The Vagus Nerve and First Responder Wellness

Jennifer [00:00:05]:
Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Saylor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop. And this is the podcast when the call hits home.

Ashlee [00:00:14]:
Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer.

Jennifer [00:00:21]:
Welcome back to when the call hits home. I'm Jennifer.

Ashlee [00:00:24]:
And I'm Ashlee. And today, we have, I have to say it, a special guest

Jennifer [00:00:29]:
Always special.

Ashlee [00:00:30]:
Always special. With you know, people can, like, make a game out of our podcast every time Ashlee does that. But it's always true. I mean, hey. Everyone who comes on here is super incredible, and we're always thankful. So I'm gonna hand it over to her now to introduce herself and get you guys a little bit of information about what we're gonna be talking about today.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:00:48]:
I'm Jamie Lynn. I'm actually a long term friend of Ashlee's, and I am a licensed social worker, hopefully soon to be a licensed clinical social worker. Yeah. I'm licensed in Illinois and Wisconsin.

Ashlee [00:01:00]:
Yes. That's awesome. And so can you give us a little bit about what it tell us a little bit about the population you work with because this is different than what we're used to bringing on guest wise.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:01:12]:
Sure. So currently, I actually work with, children's, teens, young adults. I mean, a little bit of everything, but my primary caseload right now is, yeah, children and adolescents.

Ashlee [00:01:22]:
Children and have folks? Children and adolescents. Let me tell you something. I couldn't do it. I do do it a little bit. I do do it a little bit.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:01:31]:
It's fun. They're so fun. If I have to laugh because I always say this in, like, everything. Anytime I talk to somebody when I first started this career, I never thought I was gonna work with kids or teenagers, especially teenagers, because I had this mindset of like, oh, god. No way.

Jennifer [00:01:45]:
They're the worst.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:01:46]:
And then I yes. Like, that was what I literally thought. I was like, I hated being a teenager, and there's no way I'm gonna work with them. And now I work with them, now that I've started, like, they're actually, like, one of my favorite populations to work with.

Ashlee [00:01:59]:
I love that. I love that. Actually, in my head, this is so bad, dad. Sorry. But, like, in my head, I'm like, oh my gosh. Same. You know, I actually grew up being like, gosh. These police officers.

Ashlee [00:02:08]:
I swear. I'm good. And now I'm like, give me more. Like, this is who I work with. So just I think

Jennifer [00:02:14]:
there is a little bit of, like, when you're start like, in school, if you say, I'm not going to work, that actually means you will will be working. I can remember being young and dumb and being like, I'm not gonna work with anybody with substance use problems and then cut to I'm running an IOP. Like, yeah.

Ashlee [00:02:33]:
Of course. Of course. Forward. I guess I thought

Jennifer [00:02:36]:
I wasn't gonna work with humans. Like, what do you mean you're not gonna be working with people with substance abuse problems? Yeah. This profession has a way of finding where things are. But, you know, this podcast is for first responders, and, Ashlee, I was really excited to have you on because some of the things you talk about with your clients, I think we think would be great for talking about with our awesome listeners. And that is tell us a little bit about kinda what you kinda hone in with with some of your clients.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:03:09]:
Sure. So I really focus in on the connection of the body with the mind. And so, specifically, I work and use different aspects of, like, the polyvagal theory, which brings in this idea of the vagus nerve that actually has so much to do with the physiological response that our body has to our emotions. So that vagus nerve is actually, like, the longest cranial nerve in our system, and it touches every single organ in our body. And so then when that gets activated, what happens is oftentimes, like, maybe there's a stressor, and we have a big emotional response to that. But it's not just the emotions that we feel. It's the physical response to it. You know? So, like, our heart rate might increase.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:03:55]:
Our digestive system slows down because it can't be in the way when we're, you know, feeling stressed. So it's things like that. It's building that connection, building that awareness of what is the physiological response that I have, and can I connect it to the emotions that I'm experiencing?

