Episode 19: Exploring Moral Injury

Jennifer [00:00:07]:
Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Sailor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop. And this is the podcast when the call hits home. Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner.

Ashlee [00:00:18]:
I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer.

Jeremy Davis [00:00:22]:
Some topics in this episode are suited for mature audiences. Listeners who are sensitive, please be advised.

Jennifer [00:00:31]:
Welcome back to the podcast. I am Jennifer.

Ashlee [00:00:34]:
And I'm Ashlee.

Jennifer [00:00:36]:
We have an awesome guest today. One that bless his heart because I've been like, hey. Can you meet with us? And then I go sit him and then I'm like, hey. Can you meet with us? But that's the holiday season for sure. So we're excited to have our guest, Jeremy, on. So, Jeremy, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Jeremy Davis [00:00:54]:
Sure. My name is Jeremy Davis. I've been a police officer for 30 years this year, actually.

Ashlee [00:01:01]:
Oh my god.

Jennifer [00:01:01]:
Yeah. Congratulations. Woo.

Jeremy Davis [00:01:03]:
Thank you. Yeah. Wondering when I'll retire. But, I've been at 3 different agencies, some small, some large, little bit of everything. Yeah. In there, I've worked, patrol, street crime, street level narcotics, was a detective for a while, worked crimes for women and children, saw all the child abuse and sex abuse cases. Was on SWAT team for a while. Did a little bit of bike patrol, so haven't really figured out what I wanted to do.

Ashlee [00:01:35]:
That's amazing.

Jennifer [00:01:36]:
Well and before the 30 years, you did something else too. Right? Like, in terms of service?

Jeremy Davis [00:01:43]:
Well, I did, but I followed my dad around. My dad was in the military, and and I traveled around with him until he got orders for Fort Polk, Louisiana and said, dad, I love you much. Have left nothing there. Have no desire to go back there. I think I'm gonna branch out on my own. He got the last laugh though. He was there less than a year and then got orders for Schofield Barracks, Hawaii. And I'm like, is

Ashlee [00:02:10]:
it too late to go back?

Jennifer [00:02:13]:
Right. So So you understand a little bit in terms of, being raised in a military family, the service aspect

Jeremy Davis [00:02:20]:
Yes.

Jennifer [00:02:20]:
Of things. Yeah.

Jeremy Davis [00:02:21]:
Yeah. And and that really you know, when I was thinking about today and and the topics that we're getting into, I really looked at my childhood and how that kinda developed me into who I am just because of the things that had gone on and the influence that my dad had on me, not just for service, but for leadership as well and how you care and treat people. Well, it was a very good learning experience for me.

Jennifer [00:02:54]:
Well, I mean, this is so why we want you on the podcast. And, you know, it might be a little bit why you have unicorn status. I'm like, man, a police officer that's willing to look back and reflect. Like, so impressive. So incredible.

Jeremy Davis [00:03:08]:
Get out too much. I mean Yeah. We we do have an image to uphold.

Jennifer [00:03:13]:
Yes. I'll let anybody know that. That's the part one.

Ashlee [00:03:15]:
Yeah. I was just about to say. Right? I mean, you've done all these things. I'm laughing because earlier, you know, we're like, oh, Jeremy's on here. He's amazing. And here I am, like, poor Jeremy has never gotten rid of me. Like, he he came into my life, and I was like, well, I'm not letting this one go. So and now I'm like an adoptive daughter that he didn't want, but I just Well, yeah.

Ashlee [00:03:36]:
Here I am.

Jeremy Davis [00:03:36]:
That's that's your own guilt. I you know, I've got 6 kids, 7 grandkids. What's one more?

Ashlee [00:03:42]:
What is one more? Great. I had to see it on in there. I mean, I remember watching you present. Right? So we all met at a at a conference, and I remember watching you present for the first time. And I was like, this person is incredible. Like, your presentations are incredible. I've learned so much from you. I continue to, which is why I was like, yep.

Ashlee [00:04:02]:
Sticking by him. So I'm just thankful. I'm even thankful to have you on here. And and can you talk a little bit about I mean, obviously, you gave us all this experience already, which is we can't get enough for what you've done.

Jeremy Davis [00:04:14]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:04:15]:
But can you talk a little bit about, like, some of your passions now? Because it seems like you really have tapped into a whole different world of, like, mental wellness and being for first responders.

Jeremy Davis [00:04:25]:
Sure. So, really, the journey began because I was a police officer and I was a supervisor. And there were a couple incidents that happened that made me really stop and think, what is my responsibility as a supervisor for the well-being of my guys? Because we ask them to do all these things. We give them all these tools to do all these things. But the hardest thing to do, we never talk about, we never touch, we never teach, and that's how to kinda deal with the crap that sticks to us doing the jobs that we do. You know, I talked about my dad was a a big influence on me. One of the things that I remember growing up learning about leadership was from my dad because every Thanksgiving, every Christmas, it wasn't just family. All of the soldiers that didn't have some place to go, they would be at the house.

Jeremy Davis [00:05:20]:
And and I really learned that my from my dad, you have to care for your people. And it's not just can they do the job, it's their well-being and who they are outside of the job. And when you make that connection, you can do amazing things, and and you can get your officers to do amazing things for you. In my dad's case, it could get your soldiers to do amazing things for you. And that really stuck with me. And as I started suffering kinda some of these hard traumas, it it really struck a chord with me as a supervisor is what is my responsibility? So went to school, got a degree in HR. I don't know why I did HR, but I I did. I I did It's a good masters in HR.

Ashlee [00:06:08]:
Uh-huh.

