Facing Substance Abuse in First Responder Communities: Lessons from Marian Cosgrove

Marian Crossgroves [00:00:00]:
Alcohol was my solution and I didn't use it all the time. And the opportunity wasn't there until later in life. But I knew how that made me feel. You know, that was my go to when things got bad. It was because I didn't feel comfortable in my own skin. There's two ways my life could have gone. I could have gone on to feel uncomfortable in every living situation and not been a productive member of society. And you know, it's not gotten a good job and kind of stayed in the downtrodden way of life.

Marian Crossgroves [00:00:26]:
But instead I decided to full bore go, you know what I mean? Like my. Because my parents instilled that in me. Right.

Jennifer [00:00:32]:
Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer.

Ashlee [00:00:35]:
And I'm Ashlee. Jennifer. I'll hand it to you, I'm always the one being like special guest.

Jennifer [00:00:40]:
So you got this way to put me on the spot. So we have a special guest with us, Marian Crossgroves, who I'm excited to be here. And so Marian, just tell us a little bit about yourself.

Marian Crossgroves [00:00:49]:
I am an army veteran. Of course I was. I'm old. So when I was in the army, it was back before the war time, you know, the cold war era. But 10 years active duty army MP. I sat on with my kids for a little bit, but then I got into law enforcement. So I've been in law enforcement now for 22 years.

Ashlee [00:01:05]:
22 years.

Marian Crossgroves [00:01:06]:
Oh, makes me feel old. I'm young.

Ashlee [00:01:09]:
It's incredible. Honestly, you are. Marion's in much better shape than I will ever be. So we're just going to put that one out there. So thank you for coming on. Say one of the biggest things so obviously being a clinician and then working with first responders, something that we do see often. Jennifer, pipe up to is substance abuse. It's not something that we can kind of work like we can't say it doesn't happen.

Ashlee [00:01:30]:
It happens in this field all the time. And you just have an incredible story and an incredible way to kind of talk about that. Just gonna first ask you, like, what are your thoughts? Is it more prevalent than what people think? Substance abuse in first responder world?

Marian Crossgroves [00:01:42]:
So coping with alcohol or substances is extremely common and we want to stifle our emotions. We're supposed to be the one in control of the scene and therefore people's worst day of their life and take charge and solve the crime, support these people. So we can't show emotion when we're in the middle. And so when we, then when we leave that scene and we have to go home and be the mom or the dad and play with our kids and listen to this, our spouse talk about the dog thrown up in the carpet. That was the worst thing that's happened to them all week. We just can't handle that. You know what I mean? We're like, what do you mean? That's something. So we want a number.

Marian Crossgroves [00:02:20]:
So. And we. One of the, the ways to numb yourself is definitely with alcohol. It's legal, right?

Ashlee [00:02:25]:
It is legal.

Marian Crossgroves [00:02:27]:
It is.

Ashlee [00:02:27]:
And it's kind of pushed.

Marian Crossgroves [00:02:28]:
Oh, it's socially acceptable.

Ashlee [00:02:30]:
Yeah.

Marian Crossgroves [00:02:30]:
Yes. Yeah, yeah. You have that choir practice at the end of shift, you know, to say.

Ashlee [00:02:35]:
That it's that end of shift. Even our, our overnights, going to the bar. So, you know what I mean? Because that's, it's normalized. It's like, let's. We had a bad day, let's go grab a drink.

Marian Crossgroves [00:02:44]:
But is that always wrong?

Ashlee [00:02:45]:
No, I wouldn't say so.

Marian Crossgroves [00:02:46]:
No, I wouldn't either. It's when we let it monopolize our life. We need that numbing mechanism to, to be there is our mainstay. That's our best friend, you know, that's. That's the solution to the emotions. Our go to our ride or die. That's when it becomes a problem. But even then, some people who cope in that manner can stop or moderate given sufficient reason.

Marian Crossgroves [00:03:11]:
You know, health issues or the wife says, I've had it. The husband says, that's enough. The kids are looking at you like, really? But there's a line there. There's a line that if you cross it, those what seems like sufficient reasons to stop or moderate don't work, and you can't help yourself to continue to cope that way. That's when there's a huge problem.

Jennifer [00:03:32]:
You know, I appreciate that and I, in a past life did work with substance abuse. And it's interesting in our diagnostic manual, which is what clinicians use to diagnose, if you were to look up what causes somebody to be alcoholic or an addict, if you look at that in terms of our diagnostic, it is not a black and white diagnosis. And so I think you're exactly right in saying there is the line. And in a clinical standpoint, the line is if you're having issues in relationships because of. You're having issues with your job because of. If you're having issues and other interpersonal relations, if you get legal, you know, there has to kind of check all these in order to be an alcoholic. And that's actually something that I would do with clients back in the day of handing them kind of hey, this is what an outline. So is somebody that comes home and has a glass of wine every night after work is alcoholic? There's some people that say absolute yes.

