could be tough for our first responders. But then but then what do we do when there's no change happen?

Jennifer [00:20:51]:
Exactly.

Ashlee [00:20:52]:
Right? So then our significant other is stuck with this frustration of supporting their spouse, which may lead to to anger at the department or within the department because of whatever's happening.

Jennifer [00:21:03]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:21:03]:
But then after so long, when there's no change, that could lead to dysfunction within the marriage or what have you because what else can they do to help? I hear that all the time.

Jennifer [00:21:13]:
You know, that is definitely a hard one. And, unfortunately I don't know, unfortunately but this is what I've seen and heard. You know, a first responder feeling like I chose this career in terms of it's a calling. And, again, like you said, coming and communicating with the spouse positive. But sometimes the spouse being like, well, let's look for something different. Look for a new job. And Yes. Back to this kind of identity thing, you know, what you there's a difference between a job, a calling.

Jennifer [00:21:43]:
There's a difference between a career and a calling. And so you're kinda asking somebody again not to be true to themselves if this you know, if being a first responder was a calling for them. And so where from a solutions factor, like, well, here's the problem. It's this job, so just don't do that job anymore. Hello? That's the perfect solution. But when you're asking somebody who, again, this is a calling for you know, sometimes I I've worked with people and, unfortunately, I've taken that very personal from their partner when maybe that's not necessarily what their partner meant or maybe it was. And it's kinda like, well, you don't know me a little bit. Mhmm.

Jennifer [00:22:24]:
Kinda to your point about communicating as a first responder. It can be easy to throw up those walls more vulnerable about something, and then that's somebody's solution for us.

Ashlee [00:22:37]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, look, like, I don't I obviously, with this, it's just been something that has been weighing on me because I've been thinking about my, like, my own childhood experiences with it and then just hearing things around me a lot of the time. I mean, I don't claim to know everything about this. And so I hope that our listeners, like This is a big topic.

Jennifer [00:22:59]:
If, they're listening because they think I know anything, we're in trouble.

Ashlee [00:23:03]:
So I hope they give us some feedback on it. Right? It's like, I think one of the things that will be really helpful and unite our community here is talking about what that looks like, the organizational aspect looks like on our families and stuff. I don't think we could sit here and say that it doesn't impact our families in some way. I think sometimes it impacts our family positively. Of course. I think that's the thing. I don't wanna turn my head

Jennifer [00:23:27]:
to that. Speaking of the positive piece, I wanna throw back to is it Ben? When we interviewed about the EMS games, it was Ben and

Ashlee [00:23:37]:
Ben and Chris. Yep.

Jennifer [00:23:39]:
You know what I love Ben said at the episode is, like, let's look at what we do well. And I love that in terms of, like, thinking about that perspective of a first responder. Like, what are we really good at?

Ashlee [00:23:51]:
Yeah.

Jennifer [00:23:51]:
So I agree. Like, it's not like, this is not this isn't doomscrolling. Like, you know, there's definitely some things we do good. And, honestly, this is just about what our experiences is and and, like, oh, like, oh, I know that as a parent or Oregon. I was a kid of a first responder. Oh, I totally get that. That's what this is really about. Also, I just wanted to point out since I'm doing callbacks to

Ashlee [00:24:17]:
Yes.

Jennifer [00:24:17]:
More episodes. But thinking about our episodes with kids of firefighters and, you know, talking a lot about a family in the firehouse and Mhmm. You know, how they function and, oh my goodness, I can't imagine, like, a family at work because, like, family is tough and to think about that. And I really appreciated Eric's episode, and he kinda talked about being at certain houses that maybe wasn't a fit for him. And, you know, that's an example of something in terms of, you know, just an organizational I cannot I don't wanna use the word trauma, but an organizational oh, what did you what word did you use earlier that I liked?

Ashlee [00:25:02]:
Dysfunction.

Jennifer [00:25:03]:
Thank you. Like, yeah. And

Ashlee [00:25:04]:
it wasn't even

Jennifer [00:25:05]:
I don't even have to say that was a dysfunction. I was just like, oh, this isn't an organization.

