Navigating the Complex Dynamics of First Responder Therapy

Jennifer [00:00:07]:
Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Sailor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop. And this is the podcast when the call hits home. Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner.

Ashlee [00:00:18]:
I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer.

Jennifer [00:00:23]:
Hi, and welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer.

Ashlee [00:00:27]:
And I'm Ashlee. And before we get started today, I have to call this out. I may sound a little different. I know I put it on our socials, but I did get Invisalign. So I'm working on these teeth, and sometimes my speech is a little a little off, but we're gonna give it a go today. And, hopefully, it's not too bad because

Jennifer [00:00:47]:
I can't get it. Bad at all, but everybody, she really wanted to get it out there that she thinks she sounds funny. I think she sounds wonderful as well.

Ashlee [00:00:56]:
Had a firefighter call me Daffy Duck. So so I feel as though I have to call myself out before

Jennifer [00:01:04]:
Right. Before they call you out?

Ashlee [00:01:07]:
Yeah. What what is that with these firemen? They think they can just

Jennifer [00:01:11]:
Oh, the first responders, they won't let you get by with anything, will they?

Ashlee [00:01:14]:
No. We're well, I just said this. Dedicating our lives to this, and here we are.

Jennifer [00:01:20]:
And then they're calling you Daffy Duck. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:01:22]:
And I love it because if they weren't picking on me, you might be in a little bit more trouble.

Jennifer [00:01:28]:
Exactly. It's definitely a a sign of love in the first responder world if you're getting teased.

Ashlee [00:01:34]:
Oh, I just wanted this leads perfectly into what we wanted to discuss today because we were making some videos, doing our little marketing stuff together, and we realized that while, yes, we are very heavy on what it's like to be a child of first responder, we don't want that to go anywhere. That's still our main

Jennifer [00:01:50]:
thing here. We'll be here forever

Ashlee [00:01:52]:
with that.

Jennifer [00:01:53]:
Yes. Right?

Ashlee [00:01:54]:
We also recognize that we haven't really tapped into much, I guess, on the clinical side. And I was venting, I'm gonna put that out there, venting respectfully about other kind of clinicians and how they've approached maybe this first responder world because there's not there's not much of us. I wouldn't say No.

Jennifer [00:02:16]:
There's not. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a very small group. I'm I'm trying to think, like, back home in here. Yeah. I mean, it's just not a big, huge group.

Ashlee [00:02:28]:
I think that you and I are blessed because we back where we work together, right, like, of course, our group is specific for first responders.

Jennifer [00:02:38]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:02:38]:
So we're kinda lucky that we're surrounded by but even then, what is that? Like, 10 clinicians altogether? 10 to 12?

Jennifer [00:02:45]:
Yeah. I mean, it's not a big group, and that's pulling from an entire state. And, you know, I'm out of state, and you're out of state with that too. So that's not even, I guess, in the state. Yeah. So yeah. I mean, that's a good point as well. And I just think it's important, you know, when talking about this, there's just a lot that goes into having a therapist.

Jennifer [00:03:09]:
I think I'll start with a little bit of it's like dating and who wants to do that. But, you know, finding a good therapist, like, it's not just the first therapist you walk in an office with that may be not be a fit. And then, I guess, talk a little bit about the the qualification and competency of a first responder therapist? Like, what's a little bit from the clinical side is important with that?

Ashlee [00:03:36]:
Yeah. Do you want me to answer that right now? Look at you throwing it. You're like, let's go.

Jennifer [00:03:40]:
You said we're doing questions.

Ashlee [00:03:41]:
I know we are. Sorry. Yeah. Well, the first thing that I do kinda wanna say just because we have listeners on here is that we can't obviously, we're not your therapist. So, like, while we're giving you this education and we want you guys to take it, please don't come back to us in a little bit here. Like, we would love to take on everybody, though. That's for sure. I'm just saying, obviously, it's a little caveat.

Ashlee [00:04:02]:
We have to put that out there that in this role, we can't be everything for everybody, and so we just hope you take this as education. But I think that there is I think there's a lot of barriers, and I think there's a lot of things that in order for a therapist to be competent is that rude? Was that

Jennifer [00:04:21]:
I don't think that's rude.