Jennifer [00:04:25]:
Some people would say absolutely, absolutely no. And it's like, well is it impacting these areas?

Ashlee [00:04:30]:
Right.

Jennifer [00:04:30]:
And that is something that I think is so unique. Right? Because what might not impact somebody's vocational job for other people's that would have an impact on their job. And so it's navigate because you can.

Marian Crossgroves [00:04:43]:
Have a clinical diagnosis of these things. But for me, I had to analyze myself internally and be honest myself. That was the key point. My subconscious mind would want to fool myself. Like I don't have a drinking problem. If you had the problems I had or seen the things I did, you drink too, you know, just to numb it away. But it's when you can't stop. When those things start building up.

Marian Crossgroves [00:05:05]:
All those things that you talked about aren't sufficient enough to cause you to moderate or to stop. That's when, that's when you really need to look at it and see. Because a heavy hard drinker can look just like an alcoholic, you know, but to be an alcoholic, it's a whole different ballgame.

Jennifer [00:05:20]:
Well, I appreciate that self reflection piece that, you know, it has to come with like looking inward because you know, you could give people a piece of paper and say like will you check all these boxes? But if they're not looking at, they could give you all the reasons they're.

Marian Crossgroves [00:05:35]:
Not, you know, and believe box in, in themselves.

Ashlee [00:05:38]:
Believe it. Yes, they really do sometimes believe it. Right.

Jennifer [00:05:41]:
Would you be willing to share a little bit about what that self reflection looked like for you? What it to be on yourself look like?

Marian Crossgroves [00:05:48]:
Yes. And I have to say that those things that I had to self reflect had to do with how I coped with hard times all of my life. I mean that's really where it started. I'm a compartmentalized person. So when I go through things, I just want to put it in an imaginary box on an imaginary shelf and shove it way back there and pretend like it didn't happen because. Yes, way back. Because it really does. What I would say is, does it really matter today, like right here today? Does it matter that these things have happened to me? But the thing is I wasn't being honest with myself on all those issues.

Marian Crossgroves [00:06:24]:
And my hard things in life started early. You know, they, they started really early. I think those hard things as a child made me the police officer I am today. You know, the, the person that wanted to solve problems for people and, and not have them go down the same roads that I went down. It made me a good cop. Yeah. Yeah. And the more I'm around police officers that have gone through the journey of mental health wellness, you know, trying to get well and, and clean themselves out have the same attributes, you know, that things in their life weren't always the best.

Marian Crossgroves [00:06:57]:
You know, we didn't grow up in these perfect environments and then just wanted to be a police officer. Yeah, it happens, but not very often.

Ashlee [00:07:04]:
And I think you make that great point. I feel like we even. We've been talking today prior to recording. Right. And it's this notion of we often like to say that our childhood and things that happen don't really matter. Right. Like, right. Oh, it's not a big deal.

Ashlee [00:07:18]:
This is the present moment. I hear that all the time in my office.

Marian Crossgroves [00:07:21]:
Want to dig that up again?

Ashlee [00:07:23]:
Exactly. Right. Why would I. I'm fine now. And I get it. I do get that mindset. And it's really, really hard to sometimes one just even face and acknowledge that those things happen in your childhood. Right.

Ashlee [00:07:34]:
But then to do that work. Yeah, Right. And. But yet as a clinician, it's so important for us to say, well, it dictates why you do what you do. Right. Like, it can, and it can make us definitely kind of view life in different ways. And obviously without that, we don't learn and we don't grow as kids. That's just what it is.

Ashlee [00:07:52]:
We learn from our environment and the people that are raising us. Right. So it's really, really hard to not focus back in on that. I get a lot of shit, I'm going to be honest, from my first responders, when I go, when I try to get to their, like, you know, their past, they're always like, why do clinicians do that? You know, they give me a hard time. Such a cliche therapist, Ashlee. I'm like, well, let's work on it and let's see. And if you trust in me, you know, after lists, if it doesn't make a difference, then you can come back and give me that shit. But I think you a really, really great point in that.

Ashlee [00:08:21]:
And a lot of our first responders do not love to dive into that childhood.

Marian Crossgroves [00:08:24]:
No.

