Financial Stress in First Responder Families: Real Talk on Money, Work-Life Balance, & Communication

Jennifer [00:00:05]:
Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Saylor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop. And this is the podcast when the call hits home.

Ashlee [00:00:14]:
Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer.

Jennifer [00:00:21]:
Hi. Welcome back to the pod. I'm Jennifer.

Ashlee [00:00:24]:
And I'm Ashlee. And if you are playing the little drinking game of every time we say we have a special guest, you lose out today because it's just us.

Jennifer [00:00:34]:
Oh, I wanted you to say that we have the most special guest today, which is just you and I.

Ashlee [00:00:40]:
You know what? You're right. You are. But I think we're excited to just come on and talk because we do have we've had some really incredible things happen. We've had some really incredible guests. And, you know, it's always good for us to come back to just each other to really touch base, touch home with everybody and talk about some things that we're seeing happening.

Jennifer [00:00:59]:
I'm just having a flashback to the our first recording when I was a nervous wreck, and it was just you and I. And, like, I think I wrote an entire script out to, like, us You did? No. We did. We did. We really didn't. I still love it. Oh, do you? Well, we'll go into our library one day. But yeah.

Jennifer [00:01:22]:
So I think sometimes it's nice just to have you and I that we love our guests to just talk about different things. And I know one of the things that we have mentioned, like, in other podcasts and just, like, moving forward and the whole family dynamics. And And I guess it's just been on my mind a little bit too with eggs being really expensive. And, you know, it's just talking about, like, the financial stress that can happen within a family and then, you know, what does that look like in the family of a first responder when it's a high stress job? So, yeah, I kinda wanna talk a little bit about that today. And I'll

Ashlee [00:02:00]:
put a little caveat in there that you've had changed your resiliency class because of these egg prices. So people need to get on that. We had a class going. Okay? And eggs ruined it.

Jennifer [00:02:14]:
Hilarious that you bring that up. So for people who have not had to sit through my resiliency class. So good. Which actually came because of COVID. So I do this, like I mean, people probably hate it. I'm the speaker that's like, you're not gonna get to just sit on your phone and not pay attention to me. I'm gonna make you do things. So I get lots of eye rolls when I give my presentation.

Jennifer [00:02:40]:
But with COVID, I you know, people couldn't be close building something together, so I got creative, and we did an egg launch. And I think people really enjoyed smacking eggs against the concrete. But then that turned into, like, I can't afford to do that anymore. And people were like, I miss the eggs. I miss the eggs. And I'm like, well, you're gonna have to go buy the eggs. I can't that

Ashlee [00:03:04]:
can't come

Jennifer [00:03:05]:
out of ways like counseling. Like, that's just have a chicken coop. Like, really lazy chicken coop, fresh eggs because It would be hot hot off the nest. Like

Ashlee [00:03:16]:
Sorry. I'm just derailing us today. But you're not wrong. The financial aspect right? We're roping it back in, and that financial aspect really is taking a hit on everybody right now.

Jennifer [00:03:27]:
Yeah. It is. And it's a stressful thing, and I think so I think this comes up and is why this is an issue for me is, sorry, mom and dad, but we all thought about money a lot. Like, that was a huge stressor, I think, in my experience growing up is just the stress of money. And, I mean, my parents definitely gave me coins to pay for my lunch at times, like, you know, just because things were tight and things were hard, and that's back in the day when we had a decent economy. Like, it's even harder when things are tough. And so I just understand the impact that that has, and I think that that's a big impact for a lot of families sometimes is just the financial stress.

Ashlee [00:04:16]:
Yeah. And I know we've kinda hit on this a little bit before in different episodes, but I think it's really important to to talk about, like, the family aspect, the family dynamics so we can talk about it as children of first responders and what that was like for us. Because I do think there's a little bit of a misconception of like, I remember people being like, oh well your dad's a police officer, like you guys are fine, like financially, and what was far from the truth. Unfortunately I cannot bring any positivity to this either, so my, the way I grew up was not good, and I know I've shared that before in terms of finances and my parents fighting about it as well. So I think, like, money just brings me massive anxiety. Yeah. To this day. Like, to this day.