Ashlee [00:25:09]:
Conflict for sure. Right? Like, it's just a little conflict that we run into. But I think absolutely, fire side of things, holy moly. You're spending a lot of time with those folks. Yeah. Exactly. That system is shaken, I've seen it firsthand, when that system is shaken, man, is it impactful.

Jennifer [00:25:30]:
Oh, totally. And it can be as simple as, like, personalities that get along together and personalities that don't get Oh, yeah. Along together. You know? And and that's not anybody's fault. That's just humans being humans. So I just you know, I don't wanna forget our other kids or first responders and thinking about this and applicable ways to fire and dispatch and Yeah. AT and T. So

Ashlee [00:25:59]:
Oh, absolutely. And I think it really does go across the board with every with everyone. Honestly, it happens everywhere. We know that. That and then that's another important piece about this that I I say all the time, especially when I'm working and I'm hearing these things. It's like, it's at every department. It really is. Sometimes this happens when you just get a group of people together.

Ashlee [00:26:19]:
Yep. Right? Like, that's sociology says. So, like, that's what happens, when we have groups of people together. But at the same time, it's hard to ignore because I I've seen it cause so much distress.

Jennifer [00:26:34]:
Absolutely.

Ashlee [00:26:34]:
I've seen it literally break people down, and I'm going to make a really, really, really bold statement.

Jennifer [00:26:40]:
Oh, sitting down.

Ashlee [00:26:42]:
I know. I'm I'm actually a little nervous about it. But with my research, with my dissertation

Ashlee [00:26:49]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:26:49]:
The organizational part of it was huge.

Jennifer [00:26:53]:
Of course. Huge. And

Ashlee [00:26:54]:
how our first responders who were in the front lines of civil unrest did not feel support at all

Ashlee [00:27:01]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:27:01]:
From their own departments.

Jennifer [00:27:02]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:27:03]:
So that that weighs heavy on me. From working with first responders and from hearing it so much, I do tend to lean that when we're looking at this is a big one for me, so I'm a little nervous. When we're looking at, like, suicide numbers for our first responders, I truly think a lot of the times, it's the stuff within the walls of their department that gets them more than it is the job. I do think that a lot happens from the job, but when that when you like, when things happen on a job, but then you encompass the stuff that can happen within the walls, I truly think that that breaks somebody sometimes.

Jennifer [00:27:42]:
Well, I think it's that whole thing too in concept of any job. But, you know, I think you go and then you're trained and you're at the academy and you're doing all these things and you're totally prepared to how to, you know, respond to a house fire, respond to shooting. But I don't know that there's training about how do you respond to somebody throwing you under the bus. Or

Ashlee [00:28:08]:
about to say feeling backdoored.

Jennifer [00:28:10]:
Exactly. Like, you know, I don't think that those are things that are happening. And and and so I think that's the other thing that's extremely hard to to your point. Like, what am I supposed to do with this? I knew how to respond to this. I know. And, I mean, I've obviously very biased opinion. I I love that first responders are having more honest conversations about mental health and things like that. But I still think that there is this piece, which is why this has weighed on you, Ashlee.

Jennifer [00:28:39]:
Like, hey. Can we please talk about this elephant in the room and and the weight that it's having on first responders? So Yeah. This is why I'm so glad it's me and you because you're talking about this heavy stuff. Like, if

Ashlee [00:28:54]:
And and I feel like that's what we have to do on this podcast. Why we wanted to do it. Right? It's like, you are so right on that. It it is this elephant. It is this, like, topic that a lot of people don't wanna go towards, but we have to. We we have to when it's screaming in our faces

Ashlee [00:29:11]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:29:11]:
When there's this problem. And let me promise you something. It eats me alive as a clinician when I have someone sitting in front of me who is so broken over something that I cannot control. Like, I do you know what I mean? Like, when they're broken in front of me and they're feeling all these sorts of ways because of what's happened to them within their department, and I can't I what I wanna do is go, like, mama mode even though I'm not. Right? And go call in their bosses and be like, hey. But they can't. And I hate that feeling more than anything, probably, again, why I had to bring it up in an episode because how do I help? Right? And I think what's really cool is that Jennifer and I have been like, yeah. How do we help? So we're finding the right people that are gonna come on here.

