Episode 20: Honoring Legacy and Transforming Pain into Purpose

Ashlee [00:00:07]:
Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Saylor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop. And this is the podcast when the call hits home. Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer.

Jennifer [00:00:24]:
Alright. Welcome back. I'm Jennifer.

Ashlee [00:00:26]:
And I'm Ashlee. And

Jennifer [00:00:28]:
as always, we're excited about today's episode. We have two guests, two for the price of one today. And I met, one of these guests through this incredible foundation called the Chip Terry Foundation. So we're gonna talk some about that, and I made sure everybody knew. I'm bringing it up at the top because I want you guys to hear about this great foundation. But why don't we go ahead and just shoot to you guys and tell us a little bit your names and about yourselves?

Hannah Knox [00:00:54]:
I'm Hannah Knox. I'm Chip, the foundation. I'm his oldest daughter. I'm a high school, college, and career guidance counselor, and I teach some history and some religion classes. So

Michaela Terry [00:01:05]:
I am Mikayla. I am number three out of the six Terry kids, and I am a firefighter, paramedic, as well as a master's level social worker, but I've kinda stepped away from everything to start raising babies. So Oh. We're just running the Chip Terry Fund on the side with the help of my mom and my sister. We kind of, have taken that on, and that's what I'm doing right now. Well, I

Jennifer [00:01:30]:
didn't know that we coulda had four other guests on the pod, but I Right. I appreciate you guys both being here. And, Hannah, I'm an oldest, so, we'll definitely get to bond about that. Yeah. And, you guys both have awesome careers, especially the guidance counseling and social work as well. So well, let's just you know, we're here because we're all kids of first responders, and so I just wanna start with, like, what was that experience like for you guys being a kid of a first responder?

Hannah Knox [00:02:04]:
I think being the oldest, mine is a little more different than my younger siblings.

Jennifer [00:02:08]:
Right. Totally can relate.

Hannah Knox [00:02:11]:
So the reason we started the Chip Terry Fund is we lost our dad to suicide. He struggled with PTSD, after being a career firefighter for almost thirty years. So for me, growing up with dad was different because I got to see dad who he really was. Wow. The the funny guy that and Nikki, we all got that experience, but the the younger siblings, I think, got a lot of more of the PTSD symptoms than I did. So for me, dad was this he would piggyback me to my bedroom. I mean, maybe not often, but, you know, at least that was the memory that I got. In high school, he was my first day.

Hannah Knox [00:02:44]:
He stood in the entryway of the school in his uniform to pick me up. Oh, wow. So, yeah, and, you know, it just a lot of a lot of girls would be embarrassed by that. I wasn't. That was my dad. Like, that was just who he was to me, and I have a lot of really good memories when I was younger.

Michaela Terry [00:03:00]:
Yeah. We kinda discussed that before we came on and how the the difference in in the the version we I called him chipper chipper. We you know, dad was chipper chipper to us. Like, we old man, we gave him nicknames. He was always fun, but we were discussing just the perception of him as the years kinda changed him. And as the PTSD progressed, and none of us knew he had PTSD. It wasn't really a thing. He died in 2017.

Michaela Terry [00:03:28]:
He retired from the fire department in 2012. So it was things that we noticed and things that we see now. It's it's, you know, screaming all the signs. But in 2017, it wasn't a huge deal. We're not talked about it in the first responder world. As a veteran, it was talked about frequently. We talk about PTSD a lot. But in the first responder world, it wasn't wasn't super out there yet.

Michaela Terry [00:03:49]:
So now we talk about it and we look back, like, we have a our younger brother, Eli, was was just a goofy quirky little kid, and he would always spill his milk at the dinner table. It's what we perceive. Eli spilled his milk all the time. We always show that he was the klutzy kid. But my mom made the comment recently within the last couple years or so, like, well, I don't think it was Eli spilling his milk more frequently than any of you did. Anytime one of us had a cup, we would spill it. But my dad's reaction to Eli spilling the cup is what we remember. And so that's a huge example that my mom uses when she teaches her classes, you know, from a widow's perspective that, you know, her all of us kids had a different version of Chip, essentially.

Michaela Terry [00:04:30]:
And and the youngest two are adopted from Haiti. So their their perception even, they have their own stuff because they were adopted and they're from, you know, a third one. Country, But that a dad who has has completed suicide and a different version of Chip because they were adopted in 2011 was the process was started.

Jennifer [00:04:52]:
Oh, wow. Okay.

Hannah Knox [00:04:54]:
Right at

Michaela Terry [00:04:54]:
retirement. That was, you know, right at retirement. So we had a lot of different moving pieces in the house, and she was away at school when coming home. And I was, in high school, and then you had the three younger ones who were all have different versions of chips. So I think the differences are just kinda kind of crazy to see. You know? I I'm I'm kind of an anxious person, and the older two in the family are not at all. Eli and I, we're very anxious, and we think that maybe that's correlated to being at home with him and some of his symptoms that, you know, we picked up. He he was anxious.

Michaela Terry [00:05:29]:
He was on edge. He didn't sleep. So as a kid, you see those things, and it's different from when she was five. You know? Yeah. Right. So that's been the biggest thing we've really talked about are the differences in how our dad was each kid.

Hannah Knox [00:05:46]:
He was a great he was a great dad. I mean, we all have really good memories of of But it just it's funny to talk about. You know? Like, I I perceive my Mikaela and our other brother who was also a marine, Noah, they were the favorites. They were the athletes. They were the you know, my other siblings and I are the bookworms. We were the you know? And that he lived vicariously through Mikaela and Noah with the marine corps and their athletic career. Not that he didn't love my other siblings and I, but, you know, there's that there was that bond. And then, you know, dad was the he had to take care of the rest of us.

Hannah Knox [00:06:19]:
Like, he had to protect us. He had to and and that was how he showed his his different way of loving us, whereas he could bond with them for athletics. And then for us, you know, he made a joke one year about me. We were playing foosball. I'm not I'm not super coordinated. He He was like, oh, it's okay, Hannah. At least you're the best reader of the house. Like, that was just

Jennifer [00:06:40]:
just You have other talents. Yeah.