Ashlee [00:04:22]:
In first responders, there are, like, vast differences. And I know in one of the little videos we just posted, we kinda gave a hint to what we're talking about today. Right? Is that culturally aware of what it is like to be a first responder, I think, is so important. So let's take what I just started with. Right? It's such a little example, but the humor Mhmm. The dark humor, the pick on you behaviors that we get from our first responders, is there is there love language almost. Right?

Jennifer [00:04:53]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:04:54]:
And while you and I like, to me, that's second nature. Like, my dad my dad Right. You know what I mean? Makes fun of me all day every day. So I definitely think that, like, it to me, I'm so used to it, and I I do love it. I love to also give it back to them. I think what's fair. But I can recognize how quickly, like, a different therapist may not understand that.

Jennifer [00:05:18]:
And some not understand it

Ashlee [00:05:19]:
at all. With are really bad. Right? Like, really dark stuff.

Jennifer [00:05:23]:
Mhmm. A gallows humor is what I've been told by first responders. And I think that it's interesting because from my perspective hearing that and how I feel with clients, it's like rapport building. Right? Like, it's, you know, this putting people at ease. Like, I need to know that you're safe, so I gotta make fun of you a little bit and see if I can rib you and if that's okay. And I think for some clinicians, you know, they just don't have that ability to kinda be in a little bit of that gray spot. Yeah. And so I think that that's a good example of the difference of that for sure.

Jennifer [00:05:59]:
Do you I mean, I have some horror stories that I've heard of first responders going to therapist. One in particular I can think of is, you know, a first responder going to a therapist sharing their experience, and the therapist, you know, become physically like, have an emotional response, and the first responder seeing that. And the session ended up with the first responder making the therapist feel at ease about the situation. And that, sadly, I don't think that's that's just one of many of those kind of stories.

Ashlee [00:06:38]:
Yes. I have heard a lot of that before too. And I think what's what's important if you're a therapist wanting to work with first responders, right, is recognizing one, and we can kinda go back to this if you would like to, but, like, their trauma is vastly not that all trauma is very important. Right? Like, traumatic situations and things like that, and it's bad per person. I'm not trying to say anything like that. But for some therapists, the amount of trauma and the type of trauma is incredibly hard for them to digest.

Jennifer [00:07:09]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:07:09]:
Right? And if you are not prepared to take on that, it really can leave a therapist probably, just like you're saying in that example Right. Overwhelmed, having an emotional response. I think we also tend to forget that our first responders, this is what they work for

Jennifer [00:07:24]:
is to protect them. Exactly.

Ashlee [00:07:27]:
And the minute as a therapist you show them, like, that you can't handle it, they do go into work mode. How do I fix this? Sorry. I have to stop there because I hear that from every first responder. How do I fix it? Right? But how do I fix this? And I wanna fix it with you. I don't want I don't want you to be exposed to the things that I'm exposed to. I've heard that a million times before too.

Jennifer [00:07:54]:
I have heard that as well. That's a good reminder. I haven't heard that one in a while, but I definitely have heard this idea of why would I want to traumatize somebody else with the trauma, which is, you know, what I love about our first responders. They wanna protect people in so many ways and even to this to, you know, this act of I would be a burden to kinda unload on a therapist, all that I've seen. And recognizing that there are, you know, competent therapists that have their skills and their ability to hear that and not take it on, which is, I think, what you're looking for in a therapist that can respond to first responders.

Ashlee [00:08:33]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And I it's one of those things too. Right? Like, how do you how do we get actually, I'll throw this question to you, if you don't mind. Okay. Right? Because my brain's going with it. And while we were just talking there, I pulled up. So everybody knows that I try to take on the world.

Ashlee [00:08:50]:
I don't hide that. So I'll queue you in on this little course that I've been trying to create for therapists. So I pulled that up because I was like, you know what? Let me make sure I'm hitting on some of these things that I have already put down on a paper and think are incredibly important. But, like, when you look at a first responder and we're talking about trauma, we're talking about all these different things, like, how do you, as a therapist, Jennifer, make them feel comfortable in your office then?

Jennifer [00:09:18]:
That's a good question. I think what I start with is just being really open and honest. It's interesting with first responders. I think they need a lot of background about who I am, where I come from. I can't just be a complete stranger, though I am. So I think that that's a piece of letting them know a little bit about who I am, I think, is a start. But I also, you know, go back to it's such a exercise in trust. Yep.