Jennifer [00:08:25]:
Well, and I think, you know, we were having this conversation last night. When we have an experience, I have client who is able to say, hey, I had happen in my childhood. And so there's like a, an openness about that which is amazing. You're recognizing, hey, there's some stuff that happened in my childhood that was ideal. But that's it. Like it's just a surface answer. And I love what you said about like how I was coping from then. And so it's again which is great when people are open and honest.

Jennifer [00:08:54]:
But again it's just like, well, how do those things impact you cope? How do those things impact how you the world? You know, there's all these things that can be really impactful for that and talking about it doesn't build a to change this. I really wish I could. And yet I think it's powerful. Look and see that is makes sense on how to respond in that, you know, compartmental A lot of people including myself at times and there can be some healthy compartment in life. There absolutely can be. I think sometimes therapy can be quick to put stuff as good and bad instead of recognize like good and bad.

Ashlee [00:09:29]:
Right.

Jennifer [00:09:30]:
How do you feel like you cope?

Marian Crossgroves [00:09:31]:
Different now I can listen to outside people telling me how I'm responding to something. I can. Somebody says, well you don't look right. Are you okay? Or why did you respond in this way? Or that's not your norm. And instead of getting defensive and feeling judged, I can actually then say oh wow, they're noticing something in me. What am I feeling like the cause of these things are and kind of self reflect in a manner that's not so judgmental because that's me. I beat myself up all the time. I'm my own worst critic.

Marian Crossgroves [00:10:02]:
It's like I have a judge, a jury in my head that this. That keeps finding myself guilty and sentencing myself to all of this negativity over and over and over. You know, there's no reason to feel negative about stuff. There's. All we have to do is make slight changes in life. In fact, that's why I think we're here. I think we're here to use these experiences that are catalysts for growth, these rough spots to send us in a slightly different trajectory. I don't have to do a 180 immediately.

Marian Crossgroves [00:10:32]:
I just have to do a little bit different and then see how that works out and a little bit different after that until I can finally. I eventually add those up and it is a 180. You know, I. I can see how to fix these things in life instead of trying to numb them or push them back on that Shel or ignore them and just keep trudging forward.

Jennifer [00:10:51]:
You know, I appreciate that reflection of when often I need to be 100 need to be 180. I just need to be 100 instead of recognizing what those, what they really do.

Marian Crossgroves [00:11:00]:
Right. And sometimes people outside of us can see them faster than we can see them.

Ashlee [00:11:04]:
You know, I think a lot of the times. Right. And that's for any one of us at any given time.

Marian Crossgroves [00:11:07]:
Yeah.

Ashlee [00:11:08]:
Just because I'm a clinician does not mean that does not happen to me too. Like people are able to identify things. It's because it's harder to see it. It's harder to self reflect for sure. So when I, I want to make sure that our listeners here kind of get. I don't want to put you on the spot with your background story, like the full story, because that's up to you and what you want to share. But when did you or how long did you go before you recognize like, hey, I might need to make some changes.

Marian Crossgroves [00:11:32]:
I might need to decades, I. Decade before I realized I needed a change. And I don't mind telling some of my background story. And here, here's the thing. I had a very significant childhood trauma. So when I had great parents, I mean, they raised us good. My mom was my moral compass. She stayed home and she made sure that we did things right in life, you know, and they made us happy and did all the good things.

Marian Crossgroves [00:11:59]:
But when I was seven, I was brutally attacked by a random person. And I, I'm a survivor of that. But when I went to the hospital and I had surgery, I had a head injury and I had been sexually assaulted. And I tried to tell my mom all these things. My mom told me I was safe. My mom told me that it was going to be okay, that everything was fine. And because of the head trauma, she. Who knows at 7 how I even explained that.

Marian Crossgroves [00:12:25]:
But she said due to the head trauma, I was having these nightmares and that it was all okay. And my mom did the best she could at that moment. Whether she knew it or didn't know it or I wasn't making any sense. My mom kept me safe and protected. But because I was not heard, I was alone with that hurt. Because I had no outlet for it. I, I kept that inside. And it consequently made me feel like I didn't fit in anywhere.

Marian Crossgroves [00:12:53]:
I, I felt like if. If I was lying to myself that this event occurred because it was a. There was a story, you know what I mean, that I, I fell in the cement and hurt my head and all these things. If that was true and not what I was thinking it was, then what kind of person am I You know, I don't deserve this family. I don't deserve to have this life. I felt like I didn't fit in anywhere and I was alone with my pain. I mean, that was it. And it was very awkward.