Hannah Knox [00:06:42]:
Yeah. Yeah. You know? So it it's just funny to to talk with each other and see, like, okay. Well, how what do you remember about that?

Ashlee [00:06:49]:
I love the tough love consistency we have as first responder children. Yes. I love, like, the humor that all of us are like, oh, yeah. The my dad would say the same thing.

Michaela Terry [00:07:00]:
Very universal, I think, which is unique to first responder kids.

Jennifer [00:07:04]:
We were talking about the two with one

Michaela Terry [00:07:06]:
of the questions you kind of sent ahead and and what were some of the the challenges or differences you thought, you know, being a first responder kid, but we didn't know Right. At the time until you meet, you know, normal kids. Right.

Ashlee [00:07:19]:
I love that quote. That normal quote.

Michaela Terry [00:07:22]:
The normal kids, we were the kids who, you know, saw dad whenever dad was home, and you got whatever version showed up. And Right. Those kids had you know, dad would be home at 06:00. They would do whatever they did as a family, or if they didn't do anything as a family, whatever. But Yeah. It's it's very different to

Hannah Knox [00:07:38]:
be a first responder kid.

Michaela Terry [00:07:39]:
I feel

Ashlee [00:07:39]:
like I have to highlight how you just said whatever version that was. Yeah. I feel like that is oh, that speaks so much volume, and it's so true for a lot of first responder children. It can look vastly different. And for you guys, right, you've been first off, thank you for being so open and honest with us with everything right away. And and it sounds like you guys were able to see a pretty big transition within your dad throughout the years. Mhmm.

Michaela Terry [00:08:05]:
Looking back now, you know, definitely more noticeable.

Hannah Knox [00:08:08]:
Oh, yeah. When and when I was so I graduated, in 02/2012. So right before he right around the same time that he retired before I I moved off to Washington DC for a year, and and he he he and I went out to dinner one night. And we always growing up, mom and dad would I was 22, probably. Dad mom and dad always made an appoint of there were so many of us. We're gonna do date days. So dad would take each one of us individually. Mom would take each one of us individually.

Hannah Knox [00:08:36]:
Wonderful.

Michaela Terry [00:08:36]:
Yeah. And we

Hannah Knox [00:08:37]:
loved it. That was you know, it it was just neat to be able to have one on one time with our parent. So dad and I went out, and we grabbed a beer and had dinner, and we were having a good time. And I don't even remember what was said, but we got into an argument in the middle of the restaurant. And I we were we were living downtown Covington, and we could walk home from

Michaela Terry [00:08:56]:
Yeah.

Hannah Knox [00:08:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. From the restaurant. And I remember walking home angry at him, and I wouldn't speak to him. And this is a guy who I loved spending time with, and I had really enjoyed those one on one times with him. And I hadn't done it in a while because we grow up. We get busy. And I remember walking in the door before him, and I looked at my mom and I said, he's an asshole.

Hannah Knox [00:09:14]:
I will never go out to dinner with him again. I don't know what happened to him. And he walked one way, I walked the other, and we didn't speak.

Michaela Terry [00:09:21]:
And I

Hannah Knox [00:09:21]:
was I was 22 living in the house with mom and dad getting ready you know, it just so there was a huge, huge difference, and I think that was really one of the first times for me that I saw that he was not the happy, lovable, funny. He wasn't smiling the way he did when we were growing up. Like, there was just that. 02/2012 was a huge year that we saw a big change in him.

Jennifer [00:09:44]:
Well and I think, you know, to your point even and Ashlee and I have pointed this out too on the podcast. Like, when you're little and your parent is a first responder, it's just what it is. There's you're a parent. You're not thinking in that perspective. And I can really appreciate you guys sharing this in terms of how trauma changes the parent, but you're in it, and it's not recognizable. Mhmm. You know? It's only in that reflection being able to say, like, oh, wow. And, also, I think you bring up an incredible point of, you know, somebody struggling with trauma.

Jennifer [00:10:15]:
It's not just them that's suffering and struggling. Like, it has such an impact on the family. And I think, you know, 22 year old you, Hannah, was like, this is what it is. Like, you know, he's a jerk. Yeah.

Hannah Knox [00:10:30]:
And I didn't recognize that until I three died. Like, for me, I just thought this guy didn't want to be around me, that he didn't think that I could have my own opinion as an adult. He didn't respect me. So it was it was that really did change the trajectory of our relationship until he died. I didn't I didn't ever do anything one on one with him again.

Michaela Terry [00:10:50]:
Right? And we coined we coined the the term through the Chip Terry phone. My mom kind of uses it as an example, the jackass syndrome. And Yes. It's exactly what it is because his Chip's favorite word was always jackass. I mean, he puts it off. You know, jackass or Noah, our older brother my older brother, he's number two out of the six, would would say something, and my dad would be like, no. Quit being a jackass. And so we called it the jackass syndrome, and and that's, you know, I think relative to a lot of first responder families.

Michaela Terry [00:11:23]:
Like, you come home and, you know, you don't know what mom or dad just did that day. You don't know if they just, you know, saw the worst thing they can see, whatever it is for the day. And they come home and they're grumpy. Now you're a kid. You're like, well, dad's just being a jerk or jackass. Whatever.

Jennifer [00:11:39]:
Right. And it's hard to, like, have that information. And, again, at 22, technically, our brains are still not developed yet to have all that information to filter. And, again, we can sometimes take that really personal. A parent's had a bad day and is, you know, being a jackass when really, again, like, we can make that, oh, they don't like me or Right. I need to do something to make it better instead of, like, the reality of what that day is, what those experiences are for our first responder parents.

Ashlee [00:12:13]:
I do feel like those assumptions when you're a kid is what leads to so much. Or not like you in your case, 22. Right? I've I can relate very heavily with this of having some some head butts with my dad and feeling that way, right, of being like, oh my gosh. He's just a he's just a jerk. And and it but, unfortunately, it just leaves you to assume all these things. And that's when the relationship really does deteriorate as if you don't come back and you don't talk about it. And we all know that a lot of first responders are not good at that. Right? It's not a not a core strength sometimes.

