Chief Deputy Justin Miller On Transforming Law Enforcement Mental Health: Culture Change, Officer Wellness, and Redefining Leadership

Justin Miller [00:00:00]:
Can I get the current number for eap? I have an employee here who might need some services. Their response was, yeah, we don't have EAP anymore due to budget cuts. And I'm like, okay, well, so at that point, in this agency, we didn't have a peer support team. And it was just. There was nothing. There was no. I had nothing to do for that employee. And I kind of felt like a loss other than what I knew from my psych time.

Justin Miller [00:00:28]:
Right. And so I just kind of counseled them myself. But I knew at that time that we had to be better.

Jennifer [00:00:35]:
Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer.

Ashlee [00:00:38]:
And I'm Ashlee. And we do have. I'm just going to say it because it's like a running joke. Now, a very special guest today, and this person has turned into one of my very favorite humans quickly. So I'm honored to have him on, and I'm going to let him introduce himself because we got a lot of good content today.

Justin Miller [00:00:53]:
Hello. I am Chief Deputy Justin Miller from the Kenosha Sheriff's Office, Kenosha County, Wisconsin. I've been in law enforcement since 2002, and prior to that, I was in the Navy as a psychiatric technician, which is.

Ashlee [00:01:08]:
I know Jennifer's face. It's like, wait, what?

Jennifer [00:01:10]:
Yeah, yeah, this is a podcast. But if you guys saw my face, I did not know that was on your resume. My goodness.

Ashlee [00:01:17]:
Yeah, it's really hard because he knows all the ins and outs, too. Like, he's.

Justin Miller [00:01:19]:
He's with it, the old ins and outs now.

Ashlee [00:01:24]:
He's amazing.

Jennifer [00:01:26]:
I was about to make a bad joke. Okay, well, we're excited that you're here today, and I appreciate your time, and I appreciate you sharing that you're a chief deputy, and I think that's kind of what we want to talk a little bit today in terms of your title and what it means to be leadership in law enforcement. And I just kind of want to ask, when did you recognize that investing in mental wellness for the officers you would serve should be a priority or prioritized?

Justin Miller [00:01:49]:
Yeah. So I touched a little bit on some of my background, but, yeah, psych tech in the Navy from 95 to 2000. I think about my time when I work back in the field. It kind of opened my eyes to the world of mental health. And full moons. Full moons are a real thing.

Ashlee [00:02:05]:
A real thing.

Justin Miller [00:02:06]:
Inpatient psych world. That's a real thing. But I worked in the inpatient unit at Great Lakes, and I think about the medications that we administered as Navy Corpsman basically did the work of nurses. Right? We. We actually gave the shots and administered medications, did the surgeries, things like that. Right. But I remember, like, watching the. Those.

Justin Miller [00:02:27]:
Those side effects of those medications, you know, the catatonic shuffle, the tardive dyskinesia, you know, things you would see in, like, those old movies, but then you would see it in real life and it was like, surreal, Right? You know, my mom's uncle was in an inpatient unit when I was growing up, so I can still remember the smell of. Of the psych unit when you would walk in. And it smelled the same way when I was in the Navy. And then when I got out and I went to Arizona State University, I worked as a psych tech in the Maricopa County Hospital, which was totally different than my time in the Navy because basically, like the little room that you're sitting in, I did a lot of coloring activities with the patients and fed them. Right. We didn't. We couldn't administer medication. So in my time with the sheriff's office, I would say that, you know, I experienced a couple major personal life events in my first seven years as a deputy.

Justin Miller [00:03:22]:
One of them being I had a significant other who committed suicide. And then my. I lost my mom in 2009, and she was like my best friend. So there is no help offered or even compassion given within this organization. Right. And you know, another event I recall is I was at my uncle's funeral and I got a call from the department and the supervisor on the other end of the phone was ordering me in for duty, like, immediately. Right. And I was like, at my uncle's funeral, and he's in.

Justin Miller [00:03:56]:
His response was, and I quote this, well, uncles are not covered by funeral leave, so you have to come in. And I remember going to my family and like, hey, I gotta leave, because I just got ordered into work. And they were, like, dumbfounded and just like, I couldn't even participate in the funeral for my uncle.

Ashlee [00:04:19]:
Right, right.

Justin Miller [00:04:20]:
So that was. So I fast forward, you know, to my second assignment as a sergeant. You know, I get promoted, and again, I get promoted. I think, okay, I'm going to have a voice in this game. Right? And not necessarily that mental health was on my top priority list, but even in the military, you always want to be promoted because you want to be better than the people that. And I use this in a loose term, led you, or I should say manage you, because there's a difference between leaders and managers, right? Yeah, I can teach anyone to manage somebody, but to actually lead them is, I think, is a calling, but I won't go into that right now.

Jennifer [00:04:57]:
I think that's a good point, though.

Ashlee [00:04:58]:
It is, it is.