Ashlee [00:04:59]:
Say, oh, that's my worst thing too. Like, okay. So people said that about my dad, but even now, right, I get this all the time. Well, you're the doctor of social work, people. Have you looked up the salary because it isn't what you think. Right? Like and but yet money really is something that impacts us. And I know, Jennifer, we were talking about our childhoods and how they were kinda similar in that way of just being stressed out about money. And and I think a lot of our first responders fall under this umbrella of getting caught in a cycle that we can work a lot and make money, but then life is happening, and I have to afford it all too.

Ashlee [00:05:39]:
So it doesn't actually ever catch up.

Jennifer [00:05:41]:
You know, I think that's a hard one too. And and, you know, I think, like, I've seen that a lot in terms of this job, you know, sitting in this chair as a therapist and hearing situations where there's first responders who are picking up tons of shift, who are working multiple jobs. You know, I even think about some firefighters who are firefighters and then part time contractors. You know, they're doing home repairs for people all in this aspects of, you know, having more money, which is, you know, I think, again, it's like, well, let me think outside the box. Let me figure out how to provide. And then, unfortunately, I think in a few situations where that kinda blows up in its way because, you know, maybe the family is like, well, you know, you're never home. Like, we never see you. And, well, I'm working so I can provide so you guys can go do the things and that recognition of, like, but we wanna do those things with you.

Ashlee [00:06:42]:
Yeah.

Jennifer [00:06:42]:
You know, that's great that you send us to Disney, but we want you at Disney with us. That can be extremely hard as well.

Ashlee [00:06:51]:
And I'm gonna say something that's maybe a little, like, challenging, right, for people to hear, but, I'm just honest on this show. I'm honest in person. It's who I am. Right? Like, while there's this aspect of, well, I'm working to provide, and that's fair. I do see that a lot. I also see a lot of my first responders having struggles within their home life. And so it's easier to say, let me go pick up all this overtime because I'm making money and avoid the conflicts at home, sometimes too than to just be, you know, home with the family. And I think, like, I would love any listener listening to us to be insightful on that because while you are doing that ensure you are providing, and it's a great excuse.

Ashlee [00:07:34]:
Right? Hey. I'm bringing home the money. We need the money. Everybody needs more money. Right? Like, you are missing out on all that time with your family then too,

Jennifer [00:07:44]:
like, especially your kids. Well and I appreciate, you know, that there is some situations where that is really true. I I've found my broken record. I don't know if I've shared this or not here. But, I mean, I can remember having my son and being on maternity leave. And, you know, he was this wonderful thing that we were so happy to have. And I look forward to going back to work, and I was like, what's this about? And, you know, in some reflection and meeting with my own therapist and talking about, like, well, I'm much more confident as a therapist than I am as a mom. And I think that that can be really true sometimes.

Jennifer [00:08:25]:
And and, again, like, I'm happy to be a mom. I don't just, you know, put them in a closet and work all the time. But anyway not. But it's also this kind of idea that sometimes you're exactly right. Like, that there is some comfort in why I know the job. Maybe the job is black and white. Maybe the job is where some place I can get some feedback. And, you know, people don't have to know every aspect of me.

Jennifer [00:08:54]:
Like, our family knows every aspect of us and sometimes love to remind us that we're human and things. And so I appreciate you bringing that point up, Ashlee, that sometimes it's well, it's about providing for my family when, really, it's about escaping some of that stuff. That word.

Ashlee [00:09:13]:
Right? I actually hear that very, very often in my office. I hear, like, verbatim all the time, work is my escape.

Jennifer [00:09:23]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:09:24]:
Escape from what? Right? Like, that should not that should be the opposite.

Jennifer [00:09:29]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:09:30]:
And and that's a heavy word for me a little bit too. Like, clinician wise, like, escape. Like, it's a big word or we're not you know? And yet, my first responders say it quite often. You know? And I do think that finances are a really big theme that I see when I have first responder couples or families in my office. And, again, it is this escape of saying I am giving more money to this family by doing

Jennifer [00:09:58]:
this. Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:09:58]:
Right? And yet we're still avoiding kind of the main conflicts then.

Jennifer [00:10:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And when I think too of seeing ourselves as whole, like, again, when I talk about becoming a mom, I wasn't a mom. I, you know, was a daughter and a friend and a wife. And and and then there's this new role that I take on and having to see ourselves in all of those positions instead of just what I do. And I think that's a theme of the podcast is that we talk about this over identification with the job, and what does that do impacting our families. You know, I think reflect again to our first episode and talking about, like, oh, I'm the kid of a first responder or kid of a cop.