Jennifer [00:09:53]:
You know, I I give a background in in things like that. I think that's a way in which I offer that. I acknowledge you know, the first time I'm gonna meet somebody, I'm gonna ask you a thousand questions, and that's just, you know, just trying to see how I can best serve you and, you know, also give the option of, like, if there's a question you don't wanna answer. I think sometimes it's nice to create a space of, like, you get to drive the ship a little bit here. And I think for first responders, especially with maybe having a little bit of control, this is something outside of our comfort zone so much, just giving them a little piece of that. You know, nowadays, I get to say that I've worked with first responders for a long time, and so that I think buys me a little bit of credit. But previously to that, you know, it I didn't have that initially. And so it is something that you're just trying to offer control.

Jennifer [00:10:48]:
And I also think I've been doing it long enough, and I've been interrogated by enough I was just about to say. Yeah. I have been interrogated by enough first responders, and I think that they can say that, like, that doesn't scare me or bother me. Like, I I recognize, like, they need that, and I respect that. And whatever questions you have, and if you wanna see every single note I write, whatever that is to make you feel safe and comfortable, I'm willing to accommodate that. Because this is, again, like I said in our little video, like, therapy is a hard thing. It's not an easy thing. And so whatever I can do to offer some levels of comfort with that, I would.

Ashlee [00:11:30]:
Yeah. No. I love that so much, and it is true. I've had that happen to me too. I do think there's some testing that some of our first responders will do, which I think is fair. Right? Like, I recognize when it's happening. But But if you're a therapist who doesn't work with first responders, right, that can be kind of intimidating, and it's important for people to recognize that. But it's also important, I think, for our listeners who may be clinicians, who may be first responders, children, what have you, right, to know that it is your right to do that, though, too.

Jennifer [00:12:00]:
Exactly. And then I think that's why I go back. It's, you know, such a silly acknowledging about, you know, finding a therapist, kinda like dating. But I I say this to all my clients as well. Like, I hope, you know, it works out and and that I'm a good fit for you. But, you know, therapists are kinda like shoes, and sometimes you have to try on a couple pairs. You know, there's that pair that, oh my gosh, they look great. They're so awesome, but they rub blisters.

Jennifer [00:12:27]:
And then there's that pair that is way too loose, and it's just, you know, doesn't fit. And, you know, there can be that funky pair, but it fits just perfect. You know, you kinda have to see if that fit. And listen. You know, trust your gut. If it doesn't feel like a good fit, that's okay. It's not about the therapist's feelings about you because this space is about you.

Ashlee [00:12:52]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's so fair too. I think that's something that I've always stressed. And this may be a little thing, but to some people, it's a pretty big one too. Right? Working with first responders is, like, I do have some first responders that come right when they get off shift or what have you. And so weapons are a are a thing. Right?

Jennifer [00:13:13]:
Yep.

Ashlee [00:13:14]:
Yep. And I don't care. But, again, is that because I grew up with that? So, like, to me, I don't stop to even think about it. I have been kind of I don't I don't know what the right word would be it, but, like, if someone sees it or recognizes it, like, I've been kind of been like other clinicians that I work with or close to being like, oh, you don't mind that? I mean, again, I don't. I don't know if that's because I am a child of first responder. And so to me, like I said, guns are just what they are. But I also know that speaking from my clinician brain, that is something that if they're finally coming to talk to me, right, like, in opening up and feeling safe and secure, like, you keep I don't know. I want your feedback on this.

Ashlee [00:13:58]:
I'm not saying I'm right

Jennifer [00:13:59]:
or wrong

Ashlee [00:13:59]:
here, but, like, that their service weapons are huge comfort and safety to them in a lot of different ways. I don't know. Like, as a clinician, I would never never even think to ask them to not have that here. Now most of the time when they're off duty, they don't. Right?

Jennifer [00:14:13]:
Like, you

Ashlee [00:14:13]:
just don't. But, like, I'm a wouldn't be the first one to tell a first responder or police officer more specifically. Right? Like, you can't have that. And I think that's vastly obviously different than doing therapy with civilians most of the time.