Jeremy Davis [00:06:09]:
But then when I started working, my doctorate in leadership and organizational development, I really wanted to look at the aspect of why do people do what they do when they're treated the way they are sometimes. And it there has to be a deeper passion. And with police officers, it it really is a passion. If you didn't have a passion for it and and it's the same for firefighters and EMTs. Everything that we see day to day, if you didn't have a passion for it, you would not last very long. Right. Be because it's really easy to say, you know what? I can do something making more money, a lot less stressful Yeah. And and just walk away.

Ashlee [00:06:49]:
Well, I think we're seeing that, aren't we? Like, at alarming rates at this point.

Jeremy Davis [00:06:54]:
Unfortunately, there are there are a lot, and yet we still have people that, hey. I I wanna do this. Mhmm. So that's really what started me on the journey. And then as I I started looking at it, I thought about my own kind of traumas and and how I dealt with it. Where did I get the tools to kinda deal with what I I was dealing with? Where was I lacking in tools to deal with with what I wasn't dealing with? And, again, it it kinda goes back to the family and upbringing. I I was very blessed. My mom died when I was 6 months old, and my dad was given an option to either turn my sister and I over to my grandparents and stay in the army or get out.

Jeremy Davis [00:07:43]:
My dad chose to get out and care for my sister and I. And for the first 7 years of my life, that that foundational time frame, I saw my dad in action caring for my sister and

Ashlee [00:07:56]:
I Yeah.

Jeremy Davis [00:07:58]:
And was never bitter that I could ever see. Was always positive, always had this outlook of it's life. We make the best of it. I've had a very strong faith, and it it's funny. One of the things when I was growing up is he said, you can't have my faith. You have to have your own faith for your own reasons. If you're doing it because of me I love that. It's not gonna last.

Jeremy Davis [00:08:24]:
So you have to kinda find your own way. And that journey kinda helped me understand, okay, when I can't deal with things, I have a dad that's willing to be there. I have my faith that I can fall back on, and that's what got me through a lot. We talked a little bit about how comfortable I am, so I'll kinda broach this subject. One of the things that really made me question who I was and what I was made of, so to speak, is I had to work a fatality where a 7 month old infant was burned to death in a car. And the officers and I could not do anything, and we had to listen as this child died on a lot of levels that that struck a chord with me. A lot of feelings of inadequacy, a lot of feelings of failure. You know, I had this great example of my dad as a father who gave up a career and did all these things to care for his children.

Jeremy Davis [00:09:30]:
So a father is supposed to be there. And as a father, how could I not do more? How could I not protect this child?

Jennifer [00:09:40]:
Mhmm.

Jeremy Davis [00:09:42]:
As a man, our job is is to be protectors. And, again, I failed. So I I failed as a father. I failed as a man. As a police officer, we're supposed to have all of those solutions. We're supposed to be the ones that that can fix these problems. You know, here I am a SWAT officer, do all these high speed things, and yet I fail. There was a lot a lot of guilt.

Jeremy Davis [00:10:12]:
Added to that, once this incident's over, I remember the very next call that we had that I had to send officers out on was a stupid barking dog call. And I remember getting angry, like, do you understand what I just did? And you're worried about some dog doing what a dog does. Are you effing kidding me? Yeah. And then I felt even worse because as a good supervisor, guys, we gotta take the next call. Right. And that stuck for a long time. I did not deal with that trauma at all. I'll just being honest.

Jeremy Davis [00:10:56]:
For over a decade I never talked to anybody about it. No one. There was one guy that was out there with me. About a year later, we talked about it for maybe 10 minutes. Right. And both came to the realization that don't like the way this makes me feel. It sucks, but it's our job. And so neither one of us really wanted to to broach it or deal with it.

Jeremy Davis [00:11:21]:
It started to affect me a lot. I was getting maybe 2 hours of sleep a night if I was lucky. When it started to affect me physically after about a decade, one, just getting older, my body couldn't do it anymore. Mhmm. Did a sleep study, and I failed a sleep study. Didn't know that was possible. Doctor said, here here. I'm gonna give you some medicine.

Jeremy Davis [00:11:45]:
You're gonna go to sleep. We'll get all these results. And I only slept for about 2 and a half hours and was wide awake. And they're like, that's not really enough time. We gave you this medicine. You should be out. I'm like, I I can't go to back to sleep and this is why. This is the nightmare that I'm having Mhmm.

Jeremy Davis [00:12:04]:
And I don't wanna go back to sleep. And it was at that point, the sleep specialist said there's nothing I can do for you. I'm like, that's not how this works. Right. You know, you're you're supposed to to help me, and and that was my first clue that I needed psychological help. And that that's what he was basically telling me there. Yeah. As a sleep specialist, I can't fix what's preventing you from sleeping.

Jennifer [00:12:30]:
Right.

Jeremy Davis [00:12:32]:
And that started my path down understanding what I thought was PTSD. Don't use that term lightly. You know, you've seen my presentations. I love people who self diagnose, and it's like, hang on. PTSD, here's all these criteria. You have to check all these boxes. And if you don't, it's not PTSD. It may be PTS Mhmm.

Jeremy Davis [00:12:58]:
But it's a little bit different. But I I was eventually diagnosed with PTSD and really wanted to kinda understand how to fix myself because I knew that there were 3 other people out there with me that were probably suffering just as much if not more than I was. Mhmm. And interestingly, the the more I looked into it, I came across a study through the military, doctor Brian, who was looking at soldiers coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan, and he was looking at something called moral injury.

Jennifer [00:13:36]:
Yeah.

Jeremy Davis [00:13:37]:
And the more I looked at moral injury, the more I thought, do I really have PTSD or do I have moral injury? There's kinda two trains of thought. There's one group of people that think moral injury is kind of a precursor to PTSD. Mhmm. Let me back up for a minute. Moral injury is we all have these values and these beliefs. And as police officers, our beliefs and our values are even stronger because we have that strong sense of right or wrong. Right. That that's why we do what we do.