Ashlee [00:12:45]:
But I think that also my brain, like, my clinician brain, so goes down this path too of, like, how sad it is that anger and you guys can all back me up. All of us have a little bit of this background. Right? That, like, anger and irritability is usually one of the first signs that I see with a a first responder struggling with PTSD.

Michaela Terry [00:13:03]:
Yes.

Ashlee [00:13:03]:
Right? And it's it it I always say I present on this this topic, but I always say, like, we all know, and I see everybody's eyes in the room when I present. We all know that guy who's just kind of an asshole. Like, you guys are saying, like, that jackass. Like, unfortunately, I don't think they want to be. Most people maybe we got one person who just wanna be to be. Right? But, like, they don't want to be. It is the it is the PTSD. It is the anxiety, the depression that kicks in, and that's, unfortunately, that big symptom that we do see.

Ashlee [00:13:34]:
But I can't even it it is incredible to hear you guys speak about this and and our listeners hopefully too. Right? Like, because there's a ton of first responders right now who struggle with that.

Michaela Terry [00:13:43]:
Mhmm. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:13:44]:
So irritable with their families, and they have to reflect on it and where that comes from. So I appreciate that so much.

Michaela Terry [00:13:50]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and you could see it grow as Mhmm. We were kids. The irritability was was there, but it was, you know, he was sleepy because, you know, he just he was in Covington. We're Covington, Kentucky. So that's a that's a busy department.

Jennifer [00:14:04]:
It is.

Michaela Terry [00:14:05]:
And he was a paramedic and he, you know, he went through all the ranks, and he was busy. So he would come home, and none of us went to preschool except for maybe Eli. So we were all whole. My mom was working full time. They they had the a good setup. If he was home, she was at work, and vice versa. So you would see him come home and you would turn on he'd turn on a little dizzy movie for us and he'd fall asleep or we'd be playing with our little dolls or Legos or whatever, and he'd fall asleep. And so I feel like it started out as that and then it grew to irritability when he couldn't sleep.

Michaela Terry [00:14:37]:
And Right. You know, the drinking, and we just saw a lot of things, you know, stack up. And and it's it's very different to see the the symptoms grow, like we, you know, discussed earlier. So Right. The irritability was masking, you know, all of the other things, the inability to sleep and the nightmares and what he called his demons and all of those things. So it's it's first responder kids you you put up with a lot. Yeah. You don't realize you're putting up with it and they're they're trying to do their best.

Michaela Terry [00:15:08]:
But Of course. Now that it's great that we have the resources we have now in a lot of, you know, parts of the country, Kentucky's, you know, really I think one of the leading places surprisingly for PTSD and first responder and firefighters.

Jennifer [00:15:21]:
Yeah.

Michaela Terry [00:15:22]:
We have a a bill from the fire commission that will pay for all mental health services related to job job related PTSD for for for firefighters only.

Ashlee [00:15:31]:
That's incredible.

Michaela Terry [00:15:33]:
So we we've really made a huge push since Chip died to to do that, and it's been awesome as the first responder kid who, you know, has all these great memories of their dad and, you know, as the things deteriorate so that our families don't have to, you know, go through what we've been through.

Jennifer [00:15:48]:
So since we're talking about that, can you talk a little bit more about the foundation? Because this is a good time to kinda share more about that.

Hannah Knox [00:15:57]:
So we started in 02/2018. My mom sat down at the dinner table one day and said, hey. I've been doing some research. Do you guys wanna help us with help me with a project? And she really thought it would be kind of a one and done. We're gonna talk about PTSD to the Covington Firefighters, and then we're we'll that's it. I've done my part, and it has grown significantly. So she does educational seminars across the country. She talks to first responders.

Hannah Knox [00:16:21]:
She talks to administration. She talks to spouses. I think that's probably one of the more unique things as she'll go and sit and talk to first responder spouses and say, here's what I saw. Here's what I missed. Here's here are the symptoms and the signs of PTSD in your loved one. And then we do so the educational piece is large, and then we do we help. And I'll let you talk about those, you know, a little bit more about.

Michaela Terry [00:16:44]:
Great. So the educational piece is, you know, one aspect, but we provide services for financial resources and services for the first responders. So in Kentucky, like I've mentioned, the fire commission will reimburse any expenses for PTSD related, new job related structures for the firefighters. So that's kinda how we started it. We would send them somebody to therapy, and then we would pay the bill for the therapy. And it's grown exponentially. I mean, we've got somebody right now. We're helping from California Oh, wow.

Michaela Terry [00:17:13]:
Massachusetts, Tennessee. I've got a whole list. Georgia. It's it's all over the place. So what we are doing right now, we'll pay for therapy services for the individual. Usually, we we give a a limit if they're not Kentucky Kentucky fire because of the reimbursement rates and stuff. We we we can't pay for everybody.

Hannah Knox [00:17:31]:
Yeah.

Michaela Terry [00:17:32]:
So we'll do, like, you know, five or eight sessions if that individual needs it. But the big thing we're trying to do right now is the Stellagamp Glio box. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them. The VA did some research on it a couple years ago, and I think Dakota Meyer was he was in the military. I think he he he's Purple Heart recipient. And From Kentucky. Mhmm. Yes.

Michaela Terry [00:17:53]:
And he got a sixty minute episode, and he talked about the stellate gate link blocks. And, essentially, it's a shot in I I'm gonna get it wrong, so I'm not even gonna say what c, you know, c four, c five, somewhere in there. But it's supposed to reduce the PTSD symptoms. Basically, like like, reset it is how we explain it. You kinda turn off the light switch and resetting it and turn down your sympathetic system and calm you down. And I've I've gotten one myself. We have done I don't have the numbers right off my head. I think we did a hundred and something.

Michaela Terry [00:18:27]:
I don't have it pulled up. But That's okay. We did over a hundred blocks just this past year. We spent almost a hundred and $70,000 on services last year, and we helped a hundred total a hundred and eighty two first responders.

Jennifer [00:18:42]:
Oh, that's awesome.

Michaela Terry [00:18:44]:
Incredible. So we've grown exponentially. The first year, it started with taking one guy up to the center of excellence. He was a Covington guy, and he was suicidal. And my mom Got on

Hannah Knox [00:18:55]:
a plane.