Jennifer [00:14:27]:
No. I definitely agree with that. It's interesting. I'm like, yeah. I am more concerned about you having your radio off and your phone on silent and your smartwatch off. Like, I'm more interested in you getting to be completely focused in our session whether you have your weapon on or not. Now I do think we get in a different conversation when there are thoughts of suicide, you know, when there are things like that. And that is I I just wanna point that out there.

Jennifer [00:14:56]:
I know you know that difference, Ashlee. I just wanna say that for the listeners that, you know, that would be a different conversation that a therapist might have with the first responders if they have a concern, you know, that somebody might use their weapon to harm themselves. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I again, that's, you know, not unusual, but I think it's a good point. And what oh, this is the other thing I wanted to say to that. I hear a clinician has an issue, which a clinician has a right to have an issue. I'm not saying anything about that.

Jennifer [00:15:27]:
But I think you're putting another hurdle between a first responder and getting services. And, again, I think how you show up saying, like, hey. It doesn't bother me. Why would I create any other, you know, boundary or any other thing that makes it harder for you to come in and sit in my office and us talk?

Ashlee [00:15:44]:
Well and I just think grand, like, grand scheme when I'm talking about this too. Like, isn't this why police officers don't want to come? Mhmm. Because of that, and let's take it there. Right? Like, that stigma. That notion of, like, if I finally go to therapy, I'm nervous that it's gonna get back to my job. I'm nervous that I'm gonna lose my job. I mean, these are just things that I've heard from, you know, law enforcement, even fire, any you know, coming in. Right.

Ashlee [00:16:15]:
I I'm fearful that they're gonna take away my weapons because I'm getting mental health help, like, all these things that create, I think, barriers in their own mind. Is I mean, some of it may be true. I'm not here to

Jennifer [00:16:26]:
say Of course.

Ashlee [00:16:26]:
We know that there's dysfunction within organizations. I haven't been quiet about that. So some of this may be true, but I think that, like right? Like, I guess that's where my brain goes is so big scheme here is is I think that's a huge barrier.

Jennifer [00:16:40]:
Yeah.

Ashlee [00:16:41]:
The stigma and the notion of, like, all these things can be taken away from me, and these are all things that I I love and I do, and I they're my protective factors.

Jennifer [00:16:51]:
I think it's good that you bring that up as well because that's not one thing that I was on my list when we were kinda talking about cultural competence and hurdles and stuff that wasn't on my list. So I'm glad that that is something that you bring up because I think that's true for our first responders. Yeah. The other thing is I think you're bringing up the confidentiality piece. Like, you know, would this make me lose my job, or could people find out and things like that? I have some really strong feelings about that. Number one, Ashlee, I mean, the one thing we get to offer our clients is confidentiality. Like, that is the cornerstone of what I do. It's why it is different than just talking to a friend.

Jennifer [00:17:36]:
You know? It's why it is different than just going and blowing steam with your buddies, drinking some beers. Like, there's this beautiful thing about confidentiality that whatever is said minus three things. Right? That's if you're gonna harm yourself, someone else, or any kids. That's something we'll always have a conversation upfront, but we can talk about anything, and it's completely confidential. And, you know, I've had people that have so concerned about that that we don't use their insurance, and it gets I couldn't even tell you their name if you ask me because, you know, making it so hard to not have any records of that. But I think that that is something that's really important, you know, that you should be able to talk to your therapist and know that none of that information is ever gonna go anywhere. That has to be something. And I and I have some concerns with colleagues at times.

Jennifer [00:18:33]:
Ashlee, I've probably told you this story before. I got a letter from attorney's office about something, and I had a colleague I was working with who was like, woah. Well, you just need to send them the records. And I said, this is a letter from an attorney. Like, I don't have to send anything. And it just made me sad that, like, they did not have the awareness to know, like, the difference between a subpoena. And even if you are a subpoena, you can talk to a judge. Like, I've done that before.

Jennifer [00:19:02]:
Y'all, I will fight tooth and nail. People are not getting my information. Like, you have to give me that permission for me to even acknowledge that. And even then, I would fight to share that. So I don't know. I think that's an important thing to recognize in our field, and I think first responders really need to know that. You know, obviously, you work within organizations. I don't know if you have different feedback with that as well.