Justin Miller [00:05:00]:
So I was assigned to the conveyance unit, and one of my employees had some, let's just say, major mental health issues that they were dealing with. And on one of our filing cabinets, I remember there was this magnet for eap, right? And I just remember seeing that magnet. Never heard anything, talked about eap, Nothing, you know, So I gave the employee that information, sent them on their way. Well, they returned, like, 15 minutes later and said, yeah, the county isn't covered by that anymore. And I'm like, what? And they're like, yeah, they said that we're not covered, that this. This is an old number or something. So I called my hr, and I was like, excuse me, can I get the current number for eap? I have an employee here who might need some services. Their response was, yeah, we don't have EAP anymore due to budget cuts.

Justin Miller [00:05:53]:
And I'm like, okay, well, so at that point, in this agency, we didn't have a peer support team, and it was just. There was nothing. There was no. I had nothing to do for that employee. And I kind of felt like a loss other than what I knew from my psych time, right? And so I just kind of counseled them myself. But I knew at that time that we had to be better, right? However, being a sergeant and that old. In that old culture of the department that I work in, I had no voice, you know, again. So I'm like, all right, well, I got to be promoted lieutenant to have a voice.

Justin Miller [00:06:27]:
Well, again, find out that that's not the case. So when I was promoted to captain in 2016, again, I finally. Finally would be able to be heard because I got to sit at the table. So some other incidents that took place in our agency over the years that I just, you know, I'll never forget is just a couple officer involved shooting calls. One in particular, I. I was coming out from third shift, and we were. I was asked to bring out the less lethal beanbag gun, right? So I'm like, okay. And I was a.

Justin Miller [00:06:59]:
I was a hostage negotiator back in my day, right? And they were at a barricaded. Guy was just in his car. Barricaded, but had a long gun, and the SWAT team was out there. So I was asked to bring out this less lethal. So I bring it out, and I remember my boss was negotiating at the back of a squad car, and so I Run up to the back of the squad car with this gun, and I'm like, hey, where is the guy? And he, like, points and he's like, literally 10ft in front of us. And so I'm. As soon as I get there, you know, I hear, you know, I see the SWAT team. I see, you know, everyone's kind of around, and I.

Justin Miller [00:07:40]:
He's trying to communicate with him, and I see this guy's long gun come out of his window, and then just shots just rained out, right? And I was like, oh. I'm like, what just happened? Right? So I remember having to go. I. I got assigned to go with. I mean, the guy was killed. I got assigned to go with a body to the. To the hospital. And then once I cleared the hospital, they had me bring the mobile command, our mobile command center for interviews and things like that.

Justin Miller [00:08:10]:
And I remember the union requesting time for the officers to, you know, leave. You know, kind of what the protocols are now, right? You don't have to talk right away. There's a, you know, a level of decompression, all those things. Demanded. Actually ordered them to all stay on scene. And they were interviewed one by one in this command post, right? So then I think, okay, no one would. I know now, right. I didn't know any better back then, but no one would.

Justin Miller [00:08:39]:
I know now. I'm like, oh, my God, that was a horrible decision. Yeah, the. The trauma that they just experienced. I mean, you know, I went to the ER with this body, and I'm like, I just remember. I can still see, like the guy looked like Swiss cheese, you know, I mean, it was. It was like almost like stuff I've seen in the military from, you know, combat versus, you know, I'm. Wait, I'm out on the street.

Justin Miller [00:09:04]:
And I was probably only a couple years on at that point, you know, and so I think about that, and then I remember that those officers that were involved were told to come back to work in 48 hours and go back onto their shifts and got zero critical incident stress debriefs, zero opportunity to have counseling sessions where we didn't have eap because this is well before the budget. Bad magnet, right?

Ashlee [00:09:31]:
Yeah.

Justin Miller [00:09:32]:
There was, you know, a handful of different officer involved shootings that happened over my time up until my, you know, actually when I was first assigned the second shift as a lieutenant, one of my first months on, we had an officer involved shooting, and I actually bought my shift food, right. I brought it to. To kind of our safe zone, if you will, Right. And I bought Them food out of my petty cash. And I got my butt chewed for weeks, right? Because I wasn't supposed to buy food out of my petty cash. It's not authorized. And so. And, you know, fast forward.

Justin Miller [00:10:11]:
I just buy it out of my own money now. But whatever, you know, it's so I just remember that was the culture, though. The culture was you don't. I felt like you don't take care of your people. You just make sure that you're operationally ready. And. And, you know, then those officers again got, you know, thrown back into the road in 72 hours and told, you know, rub some dirt on it. You know, get back out there.

Ashlee [00:10:33]:
I think the most powerful thing about that, though, in our position, right, Is like, what you're saying still happens. Those negative things still happen at a lot of departments. Like, we still hear that today, right? And so I think that can be the challenge. And the frustration is like. And it's amazing that you're on here being open and talking about that, especially in your position, because, like, for us as clinicians, right, like, we hear. We still hear of all those negative things of people being like, oh, well, suck it up and get back out there. Oh, well. And it's like, how are we still in this position? And so it's important for us.

Ashlee [00:11:05]:
I do want to ask you, what is your department's current strategy for supporting the mental wellness of your officers after having that culture shift? What are you trying to implement?