Ashlee [00:04:11]:
So I love this because every single one of my sheriffs who I know they all listen to me on this podcast. Right? Like, I'm gonna take token. Did I call y'all out or not and see how many of you know? Should know a little bit about the vagus nerve, but I don't go too far into it. So in my training, I talk about it. I just literally have one slide on it, and it's I give them the whole thing about the brain and how the brain reacts to this high stress job. But then I brought up the vagus nerve, and that's why I'm so pumped to have you on because I am the first to tell them, like, I'm I don't I haven't done my research on this much. I know the basics, and that's it. But they should all know, which makes me excited, what we are talking about.

Ashlee [00:04:51]:
And the further elaboration, I think, for me, is gonna be incredible to help all of my first responders who have listened to me train them now, get a little bit more insight on it because they definitely don't spend enough time on it.

Jennifer [00:05:02]:
And that cranial nerve is just we're talking about the base of our brain, and it goes all the way down our spine. Yep. So that is feel it everywhere. Massive.

Ashlee [00:05:13]:
I always think about it like touching. It's so creepy, but, like, touching everything inside of you. Right?

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:05:19]:
I do too. Like so when I think of, like, for whatever reason, I like to think of, like, the skeleton. Yeah. And then I think of the nerves that come through it, and I just imagine it touching every single part of our body. And so, yeah, it's it's that.

Ashlee [00:05:33]:
Kinda pumped because I felt the same way, and then I'm like, am I being silly? But I'm actually excited that our brains thought the same thing.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:05:40]:
So I think it's just a I think it's a therapist thing. Maybe it's a nerd thing. I don't know.

Ashlee [00:05:44]:
I don't know. It's definitely a nerd thing. So tell us a little bit more about the importance of tapping into the vagus nerve and what that can do for us.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:05:56]:
Sure. So the vagus nerve, it carries signals from our brain to different parts of our body. So that means our brain, our heart, our digestive system, our immune system is affected by the vagus nerve. And it's just the importance of that is building that connection of, like, yes. This is the response that I'm having to the stressor that I'm having and, you know, building that bridge there.

Jennifer [00:06:20]:
So I just I'm I'm gonna actually take one step back, which is just a little bit of the body mind connection. And, obviously, we're talking about this vagus nerve and, well, it connects. But can we talk just a little bit about how we experience our world and our bodies and then how our minds are a part of that? Like, that's a real loosey goosey therapy question there for you, Jamie Lynn, but

Ashlee [00:06:52]:
I'm gonna ask it.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:06:54]:
Goodness. I mean, I might go on off on a whole different kind of tangent then with that. So I'm gonna kind of go back even to, like, early experiences, you know, early childhood experiences and how we view the world and its safety and our our felt safeness in that. And so built based on those early experiences even with, like, our caregivers, you know, having that safe, supportive, nurturing environment will often lead us to understanding the physiological responses in our body and trusting those responses. If we have kind of a hyperactive kind of nervous system, maybe because of trauma or maybe some insecure kind of attachments, like, we're gonna view the world differently. We might feel our emotions and the physiological responses with those differently than those in, like, a safe, secure, and nurturing environment.

Jennifer [00:07:46]:
Absolutely. I think that's important to talk about, so thank you for breaking that up.

Ashlee [00:07:51]:
Well, that and I think, like, just in terms of clinician world. Right? You say that, and I'm I start smiling because I'm like, this this is so true. Like and Jennifer can probably really relate to this is that when we have first responders come in our office Mhmm. A lot of the time, it is from their childhood. Right? And there is so much education that I have to give. And, Jennifer, you speak on this too, right, of, like, just exactly what you said of those early experiences shape some of this now. There's no doubt about this. Well and

Jennifer [00:08:25]:
I think we experience our world with our bodies, with how we see, hear, smell, taste, feel with our skin. Mhmm. And from that, we learn messages, especially when we're really little, like, who's safe, who's not safe. There was nobody keeping us safe, so I'm gonna work really hard to make sure I keep people safe. Or there was nobody that was protecting people, so I wanna protect people. Or there was crisis is all the time, and I had to go put out fires. And so sometimes I I mean, I'm speaking that from sitting on this side of meeting with first responders that sometimes it's I've been doing this my whole life. This isn't just started with I put on a badge or, you know, I put on the uniform.