Jeremy Davis [00:14:12]:
There there's a very hard, this is right, this is wrong mentality. And what happens in moral injury is we either do something, witness something, or fail to take action on something that violates our beliefs. And so when I was talking about with this child, I'm I'm a failure as a man, I'm a failure as a father, I'm a failure as a police officer, I'm a failure as a supervisor. Those all went against what I believe to be true about all these different aspects. You know, I I raised my dad up on this pedestal as this great leader because I see him taking care of all of his guys doing all these things. Yep. I see him as a wonderful dad that took care of my sister and I for 7 years by himself. You know? My my grandparents were there, but it was my dad.

Jeremy Davis [00:15:09]:
And and so all of these images that I had of what should be had now just been assaulted. And so a lot of people think that that moral injury is a precursor to PTSD because it breaks down who we think we are.

Jennifer [00:15:26]:
Mhmm.

Jeremy Davis [00:15:27]:
There's another group that thinks it's separate from PTSD and it it's kind of own thing.

Jennifer [00:15:35]:
Yeah.

Jeremy Davis [00:15:37]:
Not a professional, not a psychologist, just a cop. My belief is that they're separate because I looking at PTSD and and having talked with a professional and being given that diagnosis, I 100% accept that. But there was another aspect of it that the more I looked at moral injury and the more I talk with officers, there's a large feeling of guilt Mhmm. And shame Yep. For what they've done or not done. You know, I I should have done more. I could have done this.

Jennifer [00:16:18]:
Right.

Jeremy Davis [00:16:20]:
That really strikes at the moral injury because who you thought you were as a person is now being put into question in a way that is indescribable. Right. It it forces you to even question, is what I believe true? And that can be very difficult very difficult to deal with. And that started me down that road, and what's interesting is through all of my therapy, they were treating me for PTSD, and that was wonderful. But what really got me kind of over that hump, I think, had more to do with the moral injury and and something that happened, with the moral injury. One of the things that I did at one of my jobs is I would do safety days for the military. Even though I'm not in the military, I work near military base. The hospital always had a safety day where they had here's boating safety.

Jeremy Davis [00:17:26]:
Here's lawnmower maintenance safety. Here's, you know, all the things that that we need to do. And they had me come out as a, reconstructionist for the police department to talk about collisions and driver safety and DUIs and things like that. And one of the people that was doing part of the DUI safety was a gentleman that had lived through the Carrollton bus crash. He was a a young man when this occurred. Part of his therapy that he did to heal himself is he went out and bought a bus that's exactly like the bus that was involved in the crash. Uh-huh. Painted it up exactly the same.

Jeremy Davis [00:18:05]:
And then inside of the bus, he has pictures of all of the people and where they were sitting is where as well as where they were found, and it has little blurbs on it.

Jennifer [00:18:18]:
I said, are you familiar with the Carrollton bus accident?

Ashlee [00:18:22]:
I am not as familiar. I feel like I have heard about it. Well, I

Jennifer [00:18:26]:
was just gonna say in terms of, you know, people listening. It was one of the first cases, well, not first cases of drunk driving, but it made national news. A drunk driver went the wrong way on a interstate and crashed into a bus of kids from

Jeremy Davis [00:18:49]:
Sure. It was a church group coming back from, an amusement park.

Jennifer [00:18:53]:
Island. Yeah. Go ahead, Jeremy. I just was, like, thinking in case people weren't familiar with that.

Jeremy Davis [00:19:00]:
Well, ironically, and this this is kinda ties into it

Ashlee [00:19:03]:
Mhmm.

Jeremy Davis [00:19:03]:
Because what happened in that bus crash is when the crash happened, the bus caught fire.

Jennifer [00:19:10]:
Mhmm.

Jeremy Davis [00:19:11]:
There were some safety issues, and, the kids and the adults were not able to get off of the bus, and many of them died in the fire. Yeah. I would never go on the bus because, again

Jennifer [00:19:29]:
Right. Of what you're experiencing.

Jeremy Davis [00:19:31]:
Injury and PTSD is that avoidance.

Jennifer [00:19:33]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:19:34]:
So

Jeremy Davis [00:19:34]:
I can stand next to it, but I don't have to go into it. Right. Well, the 3rd year I was doing this program, the gentleman that did the bus and kind of explained everything and walked everybody through what was going on, said, hey. I've gotta step away. There's only, like, 20 minutes left in the day. If somebody comes up, can you kind of explain it to him? I'm like, sure. Thinking last 20 minutes of the day, nobody's gonna tell

Ashlee [00:20:01]:
me this. Don't let anybody come. Please don't let anybody come over. It's over.

Jeremy Davis [00:20:06]:
Yeah. But guys in the military, if it's the last 20 minutes, they're finding things to do to not have to work. Right. Right. Right. And there was a woman who was 9 months pregnant with her husband that came up and said, would you mind walking us through the bus? I did. It took a lot. I'm sure.

Jeremy Davis [00:20:35]:
I'm sure. But as I did it, I was thinking about my incident and this child dying in this horrible way, seeing how this man who had lived through something like that had turned it into a positive

Ashlee [00:20:54]:
Mhmm.

Jeremy Davis [00:20:55]:
And then seeing this pregnant woman realizing life still happens.

Jennifer [00:21:02]:
Yeah.

Jeremy Davis [00:21:03]:
There's still happiness that can be found. There's still that growth, and maybe I'm not as much as a of a failure as I thought

Jennifer [00:21:13]:
Mhmm.

Jeremy Davis [00:21:13]:
Because I learned from it. I would say it took me quite a while to grow from it, but when I did grow, I turned it into something positive. And that really helped change my mind frame. It's not something that we did in therapy through PTSD. It was more that moral injury aspect of understanding, I'm okay. I'm still the person who I was. I I didn't fail. There are some things that are just outside of our control.