Justin Miller [00:11:14]:
Yeah, so I would say that it's my personal, number one priority in the twilight of my career, something that I've been pretty passionate about for years, you know, been trying to change that culture. I've been told my ideas were too grandiose, out of touch with reality, you know, but over the last eight years, I've witnessed agencies all over the United States implementing the very things that I would talk about, right? Those cutting edge, you know, mental health days, mental wellness rooms. I mean, in West Virginia, they have a. I think it's called the Hero Center. It's like a mental health center. Like, right? Like, they have a gym, a room with. Next floor has all those massage chairs, and the next floor is just a meditation room. But those things I've always, like, I'm like, okay, why can't we work out on duty, right? Or whatever.

Justin Miller [00:12:03]:
It doesn't have to be workout, whatever you want to do for an hour, nap, siesta, whenever, you know, meditate. What? Like, why does it, you know, why does your, you know, 10, 7, or your lunch have to Be eating food. Right. Why can't we just do whatever we want during that time? So I think our strategy is to provide a psychologically safe workplace. And again, I've been reading this book, the fearless organization that just talks about creating a psychologically safe workplace that you can feel supported. Our employees have a voice, right. Making sure that everybody has a voice at all levels, have any and all resources that are available and at their fingertips. Right.

Justin Miller [00:12:47]:
We've actually partnered with this amazing provider that shares some of those same visions as I do. So I think we're getting there.

Jennifer [00:12:54]:
I've heard about that provider.

Justin Miller [00:12:56]:
Yeah. I mean, other than being a Bears fan, she's, I'm not a Packer fan, so it doesn't matter.

Ashlee [00:13:03]:
No, we actually get along very well because of that.

Justin Miller [00:13:06]:
Right, Right. But currently we have an app called Cortico which is, you know, and kind of a one stop shop for wellness, if you will. There's different programs in there. There's one touch provider like, you know, we can program in providers and they just have to hit the button it calls that provider. Same with our peer support, has meal planning, all these different things, workouts. It's, it's pretty robust. We also offer Smart Dollar from Ramsey Solutions, which is, which is a, which is a financial wellness piece, peer support. But the financial wellness, I'm, is probably one of my larger passions now and in the later stages of my life because, you know, I wasn't taught proper financial guidance, you know, as from my parents or even in the military.

Justin Miller [00:13:57]:
And I, I just think that, you know, it, it goes hand in hand. I think, I think the mental health of our officers. There's three, three or four things, right? Your physical wellness, right. Your financial wellness, your spiritual wellness and really your resiliency to get over things that may or may not have happened to you in your life, right? Not being a victim of your circumstances, if you will. But the financial piece is that, you know, if somebody is so much in debt or they're living paycheck to paycheck or they're budgeting based on their overtime, right. That creates so much stress in their life that every other part of their life is going to be affected. And I've heard you guys talk about it on your podcast about how important the finances are. And so I think offering this program and I, and I get it, people are like, if you listen to Dave Ramsey on, on his podcast, right, he, he's very to the point, right? He, he doesn't hold anything back and he, he could be an acquired taste Right.

Justin Miller [00:14:59]:
And I know people don't. I don't. People don't. They like, they like to play that airline credit card points, he's anti credit cards, you know, things like that. But I always thought of Clark Howard. I don't know if you guys know who Clark Howard is, but he's another financial guru that I grew up listening to on the AM radio. Right. He still has his own podcast, but if those two had a baby, I think they'd be perfect because they, they do, I mean, but they do offer a lot of good advice.

Justin Miller [00:15:26]:
So these younger, you know, I teach in the academy and I teach officer wellness in the academy, and I've incorporated a lot of the financial wellness because it used to be there was only one slide. The state gives me one slot, one slide on financial wellness, and it's the very last slide of a four hour presentation. So I try to incorporate that more throughout the entire presentation, throughout the entire class. But a lot of it is I tell these kids, right? How many of you, this is your first job that you've ever worked, Right? Like real job, you know, because we can have 18 year olds in these classes. You know, you only need to be 18 to be a cop in the state of Wisconsin. So they, they range from 18 years old to, I mean, we've had people as old as 50 in the class, so they have such different life experiences within that class. And a lot of those prior military folks, right, they, they kind of can help mentor those younger officers. Because those of us in the military, we made the mistakes of going across the street and buying the car for 50 interest because it was cool.

Justin Miller [00:16:31]:
Right. Even though they told us not to, we just like, we're going. I think the financial piece is good. Yeah.

Jennifer [00:16:38]:
Well, I just, I appreciate you bringing that up. There's a book called the Psychology of Money, and of course, I'm blanking on the author's name, but you know, the finances stuff, if it was just numbers of two plus two equals four, I think we would all be able to manage money. That would be a simple black and white thing. And yet it's a real soft skill where emotions are so involved. Like, I want the cool car because that might make me feel cool. You know, you have to kind of dig through some of that too. And I think that there's this real marriage of rationale and feelings when it comes to spending money. So I, I don't mean to get us off track too much, but I appreciate you.

Jennifer [00:17:18]:
Yeah, up in terms of financial stress is a mental drain and so it is address. Something like that. That's a skill. Like, that's a good one. You kind of answered a little bit of my questions in terms of, like, how you prioritize mental wellness, and that is kind of a compassion of yours as a leader. I want to go back a little bit and I. You might not have an answer to this question, but I'm going to ask it anyways. I appreciate you being so honest about, hey, I was a sergeant.