Michaela Terry [00:18:55]:
Got on a plane with him and flew him to the center of excellence in Maryland, which is a center for first or for firefighters only who who were struggling with PTSD and, I believe, substance use. So that's kind of where it started, and we started with one, and then we kinda picked up and hit, like, 10. And then it was, like, 25.

Hannah Knox [00:19:11]:
And then the year after that, it was, like,

Michaela Terry [00:19:12]:
a hundred. Yeah. Yeah. So we we've grown since 2018 exponentially. And so that's that's essentially what we're doing. And it it's been a wild ride, but it it is so rewarding for, I think, my mom and therapeutic for all of us to see,

Hannah Knox [00:19:31]:
you know, to see the change that that we've had in so many first responders. You know? Your suicide when you when somebody commits suicide, at least for me, the anger piece was the hardest to understand. I was angry at everybody, but I was really angry at dad. Why why would you do this to us? Why would you leave us? Why would you leave mom? And as the oldest, they were gone in the marine corps, the the two middle ones. So it was me and mom and then my youngest siblings and helping take care of how do we figure out how to go through all of this. What is so I and I had a I had a four month old at the time. So I've got all this stress at home on top of dad leaving. And it really was.

Hannah Knox [00:20:09]:
I really was angry at him. And I think starting this foundation and doing the research and realizing the man who committed suicide was not the man that I grew up with. Wow. His brain was totally different by the time he died. He had an injury that could have been helped, and the medical system failed him here. He asked. He asked for help. He went in February, and he went and asked for help.

Hannah Knox [00:20:37]:
Said, I am a first responder. I've been doing a lot of research, and that was something dad was really good at. My dad did a lot. Yes. He learned. He liked to learn. And he he went to the doctors and said, I have PTSD. And instead of getting him help with someone who specialize in PTSD, they sent him to a counselor for addiction and put him on medicine because he they said call him an alcoholic.

Hannah Knox [00:21:00]:
Those are all symptoms of PTSD. So he went to an addiction counselor in intent. It was three days a week for what?

Michaela Terry [00:21:06]:
Like It was an IOP. So he he was in he was in IOP, and he did it for it was three months. And so he completed the IOP. They handed him

Hannah Knox [00:21:16]:
a card and said, this person specializes in p t PTSD. It might take you six to eight weeks to get it. Why wasn't that given to him at the beginning? Right. Right? Not at the end, and then we lost him two weeks later. Wow. So Goodness. For us, the anger well, again, from

Michaela Terry [00:21:32]:
the we all had everybody who lose somebody to suicide,

Hannah Knox [00:21:36]:
there's always gotta be anger. But I think through the foundation, through what we have learned about PTSD and the brain and the trauma, that has helped us cope. I'm not angry anymore. I understand that dad is not that wasn't him. That, you know, the guy that I loved growing up, the guy that stood in front of in front of the school in his uniform waiting for me as a tiny little freshman, that was the guy that was Chip.

Michaela Terry [00:21:58]:
Yeah.

Hannah Knox [00:21:58]:
Not the guy who took his own life. Yeah. So

Michaela Terry [00:22:02]:
it's been it's been amazing. Yeah. You know, it's it's sucks and grief, you know, doesn't just go away. We every September, you know, we all go up to the grave and have our beer at the grave site with them and we celebrate I love that. It's just it's what we did. We, we probably drink too much as a, you know, big Catholic family from Northern Ireland. And, you know, it it is what it is. It's just how we remember him and, you know, we're going on eight years later, and and that's still something we love to do.

Michaela Terry [00:22:30]:
And and we're happy now. It's not like we go to the grave and it's, you know, sad and and depressed. I mean, it's sad and depressing in a certain way, but we all have kids, you know, and we're growing and and it's amazing to to see how well we're doing even after some of the adversities we faced. It's it's wonderful, honestly. I mean,

Hannah Knox [00:22:49]:
it's it's part of his legacy. You know? Like, mom always talks about how he made him he would have admitted that he made a mistake. He wrote a suicide note, and she reads his suicide letter at almost every one of her educational seminars. Wow. And at the end, one of the quotes is mental health is just as terminal as cancer. And she always says to all of the first responders, he would have said he was wrong. He would have said that there is treatment, that there is help knowing what we know today. Yeah.

Hannah Knox [00:23:20]:
So this is our legacy of him.

Ashlee [00:23:23]:
Well and what a beautiful way to honor him. Right? Like, it sounds like you guys are all doing exactly exactly what he probably would have wanted with this too, which is incredible and beautiful. And and I think you guys do it in such a a humble way, and there's all these different things that you're talking about that, you know, as a child of a first responder, but also as a clinician, my brain is like, yeah. Right? Like, we have to advocate for culturally competent, like, first responder therapists.

Michaela Terry [00:23:49]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:23:49]:
And we have to advocate for people to take a second to look at everybody individually instead of just identifying one thing and sending them off. Right? Like Right. There is such flaws in these systems that we need to fix. And I know and I think Jennifer's on this with me. So, Jennifer, chime in. Like, I know that that's, like, a huge passion of mine is how do we get more more therapists, more mental health workers to tap into this field and to specialize in it and to help with it because it's needed. Right? And if people don't understand it, sometimes we're doing more harm to that first responder that goes to see them than we are any good.

Hannah Knox [00:24:24]:
We had a lot of first responders at at the beginning tell us they wouldn't go to therapy because they had been, and the therapist didn't help them. It actually made things worse. Yeah. And and we have vetted Mick and mom have vetted the first the therapist to make sure, and we have a list of people that we trust, for the for the foundation.

Jennifer [00:24:44]:
And that's really that building trust is so important. I mean, you can take all the classes and and be, you know, confident, but you have to gain the trust Mhmm. Of any client, but especially a first responder because they're used to responding to the crisis. They're not in a place to always say, like, let me be vulnerable and the one that's getting the help for sure. Yep. I also just wanna say you guys are such, I mean, gold star kids of a first responder. You know, here's this awful situation, and you guys take that and save a hundred and 80 two. Correct? A 82

Michaela Terry [00:25:23]:
Just a year past year.

