Breaking the Silence on Police Mental Health, Leadership, and Family Resilience

Jennifer [00:00:06]:
Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Saylor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop, and this is the podcast when the call hits home.

Ashlee [00:00:14]:
Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer.

Ashlee [00:00:22]:
Hi. Welcome back to the pod. I'm Jennifer.

Ashlee [00:00:25]:
And I'm Ashlee. And today, we have a pretty big guest. We're super excited. We're gonna hand it over to him to introduce himself. So go ahead, Tom. Take it away.

Tom Rizzo [00:00:33]:
So hi. My name is Tom Rizzo. So honored and so blessed to be here today with you guys, spending some time with you. I appreciate the invite. I've done a thing or two in the arena of what we're gonna discuss. So, yeah, you know, I'm in my twenty fourth year of my career in law enforcement. Took a couple of diversions off the tracks. I wrote a book, you know, traveled the country, being a motivational speaker in the area of, leadership, mental health, wellness, resiliency, and kind of everything that falls within it.

Tom Rizzo [00:01:05]:
And, super fortunate that, little over a year ago, I was fortunate enough to get the opportunity to be considered as a cohost on the show, All Patrol Live. It's the relaunch of live PD. So I've been doing that. College professor for God knows, what, thirteen, fourteen years. And, but the proudest thing that I have is my background is I'm a father of four. So, those are my the my four monkeys. Those are my why. And, so yeah.

Tom Rizzo [00:01:33]:
Let that that's that's my Reader's Digest version about me.

Ashlee [00:01:37]:
And I feel like I have to say thank you to you again because I I feel like our listeners need to know. So I was literally at home one day. My dad is a retired officer as a lot of us know now, but he loves the show on patrol. He loves it. And we were sitting there watching it, and we were like, who? Who's Tom Rizzo? Like, he's new, you know, sticks the gun, like, all these things. And I was like, I'm gonna reach out to him. And my dad was like, it's not like you're not. And I go, yes.

Ashlee [00:02:00]:
I am. Yeah. I am. And so I did, and just so thankful that you were able to respond, and you've been so kind to me and willing to do all these things. So I greatly appreciate you so much.

Tom Rizzo [00:02:11]:
No. The the pleasure is mine, and and I always try to be as responsive as I can, to people who reach out. I've made that pledge before I was doing the show, you know, and being an instructor and a speaker that if you if you're gonna offer people help, you have to make yourself readily available to give that help. So I try to be as responsive as I can. It's difficult, because I wanna always place my four children first, so I don't wanna be distracted on my time with them. But I believe very much so that, you know, responsiveness is the key in the arena of being supportive of each other. I'm just a product of my environment and the blessings that have been given to me just trying to pay them forward. So thank you for that.

Ashlee [00:02:51]:
Well, that's beautiful, and I appreciate that, especially the ability to know if you gotta put your money where your mouth is. Like, if you're gonna say this is what we wanna support, you wanna do that. In this little brief synopsis she gave us about, it sounds like a very mosaic of career, what would you say kinda leads to using that word mental health and mental health services, especially for officers?

Tom Rizzo [00:03:16]:
Very candidly. I'm just I believe in share a lesson learned should be a lesson shared. Like, you know, and what Maya Angelou said once, when you learn, you teach. When you get, you give. And I I guess I don't mind ruffling feathers. I've always been the type to be respectfully insubordinate, and I believe you could be both at the same time. So I challenge our own. I preach, this theory that I came up with where where I always say we obsess over the four corners.

Tom Rizzo [00:03:51]:
So that would be the four corners of your district, your jurisdiction, your industry even. Mhmm. And we make sure that that looks shiny and clean and neat and plausible to the stakeholders in the community and the and the politicians. But the four what's happening within the four walls is chaos and turmoil and toxicity and vitriol and invective. So I've challenged the system to say, how about we obsess over what's happening within our four walls, sometimes the four four walls of our own heads, meaning our brains, and how we're treating each other. And I firmly believe that there's then a reciprocity effect on the customer service that we put out there. I think that we've been operating in this field of a Jekyll Hyde syndrome for far too long. You know, we have to be polite and courteous and respectful and empathetic toward perfect strangers, then we get into the hallways of our building, and we're throwing sticks in each other's path.

Tom Rizzo [00:04:53]:
And we can't wait with the knife around the corner. Yeah. But then, you know, to people like you guys who are out there actually caring for us, we're not giving you the honest scoop as to what's really plaguing us.

Ashlee [00:05:09]:
Oh, man. That just hit so hard because I just just recently, I had someone who's higher up come up to me and be like, you're I hear you on your podcast, and and he's amazing, honestly. And he's like, I hear you on your podcast, and I hear you talking kind of, like, poorly about admin and stuff. And I said, no. I'm just talking truths. Like, I'm trying to express these things, and I think that's why you're so inspiring to me because I'm like and he is too. This gentleman that I'm talking about, he is too because he's on this path of trying to figure it out himself as well. Like, how do I play this big role in my department but make change? And so, like, I think that's super powerful because I was like, no.

Ashlee [00:05:45]:
I promise you. Like, I'm just trying to be honest on this show, and and this is what I hear all the time. This is what we hear all the time from the people that come see us and get help. So I guess my question for you is, like, how did that transpire for you, or how do you how do you kinda manage that now within your department?

Tom Rizzo [00:06:02]:
Well and, again, I'm trying not to get emotional about this because I was gifted everything. Nothing you you know what's funny about me? Not comedic, ironic. I I was the youngest to ever be promoted to sergeant. I write about this in my book overnight of over $40,000 raise. Who wouldn't that be a game changer for? I got the patch I wanted. I got the raise. Now I got the money. I got the I didn't even make it a month before I was back to woe is me.