Ashlee [00:19:31]:
In terms of, like, confidentiality? So Yeah. I think that something that I have learned where I'm at now is really beautiful because they take that to a very high degree. Like Mhmm. I don't get pressured. I've never been pressured from anybody higher up or anything like that ever asking who's coming to see me. They they literally, they're like, I don't even wanna know. Like, I they don't ask. They don't push.

Ashlee [00:19:57]:
They don't

Jennifer [00:19:58]:
It's beautiful. Like that,

Ashlee [00:19:59]:
which is beautiful because and this isn't to scare people. This is just the realities and the truth is that's not how it is at some places. Right?

Jennifer [00:20:08]:
No. It's not, sadly. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:20:10]:
But I think so I don't know, and I don't wanna be too boring. I don't wanna bore people. But there is, like, confidentiality and then there's privilege. Mhmm. Privilege takes a kind of a step even further than confidentiality. As a therapist, we have privilege, which is a really good thing that's on our side, helps us in these events such as being subpoenaed and things like that. Right? And I and I don't wanna go into all of that. People could also look it up.

Ashlee [00:20:35]:
But, like, here in the state of Wisconsin, I spoke to pass a bill, to help pass a bill. And what they're trying to do is and it got passed, which is pretty cool. But

Jennifer [00:20:44]:
That's awesome.

Ashlee [00:20:45]:
I know. I was so nervous. But what they're trying to do is and, again, we don't have all day here. Maybe people feel opposite or what have you, but, what we're trying to do here is get it so peer support members also have privilege.

Jennifer [00:21:02]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:21:03]:
We're trying to really bolster this peer support in Wisconsin. Now, obviously, there's a lot of caveats to that, the way it's written

Jennifer [00:21:09]:
Of course.

Ashlee [00:21:09]:
A lot to it. So that's why it's, like, hesitant of me to even bring this up. But I say that because that's how far, at least with the departments that I'm working with here, they are going to try to show their members that, hey. We're we're in this to protect you at every every angle we can. Right. Because at the end of the day, we just I think we're all so tired of seeing those numbers of suicides higher than anything else. Right? Yeah. We have to put things into place, and this is the way to do it.

Ashlee [00:21:40]:
And so I'm very blessed on that end. But I will say that, like, of course, I know when we bring organizational dysfunction and unhealthy people, just like there is in every

Jennifer [00:21:52]:
Of course. Of course.

Ashlee [00:21:54]:
To the table that people wanna push push that button and wanna give it you know, like, want you to give it up, want you to share and things like that, and you can't.

Jennifer [00:22:04]:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Ashlee [00:22:06]:
You just can't.

Jennifer [00:22:07]:
Yeah. And it's hard. But I think that that's something that you should always feel with your therapist, that they're out to protect your information and what you've shared. Yeah. And I do think that is beautiful that you guys are really making some legislations and and protecting that and honoring that. You know, unfortunately, I hear kind of the opposite. If anybody even says you know, at one time, I was thinking about arming myself. They wanna, like, lock it down.

Jennifer [00:22:39]:
You know? They're just so scared about, you know, some liability piece instead of just really honoring, like, no. If somebody's being honest about that, We can help them. It's just when people aren't talking about it. It's when people don't have anybody to share with and speak that that's when the real dangers happen. And so I think it's great that that's moving in that direction.

Ashlee [00:23:05]:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I think that, actually, this whole topic is what motivates me more so than anything is because I have I have, like, a little bit of a little bit of a front row seat to a department literally going great lengths as to calling centers to try to ask about their people and stuff. And, like, why are we doing that? Like, what Right. What good could possibly come from that? Like, if we are getting the help we need and everything you know what I mean? Like, I'm just very passionate about this because in my eyes, and I've said this before, and I'll say it till the day I hopefully retire. You never know. But, like, if our officers or firefighters, whoever, are better mentally, they're going to be better on the job.

Ashlee [00:23:54]:
They're going to be better for their communities.

Jennifer [00:23:56]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:23:57]:
If it's a system, Sarah, we have to start somewhere. So whether that be with an individual person, which obviously you and I both work very heavily at that, then let it be. So be it. Why why do we have and I think this goes right into our discussion that we're having right now. Right? This all other part of being culturally aware. Because I'll be honest, a lot of these departments are a little bit better than, like, Bravo TV, reality I'm like, first off, if this was a show, I would be watching it.