Jennifer [00:09:14]:
So, yeah, I just think that that's exactly what you're saying there, Ashlee. And so why would it be important for first responders then to understand more? Because we don't have time machines to go back, you know, to recreate our childhoods. So what do we do in the here and now, and why would first responders be need to hear about this nerve?

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:09:38]:
I think it's about building recognition and awareness for when our bodies go into those different kinds of states based on those emotions.

Jennifer [00:09:46]:
Mhmm.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:09:47]:
And without that recognition, without that awareness, we can avoid it. We can ignore it, or we can kinda lean into it. Or the more healthy option is how can I cope with this? Right. And and recognizing those differences of my body and my safety are in danger versus, you know, I'm actually safe in this moment, and it's just a perceived danger.

Ashlee [00:10:10]:
Something that's connecting in my brain right now, and I'm kind of flying off the cuff, so I'm sorry. But it's just that notion of our first responders live in this, like, hypervigilance. Right? So I guess in our world, we always say that that that their limbic system can be a little bit hijacked and that they're always kind of living with that amygdala signaling and those negative stress hormones dumping. And so could you speak upon, like, how activating the vagus nerve like, how does the vagus nerve help in that situation? Because I think we have a lot of first responders that they just never calm down. They don't know how to

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:10:48]:
be calm.

Ashlee [00:10:49]:
And so I think that the vagus nerve plays a pretty big role, and I love that you said recognition because I always stress you cannot change anything until you actually realize what needs to be changed. Absolutely. And so I think that there's like, can you speak a little bit upon how the vagus nerve can maybe help the brain when the brain is always on go like that?

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:11:11]:
Yeah. So because that vagus nerve touches every single organ and then so everything is connected, in that stress response, our vagus nerve is actually it's got, like, that low tone to it. And so the iron the irony of that is that everything else is really heightened, so our heart rate is increased. The signals in our brain are probably super fast, and we're just kind of queued in on what it is that we're doing in that moment. Everything else on the outside doesn't matter. And so that's that intense hyperfocus.

Ashlee [00:11:43]:
Tunnel vision. That's

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:11:44]:
Tunnel vision. Yes.

Ashlee [00:11:46]:
Men and women know it as. Yeah.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:11:48]:
Yes. And so and for what I'm gonna guess is that for first responders, we they have to have that in order to do their jobs. But, yes, how do we turn that off then? And how do we find that safety in Yeah. Calmness? You know, how can we get back to that resting zone? I'm sorry. I forgot what the rest of that question was.

Ashlee [00:12:06]:
No. You're good. And I would keep going with that. Right? It's you can feed into it of, like so I guess, like, the next thing would be because it's important with that lower tone, what I think you're conveying too is that it it will help the body come back down. Yes. But we have to do we have to activate that for that to happen?

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:12:24]:
So there are yes. You do need to activate that because, otherwise, the vagus nerve is gonna do what it wants to do because it's just an automatic thing. We have actually no control over that.

Ashlee [00:12:35]:
Okay.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:12:36]:
It's just an automatic response. But, yes, there are ways to calm that vagus nerve. Everyone's gonna probably roll their eyes at me because I always get eye rolls for this one. Deep breathing.

Ashlee [00:12:45]:
I was just about to say you're gonna say deep breathing.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:12:48]:
I'm gonna say deep breathing. Yes. Because when we bring that oxygen in, it's actually gonna touch that cranial nerve and reset literally the whole body. And that's why we practice that because once that activates, it tells our body and it signals like, hey. You are safe. You can be calm in that moment.

Jennifer [00:13:09]:
The thing I said about the body earlier and, you know, I've definitely said it with clients before who have rolled their eyes of, like, really, lady? A deep breath is gonna change my life. And in some ways, they're not wrong. You know, you're not gonna take one deep breath with me, and that's gonna make you relax. But it is this idea when our brain is going a million miles and you're scraping yourself off the ceiling because you're so high strung. Those emotions are so intense that that physical response is so high that the only way you're gonna communicate with your body is through your body. And that's what taking a deep breath is, is the body's language of saying you are getting oxygen. You have to have oxygen to live, and that is just the language that the body knows. So I think that taking a deep breath is super important.