Marian Crossgroves [00:13:17]:
And that went on for years of me feeling this way, even though I was safe and protected with this beautiful family.

Ashlee [00:13:23]:
Right, right.

Marian Crossgroves [00:13:24]:
And it went on for years. And the solution to that, that solution that took that, that weirdness away was alcohol. I remember being a young teen and we all got together at my, my parents house, lake house, and they were all, you know, at somebody else's. And so we all got together, we were mixing stuff from the liquor cabinet and everybody take a. And go. Oh, you know, that was, that was crazy. I drank it like a fish. I drank it until I was throwing up, pass out on the floor with the room spinning.

Marian Crossgroves [00:13:53]:
But the whole time that I was drinking that, thinking, oh my gosh, I'm comfortable in my own skin. Yeah, for the first time ever, I feel like I'm okay. And I'm not saying I was an alcoholic at that point. At that point, alcohol was my solution and I didn't use it all the time. And the opportunity wasn't there until later in life. But I knew how that made me feel. You know, that was my go to when things got bad. It was because I didn't feel comfortable in my own skin.

Marian Crossgroves [00:14:18]:
There's two ways my life could have gone. I could have gone on to feel uncomfortable in every living situation and not been a productive member of society and you know, it's not gotten a good job and, and kind of stayed in the downtrodden way of life. But instead I decided to full bore go, you know what I mean? Like my. Because my parents instilled that in me. Right. You're a success in life of what you make of it, so you need to do this thing. Yeah. You know, and so that drive for success was on based on what they gave me, but again, never feeling like I deserved it.

Ashlee [00:14:49]:
You know, what I think is really crucial to point out here is how those negative thoughts towards yourself from an event that you could not control manifest. I don't think people take enough time to stop to realize that when we go through something as traumatic as that, how we turn inward. Right. Like we just hear these traumatic events and from the outside, as I think we all make our own judgments or what have you, but how that manifested for you, how you turn that inward so much and you're like, I don't even want to be in My own skin. Right. And not enough people stop to realize that this is what happens.

Marian Crossgroves [00:15:22]:
Yeah.

Ashlee [00:15:22]:
Right. This is what leads. Because I think we also. You are extremely resilient and the path you took was incredible. But we do see so many people take that other path. But how quickly when all you're feeding yourself are these negative thoughts like that, that. Yeah, right. And I think that's important, especially because we have a lot of first responders that listen to this.

Ashlee [00:15:39]:
If it's not them, the people you work with in your communities. Right. Like, being aware of that. I. I thought you just put that so perfectly. I couldn't. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I need to. Well, I learn from you every time I see you.

Ashlee [00:15:50]:
But yeah, I'm like, I. I'm like, I. The way you just said that, I'm like, how. Beautifully said that. Because it's hard. It's hard to articulate that, how that can manifest for somebody.

Marian Crossgroves [00:16:00]:
And it doesn't have to be a serious event. Like what happened to me being alone with your pain, period, as a child.

Ashlee [00:16:07]:
Right.

Marian Crossgroves [00:16:07]:
Because think about it. You're born with a clean slate, aren't you? Like, you don't have all these things. Now, I'm explaining this in a cop terminology. Okay.

Ashlee [00:16:15]:
Y', all, we love. They're all gonna love it still. Probably like, thank goodness, finally, you mental.

Marian Crossgroves [00:16:20]:
Health professionals and you're breaking down of the brain. But I think of the brain like a computer system, okay. So it uses past experience to predict what I'm going to do in the current moment to keep me safe. Like, the brain keeps me safe. So my egoic brain puts all these boundaries on it. Like, I'm going to keep people at arm's length or I'm going to judge them before they judge me. I'm going to do all these things to keep myself safe from these events that we're alone with as a child. And it could be something small.

Marian Crossgroves [00:16:47]:
It could be a divorce. I say small. These aren't small. But a divorce or having somebody in your family pass away as a young child, all these things that we're alone with our hurt and we feel like we can't share with anybody can cause the same thing that happened to me. And if I never share those things, that's when I have to find an outside source to quell them. And if it's substances, it's a long road. Like, it's a long, hard road. Especially when you feel like you have your life on track.

Marian Crossgroves [00:17:14]:
I. I didn't fall into that downtrodden form. I was going, I was, I personally was going to make a success out of my life, you know, like. Yeah, but here's. I gave 110 at everything. But the problem with that is there's no such thing as 110. Right. 100 is a full circle.