Jennifer [00:25:24]:
People in in one year. I mean, I think that that is so a first responder kid's superpower is to take something that's extremely hard. And, you know, I just appreciate you both being so honest and and raw about I was angry at my dad. And the fact that you guys were had the ability to work through that and say that wasn't my dad, and so somebody else has that anger. I love my dad It's incredible. And I do know that your mom does great work. I get, you know, conferences she's gonna be at, emails, and things like that. And, actually, when Mikaela and I were talking about, like, hey.

Jennifer [00:26:01]:
Would you come on the podcast? She's like, yeah. My mom. And I was like, well, I know your mom's amazing, but you're the kid. Like so I'm glad to get, you know, a kid's perspective and the impact of that. Mhmm. For sure.

Michaela Terry [00:26:15]:
Yeah. It's it's, I think, been a passion. And we've always turned out ideas with with the nonprofit of, like, how do we you know, our mission says our first responders and their families. And being the kids, we're we're very passionate about, you know, there there's a lot of kids. I mean, we have just lot on this. Yeah. Just in our area, we've we've had probably one one or two suicides of firefighters and one who who was who we lost as well that we've helped. His wasn't suicide.

Michaela Terry [00:26:45]:
But all of us are firefighter kids. And they're younger and we're, you know, we're the and trauma will affect you differently, obviously, based on your age. You know, we were most of us, the six kids were, you know, 18 and up when he died. But and a lot of, you know, the kids that we we were talking about, they're young grade schoolers and younger and, you know, a six year old, and they're losing their their their parents. So we've always talked about, you know, wanting to be there for the kids. And my mom's the, you know, the the spouse lady. You know?

Jennifer [00:27:13]:
She can

Michaela Terry [00:27:14]:
she's the spouse and she's the, you know, we call her the she just can she can talk. She's like the the frat mom to somebody.

Ashlee [00:27:22]:
I love this.

Michaela Terry [00:27:24]:
She calls herself the frat mom and and then one of the firefighters called her. He said, no. You're not the frat mom. You're the god mom.

Hannah Knox [00:27:30]:
The godmother. And so,

Michaela Terry [00:27:32]:
you know, she gets that that perspective, and we love to just be here if any kid needs it. I know. She's had contact with the kid who who lost his mom to suicide, and it it was good for him to want to reach out to him. I was like, that's amazing. He knows about us. He did some fundraising for us. We helped his mom, and, unfortunately, we didn't we didn't get the right help. You know, she she didn't, you know, find what works for her.

Michaela Terry [00:27:54]:
And so we lost her to suicide. And and this is

Hannah Knox [00:27:57]:
a kid who was angry. He was really angry. Fandably.

Michaela Terry [00:28:00]:
Yeah.

Hannah Knox [00:28:00]:
And didn't, yeah. Exactly. But it was I taught him last year at school, actually, and he he didn't know who I was, but I knew who he was. Yeah. So he was having a really bad day, and our counselor our guidance counselor pulled him in and said, hey. Why don't you just talk to miss Knox? And I said I kind of explained and I said, do you know who Joe Terry is? And he said, yeah. He helped mom. And I said, I'm her daughter.

Hannah Knox [00:28:22]:
And his whole face just fell, and he sobbed, and it just he was able to come and talk to me. So after that, we just had this bond. And I know Mikaela and I would do. We talk about it all the time. How can we help these other kids? Because we've had the ability to process, and we we were older. I was I was 27 when dad died. I think I

Michaela Terry [00:28:42]:
was 22 or 23. So

Hannah Knox [00:28:45]:
yeah, so

Michaela Terry [00:28:45]:
here the kid the the little ones were, you know, 18 and Yeah. Tiny is probably seven six. She was 16. She was younger than that. But so So different span. And once again, that just shows as first responder kids, how the youngest perceives the the loss of Chip to the oldest perceiving loss of Chip. It's it we can we have a lot of, you know, resources and a lot of ways to help, and we're always open to. So if there's everybody anybody that you guys come in contact with that's got a kid that just needs to talk Yeah.

Michaela Terry [00:29:14]:
Then then we're always available. I mean, that's something that we we have a passion for, and we wanna do what we can. Well, I

Ashlee [00:29:20]:
love that because I get that a lot. I get that a lot for children. And that's why we did this too. Right? So I love that very much. Yeah. Jennifer, Jennifer, go ahead with your question because I was gonna kinda go into the fundraising part just because we were on it. But if you are not there yet, you go ahead with your question first.

Jennifer [00:29:36]:
No. I was just thinking how powerful and magical that we're all here together as first responder kids, thinking about first responder kids. That's all. I just got goosebumps. So go ahead, Ashlee.

Ashlee [00:29:48]:
No. Same. I can always read. Like, every time we do these episodes, I I just I feel the same. I get so motivated. Right? I get so motivated for the work that we're all doing. And then to me, people like you, like, it's just an honor. And I heard you say, you know, like, there's fundraising.

Ashlee [00:30:04]:
I know we have a QR code, but what does that look like for people who are listening today that are like, you know what? I wanna donate or I wanna help or I wanna get more involved with this foundation. What can they do?

Michaela Terry [00:30:16]:
So we are run solely on donations.

Hannah Knox [00:30:20]:
Okay.

Michaela Terry [00:30:20]:
We don't we there are no grants. I've looked. I we've had professionals look for us. There's nothing that we qualify for.

Hannah Knox [00:30:27]:
Because we're not veteran focused.

Michaela Terry [00:30:29]:
The veteran population clearly that, you know, we're not there with first responders yet. And and mental health, it it goes right. We're not there yet. I see you thinking about that.

Ashlee [00:30:38]:
I know. Don't I'm a go getter like that. I will be like, oh, I see a I see a barrier. I'm a go break it.

Michaela Terry [00:30:45]:
Let's go. Let's go. We've been trying, and we cannot find it. And so we are still trying, and I haven't given up on the grants, but we are run on donations. We do, you know, one or two big fundraisers ourselves. Some people throw golf outings for us. We do get some you know, we have some income through the fire commission in Kentucky. And our mom's speaking engagements.