Jennifer [00:24:29]:
As the fire firehouse turns. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:24:32]:
Yeah. Right? Like, oh, let me get my popcorn and let me yeah. Exactly. Like, because the real the real housewives ain't got nothing on this apartment.

Jennifer [00:24:42]:
And I will say some of these, these first responders, these, you know, big burly dudes, they got all the tea. They're willing to gossip, and it's like, come on now.

Ashlee [00:24:55]:
Guys. But all of it. All of it. Right? And then guess what? It almost feels like and this is with every department that I've worked with. Right? It almost feels like it's somebody's turn every day of the week. Right? Mhmm. Like, it's it's and and that organizational piece, this is where it all comes in. But it's it's super important.

Ashlee [00:25:13]:
I don't wanna go down that rabbit hole to be aware of that as a therapist because there's so many times when I sit in my office that I have no control Mhmm. Over what is going on because the department is coming after somebody, and they feel like their back's up against the wall. Right? And that's hard as a therapist, but you have to learn how to work with all of that.

Jennifer [00:25:34]:
Absolutely. And then, you know, we have small communities at times. You know? You could have three people from the same place coming in with three different sides of the same story too. You know? And and I think as a therapist, you have to be able to compartmentalize that and be present for each one of those in a different way.

Ashlee [00:25:54]:
So I'm gonna take this here really fast. So look at I'm waiting for your eyes to be like, Ashlee, do not do it. But if you know me, I'm a little bit of the if people haven't realized this, I'm a little bit of the wild child.

Jennifer [00:26:07]:
Yes. I'm the oldest responsible, and you're the baby. It's it's our dynamic. It's our dynamic.

Ashlee [00:26:12]:
Back in, you're like, Jesus, Lord, Ash. This is, like when we're talking about drama, one thing that I feel like, as a clinician, you have to be prepared for because I'm throwing myself under the bus. Infidelity is huge within these departments.

Jennifer [00:26:27]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:26:28]:
It is a thing. Right? I mean that with all my respect and love, but it's real, and I'm not gonna hide it. It is so hard as a clinician sometimes to work with that when, like, your own thought is like, oof. Right? You're a human before you're a clinician, and you have to really check those those bias thoughts and everything. But it is hard to work with stuff like that. But it's also important to recognize that those things happen when you're working with first responders. And and I use biology of the brain to back some of that stuff up.

Jennifer [00:26:56]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:26:57]:
And to completely understand it.

Jennifer [00:26:59]:
But I'm an attachment kinda gal when it comes to those things, but yes. A %.

Ashlee [00:27:04]:
Right? Like, a %, you have to you have to take into account all those things instead of just hearing at face value. I think it would be really easy for a therapist who isn't in this field to recognize that there's a lot more to that than just hearing the infidel part.

Jennifer [00:27:20]:
Right. Right. That you're a dirty dog and yeah. Yeah. All those kind of things for sure.

Ashlee [00:27:25]:
Yeah. A %. And I just think that's important to tap into. Right?

Jennifer [00:27:29]:
No. I mean, I think that yeah. Like, you're gonna blow something up here. I think you're just a truth teller, Ashlee, which is I think why it's so great that we're having these conversations to say, hey. This does happen. You know? There are these dynamics that are showing up, and that's impactful to a family. Right? That's impactful

Ashlee [00:27:49]:
I see.

Jennifer [00:27:49]:
To kids or first responders. And so if we're gonna pretend that that's not happening, then that's not us really showing up completely to this community. So I think it's good that you're saying that.

Ashlee [00:28:01]:
Yeah. I do think that there is so much truth to that. Everything right? And we talk about this, but it's beyond that. Like, everything that happens to our first responder, it does impact the family. Mhmm.

Jennifer [00:28:13]:
Which is why

Ashlee [00:28:14]:
I even have it down here that I hope one day to make to fruition this course for therapists to take to work with first responders is a whole section on families. Right? You

Jennifer [00:28:24]:
know, I think that's a powerful thing because, I mean, I've been to I've been to good and bad presentations in this field for a long time now. You got to the ones that are just kinda glossing over, just trying to put first responders in boxes, really, and so the, like, the depth of that. Right? What are what's a value system? You know? Where's integrity? Where you know, are these deeper things when you are meeting with somebody who happens to have the profession of first responding. And so I think it's really powerful to know when that class and course is available that will offer kinda all those layers.