Marian Crossgroves [00:17:31]:
Like that's it, like that's the whole thing. But, but because I, I wanted to give 110, anything I did to myself was nothing like I was in the army. So if I could max my PT test, I would fit in, you know. Oh, but I could have extended scale max, you know, I could have done more sit ups. So anything I did, if I, I got on a SRT team in the army, the first female ever to do that, and I didn't do it because I was a female. I just, you know, like you, I could do this. And for, yeah, for once I would fit in with the rest of the soldiers. I would be a soldier.

Marian Crossgroves [00:18:01]:
But instead it wasn't good enough. You know what I mean? Like I, I felt like I could have done something better. The guys outran me or did this, the shot better than me or whatever. But the whole time I'm, I got on the team, you know, I did it. I, I never still felt like I fit in until I would go with the guys and have a couple drinks and then I would be one of them. You know, to me that's what that warm blanket was. But I didn't recognize that. It wasn't like it was a go to immediate, but it felt like the same.

Marian Crossgroves [00:18:28]:
The problem with coping with alcohol for such a long period of time is it's actually a bodily dysfunction. I damaged my liver and pancreas to the point where it didn't get rid of the byproducts like normal, normal people take a drink and through breath or urine or whatever, they, they get rid of these extra chemicals in there where mine retain those and it causes a craving, a craving for more alcohol. And so my true intention is to go out with the guys and drink a beer, you know, after work or whatever one go home to my family, you know, and do what I'm supposed to do. But when I drink that one, that craving builds and next thing you know I'm two or three or drinking with them and then going home and drinking six more. And that took like I said, decades to build up to that point. But that's where I was it that that craving for alcohol is, is not something that you can see. So if I'm allergic to strawberries, I Might break out in a rash when I eat strawberries. So you think, oh man.

Marian Crossgroves [00:19:23]:
See the rash. But a craving, no one told me that when I was young. And so I didn't recognize it, you know.

Ashlee [00:19:28]:
Yeah.

Marian Crossgroves [00:19:29]:
And then you talk about the, the brain part of it. I built a neuro bypass in my brain to solve all solutions with alcohol. So if I was happy, I wanted to, I didn't want to get too happy, you know, out of control. So I would numb it. I would want to numb it with alcohol. That'd be my immediate thought. If I was celebrating something, I wanted to do it with alcohol. If I was sad about something, I wanted to numb it with alcohol.

Marian Crossgroves [00:19:51]:
So these neuro bypasses that, that we build with these solutions are like learning how to ride a bike, right? So when you first get on a bike, you can't pedal, you fall over, but you eventually learn how to do that and you build a neuro bypass in your brain how to ride a bike. So if you haven't ridden a bike in 10 years, can't you just get on it and ride it?

Ashlee [00:20:09]:
Yes, you can. I learned that in Berlin of all places.

Marian Crossgroves [00:20:12]:
That neuro bypass never goes away. Neither is the alcohol one. So for me wanting to cope with everything with alcohol and I to get out of that mindset, I need to build different. I need to learn how to use the emotions properly as a guidance system rather than trying to stuff them into a box and put them on itself, you know. And again, who, unless you're around clinicians or go to therapy who heard about these neuro bypasses things, you know. But your brain due to neuroplasticity can change, you know, it molds into these new ways to cope with things. But that original one doesn't go away, you know, So I have to do things things to. To be able to cope with this in a different way.

Ashlee [00:20:53]:
Yes. Yeah. I'm smiling so big because when I present I always talk about that process, right. Neuroplasticity. And my, my men and women are always like here she goes again with that word, with that word. And like, but we can do it play doh. You know, I'm like, I'm just trying to, you know. So I'm smiling because I guarantee they're going to listen to this and be like, oh, that's Ashlee playing out well.

Jennifer [00:21:15]:
And I said the younger and I think childhood and adolescent to try things limits might include alcohol. And I do think culture still a lot of around outside culture utilize that. So those are norms as well as born Slate. And when we're little and things happen, we don't have the whole development, no, it's not my fault, or no, I can share how to even have the words to express something that's happened to us. And so it can really be just like this layered thing that happens.

Marian Crossgroves [00:21:46]:
Yeah.

Jennifer [00:21:47]:
And I, I don't disagree with me here, but I do think though work to find different coping skills and I think substances, alcohol, it is a quick time and that's why we utilize. And I think you're right. Like I, I don't think that he's had a bad day and they go have a drink and they're an alcoholic. But at the same time there is this line that sometimes can cross and what is happening with our brain when are happening?