Jeremy Davis [00:21:52]:
I I know you guys being kids of cops. Control is our biggest issue. What? I have to control the situation.

Ashlee [00:21:59]:
You never knew that growing up every

Jeremy Davis [00:22:01]:
day. Every day.

Ashlee [00:22:03]:
Every

Jeremy Davis [00:22:03]:
day. But that that really is what helped change my attitude. The other thing that kind of helped me grow because I know this is dealing with kids and kids of first responders, my son left for the marine corps. And when he came back, we had a a really hard discussion, and he said, dad, I felt like I couldn't fail. You you wanted me to be perfect.

Jennifer [00:22:35]:
Yep.

Jeremy Davis [00:22:36]:
And it was like, that was never my intent. I wanted you to be better because I knew what you were capable of, but I never expected you to be perfect. I'm not perfect. Here's here's all these inadequacies that I have. And that's when I realized that part of that moral injury transferred to my kids because what it did for me is it made that compass of mine of what is right and what is wrong, what it is to be a father, what it is to be a man, what it is to be a police officer, kind of hyperfixated it Yes. To I have to be the best. And if I'm not the best, I have to find out why, and I have to try and be that way. And so I started expecting more of myself than I really should have.

Ashlee [00:23:33]:
So I have to wrap this around, though. Okay. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I have to wrap this around for our listeners. Right? Because something that Jennifer and I have talked about I talk about all the time. I talk about it at such great length, and I'm so, like, I'm excited. I'm excited that you just said all that because you said it so beautifully and so well. And I but I call those, like, unrealistic expectations from that parent who is a first responder onto their family.

Jeremy Davis [00:23:59]:
And and that's exactly what I realized is that even though I was putting those expectations on myself, I was actually putting it on my children as well. Yes. And and it unintentionally

Jennifer [00:24:12]:
Well, of course. Right?

Jeremy Davis [00:24:14]:
Expecting them to kind of meet a very unrealistic standard.

Ashlee [00:24:19]:
Yes.

Jeremy Davis [00:24:19]:
And I kinda couched it going, no. I don't want you to be perfect, but you can do so much more. You have so much more potential. I see these things in you, and it wasn't till we had that hard conversation, and then I had it with 2 of my daughters as well. Where it was like, no. I I never expected you to be perfect. And if I wasn't at the place I had been, I would have felt like a failure as a father again because here I am having my kids

Ashlee [00:24:50]:
Yep.

Jeremy Davis [00:24:51]:
Tell me all this. But we had we were able to have that honest conversation. And it's

Ashlee [00:24:55]:
like the important part.

Jennifer [00:24:57]:
Oh, yes. I mean, I think the ability to communicate that and have that conversation is incredible. I also think as human beings, you know, and coming back to this definition of moral injury, you know, this is this value system, this belief that you have that really anchors us. Right? Like

Jeremy Davis [00:25:13]:
Right.

Jennifer [00:25:14]:
You know, wrong, right. Like, this is my these are my bumpers, you know, for bowling. Like, this guides me. And when that, you know, gets taken away or challenged, as human beings, we're gonna lean more into all the things to try to build that back. Yeah. Right? And so, again, it's not even this conscious thing of, like, okay. Well, I feel like a failure. So now I'm gonna make everything in my power to never be a failure again.

Jennifer [00:25:42]:
It's not this thinking thing. Right? It's just those things that slowly show up.

Ashlee [00:25:48]:
And, yeah, I mean, I can't you're saying that perfectly. I just I'm currently doing presentations for a police department by me, but they asked me to do it on what it's like to be a child of a first responder. And I talk about exactly this. Right? Like, I talk about exactly and I I think, like, I'm getting, like, choked up right now because I'm like, this is the most beautiful wraparound that I've ever experienced because what we're saying is you came back to communicate it. But what I recognize as a therapist now, as a child of a first responder, like, a lot of families don't have that conversation. They don't tap into any of this. Right? And so as the child of a first responder, like, you are just left feeling like you will never live up you will never make that parent proud. Like, you will and you're always pulled to do so.

Jeremy Davis [00:26:39]:
Right? It's a very hard conversation to have Yeah. Absolutely. Because you as as a first responder, as a police officer, and and I know we've joked about this before, I've got 6 brothers and sisters. And every time they're introduced by my parents, this is my son, Josh. This is my son, Jason. This is my daughter, Rebecca. This is my daughter, Tina. He gets to me, this is my son, Jeremy.

Jeremy Davis [00:27:07]:
He's a cop automatically. And it's not just my name. It's it's Yeah. What I do. And even for my kids, they see me as this police officer, and they see what standards I hold myself to and to humble yourself and go, look. Yes. I I that is what I aspire to, but I'm also a person. Yep.

Jeremy Davis [00:27:35]:
And I fail, and I make mistakes, and I don't mean to do these things intention. This was it's hard to humble yourself in front of your kids, and these kids who when they're 7, 8, 9, 10, think, oh, you're perfect. This is who I wanna be because I remember looking at my dad even into my teens Yep. Wanting to be like my dad. And, oddly, when I was 16, I remember talking to my dad one morning at, like, 2 in the morning saying, dad, I wanna be just like you. And him going, no, son. If you want a good role model, you wanna be like your grandfather. And so, again, it just reinforced that you can be a man, you can be strong, you can be this person people look up to, but still be humble and still be willing to admit it's it's not as perfect as you think.

Jeremy Davis [00:28:36]:
I I I do make mistakes, and that really helped me have that conversation with my kids. And for first responders out there, it's hard.

Jennifer [00:28:47]:
It is. Well, and I wanna say yourself. Well, and that whole thing too about, you know, having the conversation. You know, I think sometimes it's the reality of we're just living in it. You know, we don't have this awareness. Like, I really and Jeremy, I just appreciate your story so much. But that ability to say, like, it really took the time to look at yourself and looking at others. You know, like, that's its own process.