Tom Rizzo [00:06:30]:
And why? My environment. You know, everything so I say this very, very, very candidly. I'm not John Wayne. I'm not the, you know, this police officer that's, you know, breaking all the records. What I say is, but I have experienced just about I mean, we don't ever say all in my line of work because there's always tomorrow is a new day. Right?

Ashlee [00:06:53]:
Yeah. Right.

Tom Rizzo [00:06:54]:
I've experienced as close as you can to every letter in the almanac of this gig in the twenty four years I've been doing it. And I will tell you, nothing comes even close, not even a microcosm of the stress and the anxiety and the strife that I've experienced as to to the right and to the left, to the top and to the bottom of the people I work with. Mhmm. So so I can and and and politicians and legislators. Like, so what's funny to me, again, not comedic, is that the overwhelming majority of the public are good. The overwhelming majority of mental health professionals want to help us. But what does everybody focus on? Oh my god. It's so dangerous what they do in the streets.

Tom Rizzo [00:07:41]:
Oh my goodness. They saw a dead body. So let let me hurry up in there and give them a crisis debrief. How about you just tell my boss to just treat me like a human being? That would offer me so much more help. You know, I saw I saw this, press conference with a foreign basketball team in a in in, like, a a national tournament, a semifinal game, and he sent one of his key players home and gave him leave because he was having a child. And and the reporter said, but you never you don't let people take leaves, not during this time. This is for the championship. The guy turns around and he says, the championship.

Tom Rizzo [00:08:20]:
He says, do you have any children, young man? And the guy says, no. He goes, well, then you'll understand exactly why I did what I did. He goes, playing basketball? This is the coach. He's He's not worried about risking his job. He's not worried about, you know, the likes. He's not worrying about the acceptance from his peers. You know what he's doing? He knows by investing that little bit of connection in one of his key players, it will metastasize in the buy in he gets from the rest of the team as to you see me more than just what it is I could do for you on the court. So put that into my wheelhouse.

Tom Rizzo [00:08:57]:
If you give me just a little bit and you see me hurt, you see me stressed, you see me experiencing birth of a child, a marriage, an intimate birthday anniversary, the death of a loved one, a divorce, buying a home. I could go on and on and on. And you made me feel as if you truly care because you can relate to that. Man, I'll give you 10 times the energy back as an employee.

Ashlee [00:09:26]:
Yeah. So why is this happening? I mean, sorry. But

Ashlee [00:09:32]:
Great question.

Ashlee [00:09:33]:
Why is it that we or what we're hearing is that we eat our own? I mean, why is that what's happening sometimes in agencies?

Tom Rizzo [00:09:44]:
Because I think that we've allowed our missions to be hijacked.

Ashlee [00:09:48]:
Okay.

Tom Rizzo [00:09:49]:
And when you allow you know, you can go into the overwhelming majority of buildings, public safety agency related buildings, first responder related buildings, and you could see a mission statement that's normally in a plaque on a wall. You could then go and stop those people who belong to that organization in an alley and say, what's the mission of this organization? And they won't know.

Ashlee [00:10:10]:
Mhmm.

Tom Rizzo [00:10:10]:
And why won't they know? Because, again, those missions were hijacked by political patronage, by some type of checkbox, by some type of pandering to a peanut gallery. I've said this since jump. I believe evolution of our industry is a must. I'm a huge advocate of reformations when we've revealed a flaw. What I find very ironic is we ignore the fatal flaws that we have that have led to attrition, that have led to such mental health issues. You talk about you tell me in the advent of accreditation, advanced technology, resiliency programs, why are suicide rates at an all time high? Mhmm. Why? And and I'll and it's a rhetorical question, Jen. And the reason why I'm saying this is because when I go to these symposiums, I see people sitting there congratulating each other all day on the next golf outing that they're going

Ashlee [00:11:10]:
to

Tom Rizzo [00:11:12]:
or or what FBI National Academy session that they graduated from.

Ashlee [00:11:16]:
Right.

Tom Rizzo [00:11:17]:
And now now listen. I gotta be careful because I've had stoned on me for this. I'm not coming at you as if I'm some type of jealous crybaby. I was offered to go to that FBI school four times. I declined four invites because I had young children. So it's not that I was never worthy. I matter of of fact, I've taught for their alumni association seminar. So I often laugh because I'm good enough to go teach for these things.

Tom Rizzo [00:11:44]:
But I often say to them, if this is the epitome of schools, right, and and the elite of the elite, why is it that we continue to perpetually have these problems then? And I often tease because they're they're friends to me, these men and women. I said, did they teach you that at the FBI school? I see the way you're behaving. Did they teach you that? And now let me be fair. Here's my asterisk. I think the leaders of public safety organizations have also been abandoned. The leaders of the organizations don't have channels that they can then go to and say, hey, guys and girls. I'm frustrated. I'm being screwed with by politicians.

Tom Rizzo [00:12:26]:
I'm being hamstrung by some type of, you know, nonprofit group, some type of anti opposition group. What would you like me to do? Like, they don't know how to ask for help.

Ashlee [00:12:40]:
Right.

Tom Rizzo [00:12:41]:
But then here it is again. Here in New Jersey, there's a there's a program for chiefs of police, like a peer group thing.

Ashlee [00:12:47]:
Mhmm.