Jennifer [00:17:47]:
I'm going to have a voice. Oh, wait, I don't have a voice. Oh, I got promoted to lieutenant. I'm going to have a voice. Oh, wait, I don't have a voice. Do you have in your experience why that is or what happened in those situations that maybe. I don't know.

Justin Miller [00:18:02]:
Yeah, yeah, I can, I can give my theory on it, I guess. I think it was the same as in the military, right? There's like, you're following this old school thought process. You're following these grizzled, salty veterans that they, they know it all, right? They're the most important person in every room they walk into. They're the smartest person of every room they're walking into. They're not humble at all. There's no humility. I think one of the most important things I learned when I was a new supervisor is they made us take out a piece of paper and they write, they said, they write this down and you're like, all right, you're all eager, right? I am not the most important. I am the least important person in my organization.

Justin Miller [00:18:49]:
Because as a supervisor, you only matter a little bit, right? Your people matter more. Your people are more important, right? Your, your employees, without your employees, you are, you're not a supervisor. You're not a leader, right? You, you, you need them to, you know, and the higher up you go in the organizations, the more important that really is, I think so. I think they bought, I think, along the way, the old culture was, you know, I remember jfd, you know, you know, you got just. You guys can figure out the f. Do it, right? That's what, that's what they would say. Jfd Deputy. Yeah, like this generation, that of our new employees, right? This new generation is a wide.

Justin Miller [00:19:33]:
They want to know why, right? They want to know what the value they're going to get out of doing what you want them to do, right? So we have to provide. And I think even my generation, I think there's a cultural shift in every generation. Yeah, right. And the inability to shift with that Culture as a supervisor or the inability to not be able to learn how to lead those new generations is problematic. You know, I said I would talk about a couple books, the Ideal Team Player by Patrick Lencioni, right? It talks about three key things. It's being humble, hungry, and smart, right? So humble. The humility, right. That.

Justin Miller [00:20:16]:
That speaks for itself. But we have to be. We have to be humiliate, have humility in our lives. We have to be able to be humble, and that's what we look for in our candidates, right? And I ask every supervisor candidate in an interview what it. What humility means to them, right? And I asked them these three things. I actually asked them all of them. Hungry is the ability to continue to learn, right. To continue to grow.

Justin Miller [00:20:41]:
You know, I'm sure you've heard the term leaders are readers, right? We. We constantly have to be.

Jennifer [00:20:47]:
Yeah.

Justin Miller [00:20:47]:
Filling ourselves with, you know, substantive matter. You know, like, things that matter to us. And, you know, as. And Ashlee knows, I listen to way too many podcasts. I read way too many books maybe, you know, sometimes I get like, I'm all over the place. Being hungry is that. But being smart is the emotional intelligence part. Like, how can you read your own emotions? And how do you read others? Right.

Justin Miller [00:21:12]:
When you react into situations, do you. If an employee is. Comes to you and, you know, you guys are having an argument, are you blacking out? Are you shaking uncontrollably? And I mean, I used to have a lip quiver. If my lip would quiver, the employees like, all right, I'm leaving. But I've learned how to control all that stuff. Like, I've learned how to control my emotions. I know what triggers me. I.

Justin Miller [00:21:37]:
I've. I. So it's all about trying to learn those type of things. And I think the old generation just maybe didn't embrace concepts like that or didn't have concepts like that.

Jennifer [00:21:50]:
You know, I, first of all, I appreciate you willing to share that and kind of what your experience said of that. And I think sometimes it can be, well, when it's my turn, I'm going to do what they did to me. Like, it is this. Like, I have. I have the crown, and so they better bow down. And I really want to thank you and celebrate the fact that you had those experiences and said, well, now I'm at the top, so I'll tell everybody to shut up. Instead, doing the way that a good leader would be, being like, actually, the best information we get is from the people that are working. What feedback do they have in terms of how we can help and be supportive up to their jobs.

Jennifer [00:22:32]:
So thank you for them.

Ashlee [00:22:33]:
Yeah. And I think too, right, like the a way we got here was from you listening to us and, and being a little frustrated with the things that we had to say about admin and how that can look in organizations. And I remember at first being like, well, I'm gonna swear. Oh, like he might be angry with me for a second. But then I was like, I actually appreciate this because your anger shows me that you care. It's your passion. Right. And like all ask for.

Ashlee [00:23:03]:
Yeah, you're hunger. That's a great point. All I can ask for is for people in your positions to listen to us and to reflect on that. Right. And to be like, well, we're not all like that. We can make change. Like we want to make change. And.

Ashlee [00:23:16]:
And I loved that because I was like, this is kind of the point I would rather make someone frustrated but thinking about it than not at all. Right. And so I do kind of want to shift a little bit to asking you like, how you. How do you address some of that stigma with your own officers being in the role that you are in, in leadership.

Justin Miller [00:23:33]:
Well, so the stigma thing is crazy. Like I was. My master's program at Arizona State was on human communication. And this is one of the things I tried to study is like the stigma of why officers don't speak to anyone, right. Why they don't come forward with their stressors or whatever's going on in their life. And unfortunately in the program there was not a lot of research out there on it. So I kind of hit a lot of dead ends. But I think we need to again, create that psychologically safe workplace, making sure that people are able to talk if they're willing, educating our staff on mental health, the effects of ptsd.