Hannah Knox [00:31:04]:
When she goes, usually, we we do it's a small feat because we don't wanna make it so that can't she can't go and talk because somebody can't afford to bring her in

Michaela Terry [00:31:11]:
with

Hannah Knox [00:31:12]:
so she does make some off of her speaking engagements for the nonprofit. For yes.

Michaela Terry [00:31:18]:
I mean, she and I have just recently started taking a small portion of a salary, not even, I mean, that's less than a quarter of what we make. Not even a quarter. So it's donations. Mhmm. And so we've had people just run random things and send us checks, or people can donate through, the website, which the QR code will that we gave you is linked to the website. It's really whatever anybody's willing to donate, word-of-mouth. If somebody you you know? Ashlee, I think you're in Wisconsin. Is that right? Yep.

Michaela Terry [00:31:51]:
I am. You've got a department that wants to have my mom come in and speak about PTSD from the widow's perspective, and they're willing to pay a couple hundred dollars for her to come talk Yep. Then so be it. So she'll come out she's been to Wisconsin actually once or twice already. So she's been all over the place. She'll teach wherever anybody will take her, and she wants this to spread. And we need money because we are getting request upon request. I run the emails, and we probably get 10 a week.

Ashlee [00:32:21]:
Wow.

Hannah Knox [00:32:21]:
He gets phone calls. She'll I mean, there are times where there have been three instances where she has been on the phone with a firefighter with a gun and has talked them off the ledge and gotten them to an emergency. Goodness. Figured out. So, I mean, she answers the phone nonstop. So we're busy. I'm not as busy as

Michaela Terry [00:32:39]:
you are. So but she used to work out. I work all the time. But, you know, it just whatever anybody's willing to do or donate, I mean, we've got departments that'll that'll have, like, a a union fundraiser, like, Cincinnati is gonna do a golf outing

Hannah Knox [00:32:54]:
for us.

Michaela Terry [00:32:54]:
And Nice. There's another department out here, by us that does a golf outing. We have I will tell you now, we have it's basically a textathon that is in, May. We're getting those messages. We would send out a text message to you, and you can forward it on to, you know, five people and ask for a donation. It's basically like a pay it forward type thing.

Jennifer [00:33:17]:
Oh, okay.

Michaela Terry [00:33:18]:
I'll make sure we get in contact prior to that.

Jennifer [00:33:20]:
Yeah. You're gonna need my number. Yes.

Michaela Terry [00:33:22]:
Yes. Uh-huh. I got plenty of contacts. I know you have plenty of contacts. Anybody that's willing to donate because

Hannah Knox [00:33:28]:
of that one last year, we made about 25,000. 20 5 thousand last year.

Michaela Terry [00:33:32]:
Our goal this year we're we're shooting for the stars this year. We're we're shooting for a hundred thousand. I don't know if it'll happen, but our contacts in the last year have grown. So we're gonna

Hannah Knox [00:33:40]:
and we've helped more people. So what we see is the guys and and the women that we've helped then are more willing to help us too.

Jennifer [00:33:47]:
This is so first responders. They're No. It's not gonna pay us.

Michaela Terry [00:33:51]:
We are. We can't help it. And even

Hannah Knox [00:33:52]:
if it's only, like, a $50 like, some of them, it's just $50 every now and then. Or, you know, like, one guy, it's $10 every that that helps. So when she was when she was talking about the blocks, the the slots, those are about $500. 6 6 hundred now. And insurance won't cover them because it's still technically experimental. So we that comes out of ours. And if if it's gonna Kentucky firefighter, we can get reimbursed for that.

Michaela Terry [00:34:15]:
But we've got

Hannah Knox [00:34:15]:
Ohio guys. Our doc is in Ohio. We got Ohio guys that we wanna help, and we that comes out of our pocket, and we don't get reimbursed for that. So it's $600. We usually do two shots, and that's what we have seen to be working the best is is is two shots with therapy. Mhmm. So then it's the two shots, and then it's five right therapy sessions. So now we're spending about $2,400 on

Michaela Terry [00:34:37]:
a person that's using both resources. And there's I mean, we're open to helping with other things. We we haven't really gotten into, like, a lot of different modalities. You know, there's some of the EEG readings with the brain mapping and stuff like that. We haven't dove into that just with the the research time.

Jennifer [00:34:54]:
Seeing results with what you're doing. Yeah. We're seeing results with

Michaela Terry [00:34:58]:
the blocks. And Yeah. We we have a doctor from from, she's a UC doc, and she she's also on at the VA. And she's a big believer in the blocks. So we're doing some research, and she's gonna kinda help us hopefully walk through that. She actually is the founder of I wanna say CPT. One of the founders of CPT and is really big into to treating her first responders and her veterans with that. So we're just we're looking for the most evidence based treatments, and we will help.

Michaela Terry [00:35:29]:
If it's evidence based, we're hoping that whatever we can do to help. So we've got a lot of awesome testimonials about the blocks, so that's really been our big push. We'll we'll have the block and then therapy, and they have to contact us through either the website and kinda talk to my mom, and she interviews pretty much every single firefighter we help to make sure that we're giving them the resources that they need, and we're just hoping that we can keep up. So and once the money's gone, the money's gone. That's what we're trying to to keep everything. We did very well for ourselves last year in in turning that profit and continuing to help everybody, but we need we just need help with funding.

Ashlee [00:36:09]:
Yeah. Well, and I

Michaela Terry [00:36:10]:
think you bring up such

Jennifer [00:36:11]:
a great point too, which you know, I've worked with our military service members and their families, and that's incredible that so much is out there for them related to PTSD. But you're right. Like, there needs to be more for our first responders and how they serve their communities, and they're such a vital part of that. So

Hannah Knox [00:36:33]:
Like, when we started doing the research right after dad died, across the nation, it was suicide rates were higher than line of duty deaths for both first firefighters and police officers. And that was something we you didn't hear about. You don't so and I think it really has been since 02/2018 that people are now more willing to talk about it. And but there is still such a stigma,

Michaela Terry [00:36:54]:
especially in our cops. Yes. Now our yes. Those guys are tough nuts.