Jennifer [00:29:18]:
And I think that to recognize that, like, if we're saying, okay, have these conversations with your families, have these conversations age appropriate with your children.

Ashlee [00:29:29]:
Yeah.

Jennifer [00:29:30]:
It starts with have these conversations with yourself. Yeah. Right. Like, have this time to reflect. And, you know, I kind of teased about you being a unicorn, you know, that you kind of thought about your childhood. But, you know, there's some places that, you know, if we're willing to look in those in those things and and coming back to this concept of moral injury, let's just start there. Like, what is your wrong and right? Right. You know, this doesn't even have to be a negative.

Jennifer [00:30:00]:
Like, what is your wrong or right? What do you believe in? What is your value system?

Jeremy Davis [00:30:05]:
Right. And that's why I mentioned what my dad had said, you know, about faith. You you can't go based off of me because it it's it won't last. If you're doing something based off of me, it's not gonna last. And so that that's part of I had to find out for myself Yep. What I believe and why about all of these things. Not not just my faith, but all of these things. And, you know, you you talk about age appropriate.

Jeremy Davis [00:30:34]:
My conversation was very age appropriate because, like I said, I waited till my son got out of marine corps boot camp. So he, you know, he

Jennifer [00:30:41]:
grown up.

Ashlee [00:30:41]:
Yeah. Right. And

Jeremy Davis [00:30:45]:
but in a way, that also made it harder because they're adults now. And Yeah. To to sit back because all of my kids were over 20 when when I had this conversation with them and just said, you know, I'm I'm sorry for the failings that I had, which was very good for me because the kids were like, no. We don't see it that way. Not saying that you were perfect. Not saying our our childhood was perfect, but we understand why you did what you did. And after having these conversations, it makes more sense.

Jennifer [00:31:21]:
Yep.

Jeremy Davis [00:31:21]:
Again, not that everything is sunshine and rainbows, not that we had this perfect childhood, but I understand. Right. And that helped me as well come to terms with, okay. I'm not as much of a failure as I thought I was because I I have my wonderful kids saying, no. You we still rely on you. We still value you. It it was it was good. Have that conversation.

Jennifer [00:31:49]:
Yes. Definitely have that conversation for sure. And even if they are adults, you know, obviously, we wanna have it before then, but it's never too late too, you know, thinking about people that are retired and things like that.

Jeremy Davis [00:32:03]:
If you can recognize it and especially with preteens, early teens, if you can recognize it at that point and kind of have that conversation It's funny. My daughter is the one my Deborah, my youngest daughter, said, dad, you tell us all the time that we need to give ourselves some grace. Sometimes you need to give yourself grace. Ouch.

Jennifer [00:32:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Jeremy Davis [00:32:31]:
Ouch. But if you you can have that conversation with your kids and say, look. I'm trying, but there's things that happen and I don't realize I'm doing that. And if I do, give me a little bit of grace and just kinda remind me. Hey, dad, it's it's me. I'm trying, but we're kinda you know, this is the way I feel and accept that. Okay. Am I overcompensating because of what I feel? Am I acting out of what my intent is? Because I think a lot of times that's what happens is when we act out or we do things, our intent is to do a Yep.

Jeremy Davis [00:33:16]:
But we end up doing b unintentionally. Right. And the kids the kids see the b, and and if they bring it to our attention to say, you know what? That wasn't my intent. This is this is what I was was really looking for. And it will I think, not a therapist, but I think it will really help both the parents and and the children understand better.

Ashlee [00:33:42]:
Yeah. You make a great point.

Jennifer [00:33:44]:
Yeah. I'll be a therapist for a second, and I just wanna talk about this. And and I don't necessarily I'm not asking for us to share deeper, but I I do think the power of the feeling of shame. It is an incredibly, incredibly hard feeling. And, you know, talking about failures and all these things like that is just that's such a shame response. And the thing about shame and human beings, we'll do a lot of things to not feel that. Yes. A lot of things to not feel shame because it is such a heavy, heavy feeling.

Jennifer [00:34:26]:
And I, you know, I appreciate you sharing your story. And I think about, you know, you have this experience and how it can build on it. For some people, like, that cloak of shame is so thick. Like, we can't even get to, like, where was the root of this? And I think it's great, you know, your story, Jeremy, to say of, like, well, I was willing to, like, peel back and and go through those things to kind of find out where that really came from. But I just wanna say that for people because I do think that shame is a hard, hard feeling. And I don't know that we've completely understand what it will really drive people to do sometimes.

Ashlee [00:35:08]:
Well but I also think too, right, like, Jeremy, you said a keyword to me, right, as a clinician as well. I can't help it, but, like and that was acceptance.

Jeremy Davis [00:35:18]:
Alright.

Ashlee [00:35:19]:
You have to like, you said, we have to accept it. Right? Right. And I don't think that happens often, and I think that be can be because of shame. Yep. Right?

Jeremy Davis [00:35:30]:
Like Because shame is so it's hard to wash off. Yes. And and this is why I think it it moral injury is so important to kind of understand for yourself because what I feel shameful of, someone else may not.

Jennifer [00:35:50]:
Right.

Jeremy Davis [00:35:50]:
Because it's based on my morals

Ashlee [00:35:53]:
Correct.

Jeremy Davis [00:35:53]:
My beliefs

Jennifer [00:35:55]:
Mhmm.

Jeremy Davis [00:35:56]:
How I value things, and that is so highly individualistic. It's hard to wash that off.

Jennifer [00:36:05]:
Yeah. Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:36:06]:
Well, I mean, even if we're being brutally honest here. Right? Life happens, and life happens really fast. Does anybody really take the time to be like, what are my core values? Because they change.