Justin Miller [00:24:16]:
I don't have where I read it, but I read that an average officer in their career has 100. Sees 180 to 200 critical incidents in their career. The average lay person, like normal person sees one to five in their lifetime. Right. And the five is more females, unfortunately, because of the sexual abuse and things like that. So again, I teach at the academy for the past nine years and been teaching college classes since 2009. So I've made it a priority to erase that stigma or you know, just talk about the stigma and the fact that it's. It's being broken down and there is people like myself and hopefully a lot of other administrators out there that embrace the mental health programs that are starting to become prevalent.

Justin Miller [00:25:06]:
So I hope that with new each generation of officers, that kind of dissipates. Right. That stigma will go away. Right. As the old school mentality rub dirt on it, officers retire that new generation that's been hearing the message at least for the last 10 years. Because I think it's still in the new space, you know, within our profession that they, they will start to outnumber those old salty.

Ashlee [00:25:33]:
Yeah.

Justin Miller [00:25:33]:
You know, officers and then that whole culture shifts and then that stigma maybe erases itself. I don't know.

Ashlee [00:25:42]:
I'm gonna real quick. And then you take over. But I, I kind of have to call you out a little bit on a positive too, is that I think something you do really take yourself outside of your role and you're just a human with your people at times too. Right. So like one example of that would be that I don't know why you wake up at the ass crack of dawn to work out, but you wake up at the ass crack of dawn to go work out and you work out at the, at the building. So other people are working out with you. Right. Like you don't, you don't separate yourself from that.

Ashlee [00:26:10]:
And I think that show that speaks volume, I think, to others too, of just like seeing you for who you are as a human rather than just your role at the sheriff's office, you know, And I think you do that in other places in your life as well, which is really special to people because people struggle with that. Right. Or they'll avoid those things when they're in roles such as yours because they let that take over and that's their identity. And I don't think you do that. And I think you do a really good job just being a human too, like finding that balance.

Justin Miller [00:26:35]:
Well, my, my employees do say if I'm not making fun of them, then I'm probably pissed off for the day, so watch out.

Jennifer [00:26:44]:
Go ahead. Oh, I have to say I'm just really impressed that you didn't make a budget for a private gym just for the chief deputy that only you could use and no one could look at.

Justin Miller [00:26:53]:
Yeah, right, right. I wish. Sometimes the music is pretty loud.

Ashlee [00:26:59]:
I've heard about the music debacle a lot.

Justin Miller [00:27:01]:
Like the old guy, get off my lawn.

Jennifer [00:27:06]:
Well, I'm going rogue a little bit here. But you know, I appreciate you really giving feedback, you know, to Ashlee of like, hey, you know, you're kind of raking admin over the coals a little bit. Like give us a chance to talk and recognize like we are trying to do better and are doing better. I want to say that as well. I guess I kind of want to ask like feedback for mental health providers. You know, you really are trying to partner and talk about wellness and support boarding officers. You know, what do you need from the mental health providers from, from resources, things like that for officers. How can we do better?

Justin Miller [00:27:50]:
Clone yourselves. There's not enough. Right. I mean in, in any realm. You know, I mean I remember my, my daughter was 16 and she was having, you know, what 16 year olds go through and I called EAP for her and they're like, yeah, it's a six month wait, you know, so not, not just in our realm, but in, in all of the mental health world profession. Right. There's just, there's not enough providers, there's not enough folks like yourselves that have the passion to help us. Sometimes we're the helpless, I'm sure because you know, just we're type A personalities by the way that we were raised and brought up and then the culture of our profession and the not willingness to talk at some, you know, so it, once you break through our hard candy shell, you know, we're, we're sweet.

Ashlee [00:28:46]:
We're sweet.

Jennifer [00:28:48]:
Pretty gooey inside.

Justin Miller [00:28:49]:
Yeah. But you know, I think just the continued support and doing what you guys do, I mean, seriously, it's, it was such a blessing that Ashlee came into our organization's life, right? It was, I don't even know. It was kind of wasn't really a planned event. I think it was just kind of like, hey, we're all in the right place at the right time. And yeah, I think just the continued support and putting the message out there that, you know, we're humans too and, and we see a lot and sometimes we need to talk about it and you know, and, and I, you know, from the administrative thing, I hope you know that you guys have 100 administrators that are crotchety, that are out there listening to this and, and they matter, right? Like it matter. The top matters because it does. Without, without the ability or the, the, the want to bring these type of programs into your agencies, there is nothing. Right.

Justin Miller [00:29:48]:
EAP is such a small little sliver really. And, and if you don't, if you're not, if your EAP is not fortunate enough to have a provider that's specifically geared toward first responders, it's not going to matter. Right. I mean, it's just going to touch the surface and it's not going to really be able to dig deep into what do we see every day. Like what, you know, understanding our profession. And, you know, I, I talked to Ashlee about this. I'm like, okay, well, I think about combat veterans, right? You know, the VA system, we get disability for PTSD at some point. These organizations, these organizations, these counties and municipalities, the states.

Justin Miller [00:30:32]:
Right. Where. When is the. When. When are they going to take PTSD seriously for our profession? Right.