Jennifer [00:10:50]:
But really in my reflection of, like, well, he really was my dad first. Yeah. That's And this was something that was othered. And I don't know that sometimes though that line can be blurred. And I think that I've had experiences as a kid that that line can be blurred.

Ashlee [00:11:06]:
Absolutely. You know, when I present because I I I have this, like, opportunity that's been incredible. It's it's not easy for me to do, actually. I go present at different departments now about what it was like for me to be a child of a first responder, and I give all my credit to my dad for allowing me to be so open about things and to do that. Right?

Jennifer [00:11:25]:
Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:11:26]:
And yet when people ask me so I present on other topics as well. And I always say in my presentations, like, I would rather present on the other topics than what it was like for me to be a child of a first responder because I'm standing up there completely vulnerable, giving it my all. Right? And it is bizarre to me sometimes. Like, I think that just hit me, and now I'm processing out loud. Just that notion of, like, yeah. I guess I never stopped to think, like, he should have been my he is my dad first. Right? And yet when I, like, even do that presentation and stuff, like, it's all about him being a police officer before, you know, and then being my dad. Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:12:05]:
And so that is actually a very interesting take because I don't I don't know. Do you think it's easy for somebody to get that mixed up though too? Right? Like, the prior wouldn't it just be a priority at that point? The priority of being an officer in my career Mhmm. Versus my family.

Jennifer [00:12:24]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:12:25]:
But societally, we put so I don't even know if that was a word. But we put so much emphasis on our careers in making something

Jennifer [00:12:32]:
It is. Else. We go to a social event, you know, one of the first questions that if you meet a stranger is, what do you do? I mean, I definitely think that that is a huge part of our identity. Yeah. And we're not walking up to

Ashlee [00:12:48]:
someone being like, are you a mom?

Jennifer [00:12:50]:
Yeah. Right? Like, are you a dad? They do that too. I mean, I did ask somebody asked me yesterday if my child was in college, and I was like, no. No. But I guess you think I'm older.

Ashlee [00:13:02]:
Okay. First off, let's take a break in the action. Right.

Jennifer [00:13:06]:
No. No.

Ashlee [00:13:07]:
No. Norms one zero one. Don't say that to anybody.

Jennifer [00:13:11]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:13:12]:
Yeah. Come on.

Jennifer [00:13:13]:
But, no. I mean, I definitely think that there's things like that to consider. You know? We're definitely taking this down a path, aren't we?

Ashlee [00:13:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. And more of, like, an open vulnerable one, though. Right? Because, like, I

Jennifer [00:13:26]:
was like,

Ashlee [00:13:26]:
uh-oh. Oh, that just smacked me in the face when you said that. Well, and it did because of that. Like and, again, I just stress when I give my presentations like this one. I actually don't love to give compared to my other ones because it's factual information. This is, like, my life and and being vulnerable. Right? And there are moments when I, in though in my presentation, I say things and all of a sudden it hits me again. Right? Or I I think of something new and I'm like, oh my gosh.

Ashlee [00:13:51]:
Like and I think that for me, like, the financial aspect, I really think that that drove my dad's motivation in life, but, like, also just so much negative came from that, but not in a bad way. Right? Like, he didn't mean it bad. He was just trying to provide and do what he had to do. You know, I think of when my parents were divorced and I was living with my dad, and, like, I did not. I was younger. I mean, 18, 19, I think. Maybe a little younger too. And then, like, well, I don't know.

Ashlee [00:14:26]:
I don't remember even when I went to school. But, anyway, I was, like, home alone, like, all the time. You can ask my friends. We love the house. It turned into a break. Sorry, dad. It is what it is. Like,

Jennifer [00:14:39]:
because he wasn't nobody was there. Right. I mean, when the cats away, then my soul go ahead.

Ashlee [00:14:44]:
Memories, everybody. Don't go looking at my past. But he wasn't there, but he was working. And I, you know, I I struggle sometimes. I don't take it personally necessarily because I knew he had to work to feed me. Right? Like, to poop the roof over my house and stuff. But then I do think about all these times. I like, I'm not kidding.