Jennifer [00:36:18]:
Yeah. They do. Oh,

Jeremy Davis [00:36:20]:
yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Jennifer [00:36:21]:
And we

Ashlee [00:36:21]:
do not, as humans, take the time to say, hey. What is it that I believe in right now? What is it that makes me me? Am I feeling this way because it is a core value being compromised? Right? Like, we I don't wanna go down the rabbit hole of boundaries and all those things, but, like, most of the time, we feel crummy. And why do we feel crummy? Because we are compromising a value of ours that we haven't recognized.

Jeremy Davis [00:36:44]:
Right. Whether intentionally or unintentionally

Ashlee [00:36:47]:
Exactly.

Jeremy Davis [00:36:48]:
And we still recognize it. Mhmm. We we may not recognize it up in the the forefront of our brain, but in the back, it's like, hey. Hello. This isn't this isn't what we believe in. It is possible. It's it's hard. And, you know, you you talk about being willing to.

Jeremy Davis [00:37:09]:
Some I I kinda laugh, and I was forced into it. You know, when I when I started started looking at at therapy, you know, I'll give a plug for EMDR. It's great, but I was kinda hard headed control freak. It it took me 7 sessions for it to finally click, but then I was forced even more because, like I said, what really helped me get past that feeling was being on that bus and explaining what had happened and walking past those pictures and kind of seeing all of that reality swirling around kinda smacked me in the face and said, well, you gotta deal with it now. Don't don't really have a choice. A

Ashlee [00:37:52]:
little bit of exposure therapy happening.

Jeremy Davis [00:37:54]:
Yeah. Well and and that's when I talk to people and I tell them, we all have trauma. Some is easy to get over, some is not. Right. If it's not easy to get over, please do it on your time because if you don't, I promise you, it will pick the most inopportune time Right. To rear its ugly head and say, okay. You have to deal with me now. And we may not have the resources around us at that time to deal with it.

Jeremy Davis [00:38:27]:
So take the time. If you've got those traumas that are hard to deal with Yep. Take the time to say, you know what? I'm gonna deal with it now. As uncomfortable as it is, I know I've got the support system. I know I've got the people I can reach out to. I can do this now. And and take that hard step before it rears its ugly head and you're not ready for it.

Ashlee [00:38:52]:
Right.

Jeremy Davis [00:38:53]:
Well, and

Jennifer [00:38:53]:
I just wanna say too, I mean, the courage and I I would imagine some of your value system here when somebody has you, like, hey. Will you cover this for me? Something that you don't wanna be a part of. You know, it could have been easy to say no. Yeah. You know, it could have been easy to you'll have to walk yourself on that bus because I'm not getting on to it. Right. And I think that that's a little bit such a it's such the fabric of first responders, though. Right? Like, it's about doing the right thing even if I'm uncomfortable at times.

Jennifer [00:39:26]:
And so how we can do that for others. Right? Because you did that for the person that needed you to cover. You know, you did that for that young couple that came up to the bus. And it's just like you're allowed to do those things for yourself as well. I mean, I think that's the thing that I see sometimes in first responders, what we'll do for our neighbor, what we would do for, you know, the people in the community we serve. And we just sometimes forget that we're allowed to do those things for ourselves. It's kinda what your daughter said about the grace. Like, we can give ourselves grace too.

Jeremy Davis [00:40:00]:
Yeah. That that was kind of that slapping, you know, the backhanded compliment of of my daughter. Hey. You tell us give us grace. You give yourself some. It's like, okay.

Jennifer [00:40:10]:
Well, listen. I know that you read a lot, and I feel like there's some books about moral injury. I don't know if you'd have one that, like, you would recommend, if people are, like, more interested. And if you don't know off the top of your head, it's fine.

Jeremy Davis [00:40:23]:
Well, there's one that I like, and I all I remember is power because it it's power is the main title, and then there's, it's something with law enforcement. But doctor Popololu put it together. There's lots of different doctors that got together, put it together brilliantly. It doesn't just cover moral injury. It's it's police, police ethics and behavior. And even though it's written by a bunch of doctors, it's written in a way that is very easy to read. Oh, I like that. Easy to read.

Jeremy Davis [00:40:58]:
Good. The body keeps the score or body keeps the count.

Ashlee [00:41:03]:
It's body keeps the score. You're right.

Jennifer [00:41:05]:
Yeah. Body keeps the score. Saying I know that one.

Jeremy Davis [00:41:08]:
It it it really is. And then at the the conference that you and I you guys and I had had met at, started passing around books. The Knight in Rusty Armor.

Ashlee [00:41:22]:
I loved that.

Jeremy Davis [00:41:23]:
Very, very good book. Very easy read. I highly recommend it. But then there's a companion to it because my wife was like, oh, that's you. See, I'm, you know, kinda poking her finger about all these things. And yes. I get it. There's another book, letters of Juliet to the knight in rusty armor.

Jeremy Davis [00:41:43]:
And I read it. It's it's about the same size, easy read, takes a couple hours maybe. But then I looked at it, and I said, see, this is this is you because Juliet is the knight's wife, and if she goes on her own journey, and and it's kinda funny. I gave it to one of my my officers to read. And he goes, you know what's funny is I noticed at the beginning of the book, she's saying in her letters to her husband, dear sir, very informal, kind of standoffish because of what has happened in their relationship to where at the end, she's like, my love Mhmm. In that journey of of coming back. So recommend both of those as well.

Jennifer [00:42:31]:
I will put those, like, in the show notes. But like I said, I know you're you're very well read, and so I was like, oh, if you had any books for our listeners about moral injury. So I appreciate that.