Ashlee [00:30:40]:
Yep.

Justin Miller [00:30:41]:
So again, I'm. I'm in the fight with county, you know, politicians that support you with their mouths and their hearts and they want to hug you and, oh, we're so, you know, but when it comes to giving us money for these programs, you know, it's. They would prioritize, you know, BIC pens over the mental illness of. Of our officers. So I don't. I tend to not have much of a filter, as Ashlee knows. So when I get in front of the politicians and county board meetings, I just let them know how it is. And, you know, it's already too late.

Justin Miller [00:31:21]:
We've been fortunate enough to not have any suicides, but we've had officers killed in the line of duty. And actually, one of my good friends, you know, just tragically passed away a few years ago. He was a detective. But, yeah, and it's. It's already too late. Right. But if something happens, we've asked, we've asked, we've asked, we've asked. I tell them the blood is on your hands.

Justin Miller [00:31:45]:
Right. It's on your hands because there's funds available. Right. But we won't get into the politics of it, but at some point, they have to put up the dollars, you know, to. To support this initiative.

Ashlee [00:31:59]:
Yeah. And I think for me, too, that's a whole learning curve. For me, coming into the sheriff's office is the political side because it's very intense and it's very frustrating. And also, though, this reality of, like, aren't we all working for better communities, safer communities, better relations, and yet we have to start somewhere. And I talked. I've talked a lot about this on here. I'm a huge systems theory person and, like, if we're taking care of our deputies, you know, like, on the individual basis, they're going to be better when they get out on the road. They're going to be better for our communities.

Ashlee [00:32:32]:
And I.

Jennifer [00:32:32]:
Better.

Ashlee [00:32:33]:
I don't know how that's an argument. Like, so I. That's what frustrates me is, like, seeing it from that angle, too. Like, we. If you invest in your people who are doing these jobs and making them better, then, yes, your communities are going to get Better too. Like, it's how it works as a system. So, yeah, that whole is extremely frustrating. And I don't know how you do it day after day.

Justin Miller [00:32:57]:
It's not my favorite part of the job, and I think it was. There's insulation at the lower levels or there was. Right. But we try to expose them more to it now earlier on in their supervisory careers because it's a shock and awe at some point, you know, and I'd rather them see and be like a transparency. Right. See what we see. So they know when we're making decisions. It's not just us, there's other stakeholders that create problems for our initiatives, if you will.

Jennifer [00:33:31]:
You know, you spoke earlier about finances and how that's a thing, you know, outside of the job that can cause stress. You know, Ashlee and I are here not because we are first responders, but because we grew up in those homes. And so just thinking about the families and you have an incredible resume, and changing a culture in any place is one of the hardest things you can do. And I can clearly see the efforts that have been made. But I was just curious in terms of. And I appreciate you sharing that you are a parent, like, what impact or what, you know, goals down the line or what would you love to see in terms of how families and family wellness is incorporated?

Justin Miller [00:34:14]:
Yeah, I think it's. It's pretty paramount to a successful wellness program, to be honest. You know, and I. I'm guilty of insulating my spouse from the traumas of this job. And even my children, you know, granted most of their. Their years of comprehending what their dad does have been supervisory roles, so a little less danger than when they were babies. Right now we, currently, they have access to everything that we have. The cortico.

Justin Miller [00:34:46]:
They get, you know, the cortical app. My. My daughter actually used it while she was in college down in Florida, and she needed some help and it worked out really well. We give all of our family members, and I've even extended it to extended family for the smart dollar app because we pay for 400 licenses. And if HR is listening. Just kidding. And then they also obviously have EAP available to them. So I, I think we, for what we have currently, we've incorporated.

Justin Miller [00:35:18]:
But that's great.

Jennifer [00:35:20]:
That's way more than many.

Justin Miller [00:35:22]:
They need to be more involved, though. And, And I think there's plans. You know, we've talked about dinners, you know, family dinners with, you know, like, you know, wife's kids. We have. We've had family days in the past. My Issue is, and if any of my people are listening, they're going to be upset. But I, I can't do it all. I need people that have the same passions and we need to capture those people somehow and that they have a vision that is hopefully more grandiose than mine.

Justin Miller [00:35:55]:
They can come with the ideas. And that's kind of like, you know, I was talking that book, it talks about like, making sure that there's teams like that in your organization that can just throw stuff at the wall and nobody's going to get upset by it. It's just an idea. Right? And they talk about Google X projects in there and you know, and they actually, if you're, if you ran your idea from start to finish, you got a bonus if it failed because they, they want to encourage ideas. Right. And I'm a, that's just, I'm an innovative thinker. I always am coming up with crazy ideas and, and you know, I have my, my best friend on the department, he always tells me that I have too many and I make them read too many books. But just yesterday we had all encompassing command staff and had every supervisor I excused, asked the lieutenants to step out because I wanted to make sure that there was no bottlenecks in the communication process.