Ashlee [00:15:05]:
It would be day sometimes days because my stepmom lived out in the area that he worked, and we're, like, forty five minutes away from his shop. So, like, if he worked a double, he would stay at her house to get up to go back because he worked at Anne's. Right? So, like, if and it makes sense. So sometimes I was alone for a few days partying, you know, living it up. But, really, in grand scheme, like, that all could have been time he could have had with me or, you know, us as his kids and stuff, but he had to make that sacrifice to just make it work.

Jennifer [00:15:39]:
Yeah.

Ashlee [00:15:40]:
Right? I'm mumbling. I don't know. But

Jennifer [00:15:42]:
No. No. I mean, I think I'm following you at all, and I think it's this whole thing of, like, it's interesting what making money will cost you sometimes, you know, when you are working those overtime jobs and things like that. And, again, with good reason, and and those aren't bad things. It's just this it's just all about looking about where is a little bit of the balance. And, you know, balance doesn't look like fifty fifty equal. You know, balance is sometimes I have to put extra energy into this right now, whereas, you know, this will have to kinda wait and exploring that. And, you know, I'll say for me, you know, again, there is just a lot of conflict around finances.

Jennifer [00:16:32]:
And I think, Ashlee, you say this a lot in the podcast. I think it's really true just about communication and communication being so important in, like, navigating those things. And so overshare, I think my husband will be okay with this. But, you know, I think that that just, again, had me avoid, avoid, avoid because finance equal fights, and I don't wanna fight. And so let's just not talk about money, and then we won't fight about money. And, again, that just didn't work, and it's just like, well, if we communicate and just seeing those opportunities maybe in the family I grew up at, I was like, oh, there might have been some more opportunities for us just to have some open conversations around things. That would probably help in things being a little less stressful about money.

Ashlee [00:17:22]:
So defensiveness comes to mind when I hear you say that. For me, like, growing up, like, the I I feel like because finances give me a lot of anxiety and I've seen such negative sides of it, like, if I'm questioned by my husband about finances, I get defensive right away.

Jennifer [00:17:40]:
Alright.

Ashlee [00:17:41]:
And it's not even about that. Right? Like, he's not he's not trying to be mean to me. He is trying to have a conversation with me, but I get so defensive and, like, fearful. I'm just gonna put it out there. I'm just I get fearful that I'm gonna turn out to be what I saw in terms of finances, and I I, like, I can't have that. Right? Like, so I go overboard in my life to try to make sure that that doesn't happen. But in the and I am calling myself out, like, in that in those moments, I do struggle really bad to have anything like, to have communication on it even though I know it's the best thing because I feel like when I'm approached with it, I have to be defensive about it.

Jennifer [00:18:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well and same. And I feel like, you know, any conversation was about budget was, you know, I'm being sent to the principal's office and

Ashlee [00:18:37]:
Mhmm.

Jennifer [00:18:37]:
You know, let's judge all the things. What it say, you know, it's so expensive to look this cheap. I think that's a Dolly Parton quote. You know, those kind of things that you like that you're gonna be held to task for. But I will say, I think something that helped me is, you know, I listened to tons of podcasts and somehow stumbled on because trust me, I was not seeking out any financial podcast. The algorithm got me, and it just had me kinda reflect on those experiences, you know, that I had as a kid and that, you know, I think some of the research says by age seven, we have beliefs and finances. And listen, let me speak a little bit here in terms of, like, I had a roof over my head. I had food in my stomach.

Jennifer [00:19:29]:
Like, we were not by any means without as some people. I mean, some people's experiences were homelessness or or hunger or things like that. And and what does that set you up for when you think about money? You know, it's that scarcity or what poverty's impact has about your beliefs. I I went off a tangent there just, again, because I wanna acknowledge.

Ashlee [00:19:56]:
Well and I think you don't realize, though. So you spit that fact out to us a few episodes ago, and what I wanna say to that is that I'm so thankful that you did because I literally had someone come back and say it to me verbatim from, like, listening to us. And what I love about when that happens is that I know in those moments that our listeners are taking a second to think, right, and to reflect. And I think that's the whole point of us coming on with this little more brief podcast episode because we are gonna lead into having someone on here to talk about finances. Right? But because we're not experts. No. Disclaimer. But, like, I definitely what I would love for any first responder and or their family listening to this, right, is is to reflect on that individually and bring it back to your partner.