Tom Rizzo [00:12:48]:
What if I told you I volunteered for free to help with it? And you know what I was told? Well, sorry. You have to be a chief.

Ashlee [00:12:55]:
Oh my gosh. Gosh.

Tom Rizzo [00:12:56]:
Okay. I don't wanna hear. Here it is. Guess what? Flush the toilet on me. I promise you. There is nobody in this planet that's gonna be able to say something about me that I haven't done 10 times worse about myself. I don't get offended. Go go ahead.

Tom Rizzo [00:13:13]:
Flush the toilet on me, but then at least what if I gave you a guy or a girl who's fantastic? But what? You're gonna discount them because they don't wear a star? That's the type of crap I'm talking about. Right.

Ashlee [00:13:26]:
What a great example too. So I'm sitting here, and I'm like, of course, my brain's going a hundred. And, Jennifer, I kind of braced you for this. I'm like, he's so powerful that you you can only you take it in, and you're like, how do I where do I go with this? Right?

Ashlee [00:13:38]:
That was such a blunt question too, so I appreciate it, Tom. Oh, well, that's true.

Tom Rizzo [00:13:44]:
As Ashlee said, I got I should you know, I didn't preface it. I apologize in advance. I get passionate about this because I openly share

Ashlee [00:13:52]:
to apologize about that.

Tom Rizzo [00:13:53]:
Well, no. It it ruined the most sacred relationships that I've had. I allowed it. I was on the verge. The only reason why I'm still even, you know, here breathing air is because of my four children, and I openly share my story on the battles I've had with mental health and depression. I lost both my best friends at 14 to suicide on the same day. I lost a work colleague to suicide by cop by his own department. So it's real to me, but I openly admit that I'm no better than anybody.

Tom Rizzo [00:14:24]:
But, man, I'll give you the shirt off my back, and I'll give you the last ounce of energy that I had in hopes that I don't need an award. I don't need an accolade. I don't need a raise. I'm just praying that people would wake the hell up and just start doing the common basic principles that will certainly improve this environment.

Ashlee [00:14:41]:
Yeah.

Tom Rizzo [00:14:42]:
I've been to 46 states in this country, and I have seen men and women who are operating with the most minuscule budgets get this perfectly fine, that the men and women that then work in that agency can't wait to get to work. So you can't tell me what I'm spitting isn't real. It's not I'm not trying to sell somebody on the on the, you know, the veracity of the Easter bunny tale. This is real. Right. But everybody wants to discount it. But then Chicago won't even let me come there even for nothing to give men and women, you know, some type of something to restore their faith because they believe in check they believe in checkbox.

Ashlee [00:15:23]:
Talk about a place that needs it the most right now. I see

Tom Rizzo [00:15:25]:
Talk about a place that needs it, but these are places that refuse to do it.

Ashlee [00:15:28]:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I can't I can't even wrap my head around that. I mean, we I just can't. I I mess so my uncle works for Chicago. Like, he's out of Chicago, and I message him all the time. And I'm like, what are we what are we doing? You know? And I've talked to a few people to try to help, but you don't get much back.

Ashlee [00:15:45]:
Like, you just don't. And My

Tom Rizzo [00:15:48]:
request my request went unanswered.

Ashlee [00:15:50]:
I can't I can't even find because

Tom Rizzo [00:15:52]:
I go to because you know me, actually. I go to every hot spot that there is. Yeah. You name a hot spot that has made mainstream news over the past five years Yeah. Because of a salacious event, I go. And the reason why I go is because I see the pump is prime for what? The restoration of faith.

Ashlee [00:16:09]:
Mhmm.

Tom Rizzo [00:16:09]:
I won't tell you who to call God. I don't do that. I won't tell you who to vote for and for political office. I don't do that. What I do is openly admit through my own trials and tribulations, this is what allowed me to be where I am now and that I didn't let the dark win.

Ashlee [00:16:26]:
Yeah.

Tom Rizzo [00:16:26]:
Try.

Ashlee [00:16:27]:
Absolutely. And so can I ask on here for for something that I see a lot? And, Jennifer, I don't know if you agree with this is that so I don't so one of my newer roles in life is helping people start peer support teams and things like

Tom Rizzo [00:16:40]:
that. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:16:41]:
Something that I run into a lot is this mistrust with higher ups. And I'm telling you, like, besides continuing to push forward and try to prove it, sometimes I even get stuck still. I'm like, how do we how do we earn that trust? How do they start to earn that trust within the department? Do you have any feedback on that?

Tom Rizzo [00:17:01]:
Yeah. You got so let me say this to you, and it's not to patronize you. You guys are coveted by us. Mhmm. What the where the barrier and the obstacle will continue to and persist and and and present itself is when we feel you guys are not being fed the honest truth, excuse me, from the administrations of the departments.

Ashlee [00:17:24]:
Mhmm.

Tom Rizzo [00:17:25]:
So what'll happen let me give you an example. Hypothetically speaking, you'll have an agency that I went to an agency that I won't name out of respect for the men and women that they had two suicides of, police officers in their organization within a six month period too. So I go out there and they said, well, yeah, we even have, you know, we have a mental health program, and we have therapists that come in. And so the stigma, you know, not wanting to talk to another cop, that's why we do it this way, blah blah blah blah blah. They give me the whole spiel. When I had you know, we let our hair down. This is the night before I'm set to speak, and and I'm just involved in some candid conversations. You know, the overwhelming majority of the mental health deterioration was linked to the way that they're being treated on the day in, day out.