Justin Miller [00:36:57]:
So we asked all the lower, the lower supervisors, then the lieutenants, you know, would it be beneficial for you guys to have a separate meeting with just, you know, the sheriff and I in the captains? And I said, actually we will leave the captains out because I want to make sure that you guys, if you're coming up with ideas, that they're not being thwarted at the shift level. Right. You know, I said, I've been there, you know, I, I've come up with ideas and I would go to my, my shift commander and they would just be so, yeah, we ain't doing that, you know, or oh, yeah, I'll bring it up. And then nothing ever happens and you're like, what's going on? Right. So I, I just want a level of like, transparency, innovation. Like we have core values, you know, that are integrity, leadership, ethical, accountability and duty. Right. That's what we came up with.

Justin Miller [00:37:52]:
Because mine that I teach in my leadership classes is ideal. And it, it just sounded better with I lead, you know, but I, I talk about integrity, transparency, being ethical, lawful. And you always have, like, if you do all those things, you will 100% of the time be accountable. Right?

Ashlee [00:38:11]:
Yeah.

Justin Miller [00:38:11]:
Like, you know, and so transparency, transparency is, is super important. And I teach that in my ethics class in the Academy too. Like, about just being, you know, accountable for all your actions. So I know I kind of went down a little couple rabbit holes there.

Jennifer [00:38:26]:
I. The way those rolled off your tongue, I'm like, I know that's not the first time you've used those. Like, then you say every day just. And hearing you talk and, you know, talking about families and I love this, like, innovation and I don't know, I'll speak for myself for a second. I'd love, Ashlee, your experience, but I could remember being a kid in the late 1900s and just simple stuff like the LPOA Cookout. Like, it just being. I can throw some hot dogs on a grill and a public pool and my day was met.

Ashlee [00:39:03]:
Yeah.

Jennifer [00:39:04]:
You know, and to your point, like, you can't be the one grilling the hot dogs and lifeguarding. And, you know, it does take a team to make those things happen. And it can. I don't know. Those are fun experiences I had.

Ashlee [00:39:18]:
Yeah. I mean, I think, like, that's one thing I present on. I have a presentation that I give of what it was like for me to be a child of a first responder to a lot of my people on Kenosha. And like, I do talk about that and I do see a difference. But also, like, department size plays a huge factor. It seems like in it too. But I have to agree, like, the Fourth of July has always been my favorite because I used to. We got special treatment if we went and my dad was working and.

Ashlee [00:39:40]:
And things just being included in his department. There are things I can speak on his behalf a little bit. They're not, you know, you know, 100, but because we have so much, so many moving parts parts right now, building this wellness program that like, from my clinical point of view, wanting to include families in a little bit more educationally. What does it look like to have a first responder in an ois? What transpires by like, keeping families in the loop. Right. I'm going to be hosting eventually, hopefully with his approval at some point. Days like that to bring in spouses. Let's all sit together and let's all talk about this feel included.

Ashlee [00:40:16]:
It's even things like that because this is a scary job. This is. Is a big job. And when those events transpire, if they already know it's going to come their way. Right. A little bit. Obviously, like, there is some ease to that too. So, like, not only including families in the fun of what it is, but also I really want to focus on including families in the educational piece as.

Jennifer [00:40:35]:
Well, I just want to go there. Yeah, but we got to learn stuff.

Ashlee [00:40:38]:
Is that you gotta learn stuff.

Justin Miller [00:40:41]:
Yeah. I can't remember last time we had, I think like a cookout or something. It's been a, it's been probably seven years.

Jennifer [00:40:49]:
The price of eggs, it's just not in the budget.

Ashlee [00:40:53]:
Right. Yeah. I mean, time wise, I don't want to take all your time, but is there anything that you want to share? Can be anything you want at all to other admin, just in general about mental health. It's kind of any tips, I mean, that you would want to give. Obviously, listening to us and listening to other things. What, what are your thoughts? Pretty big question. So.

Justin Miller [00:41:13]:
Yeah, it's a big one. Just be open minded, right? Be, be willing to, to be innovative. Be willing to do things that your people want, right? Listening to your people, giving them that, giving them that voice and empowering them to give decisions because they're going to, if it's their decision, right. They're going to buy in more to the culture shift, if you will. Right. And I know there's some administrators out there that don't want to shift culture, that they want to stay status quo. Right. Because what are the two things cops hate the most? Right.

Justin Miller [00:41:44]:
Change and stay in the same. Right. So I mean, it's. So you just, you just have to be able to put yourself second, third, fourth, whatever it is. Right. I don't succeed in this organization unless my people succeed in my success. I don't even know what that looks like. I mean, I don't even know, right.

Justin Miller [00:42:04]:
To me, it's leaving a legacy, right? Leaving like this place. And I always tell my guys and gals, right, Leave the chair that you're sitting in currently in a better place for the next person who takes it over. Right. Because when I walk out of the sheriff's office in three or four years.

Ashlee [00:42:22]:
You know, let me pull up my countdown. Yeah.

Justin Miller [00:42:25]:
Who's counting that? No one's gonna, I'm not gonna be missed. They're not gonna, they're not gonna be sitting there waiting for Justin Miller to make the next decision or, you know, like they do right now. I, I try to just empower them with the ability to make decisions without fear, without repercussion. And I have to remind myself sometimes that I'm, I do allow that and I can't get upset with them. So I think being a leader is being outside of your comfort zone, right. That you have to sometimes step right outside that comfort zone. Right. And doing things that don't feel comfortable, you know, help others, right? Just help others, even if they don't ask.