Ashlee [00:29:59]:
They're gonna teach us how to help and teach our listeners how to work through that with their families as well.

Jennifer [00:30:06]:
Right. Well, I think, you know, callback first episode. This whole episode is just me full of callbacks. But, you know, I think it is our place of saying, okay. The car tops out at 30. Well, let me figure out how to maybe get new tires on it so it can go a little faster. Like, it's all about naming as children and first responders is about figuring out what we can control, what we can make a difference in for sure.

Ashlee [00:30:31]:
Yeah. Absolutely. One thing that I live by too, and I don't you know, for children, this would be a little bit harder. I think for spouses, though, this might be a great, like, tool. And you know you know it as well as a clinician. But because, again, what do you say to them in these situations? I think that could be very hard, but I think you have to go sometimes it's just about listening. Always say, just ask them. Just say literally ask your significant other.

Ashlee [00:30:57]:
Are you wanting me to give you feedback right now, or are you just wanting me to listen?

Jennifer [00:31:03]:
Yeah. Well, I tell you what. I know I say this all the time to my clients, so I'll probably say it all the time here. But I definitely think at times, like, I'm not really doing rocket science in terms of therapy, just listening, and then I go out into the world and see all the places where I'm not heard. And so I do think it's an incredible superpower to be able to listen, and we definitely wanna be listening to the people we love. And the same, you know, for our kids as well. You know?

Ashlee [00:31:31]:
Yeah.

Jennifer [00:31:32]:
And I think when we're bogged down with, you know, the things happening at work, it takes away from our abilities at times to really hear our kids as well.

Ashlee [00:31:41]:
Yeah. A 100%. And I I kinda wanna throw in there. I don't again, right, as a child of a first responder kinda taking off my clinical hat, I'm actually really grateful looking at the situation Mhmm. That my dad did tell me. And I think that I'd again, I encourage, obviously, appropriate to the child's age. But I honestly think that with my like, me and my dad having conversations about this, it opened the door to a a big learning experience for me. Right.

Ashlee [00:32:09]:
You know,

Ashlee [00:32:09]:
it was a learning experience for him. I appreciated understanding where he was coming from, and it gave me just a an ability to because, again, we hear the things.

Jennifer [00:32:20]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:32:20]:
So, like, one of the worst things about that is when you hear it and then it can leave your child's you know, like, don't get me wrong. Like, I was angry and

Jennifer [00:32:27]:
stuff when I was You're gonna be upset for your dad.

Ashlee [00:32:30]:
Yeah. Exactly. That's a

Jennifer [00:32:32]:
healthy thing that happens. Like, that's not a negative thing.

Ashlee [00:32:36]:
Yes. But I think, again, with him communicating with me and us having talks about it, it really did help help our our our relationship and then just help me as a child of a first responder to kind of understand a little bit more about how life isn't always just perfect like that. You know? Like, it isn't what it may seem sometimes, and

Jennifer [00:32:55]:
it just was think a powerful lesson too in terms of, like, it's still about doing what's right.

Ashlee [00:33:03]:
Yes.

Jennifer [00:33:03]:
You know? Yes. I got in trouble, but I still did what was right.

Ashlee [00:33:08]:
And that's where that pride comes in for me because I I just know that that's who he was Mhmm. As an officer, and I can't be more proud of him. No.

Jennifer [00:33:17]:
Sounds like that's who he is as a man and as a dad as well, but absolutely, of course. And he's

Ashlee [00:33:23]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's so true. That's so true. And then, right, like, you this is right here, and what we're talking about feeds off of our last episode that you and I did together of just, like, when stuff was hitting the fan. Right? It's like these moments of, like, I wish everybody knew that about my dad. Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:33:46]:
Mhmm. Right? But they don't because he's wearing a uniform that says he's

Ashlee [00:33:51]:
what

Ashlee [00:33:51]:
he is. Right?