Tom Rizzo [00:18:14]:
When I presented this to the I so then I met with the mental health folks, and I said, okay. What's the admin telling you? They said, oh, you know, they're stressed out because of the violence that's out there, the risk of being ambushed. And they did what? What's on mainstream news? The the risks of being a police officer. Oh, they think about the crash that they saw or the dead baby, and here's me. That's really what's causing your people. Okay. Who does it sound like that they're not gonna have the audacity to point the finger at? Themselves?

Ashlee [00:18:49]:
Right.

Tom Rizzo [00:18:50]:
The programs I've seen work is when the administrations can tell people like you in a trust relationship, I need you because I am not doing what I should be doing, not because I'm a bad person.

Ashlee [00:19:04]:
Right.

Tom Rizzo [00:19:05]:
Nobody ever showed me.

Ashlee [00:19:07]:
Oh my goodness. Yes.

Tom Rizzo [00:19:08]:
I know how to I know how to care for a dog at home. I I don't know how to care for, you know, this new generation of police officers. I don't know what I should be doing when a guy or a girl gets divorced. I don't know what I should be doing when a guy and a girl, you know, gets I know these things called life stress, but all I know is my budget says manpower, and my budget says overtime, and my budget says

Ashlee [00:19:36]:
Whew.

Tom Rizzo [00:19:38]:
Every state, Ashlee, has an internal affairs mechanism for discipline. Right? Every one of them. You know what? Every one of them also has a gray that allows for boo boos. You see, the policy manual is this big. I will take a written test against or an oral test against any police officer in this country. Give me the same time to study as he or she, and I will test against any one of them. Why? Because I'm smart? No. Because I can memorize and regurgitate information.

Tom Rizzo [00:20:11]:
Guess what's in those manuals? And every one of them with a deviation from state to state, of course, is gray for boo boos. But you know what we do here? We say, You if your tie bar is crooked and keep doing this and this and this, and then we sit there and then say, hey. Why aren't you out there killing it? Man, are you kidding me? I'm scared to death to sneeze and cough at the same time.

Ashlee [00:20:41]:
I was in a situation where there was some open dialogue, and somebody was being very brave and sharing kind of their own dark thoughts and maybe having a thought of wanting to arm themselves in the past. Yeah. And the people that were in charge shut that down so quickly.

Tom Rizzo [00:21:03]:
Of course.

Ashlee [00:21:03]:
And I was like, no. No. No. No. People being honest, like, if somebody is sharing, the risk for hurting themselves goes down. Like, this is a healthy thing, and what you're saying just reinforces that. Right? It's just this black and white. I'm gonna be sued.

Ashlee [00:21:20]:
I can't have them even speak those words in a safe, healthy place. I'm so worried about covering my ass that I'm not concerned about the safety of this person. And that person was fine. They got the help they need. They're doing so much better. But it it was just like the knee jerk reaction to that was so disappointing, especially, again, like, you guys are having us come to the table. Like, this is great. Some of it, I think I had some compassion of just, like, maybe them not knowing enough about, you know, mental health and things like that that, like, speaking freely, being honest is so powerful.

Ashlee [00:22:04]:
But I think you're right. It's about being sued. It's about your tie clip. It's about how shiny your shoes are and maybe not about who you are as a person at times and what your needs are appropriately, obviously.

Tom Rizzo [00:22:18]:
But it's because it's not sexy. Right? That topic's not that topic the the topic of treating people well isn't sexy. Oh. What's sexy is

Ashlee [00:22:27]:
Not at all.

Tom Rizzo [00:22:28]:
What's sexy is look at the drone we got. Look at the look at the new look at the new, you know, tac PackPack, you know, unit we put together. Look at look at, you know, the car look at the graphic on the car. Look at the you know? But then the irony is where the warm and fuzzy comes into play and makes sexy, oh, look. We went into this, you know, this, area, this low this, this high crime area, and we did a TikTok dance, and we gave them, you know, teddy bears. The people in that development never asked the police to be there and doing that. Right? No. But this is what we do for what? To show everybody some type of false narrative.

Tom Rizzo [00:23:03]:
Oh, look. We're so sweet. And then you could ask the men and women. Okay. Cool. What's it like when you go back to the building? Is it sweet there too? They don't give they don't give a shit about you. So what I'm saying so the reason why I share this is we shouldn't know all about mental health because that's what you guys went to school for, and that's what you guys are your profession is. What I should know is I learned when I was about four years old how to treat somebody.

Tom Rizzo [00:23:29]:
I learned when I was about four years old right and wrong. I learned manners.

Ashlee [00:23:35]:
Yeah.

Tom Rizzo [00:23:35]:
I learned that hold the door for somebody. I learned that if somebody looks like they're sad, you say, hey. Are you okay? What's wrong? That's okay. I don't why isn't that being practiced or preached?

Ashlee [00:23:47]:
Mhmm.

Tom Rizzo [00:23:48]:
But you'd better believe it. And guess where we are supposed to know about mental health, though, Jen? If we have to go deal with an emotionally disturbed person, we better know all about what that person is is suffering from. And heaven forbid, if we make a mistake with that

Ashlee [00:24:02]:
Right. You're supposed to be next person there. Mhmm.

Tom Rizzo [00:24:04]:
But the next officer suicide that I could give you that had 11 warning signs that you ignored, what do we do? We just chalk that up. We do some type of fancy, Facebook post, and and we show the widow and the flag and the what? End of watch. Thank you very much. Okay. Appreciate it. I could tell you right now, the lowest point in my life and my career, it was just more out of me. Hey. I need you to do this.