Jennifer [00:14:06]:
I also think taking a deep breath while you're in the middle of a crisis situation is actually helpful, but it's not really where you learn the change of it all. And this is probably gosh, Ashlee. If I'm already a broken record on this podcast, I apologize. But, you know, I, heaven forbid, have never been in a building that's caught on fire, but I know what to do if there is a fire because we practice fire drills when there's no fire. And so it is just like, can we practice taking deep breaths when we're at a five instead of at a 10? You know? And then when we get to an eight, those deep breaths that we took when we were at a five are helpful. And sometimes if we keep taking those deep breaths at an eight, we're not always gonna get to 10. Not always. Sometimes we'll still get to tens.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:14:57]:
You know, the importance of the deep breathing, what I imagine it as to is, you know, it's important to be able to take a pause within, you know, a crisis state of mind or when we're feeling stressed because if we're constantly go go go, the brain's gonna continue to go go go and so is our body. So that that breath actually allows us a second to kinda ground ourselves and be like, hold on. Let me regain a sense of control here. So it slows that process down. It kinda, you know, breaks it up a little bit in order to refocus, reset. You know, what can I do about this moment? So it's allowing yourself just that pause and to kinda break apart some of the symptoms that are just going automatically.

Jennifer [00:15:39]:
What is the vagus nerve tone? When you use the word tone, what does that mean?

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:15:45]:
So my understanding of it is really the intensity of the felt symptoms. So that's that heart rate increase. Like, it feels like it's pounding in your chest. It's you're breathing, it might be really, really fast, or it might be, you know, slower than it normally would be. That's maybe feeling really hungry before a stressor comes on and then not being hungry once you've experienced that stressor and that, like, it's just gone because we don't have we can't worry about that right now.

Ashlee [00:16:15]:
I smile because I always in my training room, I always call my my police out, and where I'm always like, you know that doughnut you ate in the morning? And they're always like, Ashlee, why do you why you gotta do it? I'm like, because I have to do it. Like, I have to throw it in there somewhere. I'm like, when you're in a high stress situation, though, like, when that when those tones drop and you go to your call or what have you, like, your body stops. It conserves

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:16:39]:
that energy.

Ashlee [00:16:40]:
So that digestive tract stops. Right? Like and so then guess what? That doughnut is not actually digesting like it would in another moment. Right? And if we're living in that, no wonder why we have so many people. You guys already hit on the fact that our bodies tell us. Right? You talked about the heart rates going. You talked about, like, our stomachs and everything. But we we have to acknowledge, like, I we have so many first responders with medical concerns, and the tests come back negative. Like, nothing's wrong.

Ashlee [00:17:10]:
Right. And it's because of this stuff here. Right? Like go ahead.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:17:16]:
It's those somatic symptoms. Yeah.

Jennifer [00:17:19]:
Well and I I'm just kinda thinking out loud here, and so don't feel like you have to have an exact answer to this question. But what happens with our first responders who then it's that drinking from the hydrant, you know, we get so flooded with these stress response calls that are we just sometimes we shut down, and we don't have the uptick in tone, if you will. What does that look like?

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:17:53]:
So you're talking about kind of that flood of emotions, but kinda getting used to it, maybe it doesn't really seem to phase us.

Jennifer [00:18:00]:
Right? Well,

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:18:01]:
and I understanding it.

Jennifer [00:18:02]:
Yes. And I think of I'll give a silly example here. It's the in terms of a family system, because, you know, Ashlee and I, growing up in those homes, where the spouse is so stressed out about something, and it's just not a big deal. And there could be something that is a big deal, and the first responder is pretty flat in how they respond to things.

Ashlee [00:18:28]:
So instead of, like, hypervigilance, we're talking like that hypo.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:18:31]:
Yeah.

Ashlee [00:18:32]:
Like, just not like, being slower to everything. I think of a turtle or a snail, and our response time is a lot slower. Our reaction time you know, like, our language is slower. Like, all those things kinda slow down. That's what you're mentioning. Right, Jennifer?