Ashlee [00:29:04]:
You're coming in on it with me. Right?

Jennifer [00:29:06]:
Yes. Yeah. So far everybody.

Ashlee [00:29:08]:
Let me put her on let me put her on the spot right now. She can't say no. Because I'm staring at this. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. But, right, because we run into this we run into this way too much of we don't have enough therapists to help our first responders. We have all these therapists in the world that maybe maybe they don't want to. Hey.

Ashlee [00:29:28]:
I respect that. I'm not saying you have to.

Jennifer [00:29:30]:
Yeah. That's a good therapist that says this isn't for me. Like, you

Ashlee [00:29:33]:
you know? Not for everybody. But I feel like as a therapist, what can I do to make this better, to make this community bigger? And and that's the only way I can think is to educate. Right? Mhmm. But I also wanna turn this question to you as we try to kind of I know we're rogue a little bit again this episode, but I love it. If we have first responders listening, which I hope we do at this point.

Jennifer [00:29:57]:
Yeah. Me too.

Ashlee [00:29:58]:
Thanks, dad. No. Like our dads. So if there's a first responder listening, one, include your families in therapy. I think that's beautiful as well. But what would you say to them in terms of, like, just kinda bringing it back in? What would be important? How to what should they look for in a therapist? Like you said, I guess, just creating the safe space, interrogating them. Is there anything else that you could think of to be like, hey. This might be helpful?

Jennifer [00:30:29]:
For for first responders that are going to therapy? Like, what would they

Ashlee [00:30:34]:
work? Where they want to.

Jennifer [00:30:35]:
Yeah. I think a seasoned therapist is good, especially if this is your first time into therapy. You know, there's a a lot of opportunities sometime who people are fresh out of school, and and thank goodness because I was one of those people at one time. But I think sometimes when you're dealing with, you know, what we're talking about here, Ashlee, when you're having to see some really gruesome stuff that that mainstream, you know, people aren't having to deal with, you you do need somebody that's seasoned. So I would recommend that. The other thing I think this is silly, but it's so true. You gotta have somebody that's willing to work with your schedule. I cannot.

Jennifer [00:31:16]:
But these therapists that have banking hours, I mean, what I would give to work, you know, ten to two, Monday through Thursday. I I know that's kind of a silly one, but I think it's true. I mean, it it's amazing to me how hard sometimes it is just scheduling. And sometimes I mean, Ashlee, you know this. Like, you're full. Like, you know, I just don't there's not another day of the week that I could schedule people. I mean, there's those things that you come up against. But you guys have crazy enough schedules as it is.

Jennifer [00:31:50]:
Like, try to find somebody that's willing to work with your schedule. So, again, seasoned, somebody that's flexible with your schedule. And, also, again, like, what are you looking for? Are you needing somebody that's just really validating you and supporting you and just being a place to, like, unload? Are you needing somebody that, you know, is gonna call you on stuff. Like, I mean, there's those kind of therapists. Like, it's, you know, it's kind of a mix of what that could look like. I think a good therapist is somebody that can balance both of those that can hold you accountable at times, but also just offer validation and no judgment. Like, it's not we're not doing rocket science here. Like Right.

Jennifer [00:32:39]:
There are some things in that that are just simple. And, again, trust your gut. If it feels like a good fit, it is. If it doesn't feel like a good fit, that's okay. And you can ask your therapist for another therapist. Like, you can. True. Yeah.

Jennifer [00:32:55]:
Totally can. It might be a little awkward, but that's a good tell if it's a good therapist or not. Because trust me, I have sent many a client to somebody that was a better fit for them because it's not about me. It's not about me as all. It's about what's best for that.

Ashlee [00:33:13]:
You know, it's funny you say that because just recently too, like, me and another clinician who are she's also she's one of my only other clinicians up here. It's like me and her, like, go back and forth with first responders with clients and stuff. But we were giggling the other day to each other because I referred a first responder back to her because I'm too young. He doesn't like the fact that I'm as old as his kid. Yes. Right? Like, it can be as simple as that. I can't control my age. Like, I cannot, and I understand that.