Tom Rizzo [00:24:34]:
I need you to do that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, don't focus on that. You know? Stay busy here. Don't take your mind off of that stuff. Great. Thank you.

Ashlee [00:24:44]:
I'm just, like, reeling in this because it's so true, and it's what I get. Right? Like, it's literally what I see time and time again in my office and something that's super hard on I don't Jenna, I don't know if you agree with this, but, like, on our end is this feeling of I can't do enough because I don't have any control of it.

Ashlee [00:25:01]:
I agree with that. And I think it's really hard, the people that come into my office, that it is about, you know, their boss or their boss's boss. And and they're so committed to their community. They're so committed to the job, to the career, and betrayal is such a dirty word and how much of it I hear in my office. And and I think it's such a deep level because, you know, in some scenarios, these people are their friends. You know? Like, that there's this fraternity and this family and to feel so betrayed by somebody that you trusted so much, it really leaves, several people I know I've worked with so isolated.

Tom Rizzo [00:25:50]:
Well, I And I but I tell you this. I I'm very open about them, and it's part of my presentation that I do wanna say. We talk about, like, brother and blue. It's more like twisted sister. And then I'll and then and I say thin blue line, it's more like a thick blurred line. Because when the system that's been created, all that system teaches and preaches and practices is, hey. Hit the person to the right of you or to the left of you in the kneecap to get ahead. Don't worry about it.

Tom Rizzo [00:26:16]:
Do what you gotta do. That's gonna sit there and continue to persist. My challenge for you guys is is if you can't get candor from the administrative staff that's looking to bring you on, just expect that you're not gonna have the efficacy of your efforts, you know, come through. Now I'm not saying to never offer your services. But I'm saying, like, with me, that's where I will change and tweak what it is I do. If I see that the things I'm I'm spitting, I know is gonna hit a brick wall when they have to go back to work, I then refocus it on individual behaviors in the personal life that I know the organization can't control.

Ashlee [00:26:58]:
You

Tom Rizzo [00:26:58]:
see? And that's what I share. I falsely believe the organization controlled both sides of me, and I made that mistake. I have nobody to blame what myself for that. And I and I firmly believe in the quote. Just don't ask the questions that you don't want the answers to. So I never asked my then wife as to, hey. You know, you see you see person a or person b, same rank, that's calling out sick, going fishing, and blowing off work, and COVID happened. They're they're they're staying home.

Tom Rizzo [00:27:31]:
They're taking care of stuff. Do you want me to do that, or do you see me, man? If I continue to sprint, it's gonna lead to more for me and us and more, you know, wealth and more, you know, opportunity. And, you know, I never asked. I just told my loved ones this is gonna work out. So I think it would be wise for you if you see an administration that's going to oppose your genuine efforts as to restore resilience and be there for a mental health advocacy program. If you know that they're not gonna be honest in what it is that they're doing, I would then refocus it on individuals. Mhmm. I would also, you know, allow give them the outlet.

Tom Rizzo [00:28:12]:
Say, listen. I would never make you, you know, chief or sheriff, whoever. I'll never make you look like a buffoon. Your your popularity, your support, your reputation will magnify if you came out open and honest and said, I genuinely care. I just don't know how to be good at this. People will adore you if you could walk in and say, I know my patches, my pins, my ranks, my ribbons says I should be the tip of the spear and know all be all. I don't. Can you guys kinda help me help you? They'll they'll carry a guy or a girl like that on a damn red freaking carpet.

Ashlee [00:28:57]:
Yeah.

Tom Rizzo [00:28:58]:
But they're so scared to admit that. Admit that the pressure that you're getting from mayors and and city commissioners and these politicians. Oh, man. It makes me puke in my mouth.

Ashlee [00:29:11]:
And and so bad. They are

Ashlee [00:29:13]:
so bad.

Tom Rizzo [00:29:13]:
But but that's real pressure that these administrations are being put under, but they're so scared. I've met these men and women. They're so scared to admit to their troops. Like, look, man. I don't agree with what they're doing, but what this is what I gotta let you guys in on this. If I buck back, you could forget the new fleet of cars. So now here, let's make a decision together. You guys want me to go go hands on? I will, but we're gonna we're gonna suffer, though.

Tom Rizzo [00:29:40]:
So you see what I'm saying? Now I I know they gotta be careful. Right? Because they don't wanna get him back. They're bashing the mayor and all this stuff. I I'm a big fact person. Just be matter of fact. Yeah. Listen. You guys were griping that you want new cars.

Tom Rizzo [00:29:54]:
I could get them for us, but it's gonna mean we're gonna have to wear these pink cowboy hats for three days. It's not my idea, but help me help you.

Ashlee [00:30:04]:
Right. Right. And you bring up a really great point in terms of family. Right? And that's something that we stress very much so on this show. That's why we started it is because we're both children of first responders, police specifically. And we do wanna talk to you a little bit about that and what that looks like for you and how you prioritize your family now that you are so busy in life. Like, you have all these amazing things going, but I know one thing's for sure, you never hesitate to put your kids first. And I see that everywhere, and we love that about you.

Ashlee [00:30:34]:
Like, we me and Jennifer have talked about that and just how we admire that about you. So what does that look like for you, and how do you prioritize your family?

Tom Rizzo [00:30:42]:
I don't say it. I do it.

Ashlee [00:30:45]:
Yeah.

Tom Rizzo [00:30:45]:
So, yes, I'm very open. And, you know, and I say I I'll tell my children, like, yeah. Dad's a little tired. You know? So I may not be as as boisterous or as bouncy as I but give me a little bit. Let me get some black coffee up in me. I make them know that they matter that much, and they did not ask to be brought into this world. I did that. I almost take offense, and you know what I mean by this, not literally.