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:18:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. So that's kinda yeah. That hypoarousal state, almost that freeze state when we think about our stress responses. Now I don't think I've touched on that. So I if you want me to explain it, I can. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:18:55]:
That would be awesome.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:18:56]:
Yeah. So along with so we're talking about the stress responses, and there's we're often kinda cycling through this loop where we're sitting at rest digest. And so that's kinda that baseline where we're feeling calm, we're feeling connected, we're feeling social, where our body is responding to things the way that it should, meaning, like, we recognize our hunger cues, we recognize when we have to go to the bathroom. When we experience a stressor, then oftentimes we go into fight or flight. Okay? And so those are those hyperactive and hyper aroused states where, yes, we notice that heartbeat. Our mind kinda is going a million miles per hour, etcetera, etcetera with that. We can only do that for so long. And so once we hit that fight or flight, eventually, that energy drains, and then we go into that free state.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:19:42]:
And so that's kind of those hyperarousal states where, yeah, we're kind of we're slower to respond. Maybe our mind is really slow. Our language is slow. This is what I like to call kind of that, like, almost depressed state where we just feel heavy and just wanna sleep. And then it loops back through where we have to, actually go back through fight or flight in order to return to our rest and digest it. And everyone's looks different. So that's the fun thing. So some people stick in that, like, hyperarousal state in that fight or flight.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:20:11]:
Other people, their free state is actually, like, way bigger, and we see those responses. And everyone is different based on, again, kind of the experiences that they've had and how they've decided in those moments, like, how it was best to respond, and no one's the same with that. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:20:28]:
This makes our job so easy that no one expects me. Well, I think

Jennifer [00:20:33]:
it goes back to the point that, you know, I think you both made of, like, you kinda have to know this about yourself. Right? Like, you have to kind of pay attention to your body and listen to your body, listen to how it's responding and have some insights there. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:20:51]:
Something that I wanted to ask because although the obviously, the show is for first responders and their families, and then we emphasize children are first responders. Right? But something that I was excited about was bringing someone on who do who, like, does work with children, and adolescents. And so we're talking about this vagus nerve and how it can help Maybe in your world, Jamie Lynn, like, take us outside of ours for a minute here. What does it look like in terms of, like, how how do you approach this with children, or are there ways that, like, first responders who are listening who are parents can incorporate things with their kids, to help with the vagus nerve and things like that?

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:21:27]:
Sure. So it depends on how many age. So I wanna emphasize that because, like, I'll do different interventions for kids that are, like, four, five, six versus kids that are, like, you know, between eight and 12 and then even teenagers. So, like, when they're younger, I do a lot more play therapy aspects with them. And what that is, I let them I'm very nondirect. I let them lead the way, but what I do is I provide the language for them through meta communication, and I let them know, like, you know, as they're playing, what's happening in their bodies because it shows through. And I'll be like, wow. Like, you were really excited by that because you, like, threw this up and down and providing that language.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:22:06]:
For older kids, I actually have these cute little neurons. I love them so much. They're, like, little sewn neurons, and they each have their own job. And it's all to build this thing called interoception, which, again, connects back to the vagus nerve and all that stuff. But it's how we check-in with our bodies. And so I'll let them pick through, you know, my nerve my little neurons, and we'll talk about, like, okay. Where are you right now? You know? Are you feeling hungry right now? Are you tired? Is the temperature hot or cold in here? So we're building that connection of, like, the physiological response to the emotional response. Cool.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:22:40]:
And then with, like, my teenagers, for instance, I mean, we'll really just kinda talk about it, and I'll promote, like, that mindfulness aspect with them to, you know, key into what their body is is telling them. And so we'll do different things with, like, art therapy with that. Even I'm not trying to think what else we do. Oh, things with, like, music just to kinda relate to the physiological responses we might have to different songs that we listen to, and we'll talk about it. So it's building that understanding and that language for them.

Ashlee [00:23:11]:
Yeah. So I hear you saying that, like, as a parent, we could even tap into, like, trying to help them identify

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:23:17]:
Yes.

Ashlee [00:23:17]:
What's going on in the body with the emotion they are feeling.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:23:21]:
Yes. I like this a lot.