Jennifer [00:36:59]:
We are hard headed police officers.

Michaela Terry [00:37:02]:
Yeah. We we've helped we have helped a lot of firefighters and Yeah. Handful of cops. And it is hard and it they carry a firearm. Like, it's understandable. In the military, it's the same way. We carry firearms every now and then. So if you if you are seen as what they call weak and you can't carry your firearm because you're gonna hurt yourself or somebody else, then it's your job's on the line.

Michaela Terry [00:37:24]:
So that stigma in the in in the world of your fathers is way harder to to break than it is with with the firefighters. But we're always open to help our our cops and Yeah. You know,

Jennifer [00:37:37]:
we've got some that you've helped some. I mean, that speaks volumes. You know? Yes. Yes. It is.

Michaela Terry [00:37:43]:
What if we have a cop on our board and he is like he's got a block, and, you know, he's a he's a veteran. He's, you know, did SWAT. He was on you know, the the dude's been through some some tough stuff, and he got one of the blocks. And his wife is a family friend that we grew up with, and we we were over there a couple weeks ago for a board meeting, and it's just he'll tell everybody. He'll get he he tells the guys at work. He's telling everybody, like, look. Let's just do it. What's it gonna do? Hurt you? Like, it's not gonna get any worse, so let's figure this crap out so our wives don't leave us, and our kids have good dads.

Michaela Terry [00:38:16]:
You know? Yeah. So we got a cop on our side. We just need some more.

Jennifer [00:38:21]:
Maybe we just make it a competition between Yeah.

Ashlee [00:38:23]:
They'll jump right on fire.

Jennifer [00:38:26]:
On who's gonna get the most help, and maybe that will motivate them

Hannah Knox [00:38:31]:
a little bit more.

Ashlee [00:38:32]:
They love a competition. We do love And it's so funny. It is so funny for you guys to say that because I and I don't know if it's right. Because we're I feel the opposite. I feel like I struggle more with my firefighters getting on board with mental health here in Wisconsin than my

Michaela Terry [00:38:46]:
police. Like I think it's just we in our Northern Kentucky region, we're, you know, tristate Ohio and Indiana, we have a a lot of people knew Chip. So his he was an assistant chief when he retired. He was well known in the fire fire world in this area. So when and nobody expected it to be him that committed suicide. Everybody's like, it was a surprise. It was a shock. Some of these guys that are retired from Covington or on at Covington still struggle with the fact that it was him.

Michaela Terry [00:39:12]:
Mhmm. And it is it which it's been to our advantage that he was who he was because we've got guys that are like, oh, yeah. I knew your dad. And, you know, he's been gone eight years almost, and they're like, I knew your dad. And you know what?

Ashlee [00:39:26]:
Like, I

Michaela Terry [00:39:26]:
need some help. Yeah. And I think

Hannah Knox [00:39:28]:
that was why we started. Yeah.

Michaela Terry [00:39:29]:
We got

Hannah Knox [00:39:30]:
a we got a guy after dinner's funeral. We had over 400 people show up at the funeral. He just he he was a leader in the community. He worked with all fire departments to help change their their training. Training. That kind of stuff. Even when he retired, he was a we had somebody call him a firefighters guy. Like, he just was there for the firefighters.

Hannah Knox [00:39:49]:
So we had a guy after his funeral come up to mom and say, Chip was my hero. But I know if I don't get help, I will be Chip. Mhmm. And that was kind of the ball that started the foundation, was hearing from these other guys who looked up to dad, who didn't who I mean, it was it was a shock through our community. It it wasn't just us. Everybody we got I got emails and the comments on Facebook and the everything that the weeks after he died, the months after he died where nobody could believe it was him because he had his shit together, at least on the outside.

Michaela Terry [00:40:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. So whatever people wanna do to help us work at Hitchin.

Ashlee [00:40:30]:
Well, we're gonna promote it. And we gotta I I know when the call hits home. I know our little group is always willing to help. We're, you know, we are so blessed with such great followers and people who support us. And so I know they're gonna hear this, and it's gonna make an impact on them like it is on me and Jennifer right now.

Hannah Knox [00:40:46]:
Right. Absolutely.

Michaela Terry [00:40:46]:
And we're open and to help anybody from anywhere. You know, if you have somebody listening from anywhere in the nation, we're willing to help. We've had we've had guys, you know, flying he was from California, I think, was a couple weeks ago. Flew him from California, got himself a block. Mhmm. You know, had dinner with my mom. She you know, they talked. We helped him get to a different it's a retreat that we sent him to for, suicidal first responders and veterans, and it you know, he's he's feeling good.

Michaela Terry [00:41:15]:
He went home, and he's happy, and he's hopefully you know, wants to he wants to repair his marriage, and hopefully, they can. And that's what we're seeing, hopefully, marriages that can be repaired. And if they can't be repaired, they can at least be, you know, civil Mhmm. Which is Right. Sometimes, you know, the damage might be too far done, and they get the help too late, but that doesn't mean the rest of their life is over. So A hundred. We're always here to help anybody that's listening, and we can reach out through the website, and we're there for it.

Jennifer [00:41:43]:
I do I I have to be honest. I did not realize it was so national. Like, that's awesome. I just thought you guys were, you know, Northern Kentucky, Ohio. And so to hear that this is something that you guys are willing to help throughout the country is incredible.

Hannah Knox [00:41:59]:
Yeah. And and his mom. I mean, if to sit and listen to her, she has the ability to connect with people no matter who you are. If you're a spouse, a child, an administrator, you know, she has the ability to sit and just talk to you and say, look. This this is what happened. This is real. You can't ignore it, and we're gonna help. How do you

Michaela Terry [00:42:19]:
need me? And the big thing I think that helps her with a lot of these individuals, especially the administration and the governmental side, she said it's not my job as a widow to care for all of these first responders. She said, I'm going to do it because somebody has to, but it it's not. It's not our job as kids of a first responder who died to to be out there helping them. Our government, our our administrations should be taking care of their people, and, unfortunately, they're not, which is why we're in the it's an epidemic of suicide in our first responders. Mhmm. So I think she has a very good ability to make people see that this is a big deal. It's not just one or two people that are losing their lives to suicide. There are hundreds of thousands of first responders in in the country who are taking their lives every year, and it's it's preventable.