Tom Rizzo [00:31:12]:
I almost take offense when people compliment me for the amount of interaction that I have with my children because I look at them cross eyed. Especially, this isn't a lot of the times geared toward fathers, and I'm always like, what the hell am I supposed to do? Like, why what that should be normal. I adore those four human beings, and they're so different, but they have all of me. So now the different but but this is what let me tell you. I was baptized by fire because there was a point in my life where, you know, here I am spending time with the kids. Oh, baby. Hold on one second. Now what does it look like? I'll never be rude.

Tom Rizzo [00:31:54]:
I told you responsiveness is what I want on my epitaph. But what I'll do now, the new version of me, baby, hold on one second. And in front of them, oh, hey, Ashlee. How are you doing? Is there a good time I can call you back? I'm spending time with my daughter. I do that on purpose. So what I and then when I hang up, you know what they do? Daddy, who is that? Oh, hey, babe. That was an opportunity for me that I could do something really cool. But what you were telling me about, you know, this project that you're putting together for history is so much more interesting than me.

Tom Rizzo [00:32:29]:
Then what I'll do is I then confront them like business partners. Hey. Listen. Dad has this opportunity. You know? This is what it's going to mean. Okay? It's gonna cost in terms of time, but it'll be really neat. I could take you with me to Boston. We could go see some.

Tom Rizzo [00:32:46]:
You know? So I I I include them. And you know what's so refreshing, Ashlee, when they see you advocate for them that way? My son, he makes the varsity baseball team, and he gets limited playing times. He's a young buck. So he'll turn around to me. He says, dad, I'm sorry. You know? I know you're working and going crazy, and you came all the way here. I didn't even hardly play. And I scolded him.

Tom Rizzo [00:33:11]:
I said, what is it that we do for each other? We're there for each other, and you support people and when they're being celebrated and when they're not. That's the definition of support. And I know you'll do that for me, so I'm doing the same thing back. It's a pleasure to be here. And to watch your butt even sit in the bench is something that for me, I feel like that's a bondable moment. But I include them that way. I include them because I want them to see that. And then I I tell everybody this.

Tom Rizzo [00:33:42]:
When I check-in for work, you get a 10% out of me. But you'll get that if you allow me to be present for the people that really matter. Right.

Ashlee [00:33:52]:
That is beautiful. And I'm gonna steal that CEO family business because I do think that that's how families can really operate. We all have a role in this business, and why don't we share the load? And that comes in with our time as well. I think that's awesome. Also, when you do that

Tom Rizzo [00:34:08]:
Think about it. Right? It's cool when you include them and they say because that's you know what? And I say this openly, honestly. Maybe maybe my marriage would still be intact if I had that mentality years ago where I said, hey. Listen. Got the opportunity to go for this promotion. Right? And and you literally write it down like you would like a contract. Right? This is what it's gonna mean in salary. This is what the schedule looks like.

Tom Rizzo [00:34:32]:
This is what it could mean down the road. This is what it means for my pension. This is what's gonna be required of me. Now let's make a decision. But you know what Tom did, Jen? Well, trust me. I'll kill the test, and I'll come out number one. And and and and this is what I'm gonna do, and I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it.

Tom Rizzo [00:34:50]:
I'm a and then and then what? Then I get it, and I'm still sitting there being pissy and moaning about what sucks and what's not great. And then you get your loved one and go like this. I thought you said the grass was greener, babe.

Ashlee [00:35:03]:
Right.

Tom Rizzo [00:35:04]:
And then and then and then we get frustrated when, what, our families don't love what we do.

Ashlee [00:35:10]:
Mhmm.

Tom Rizzo [00:35:10]:
I always say, why would they? They love the heroic stuff that they see. My son goes and tells me all the time, oh, my dad made this arrest or my dad did this. They love that part of it. Ask my son to go to my place of employment. He'll be like, no. I'm good. I'm good. Because why? He knows that the damn near destroyed me.

Tom Rizzo [00:35:34]:
Not the criminals out there.

Ashlee [00:35:36]:
Right. Right.

Ashlee [00:35:38]:
That's interesting, actually. That's a really interesting part of this. Right? Because I don't well, but you also are yeah. I mean, you talk about it. You communicate. And I'm just thinking about all the families that I work with or people we've even had on here. Right? And, like, what's the biggest thing, Jennifer? We always say is that communication piece even though obviously child appropriate age wise, but, like, is that communication piece? I'm like I mean, I guess I guess there's some similarities that I've openly talked about being extremely frustrated with my dad's department. I've obviously had really great times there when I was younger, and I was naive to everything and didn't know.

Ashlee [00:36:11]:
But as I got older and he did kinda let me in a little bit more or honestly, I was just nosy and I overheard a lot, like, I I remember being like, what in the hell? Like, I idolized this place. I thought this place like, I, for real, thought it was the best thing that's ever happened. Right? My dad was a police officer. He's a police officer here. And they're they're still to this day. I'm like, no. No. Like, I there's moments where I wanna put them on blast, and I can't.

Ashlee [00:36:38]:
You know? Probably could, but I don't. But I guess I never really thought about that. Now I'm just, like, honestly reflecting as a child of a first responder because I think that's super powerful of your son to be able to be like, no. I'm not gonna I don't wanna go there. Not after a while.