Ashlee [00:33:45]:
But he was just like, you know, it's hard for me. You and and I I think I only saw him once because I blocked him. Like, he was just just really young. Like, that is fine. You know? But it could be as simple as, like, I didn't take that personal. I get that. It's not always easy probably taking advice from someone who is younger than you. Right? Like so it's just, like, can be those little things, but you're right.

Ashlee [00:34:07]:
Like, I made sure he got to the right therapist.

Jennifer [00:34:10]:
Yeah. And you can just honor that. Like, again, a good therapist can just honor that and say, like, it's not about me. What is the other oh, if you've seen a therapist, you can always go back and see that therapist again. Like, I have that happen all the time where I'm working with somebody that gets so much better. Things are great. I don't hear from them. And, you know, sometimes two, three, five.

Jennifer [00:34:35]:
I haven't had ten years yet, but, you know, a long time can go by, and they'll reach back up, and we just pick back up. Like, it's not that's a good fit. That's a good fit. So, yeah, those are all. And then, you know, obviously, insurance use your insurance. But, also, sometimes there's therapists, and they can give first responder discounts. I know that's a thing out there too. So

Ashlee [00:34:59]:
Yeah. That can get figured out. I always say never let that stop you really. Right? Like, I understand why it's really Yeah. But it's gonna be a factor if it's if we're talking about someone's life. Right? Like

Jennifer [00:35:09]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:35:10]:
We won't be able to cover it in this episode, but we do I do wanna get into, like, one of these times interventions a little bit more too. Right? Because I think the stigma of going to therapy is that these first responders come in and lay on my couch, and I ask them how they feel every five minutes about Yeah. Yeah. And, like, woah. We are way past that, my friends. So we'll have to spend some time on that in another episode as well because we can break that stigma pretty quickly on here.

Jennifer [00:35:38]:
That's a good point. Yeah. That it's not just talk about your feelings. That's not just what we're here for. So, yeah, that's good. Oh, and let me tell you, you'll get to a place where you I remember being the young therapist and people being like, I don't know. She's so young. And then the day I realized, like, oh, I'm not young anymore.

Jennifer [00:36:00]:
That's not an issue for my clients. You'll get there one day.

Ashlee [00:36:04]:
I'm creeping up on it. Trust me. Trust I have to be I had a client tell me, not that I need to throw around age in here, but I did have a client tell me the other day. He was like, oh, I I thought you were 38. And I was like, oof. Alright. Like

Jennifer [00:36:20]:
How dare you?

Ashlee [00:36:21]:
Thanks. How dare you? Thanks. You know? Like, in my head, I'm like, ouch. Okay. Like, not that 38 is old, but, like, k. I'm not I'm not quite. But

Jennifer [00:36:31]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:36:31]:
I gotta start

Jennifer [00:36:33]:
with that. You know how they say kids say the the darndest things? No. Clients say the darndest.

Ashlee [00:36:40]:
A %, and it's definitely always my first responder. Then I'm like, oh, this is why I love you guys so much.

Jennifer [00:36:48]:
Like Well, the only reason that would ever be said is not by anything about you how you look. You look, like, so young, but it is your wisdom, Ashlee. You have a you have a lot of wisdom past your years in a lot of ways. So

Ashlee [00:37:01]:
so appreciate that. That was so kind. Well, I learned from the best such as yourself and those around me, so that's all I can keep doing is learning from you guys. But, I mean, we've covered a lot of ground today.

Jennifer [00:37:12]:
We have. I'm like, oh gosh. I just looked at the clock, so I guess we should give these people a break.

Ashlee [00:37:17]:
I know. That's why I was like, oh, boy. I should not bring up interventions, but we are gonna talk about that. We do bring back I know I don't know. Sometimes it's just so nice for Jennifer and I to keep going with our thoughts, but we do bring back some guests coming up, some really, really cool ones. So keep keep looking out.

Jennifer [00:37:35]:
Yeah. We have some fun guests showing up, and we're appreciate your time today.

Ashlee [00:37:41]:
Absolutely. Don't forget, guys, that when the call hits home, Jennifer and I are always here for you, and we look forward to our next episode.

Jennifer [00:37:48]:
Have a good one.