Jeremy Davis [00:42:40]:
The the rest of the moral injury stuff that I read are are a lot of the technical, like doctor Brian's paper, very academic. If you get into those, I highly recommend his research because he's done a lot a lot of good work. Yeah. But they're they're mainly academic, and I know most people will get through, like, page 2 and be like, okay. I'm done. Ready to

Ashlee [00:43:04]:
take it out. Yeah. Well, I think you did a

Jennifer [00:43:06]:
good job with some summation of some of that work already. So, like, they don't even have to go read it because she gave us some great information about moral injury and its impact. And I I appreciate your willingness to talk about moral injury in such a personal way too, Jeremy. You don't have to go and and and and make it this, like, presentation. You know, you make it so personal about that experience that you've had. So thank you for that.

Ashlee [00:43:31]:
Yeah. And I know we're running a little bit. We're we're getting closer to time here. But I did wanna throw something because I think we have a really awesome opportunity to do so, and I think that this could lead to probably another whole episode, honestly. But because you've been so open with us already about your positions in life, right, in this leadership roles that you take. I love moral injury. Started because of you and your presentation and wanting to learn more about it. But one of the things that I have come to just see within my research, right, we talk so much and your example was perfect because when we do give examples, we give a ton of examples of what it's like for for military.

Ashlee [00:44:12]:
Right? But I love that you were able to give it to us and what it could be for an officer and a real life example of that. But something that I think we often don't talk about in terms of moral injury, though, is this notion of betrayal. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. With moral injury, but I've really tapped into that. And it talks about I have my notes, so I'm looking down a little bit. Sorry. But it's this betrayal occurs when an individual feels betrayed by a higher authority.

Ashlee [00:44:39]:
And I bring this up only because I think that, like, it sounds like you have reflected upon the fact of, like, your own leadership position with this. Right? But how Right. How quickly people who are in power in these jobs can have this impact, everything that we've talked about, upon those underneath them. Am I making sense? So, like

Jeremy Davis [00:45:03]:
You you no. You are. Because my dissertation is on how social support, specifically the peers, their immediate supervisors, and command staff impact an officer's willingness to stay at a job when they haven't got promoted. Because I know officers that have spent 20 years in their career, never made a past patrolman, never been a detective, never had a special assignment, and they still do 20 years. What is it that that keeps them? And interestingly and I don't wanna get too far out of this because my my paper has not been approved yet. But interestingly, one of the things that I have found is that the command staff's support and approval is very important, but it's the least observed. It's it's the least felt. And there's a disconnect because a lot of the supervisors, a lot of the command staff go, well, we do a, b, c, d, and e for our officers, and it's not what the officers want.

Jeremy Davis [00:46:12]:
And they're not and I'm gonna kill myself when it comes to doing presentations on this later, but they go all these commands to have to go to these presentations and get all this wonderful knowledge and go, oh, well, this is what I need to do and implement things without talking to the officers. Right. My presentation may be great. There may be lots of good information, but find out what your officers need because there was an entire study done by the, International Association of Chiefs of Police that found out there's a huge disconnect between what officers need and want and what command staff thinks they need and want. So they think they're doing this great job

Ashlee [00:46:56]:
Right.

Jeremy Davis [00:46:58]:
When they're actually I don't wanna say betraying the trust, but I'm looking for your approval, and you're giving me exactly opposite of what I'm looking for.

Jennifer [00:47:07]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:47:08]:
Right. And I even brought this up just to say that how imp like, just the notion of if you are in these positions within the department, how much you can impact those around you. Right?

Jeremy Davis [00:47:21]:
Yeah.

Ashlee [00:47:21]:
And the fact that there's so much research now about moral injury, and we're talking about moral injury being the root of such disturbance in these first responders' lives, and that can come from your command staff? Do you know what I mean? Just the importance of at least tapping into yourself to recognize that you hold that power.

Jeremy Davis [00:47:40]:
Yeah. It there's a lot of research out there that that looks at agency betrayal.

Jennifer [00:47:48]:
Yeah.

Jeremy Davis [00:47:48]:
And if you, not that you wanna go down the negative road, but you wanna find out about agency betrayal, ask an officer. Hey. Can you tell me about how the agencies betrayed you? I I hope you've got 4 or 5 hours or have a good way to say, okay. I'm done. I need to leave.

Ashlee [00:48:05]:
Grab the coffee. Yeah.

Jeremy Davis [00:48:07]:
Yeah. Because it it is real. And, again, I don't think all of it is intentional.

Ashlee [00:48:14]:
Nope. No. I wouldn't say that.

Jeremy Davis [00:48:16]:
The sad part. Yes. Right. It's the sad part is I don't think a lot of the command staff are doing it intentionally. There are some. Don't don't get me wrong. I I Like anything else. Yeah.

Jeremy Davis [00:48:28]:
Right. Like anything else, there are those that just they don't need to be in the positions they're in. But for a lot of them, I know their best interest again, my intent is a, I have the best interest of the officers at heart. But the way I put it into words, the way I put it into action, and the way it's received is so far removed from my intent.

Jennifer [00:48:55]:
Yeah.

Jeremy Davis [00:48:55]:
And, unfortunately, one, it's hard for officers to tell command staff, hey. You're kinda screwing up because this is what you said and this is the way it came across. And it's hard for command staff to allow an officer to go, I felt absolutely disrespected when you said this. Right. I know that's not what you meant.

Ashlee [00:49:17]:
Right.

Jeremy Davis [00:49:18]:
But I felt absolutely disrespected. So it's hard for the officer to say it. And if they do say it, it's I'm gonna tell you as a supervisor.

Ashlee [00:49:27]:
Right.

Jeremy Davis [00:49:28]:
It's hard sometimes being called out and somebody saying, you treated me like crap, or you made me feel this way because we get defensive. Well, that wasn't my intent.

Ashlee [00:49:39]:
Right.