Jennifer [00:20:48]:
Exactly. Just think about yours. Just think about your experience. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:20:53]:
Where did it come from? How did it come from? Don't be that first responder who just searches out all that overtime to not be home and make those memories. But also, right, like, use it to your advantage if you do need it. Like, there's so many different ways, and so the only way to actually file through that is to stop and think about it and to be reflective on it.

Jennifer [00:21:11]:
Yep. I agree with that completely. And, yeah, we just wanted to hop on and kinda talk about some of those things and their impact because of those. I I definitely feel like I love the charge on this one, Ashlee, in terms of, like, hey. I wanna talk about this, but I appreciate, as always, she's just being so brave and so open.

Ashlee [00:21:30]:
You have to be. Right?

Jennifer [00:21:31]:
Like, I think, like, the

Ashlee [00:21:32]:
best part about our podcast to me is this world of, like, I can dive into me and give you what I got even though it's uncomfortable. But I can also dive into my clinical side because

Jennifer [00:21:43]:
there's

Ashlee [00:21:43]:
no lie that relationships is probably my number one concern with all of my first responders right now. And guess what? Finances fall right under that.

Jennifer [00:21:54]:
Don't they?

Ashlee [00:21:55]:
Right? Like, that's such a big theme that continuously see. And so the whole point of this podcast, no. It's not all the time are we gonna have record breaking episode where you're getting all this brand new information that's changing your life. But I will tell you that I will talk about finances six six hundred times over until somebody gets it. And if they get it and they change it and do whatever, oof, I'm happy.

Jennifer [00:22:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And, again, you know, Ashlee and I are not experts when it comes to that, but, obviously, we wanna get you guys in touch. And so that's some of our work too in having this conversation is trying to, you know, hear your guys' feedback and say, is this something we wanna talk more about and and have experts on?

Ashlee [00:22:35]:
And there might be a kid out there listening who's a child of a first responder going through the same thing. Right? We are both children of police officers. We both experienced our our parents going through divorce.

Jennifer [00:22:47]:
Yep.

Ashlee [00:22:48]:
Right? And, unfortunately, we both had to experience that financial aspect of it due to the due to that. Right. Don't just get to get out of that.

Jennifer [00:22:58]:
I see that at my

Ashlee [00:22:59]:
presentations all the time. We see here everything that's going on in the home. And and in this first responder world, what do we know? We know that divorce rates are super high, and we know that financial problems are super high.

Jennifer [00:23:12]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:23:13]:
And so we have to talk about it even though it's very uncomfortable.

Jennifer [00:23:16]:
It is. And I think it goes back to that, like, communicate, communicate, communicate, and we gotta we have to, you know, communicate if that's what we want for our listeners. So that's why we're on here just kinda sharing about those things. But thank you, guys.

Ashlee [00:23:31]:
But more in the exciting round of

Jennifer [00:23:32]:
it is that we do.

Ashlee [00:23:34]:
We're not just gonna leave you kinda leave you hanging. We are

Jennifer [00:23:37]:
kinda leave you

Ashlee [00:23:37]:
hanging, but we're not because one of the biggest things that Jennifer and I always talk about is, like, these themes that we see with our first responders. Right? But then we also seek out some very amazing people to help us convey messages and give us, some tips or tools or what have you, whatever you wanna say. And so, obviously, we're leading into some things here and just wanna leave you reflecting before we give you the meat

Jennifer [00:24:02]:
Yes.

Ashlee [00:24:02]:
Of the financials. Yes.

Jennifer [00:24:04]:
Yeah. So stay tuned.

Ashlee [00:24:06]:
Our listeners think of me. Like, this girl is on it. She's on it.

Jennifer [00:24:10]:
You know that is none of your business. Oh my god. Lord. But Sometimes

Ashlee [00:24:17]:
we bring the hot sauce.

Jennifer [00:24:18]:
You should be, concerned what I think of you, and I think you're the best and wonderful. Going out.

Ashlee [00:24:24]:
The same. I'm like, I need your calmness. I'm always going off. But we are super thankful for all of our listeners.

Jennifer [00:24:31]:
Always. Yes.

Ashlee [00:24:32]:
We shared some great news earlier. I shared some great news off air that our listening has gone up drastically, and we're just Yeah. Bold and honored. Yes. So thank you everybody for for doing that and and sticking with us.

Jennifer [00:24:47]:
Yeah. You guys have a good one.

Ashlee [00:24:49]:
Absolutely. Don't forget that when the call hits home, Jennifer and I are here for you.