Marian Crossgroves [00:22:13]:
Because me feeling like I never fit in it, it continues on. And I have not talked to a first responder that doesn't say the same thing I do. Like, so when we show up to the child that drowned in a pool, you know, and, and our common sense brain tells us that child's been in there for a while. Even though I pull that child out and I, and I do life saving measures and they don't make it, I, I know in my rational brain that that was not my fault. You know what I mean? Like I didn't leave him in the pool. It wasn't the way I did cpr. My subconscious mind says, what mother lets a child drown in a pool? When I say it out loud, it sounds stupid, you know, like, no, you didn't do that. You, you did all the things you're supposed to do.

Marian Crossgroves [00:22:56]:
But that subconscious mind, those things that we carry around, that don't make any sense, but they just lurk in the back of your brain, are powerful. We're supposed to be above the rest of society because we enforce the law. We're supposed to adhere to the law perfectly. None of us are perfect. I fly down the road and look at my speedometer thinking, oh gosh, I got a slow, let alone misusing alcohol. Having that one or two drinks to take the edge off with the guys by yourself, whatever is fine. But when we overshoot that, then that guilt and you know, I'm supposed to be better than this. I'm not supposed to fall down the stairs or have a fight with my spouse or whatever the case may be, that was maybe brought on by that misuse of alcohol that one time.

Marian Crossgroves [00:23:37]:
So that guilt, shame and remorse is a vicious side cycle. Right.

Jennifer [00:23:40]:
You know, which, that we can do as humans. A lot of Resistance and a lot of pushback and a lot of hiding and guilt is such a. And if there is this pressure, it's like, what are we really having to.

Marian Crossgroves [00:23:52]:
Really work and can't you. I know you guys both have. Your parents were in law enforcement all your life. Your dad or mom, for some people come home and they're acting kind of distant or grouchy or whatever. It's hard for kids not to internalize that, you know, and. And make it about themselves and be alone with their hurt too, you know? But the whole time, actually, your. Your dads that were law enforcement were trying to protect you and not. Not tell you about those critical incidents.

Ashlee [00:24:19]:
100. I always talk about. You know, there was only two times. I mean, he was, what, 29 years, and there was only two times he came home, maybe even one that was really apparent to me where he hugged me and was like, don't ever take our. Our fighting or something as an extreme. And then I found out later what had happened and. And things like that. But what.

Ashlee [00:24:39]:
My dad was notorious for, like, coming home and, like, watching TV but zoning out completely.

Marian Crossgroves [00:24:43]:
Yeah.

Ashlee [00:24:43]:
So I could be like, dad, dad, dad, and tell him my whole life story, and he would be like, huh? But not even look my way. Right. Like, And I don't think he knew he was doing it, but that was just his way of like, well, I'm with you guys. Yeah, right. Like, I'm hanging out. We're watching tv. Right. We're doing this and that.

Ashlee [00:25:00]:
But yet he was disengaged. Like, I'm sure he's gonna listen to this and be like, was. But he was, you know, and I feel like it is hard as a kid sometimes to be like, okay, is that me? He just doesn't want to listen to me talk, but. Because as a kid, you don't know any better. So you do internalize that very quickly, very, very quick. So I love that you hit on that as well.

Marian Crossgroves [00:25:19]:
And then as the. As the law enforcement person, then you feel guilty. Then you want to make up for it maybe by being too nice and giving presents and doing all the things, you know, because you weren't home enough or. Or you were distracted or the opposite, pulling away and there's a wedge, you know.

Ashlee [00:25:33]:
Yeah, absolutely. I do hear that a lot from our. Our children of first responders. So that's something that's super important as well. And it's not only. I guess I want to also note here because we're talking right now, right? Like, incredible, powerful story about alcohol but experiences in my own, like, family life and things like that. Like, it's not only alcohol. Like, I feel like pain medicines that are given.

Ashlee [00:25:56]:
Right. By doctors when our first responders get injured and all these things, they develop. Right. So we have all this trauma. We have all the. We may not be well, but then we have something like that transpire, and, man, life just spirals out of control fast sometimes.

Marian Crossgroves [00:26:08]:
Right.

Ashlee [00:26:09]:
You don't have a way to catch it. Right. And so then we're looking at things a little bit differently. And I want to note that because I think a lot of our listeners, while they're going to absolutely relate, because alcohol is, I think, our number one in terms of first responders and the normalcy around it. But, like, there's. There's also so many other things that I've come across while working with first responders that it's just like this coping mechanism. If I can find it, I'm gonna do it.

Marian Crossgroves [00:26:31]:
Yeah. And it could. It could be anything, Right. You know, it's not just alcohol and substance addiction, right?

Ashlee [00:26:37]:
Yeah.