Ashlee [00:36:52]:
He gets that option too. Like, that he can say, like, hey. No. Because sometimes kids aren't given choices by their parents.

Tom Rizzo [00:37:00]:
But you see, you hit the nail on the head. Both of you did. And this is where I always try to preach to people. Don't make the same mistakes I did. Number one, you have to be very cognizant of the conversations you have at home.

Ashlee [00:37:10]:
Mhmm.

Tom Rizzo [00:37:11]:
Here's why if you're not willing to pay the toll of those consequences of those conversations. So I can't have the conversation at home to my spouse, to my my buddy having a beer, or or or sitting there talking on the phone about my boss is a son of a bitch. Right?

Ashlee [00:37:28]:
Yeah.

Tom Rizzo [00:37:29]:
Then three days later, you have an event, and your family has to go. And guess what the argument's gonna happen is? I'm gonna say to my spouse. I'm gonna say to my kid. I'm gonna say to my best foot. Hey, man. That was my boss. You didn't even say hello. Dude, three days ago, you were just saying you can't stand this guy.

Tom Rizzo [00:37:50]:
You can't stand this girl. But you want me to do what? Kiss the like a yeah. No. That that rebuttal almost inevitably happens. So number one, be cautious of the conversations. Number two, and I've seen departments start to employ this, and it's a beautiful, excuse me, system. When you hire somebody as part of the initial phase of hiring, they meet with whether it's one officer or if there's a a team of officers being hired, they meet with their significant others, their parents, whatever, you know, the situation may be, siblings. Bring them in.

Tom Rizzo [00:38:24]:
Okay. Your loved one is inevitably going to come home and spew stuff that happens here. Let me explain some of it from my mouth to your ears. This is the way it works around holidays here. You're young. You're new. You're gonna have to work, and you're not getting ripped off. It's not targeting.

Tom Rizzo [00:38:44]:
It's like sometimes we can't predict what's gonna happen. So I know you expect Jimmy or Jane to be home at 10PM. They're not gonna get home by 10PM. It's okay. Sometimes the world this is they just lay out a blueprint of transparency, of what a promotional process looks like, what selections to units look like, what are what sick time looks like. Mhmm. Right? All these things so that what are you doing is you're in it's a marriage of sorts. When you bring somebody on, you hire them, but you hire the baggage that comes along with them.

Tom Rizzo [00:39:22]:
And the leaders that I've seen that get this right are in touch with that system. Because why? That's then going to implicate how that man or woman performs where in the field. The deniability of that we don't bring home to work with us is a fool's game.

Ashlee [00:39:41]:
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Tom Rizzo [00:39:43]:
It's a fool's game.

Ashlee [00:39:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. I also think and and I think this is true, again, for that first responder that has their foot in their personal family life and that foot in that professional life. You know, that secrets keep us sick. And I think that in organizations, the more secrets are, the sicker we are, and I think the same for families. The more that we're not communicating and I say secrets. This isn't even, you know, in terms of a family, like, you're keeping a big secret, but you are keeping something when you're not sharing, when you're not communicating, when you're not talking. And even, Tom, I've appreciated your point throughout today, which is to say, I don't know.

Ashlee [00:40:23]:
Sometimes that's what we're feeling. I don't know. And we can be really afraid just to say, I don't know. There's a lot of pressures to constantly be the expert. And I tell you, the biggest freedom I ever had when I was like, I don't have all the answers. I can try to find what I can find, but we don't always have to have all the answers. And that can be a really a really nice place to be in sometimes.

Tom Rizzo [00:40:48]:
Yeah. But let me let me tell you, I adore what you just said because I tell everybody this. I say, you know what? I want you to start putting on resumes and CVs as a trait. Right? One of your strengths. I say put resourcefulness. And everybody always ask me, especially the younger officers, what do you mean by that? I'm like, I'm the type of guy that right now you could put me on the spot and say, Tom, what's the difference between igneous and metamorphic rock? And I'm gonna say, no idea. Here's what I followed up with, though. I'm a go find out.

Ashlee [00:41:17]:
Of course. Of course.

Tom Rizzo [00:41:18]:
What I'm saying is but our exteriors say what? Everything on the uniform says, look at me. I'm up why do they call my thing Ivory tower? I'm up here. I'm supposed to be the end all be all. If I admit that I don't know and I go to somebody of lesser stature and rank and turn around and say, hey. Can you show me how to do this? That's going to erode from my credibility when it does the exact opposite. It's gonna say this guy or this girl doesn't operate in such a tunnel of ego that they had the wherewithal to go like this. I have no idea how to you can you show me? I have the things I'm good at that I could show you.

Ashlee [00:42:04]:
Right.

Tom Rizzo [00:42:04]:
But there are some things that's gonna come across the purview of my day, and I'm gonna say, I have no idea. And then you know what the beauty of that I do is, and I'm great at this? I then blast the things I didn't know. I turn around, and I will blast it out. Hey. I had no idea how to do x y z. I called this girl, Ashlee, up. She showed me. Bye.

Tom Rizzo [00:42:30]:
What what now? You look at me as a if I'm a dope? Okay. That's your opinion. You're entitled to it. I'm confident in what I can do. Right.

Ashlee [00:42:39]:
Right.

Tom Rizzo [00:42:40]:
Not hard. It's free. It's readily available, and everybody's got room in the budget for it.

Ashlee [00:42:45]:
I hate that. Budget. I feel like that word is oof. That word is heavy.

Ashlee [00:42:51]:
The budget. We're always worried about the budget. We're always worried about that. Always worried about that.