Justin Miller [00:43:04]:
I, you know, my, my buddy that I talk about who loves to shame me. Servant leadership, right? We ask that question about what does servant leadership mean to you? Right? It's. And it's the running joke. Every time I'll do something for them, I'll give them like a little, hey, I, I was a servant leader buddy, you know, but making sure your people are taken care of, making sure you give them the, the, the means to do their jobs and the ability to do their jobs of training the equipment, it all goes hand in hand because that's going to create a better atmosphere for them to want to come to work. So some of the positive things that I've seen in our organization because we've been shifting our culture is we have applicants all the time that come and say, I heard what you're doing. I want to work here. And this is the only place I've applied, right? And in this culture, in this environment of law enforcement, right. That you can pretty much walk in anywhere you want because there's openings everywhere.

Justin Miller [00:44:01]:
We have zero vacancies right now. Zero. I, I can say that we are the only agency in this area that has zero vacancies. That is so, so I, I feel like I'm hoping it works. It's working, right? But again, you gotta, we have to build our leaders that are behind us too, right? And I talked about leadership first management briefly earlier, and I harp on that continuously at every single chance I can get. When I get in front of one of my supervisors or if they're struggling or if I'm doing an evaluation, I talk about leadership skills, right? Just if you can't, if you can't be a leader in this organization, you need to demote yourself. Because I don't need managers, right? I can teach a kid off the street to come in and do a schedule or to push enter on payroll, but for you to be out with your people, walking around, being with your people, listening to them, encouraging them, training them, right. Not just trying to discipline them at every turn, right? And that's another culture thing that I've worked on is the discipline aspect, right? And I try to make sure that my supervisors understand that the root word of discipline is disciple, right? It's to teach somebody to not do that thing again.

Justin Miller [00:45:23]:
So if discipline is to teach, and I get. There's different levels, but you need that first level of discipline is to teach them to be a better employee because a better Employee is going to be a more productive employee. And. And I think it just all goes into the whole mental health thing. Right. Just a culture of wellness, if you will.

Ashlee [00:45:44]:
The system.

Justin Miller [00:45:47]:
And I do have to say, you guys got me up 30 minutes earlier to get to the gym today.

Jennifer [00:45:51]:
Dang.

Ashlee [00:45:53]:
What?

Justin Miller [00:45:53]:
So it was. It was a 3:55 wake up today.

Jennifer [00:45:56]:
Oh, that's the middle of the night is what I called.

Ashlee [00:46:00]:
Yeah.

Jennifer [00:46:01]:
Chief Deputy Miller, I can't thank you enough. And just talking about leadership role and you kind of, you know, joking about looking at the calendar and I. I'll give my husband a little bit of credit. I think he would enjoy a lot of those books that you're reading about leadership. But, you know, kind of the job is to make yourself obsolete. Like, the whole point is to have people. And. And he says that all the time.

Jennifer [00:46:24]:
Like, you want to be coaching, teaching, leading people that they don't need you, like that they have those skills. And I just want to say that that is what I hear you say and describe. And I just think that that's incredible and wonderful and speaks volumes that you don't have any open positions. I don't know of any fire department, police department, EMT station that doesn't have at least one open position. So kudos to you for.

Justin Miller [00:46:52]:
Knock on wood. And our corrections, we have zero vacancies, which is even more.

Ashlee [00:46:59]:
We do.

Justin Miller [00:47:00]:
Yeah. Zero. We have. We have actually have five over hires. What? So. Yes.

Ashlee [00:47:05]:
Okay. Look at us. I'm like, what? That's awesome.

Justin Miller [00:47:10]:
Yeah, it was. It's been a process when I took over detentions. I don't want to prolong this, but when I took over detentions in 2016, I had 26 vacancies.

Jennifer [00:47:19]:
Were the inmates running these pretty.

Justin Miller [00:47:22]:
And. And, you know, not to make anyone upset out in the world, but we had ICE detainees back then. We don't any longer, but.

Ashlee [00:47:31]:
Yeah.

Justin Miller [00:47:31]:
Yeah. So our. Our population was pushing a thousand every day. Our jail population.

Jennifer [00:47:38]:
That's wild.

Ashlee [00:47:39]:
Well, thank you so much.

Justin Miller [00:47:41]:
Yeah, thanks for having me. And I hope I made administrators around the world better, or at least I hope there, if those that are listening will change their ways so we don't get shamed on podcasts anymore.

Jennifer [00:47:57]:
I hope that you felt welcome, welcomed here to share your voice.

Justin Miller [00:48:01]:
Absolutely, absolutely.

Ashlee [00:48:02]:
And we can't thank you enough because this is exactly what we need. Right. We need people to step up in your position, to advocate, to say these things. We need to learn from you guys. And yet you're one of the first ones that was willing to do it. So thank you. Thank you so much. I'm excited.

Justin Miller [00:48:17]:
Absolutely.

Ashlee [00:48:18]:
We're gonna let you go. But we are. Our famous line. And that's when the call hits home. Jennifer and I are here for you, so thank you.

Jennifer [00:48:24]:
Thank you so much.

Justin Miller [00:48:25]:
All right. Bye. Bye.