Marian Crossgroves [00:26:37]:
Like. Yeah, yeah. And that's a huge one.

Ashlee [00:26:39]:
Huge one.

Marian Crossgroves [00:26:40]:
And if people hide it so you don't. It's not in your face. So you think you're the only one spending money?

Ashlee [00:26:45]:
You don't have spending money. Oof.

Marian Crossgroves [00:26:47]:
Yes.

Ashlee [00:26:48]:
That's a big one.

Marian Crossgroves [00:26:49]:
Yes. And then you feel like you have to work all these overtime jobs, jobs to make up for the loss of income that you're spending or that you get used to living in this house. It's above your means. Or driving these cars that you can't afford. And. But you ever notice when you get one of those things like, I want that car, I want that car, and you get it, and then not even three days later, it feels normal again. So you're seeking. You're.

Marian Crossgroves [00:27:11]:
It's a dopamine hit that you're just constantly going after that never stops. And that's what alcohol is, you know, like, that's. That's what it is. You just keep seeking and seeking and seeking. And what used to work to make me feel numb or feel like I fit in all of a sudden is this grand, giant thing where it used to just be a couple drinks, you know, it just escalates and you don't even realize it is hard.

Jennifer [00:27:33]:
And I see that often with clients. The. The Runway run, you know, what we were using to get that plane off the ground, you know, that gets shorter, and, like, you're having to escalate and escalate more until Again, it's. It feels so out of control.

Marian Crossgroves [00:27:46]:
And as alcohol spiraled my life, it kind of did it incrementally. So conditions in my life got worse and worse on a slow basis. So think of an elevator going down slowly. So conditions in my life would get worse. Like, I'd never. I would never drink in the morning. Are you kidding me? Like, that's. That's an alcoholic.

Marian Crossgroves [00:28:06]:
They got to get up and drink. Oh, but I'm off, and I'm watching Food Network, and they drink mimosas in the morning. So why was it.

Ashlee [00:28:14]:
What was that. What's her name? Hoda? Good Morning America.

Marian Crossgroves [00:28:20]:
Champagne.

Ashlee [00:28:21]:
Popping the champagne all the time.

Marian Crossgroves [00:28:23]:
Yeah. So what's wrong with that? So that's incrementally lowering my standards. I could wrap my mind around those things. It's when alcohol totally took over my life, and that elevator dropped like it was broken. Like the cable broke and dropped to the basement all at once. That's when I realized that I had a problem. But all these other things kept happening. It's like the universe kept trying to show me that I was having this problem, and the.

Marian Crossgroves [00:28:46]:
The problems would escalate little by little. Thankfully, it wasn't some legal issues or I didn't drink and drive and crash or get a dui, but it was other areas of my life that slippery slope came in. You know, here I am, an ethical, moral person, but I start making excuses at work about things or why something happened. Excuses of lies. Little white lies, I used to call them. Improvements on the truth. I was married, and I didn't want to tell my spouse how much money we were spending. And so I would.

Marian Crossgroves [00:29:15]:
I would try to hide the checkbook, even though I was. We were spending it together. I would. I would make these improvements on the truth in all aspects of my life. How to discipline the kids, how. How much. Like I said, the finances. But it also came with my alcohol.

Marian Crossgroves [00:29:28]:
So we'd drink a couple beers every night, and that would be fine, but then that craving would kick off in myself, and I'd go to clean the kitchen and slam a beer and shove that beer can at the bottom of the trash can, or go out to the garage and get a couple warm ones out of the case and shove them in the back of the ones in the refrigerator so that he wouldn't notice they were missing. Those improvements on the truth, which were lies, caused a huge wedge between me and my spouse, and we wound up getting divorced. And it was all alcoholism, the whole thing. And I. It crept into all areas of my life. I wasn't showing up to work drunk, but I would get home and I would, I would drink more and more. I would. I had an office job eventually and I would move my hours up so that I could get home before the kids got home.

Marian Crossgroves [00:30:10]:
I told myself to give myself a mental break, but really it was to. To get that ease and comfort of, of that first drink before I got there so I could breathe again before the kids walked in the door. But then I would. I switched to hard alcohol. Easier to. I would say I would. I could drink it a little bit faster and feel better for the evening and not have to drink so much because those beer cans, who makes those little tiny cans? I think to myself, they were just everywhere. And so I switched to hard alcohol to find myself drinking more and more.