Ashlee [00:23:24]:
I absolutely like that. Thank you so much. Because I think Yeah. Right? Like, we're talking about how do we use this, but I also want people to recognize, like, you can use it in your own homes too and help your kids become more connected with it as well.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:23:36]:
Yes. And I think the tricky thing too about being a parent myself and also having to recognize this is recognizing your emotional state for yourself first and then helping your child guide through their emotions. Because oftentimes, as parents, like, we're so quick to be like, oh my gosh. Our child is, like, having a tantrum meltdown right now. Like, what do I do? And if we're, you know, way up here in my hyper aroused state, we're gonna miss kind of those connections that our child needs. So we actually have to address ourselves first and be like, woah. This is stressing me out. Give yourself what you need and then connect with your child.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:24:13]:
And that can be really hard in, like, those high intense moments when, like, emotions are everywhere and spilling out.

Jennifer [00:24:18]:
Amy Lynn, are you on my soapbox that I get on my bed?

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:24:22]:
Maybe. I go off of my soapboxes all the time. Well and

Jennifer [00:24:26]:
I think that one is a huge one that, you know, I I clearly talk about in session with clients, but also talk about with mom friends and other friends that are parents in terms of if we want anything for our kids, if we want them to have good vagus nerve tone, we have got to figure out how to have that. And so, you know, all the things that we're ever gonna want for our kids, we have to first kinda see how do we carve a little bit of that for ourselves. And that can be hard, but it is. It does start with kind of knowing our own. Because I tell you, man, I get the Sunday scaries. And, oh my gosh, we gotta get everything ready for the week and every and my body responds. And mom is stressful and not fun on Sunday nights when she's packing lunches and making meal preps and all those kind of things. And so they they know to kinda stay away.

Jennifer [00:25:25]:
And yet, you know, I have some awareness of, like, I do get a little, like, irritable and sassy, and I'm not so fun on Sunday evenings. And so but I think that that those are all things that, like, I have to take some accountability to know those things and have that awareness. And I think you're exactly right. If we want those things for our kids, we have to be willing to do those things for ourselves. And, honestly, just playing with your kid is that's going to regulate you.

Ashlee [00:25:59]:
Yes.

Jennifer [00:25:59]:
Those kids are awesome.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:26:01]:
And it it also builds that sense of connection. You know? And that's really what our kids want and need from us. It's just to feel connected.

Ashlee [00:26:09]:
When I do give my little slide on this, I talk about, like, how a lot of the times our first responders don't have all this time, right, to remember and to do things to to be like, oh, give me a second. I'm gonna try to activate my vagus nerve. Right? That's not how it works. So what I have found that has been the most helpful for a lot of my first responders when working with the vagus nerve are two things. One, if they have the opportunity to put, like, really cold water on their hand and then rub the back of their neck, I feel like that has helped them tremendously or a little bit behind the ears too. And then the second thing, believe it or not, that some of my first responders do, to activate that vagus nerve and to help their body calm down is sour candy. And, like, to to me, I'm like, yes. That definitely activates vagus nerve, and it's kinda like a shock to the system.

Ashlee [00:26:57]:
Like

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:26:57]:
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Both things that you had said are incredibly true. So, yes, the cold water on the face, the neck behind the ears is a good shock to the confirm. And, yes, so is the the sour candy. I was like, even, like, kinda, like, running some ice. You know, same kinda concept.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:27:15]:
Like, you could do that too.

Ashlee [00:27:17]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you recommend things like yoga or EMDR for supporting the vagal regulation?

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:27:27]:
So I would say, like, anything with that movement is really going to encourage that. So y'all absolutely I'm not I'm familiar with EMDR. My, like, base very basic self understanding of EMDR is to, like, reduce that emotional intensity to the traumas that we've experienced in order to process it. So I do think that it could be helpful because you're actually already kind of, like, reducing that intensity of the felt symptoms towards a specific trigger, which I think then would automatically kind of help to promote, you know, that higher vagal tone and that higher, like, groundedness whenever we do feel stressed.

Jennifer [00:28:02]:
We talked about, obviously, the deep breath work. Moving our bodies is helpful. You know, I love the tips and tricks in terms of the ice are super cold, water, and the sour candies. I've actually heard of hot sauce before. I don't know if that's one that you guys have heard of before.