Jennifer [00:33:52]:
Right. Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:33:54]:
But that's just went full circle for me on the show. Yeah. Like, that these things here are being so proud of him for that of you know, and not every department is every department has its good things. Departments have their bad things, but, like, being that person is something that he should always be proud of. It's something that I know I'm proud of, and it's it's just those things that I wish everybody saw is that every officer most officers wanna do those things.

Jennifer [00:34:17]:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Ashlee [00:34:19]:
You know? So it's, man, it's a cycle. It's a system for sure.

Jennifer [00:34:23]:
It sure is. And I I mean, as always, Ashlee, I appreciate you sharing so much as I especially know that's so personal, for you as well.

Ashlee [00:34:32]:
Yeah. Well, I love that you give me the platform to do it, and you make me feel safe enough to do it right. Like, I it's these moments on here that are exciting because, again, I want to have children of first responders get on the show, call in, oh my gosh. I remember that. Don't at least, there are definitely probably more adults, but even teens. Right? Like, tell us because there's probably a few that are going through the same thing right now of seeing their parent come home and maybe feel defeated by their job and and hear about the department stuff and feel a certain way. And we I I think we both want them to come on here and share that stuff too.

Jennifer [00:35:13]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, again, that whole thing of, like, you're not alone in dealing with this and that, you know, your parent maybe has a frustration with the job, but that's not that's not who they are or, things like that.

Ashlee [00:35:30]:
Now it's definitely on that parent though to make sure they separate it from their family because, again, I do think that could come home, and that could be an impact.

Jennifer [00:35:38]:
Well, of course. And and, you know, I think that's such a parenting is hard. And that's the end of the podcast because parenting

Ashlee [00:35:46]:
is hard. That's the start and the finish.

Jennifer [00:35:50]:
However, I think, you know, this story that you're sharing is such a perfect way to, like, navigate something like that. Again, you're of age to have this kind of conversation with it's had I'm hearing you say that it was impactful. It hurt me to see my dad hurt

Ashlee [00:36:10]:
because of

Jennifer [00:36:10]:
what happens in loving relationships. If one of us gets hurt, we're all getting hurt. But, you know, it wasn't why I don't wanna upset Ashlee, so I'm not gonna tell her what's upsetting me. And, honestly, what gets to happen throughout that experience is, you know, a lesson that you get to learn, seeing your dad endure something like that, you know, gosh, what a value lesson in terms of, you know, honoring your value system and things. So I don't know. I I have to navigate sometimes as the parent and then obviously working with parents of, like, you know, as a parent, you always wanna make your child's life easy. As a parent, you always wanna cuddle and love and, you know, nothing bad in this world. But in fact, you know, what it is about is, again, having these honest age appropriate, honest conversations that it says, like, this life is hard.

Ashlee [00:37:07]:
You

Jennifer [00:37:07]:
know? Like but this is how we navigate those things. Okay. I just went on a whole No.

Ashlee [00:37:13]:
I loved it.

Jennifer [00:37:13]:
So botched. Wrapped us up, like, perfectly.

Ashlee [00:37:17]:
I loved it very much so.

Jennifer [00:37:19]:
Parenting is hard.

Ashlee [00:37:21]:
Yeah. 1, that's what we wanted to do with this episode, right, is that we both know what we have coming down for everybody. And in these next, you know, several episodes coming up, we have a lot that's going to be happening. And I just think we had to, like I said earlier, open this door to this topic of organ organizational dysfunction and and talk about it through the lens of of children of what that can look like and how we see it sharing this story. But I think you I mean, you honestly wrapped wrapped that up nicely, and it's it's helpful, I think, to have you share that side of things of parenting and what that can look like. So I appreciated that big time.

Jennifer [00:38:01]:
Well, thank you guys for listening. And as, you know, we've mentioned, please let us know what you wanna hear, thoughts, all that good stuff.

Ashlee [00:38:09]:
Yeah. I definitely am really eager. I hope somebody reaches out about this topic too and wants to share a little bit of their story, whether it be a first responder or a child of a first responder. I think we are interested in that, but we're just so thankful. We're thankful to have you guys. And don't forget that when the call hits home, Jennifer and I are here for you. Alright. Let's see you guys next time.

Ashlee [00:38:31]:
So

Jennifer [00:38:31]:
Bye.