Michaela Terry [00:43:13]:
Suicide is preventable in most cases and in all cases, I think. And Yeah. And, unfortunately, somebody is dropping the ball somewhere. So she lead to that.

Hannah Knox [00:43:23]:
She has the ability to make people feel guilty without you knowing. That's that mom's superpower. Right?

Michaela Terry [00:43:31]:
She's got enough kids that she practiced on.

Jennifer [00:43:35]:
Well, another reason why people should have her at their events to let her kinda share, so I appreciate that too. And I'm sure there's places on the website too if if a agency is interested Mhmm. In, you know, having hers to reach out to the site. And, again, like we said, we will include that in the show notes. It'll be something that we'll be talking about when

Ashlee [00:43:56]:
that comes out. Code too. We'll make sure

Michaela Terry [00:43:58]:
that It should take you right to the website, and we did it all ourselves. So it's not professionally done. My husband and I are not professionals. So we're we're we're working on getting somebody to

Ashlee [00:44:09]:
work. Great.

Michaela Terry [00:44:10]:
He did a good job. I'll give that credit to him. So he's he's done a wonderful job, but we're trying to keep up with it. We got a lot on our lot of plates spinning right now. So Well

Jennifer [00:44:21]:
and it also speaks, you know, to a a mom and pop kinda shop here. You guys are running as a family, but here we are. You know? Like, here we are talking on this platform about an incredible program. So I think whatever you're doing, it's working clearly.

Michaela Terry [00:44:35]:
Well, thank you. We're we're hoping so, and we're hoping that we can continue to help because we've got more people to probably send you, Jennifer. Right? We get calls all the time, and you your people from Louisville are are popping out of the woodwork recently. So we're gonna get you some more. So hopefully, you're you're not closing off to clients right now.

Jennifer [00:44:52]:
Not at all. Not at all. They're all welcome for sure.

Michaela Terry [00:44:55]:
We greatly appreciate the two of you working with our first responders because that is that is our hardest piece is is finding the clinicians. We we started with one or two that we knew, you know, that we were confident in and we grew, and it's like, well, we're running out of people to see our people. So we

Hannah Knox [00:45:14]:
need more people. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:45:15]:
Well, fun fact, you guys, I'm out of Wisconsin, but I do I am credentialed in Kentucky.

Hannah Knox [00:45:20]:
So Oh, there you go.

Michaela Terry [00:45:22]:
That. Good to know. I will

Jennifer [00:45:23]:
keep that in mind.

Michaela Terry [00:45:25]:
Yeah. Keep that in mind.

Ashlee [00:45:27]:
Absolutely. Well, thank you guys so so much. Jennifer, do you have any other questions for them or anything? I mean if

Jennifer [00:45:32]:
there was anything else that you guys wanted to share, before we wrap up. You guys have shared so much. But

Michaela Terry [00:45:41]:
I don't I appreciate you having us on. It's been it's been kind of therapeutic. We never get to hang out just the two of us either. So she love this. This is this is nice that we get get some time to kind of to talk about it, and

Hannah Knox [00:45:53]:
it's yeah. It's what we're

Michaela Terry [00:45:55]:
passionate about.

Ashlee [00:45:56]:
I love that you guys were able to, like, look at these questions and have a conversation because Jennifer and I both, like, interviewed our so she has a brother. I have two sisters. So but that was the first time that I sat down with my sisters, and I said, what was this like for

Jennifer [00:46:10]:
you? Right?

Hannah Knox [00:46:11]:
I don't know if we've ever done that.

Michaela Terry [00:46:14]:
I mean, we have just not not embarrassed like these. But never yeah.

Ashlee [00:46:18]:
Yeah. And then it was so pow like, it was so cool to see. And, like like you guys said, like, it was definitely this whole dynamic of, like, oldest is I'm the baby.

Michaela Terry [00:46:30]:
We have a family. Oh, they're the worst.

Jennifer [00:46:33]:
Our relationship works really well, guys, because I'm the oldest she's gonna make me. We already have our roles. So

Ashlee [00:46:39]:
Yeah. Yeah. But I just love that this kind of did that for you guys too and maybe, hopefully, has you guys have conversation with your other siblings too. And Yeah. And it goes kinda farther than that that because it's incredible. It's incredible to talk about and to have each other.

Jennifer [00:46:53]:
Yeah. I, I can't take credit for this. This was a, family therapist that told me long ago this, and I I use it all the time, that that families are like you're at, for Ashlee, a Bears game. You know? It's like going to a football game, and you guys are all in different seats. And so what looks like a touchdown to one person's seat, if the other person says no, his he didn't make it in. And so I think that that's interesting. You guys kinda bring that up. Like, well, I was the oldest, and so it was like this for me.

Jennifer [00:47:25]:
And, you know, we have younger siblings, but it was totally different for we all kinda have a different view of the game, when we're in a family with siblings. So, again, I can't take credit for that, but that's always made a bunch of sense for me. And I appreciate that reinforcing that.

Michaela Terry [00:47:41]:
I really like that. I really like that.

Ashlee [00:47:44]:
I'm a freak about football. So, like, all of a sudden, I was, like, locked in. I'm like, this is so true.

Jennifer [00:47:48]:
I knew if I mentioned the Chicago Bears, you would be paying attention, Ashlee.

Hannah Knox [00:47:53]:
Oh, yeah.

Ashlee [00:47:53]:
Pull me back in always with that talk.

Hannah Knox [00:47:56]:
Alright.

Ashlee [00:47:57]:
Well, thank you guys so so much. We are honored to have you on here. We will be sharing this everywhere. We want everyone to know about you guys. We wanna stay in touch with you guys and keep doing some things. It sounds like I have some barriers to break down with grants. But Yeah. I would love to finish this off by saying what we always say, and that's just when the call hits home, Jennifer and I are here for you guys, and we just cannot wait for you all to hear this.

Ashlee [00:48:19]:
So thank you guys again for coming on.

Michaela Terry [00:48:22]:
Thank you. We appreciate it.