Ashlee [00:28:23]:
Not, but it doesn't surprise me. Right? Because my brain is always like, okay. Like, again, we wanna like, we want it's like shocking the system. So our to me, like, the brain then doesn't have the opportunity to hyperfocus on what it's hyperfocus on. It just does that. All of a sudden it has something else to put its mind towards. Right?

Jennifer [00:28:39]:
Well and the other thing I think you have to be careful with your gallbladder if you have too

Ashlee [00:28:44]:
much hot sauce. What are

Jennifer [00:28:46]:
some other things, though? I mean, I I just I want us to be able to give as many tools to people. Like, you know, I don't know, Jameline, if you have some other things that are really helpful and I do.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:28:59]:
And some of them are yeah. And some of them are actually super easy that we can you know, just typical things too that we do in our day to day life. You know, one can be laughter. Finding something to laugh about, you know, that kind of sends a nice shock to our system too because, like, we feel that joy and, you know, just whatever is funny and how our body responds to that. Like, laughter is super good for that. You can pull up a YouTube video, funny cat videos. That's my go to. Singing.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:29:26]:
Singing your favorite song, maybe belting it out in your car, you know, whatever whatever you need to do.

Jennifer [00:29:31]:
Now if my singing disrupts somebody else's vagal nerves, should I No. I'm very touched about it.

Ashlee [00:29:37]:
Like, that's for them to focus on then. Okay. That's true. That's so funny. Then they need to regulate. Okay.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:29:46]:
No. Not my problem.

Ashlee [00:29:47]:
Get it together because I'm singing.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:29:50]:
Yes. A %. And then I like doing, like, somatic releases too. And so that's one of my favorite things to do with my clients.

Jennifer [00:29:59]:
I think those are good techniques, and I could also see some of those things kinda maybe helping. I work with a lot of first responders that struggle, with bedtime, like sleeping and falling asleep.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:30:10]:
Mhmm.

Jennifer [00:30:11]:
Because sometimes it sleep is the hardest because, you know, that's when our mind wants to go a million miles a minute and stuff. And so that idea of bringing us back into our body to relax it is super important. Maybe I took a left turn there.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:30:28]:
But

Ashlee [00:30:28]:
No. I love that because sleep is huge in our world. Like, first responders, I just today even. Right? Like, sleep was a big topic already today and not getting enough sleep and not being able to sleep. And so, no, I think that's true. Right? Because, again, the goal with that vagus nerve, if I'm understanding correctly, is that it's supposed to if you tap into it, it can help your systems slow down and calm down. And so I think that's perfect. Right? Like and then my brain was like, holy moly.

Ashlee [00:30:52]:
We need to do a whole episode on sleep.

Jennifer [00:30:55]:
Don't we?

Ashlee [00:30:56]:
Yeah. Oh, boy. Days that come up that we gotta cover.

Jennifer [00:30:59]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:31:00]:
Jamie Lynn, we're running out of time, but we are so thankful for you and your ability to come on here and give us a little bit more background into everything. I think, hopefully, you know, people take away some of these little just look research. I always tell myself to research. Yeah. Good. Nerves.

Jennifer [00:31:16]:
Do some

Ashlee [00:31:17]:
research on it. Do some of the give it a chance. It doesn't hurt to do that at all.

Jamilyn DeSanti [00:31:22]:
Thank you guys so much for having me. Like, I feel so honored and excited to be a part of this.

Ashlee [00:31:27]:
Thank you. We are honored to have you. Jennifer, do you have any closing thoughts?

Jennifer [00:31:32]:
No. I think that this is helpful, and, you know, it just continues to be a part of what we wanna share in terms of information that we have. So thank you, Jamie Lynn, for joining us.

Ashlee [00:31:43]:
Yeah. And I just hope, you know, like, it was it's it's a different world that we're combining, but I also love that.

Jennifer [00:31:48]:
Right? Because

Ashlee [00:31:49]:
there's so many different things out there that can help our first responders, and we we gotta tap into each and every one that we can. So I'll just end with the way I always end, and that is, one, thank you guys for dropping on and listening to us. Thank you, Jamie Lynn. But, also, that when the call hits home, don't forget that Jennifer and I are always here for you.