Jeremy Davis [00:49:41]:
So

Jennifer [00:49:42]:
Well, I just hope you're

Ashlee [00:49:43]:
giving yourself credit. Right? Like, I think that you are a really good example of leadership and and being able to implement these things that help those around you. You know? And you said it on here a 1000000 times over and I hope our listeners hear that as well and just kind of take that to heart. But I had to bring it up because I was like, when I'm doing this research that just keeps point, like like a red, like highlighted bold. I'm like, ah, driving me crazy.

Jennifer [00:50:08]:
Well, and I was just it's funny, Ashlee. I mean, I kinda knew you're gonna bring it up, but I definitely was thinking it earlier.

Ashlee [00:50:15]:
Well, I'm a little sassy, guys. I'm a little sassy. Something like that

Jennifer [00:50:19]:
too. And, you know, I mean, Jeremy, a career of 30 years. And, you know, I'll just speak from my own career. You see what I thought going into this career would be and then what it is. You know? And I think sometimes that can happen in terms of, again, this value system. Like you know, I wanna go in and help everybody and then realizing, oh, well, you know, some people don't wanna be helped or whatever that is. And and, like, you kinda have to evolve with that. And I think was that was a point that was made earlier too about just the evolution of our values and things like that.

Jennifer [00:50:57]:
But I do think that there's that piece of it as well. And and, you know, listen, Ashlee, you're the sociologist. So the systems, I mean, the systems here with our first responders and

Ashlee [00:51:08]:
I do still trying to fight the good fight, y'all.

Jeremy Davis [00:51:11]:
Well, I know. For supervisors, I'll I'll give you two real quick examples. One is a horrible supervisor. I was unhappy, went to try and say I'm not happy. What can we do to change? And their response is, well, if you're not happy here, I don't want you here. Go ahead and quit. Mhmm. Okay.

Jeremy Davis [00:51:32]:
I hear that. That's true. If that's the way you feel Right. That is a horrible example. But then I have another supervisor who had to call me out on some things and made an offhanded comment that I know they meant in a a positive way. They said, Jeremy, this just isn't you, but this is the way it appears. And when he said this is the way it appears, it felt like a personal attack. And I said, you know what? I'm offended that you would say that.

Jeremy Davis [00:52:07]:
Here's why. Again, I'm a supervisor, so it's a little bit easier for me as a supervisor to to tell command staff that. A lot of my command staff will tell you I don't play well with others. But to his credit, he heard what I had to say, and he took a step back and he goes, okay. I'm sorry you took it that way. I didn't mean it that way. I'm just saying when I get this complaint and I I look at you and I know who you are and I've known you all these years, that's not who I see. So there there had to be something there.

Jeremy Davis [00:52:41]:
I I didn't mean it kind of the way it came across. And so we were able to have that conversation. That's a good supervisor. Yeah. That's what we need more of. He stood his ground. He still said, hey. I've gotta talk to you about this.

Jeremy Davis [00:52:56]:
This it it is what it is. But he was willing to to hear what I had to say and say, okay. I I get it. This was my intent and and kinda have that intent delivery speech Right. As opposed to, well, you don't wanna be here. Bye.

Jennifer [00:53:12]:
Yeah.

Jeremy Davis [00:53:12]:
And, unfortunately, we need more of the second leadership, but we have more of the first. Right. Right.

Ashlee [00:53:20]:
Isn't it weird how it all comes back to communication and listening? It's a powerful thing, and yet

Jennifer [00:53:26]:
it's a really hard thing. And when you think about what all entails with communication, you know, things have to go from the front of our brain down to our mouth. It can take a long time. And then we gotta use our ears and take that information and make sense of it. Yeah. It's it can be a good thing to do.

Ashlee [00:53:46]:
Absolutely. Well, I mean, we are so appreciative that you came on today, honestly. Yes.

Jennifer [00:53:52]:
Thank you so much, Darren.

Ashlee [00:53:53]:
He's our he's our favorite human right here. One of our favorite humans.

Jeremy Davis [00:53:57]:
The unicorn person. Appreciate it.

Ashlee [00:53:59]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And, like, taking the time again today to be with us. And I think people are gonna hear this, and I guarantee you we're gonna get the comments if they want more Jeremy Davis on here. So I don't think this is the last time we're gonna have you. That's for sure.

Jeremy Davis [00:54:14]:
Well, I hope it's all positive.

Jennifer [00:54:17]:
It will be. It will be. For sure. You're awesome.

Ashlee [00:54:20]:
Well, thank you. And, honestly, like, we have we have a lot more coming up this year, so stay tuned. Keep listening to us. We love our supporters.

Jeremy Davis [00:54:30]:
Show all my guys. Listen to them. They're great. Not just because I'm on here. I told them when

Ashlee [00:54:35]:
you guys first come out. Listen.

Jeremy Davis [00:54:36]:
Said to my kids, said listen to it because, you know, it may explain why I did some of the stupid things I did. Well, you never know.

Jennifer [00:54:44]:
Well, that's that's encouraging.

Jeremy Davis [00:54:46]:
You guy yeah. I appreciate what you guys are doing. It it is important. I know you say it's for the kids, but for the first responders themselves to kind of get that, hey. Unintentionally, I may be doing this. Let me let me fix it so that I can have that better relationship and not overcomplicate things for my kids.

Jennifer [00:55:09]:
Yeah. I mean, it breaks my heart when I hear about families that are first responder families and there's estrangement between parents and their kids. So, you know, we definitely wanna foster that and make sure that that just doesn't happen in our foster care or our first responder families. Yeah. Absolutely.

Ashlee [00:55:29]:
Alright, you guys. Well, don't forget that when the call hits home, Jennifer and I are here for you. We'll listen to you. Well, we'll listen to you again. Now we're all all messed up here. But we will be on soon, so keep listening to us, and thank you.

Jennifer [00:55:42]:
Thank you.