Tom Rizzo [00:42:55]:
Isn't it ironic how every department in the country has mandatory training on how to use a fire extinguisher, though?

Ashlee [00:43:01]:
Yeah.

Tom Rizzo [00:43:03]:
That makes sense.

Ashlee [00:43:04]:
Oh my goodness.

Tom Rizzo [00:43:05]:
You know, that that's that's yeah. That that's always been very, you know, puzzling to me.

Ashlee [00:43:10]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I know that we have limited time, and I don't wanna go over our time. So I just wanna ask you well, actually, kinda open ended, Jennifer, unless you want it more specific of any last comments, things that you want our listeners to hear that you want us to focus on, just ways to help or navigate some of the stuff that we're trying to do.

Tom Rizzo [00:43:30]:
Well, first and foremost, and and I I am not saying this to blow smoke. People like you guys are considered guardian angels to us because despite the obstacles, despite the sticks, despite the stones that are thrown into your path, please continue to do what you do because at the end of the day, when we do feel like people care about us, I would implore you to put the pressure on and keep pressure on administrations to allow them to be honest with you first and then worry about getting to the men and women that belong to their organizations. Allow them that outlet that you're not looking to exploit them, that you're looking to support them. Allow them that outlet that this will only help make your day better. I know you're tired. I know you're stressed, and I know you can't share all of that with the men and women under your command, but that's where we come in. So I would implore you to don't, you know, allow your mission to be hijacked like we allowed some of ours. For your listeners and your viewers and your support and your networks, I would only beg of you beg of you is, Skip, while we appreciate it, and I speak very, you know, openly about what I I am very careful to represent all police.

Tom Rizzo [00:44:45]:
Right? But I say this. We overwhelmingly appreciate to be thanked and and have the cup of coffee bought. Again, that's amazing. You know what goes a heck of a lot further, though? When you're involved in a conversation in your social groups, in your schools, in your churches, in your programs, when you see common sense things, just help us with common sense. You know, you see from across the country, if an officer has a transgression, god forbid, commits a criminal act, whatever, that gets publicized as it represents every one of us. Whereas heroic actions happen so many more times each and every day that you don't hear anything about.

Ashlee [00:45:31]:
Absolutely.

Tom Rizzo [00:45:33]:
The overwhelming majority of us are good. And do you know why I say that so prominently? Because the overwhelming majority of people are good, and we are people. So the same way you want the discretion of, okay, you were a little heavy footed on the gas pedal today. You were just having that day. Well, maybe, just maybe, give us that same thing in regard that maybe, just maybe, you want us to treat you like human beings. All we're looking for is to be treated like human beings in return.

Ashlee [00:46:06]:
Absolutely.

Tom Rizzo [00:46:06]:
The uniform doesn't make us perfect, and it puts us in no position to judge other people the same.

Ashlee [00:46:13]:
And can you share with us your book title and where

Jennifer [00:46:16]:
we get it?

Tom Rizzo [00:46:17]:
Yeah. So I I was so blessed this blog. Like, I had the the the picture in my mind of what I wanted. I wanted some type of symbolism of public safety, so what better than a badge falling out of the sky on fire as if, like, if we continue this trajectory. So I'm like, oh, what's that sound like? Oh, that's like a kamikaze mission, a kamikaze pilot. So I called it Kapikaze, c o p I k a z e.

Ashlee [00:46:40]:
Love it.

Tom Rizzo [00:46:41]:
And then I've entered this blog group of just an idea, and they are the ones that did the artwork and the graphic for it, which came out amazing. But it's a book, you know, that I did with kind of, like, lessons and then, you know, just different way. I I did it from a three from a trifold perspective. Those of us in the field, for the loved ones of those of us in the field, and, ironically, oppositionists out there. It's not a love affair with what we do. I think you could tell by my disposition. Mhmm. It's just an open and candid way of analyzing just kind of this whole thing, this whole mission as to what it is that we're supposed to be doing.

Tom Rizzo [00:47:19]:
And then if we don't adapt it, one click to the right, one click to the left, it's gonna continue to be what it seems to be now, almost like a kamikaze mission that we're just crashing our own cars into our own walls.

Ashlee [00:47:31]:
It is literally fantastic.

Tom Rizzo [00:47:33]:
Oh, I

Ashlee [00:47:33]:
know what my dad's getting for Father's Day, so thank you, Tom.

Ashlee [00:47:36]:
It's so good. It's so good. I was I love it. And I I actually, again, give it out and encourage so people talk to read it. So we are so excited for that. Again, we're just so thankful that you are on today, and we'll kinda wrap this up so you can get going. But it was an honor, and I feel like, again, every discussion I have with you, I leave with more thought. Like, I I feel like I can run through a brick wall.

Ashlee [00:47:59]:
I'm like, I got so many things I gotta try and do and everything. I get so motivated, so I appreciate it very much.

Tom Rizzo [00:48:05]:
No. I mean it. And it was so nice meeting you as well, Jen. And, and I mean it. From the bottom of my heart, I have such a, love and respect and admiration for what it is that you guys do. Because, again, from my own journey and and survivability that, you know, yes, my children were the driving force in that. But if I didn't have folks like you to offer me the mental clarity that I needed, I know I wouldn't be sitting here today. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you.

Ashlee [00:48:30]:
Thank you so much, and thank you again for your time and, gosh, incredible message today. I'm so excited to get this one out for our listeners.

Tom Rizzo [00:48:37]:
Absolutely. Thank you.

Ashlee [00:48:38]:
Just has to remember that when the call hits home, Jennifer and I are here for you.