Marian Crossgroves [00:30:40]:
It wasn't less and less like I thought it was going to do to the point where I would be at home and I was not a barfly, so I must not be an alcoholic. I wasn't homeless under the bridge. I was at home with my kids doing homework, watching a little TV and making dinner. I would. Now, this didn't happen every day, but I would. We would do our homework and we'd be sitting in the living room and I think, you know, it's almost time to make dinner. Next commercial break, that's what I'll go do. To look up what felt like one commercial breakaway and see the dirty dishes in this thing.

Marian Crossgroves [00:31:10]:
And dinner. I made dinner. We ate already. Like, I, I must have a brain tumor. I mean, I 1000% thought that I had a brain tumor and something was wrong with me, but I didn't dare go to the doctor, you know, but subconsciously I probably knew that it was the alcohol as the thing. But consciously, I could have passed a lie detector test to say I didn't have a problem, you know. Yeah, it just crept in that much and those reasoning skills were gone. I was, I was lying to myself because I was divorced by this time.

Marian Crossgroves [00:31:38]:
I mean, there was, there's. There was nobody to lie to but me.

Ashlee [00:31:41]:
Right.

Marian Crossgroves [00:31:41]:
Like, it made no sense.

Jennifer [00:31:43]:
None. Well, and I appreciate that ability to say, like, wasn't homeless underneath a bridge like that. There is high functioning and alcoholism still happening. People are still showing up for jobs and cooking dinner and things like that. And yet, you know, we can be in this cycle of addiction and like you said, hiding it.

Marian Crossgroves [00:32:00]:
It is.

Jennifer [00:32:00]:
What do you feel like was so helpful for you in terms of that ability to be honest with yourself or.

Marian Crossgroves [00:32:07]:
I had an incident Work that I needed in my mind to cover up. I had by this time it was like I didn't even want to pay my bills. Like I had money in the bank, but I was waiting until the electricity was about to be turned off to, to pay it, or looking out the window every day at the car I had with a, it had a loan on it like most people do, but, but not paying it and thinking any day they're going to repossess it. Boy, that might be easier not to, you know, just to, to chill out, not have to worry about that stuff. It wasn't like I intentionally let my truck get repossessed, but it's like I put that on a shelf with all those critical incidents from work with those, you know, the, the dead kids and the, the people in wrecks and the death and the domestics. I just put them on this imaginary shelf and shoved them back on there along with my childhood. Just didn't want to deal with it. Well, I had by this point, let my truck get repossessed.

Marian Crossgroves [00:32:54]:
Like why I was driving my work car to and from work. I'd stop at the grocery store. Who needs to go out anyway? It was an excuse to stay home and drink is what it was. You know, I didn't need to go out and take the kids places. We were fine. I had a backyard playground and we did all the things where we lived, so who cares? I didn't want work to realize that I did have that. Enough cognizance of my mind to think if they knew that I didn't have my own car, that there would be issue. So I lied about something to cover that up and went on with my life.

Marian Crossgroves [00:33:23]:
When I told myself, you know, this might be a little much, like I really need to chill out like I used to when I was in the army. I could go to the field for a month or when I was pregnant, not drink for a year, year and not worry about it. I need to chill out a little bit with the alcohol is what I told myself, because it's a daily thing now. So I, I, I told that white lie or improvement on the truth at work to cover up what was going on at home, to tell myself to chill out, to go home and drink just like I had for months, if not years before, without a thought in my mind, I went home and drank without even thinking about chilling out. Didn't dawn on me until I passed out in my chair right that night, woke up the next morning, got put my uniform on, went in work, I was standing There at the photocopier. And I thought to myself, oh, Marian, you drank. You promised yourself you weren't going to do that. I knew then there was a problem.

Marian Crossgroves [00:34:10]:
I knew that lie that I told at work hit me like a ton of bricks. In fact, that whole shelf of imaginary things, all those things, all those traumas that I was helpless, hopeless and not good enough about that were on that shelf, came crashing down in my head. And I knew I had a problem. I knew I wanted to drink that moment to cover that up. Like, there was no that. That was my only solution. And that was a good thing. That's what we call a bottom, right? Like, that's it.

Marian Crossgroves [00:34:37]:
I felt like I was in quicksand and I was sinking. And there was. As hard as I was trying to pull out of it, there was no pulling out. And I knew that I couldn't solve it myself. But it takes that pain, right? That pain that's not going away. My solution wasn't working anymore. You know, I couldn't drink it away like it was still there. And so I said I needed help.

Marian Crossgroves [00:34:58]:
I went to a 30 day treatment center. That's hard to do as a first responder. You know, you see, you hear all these people you. You deal with on the street that are. Are going to treatment, you know, and here it's me. All these people that I've judged for all these years and, you know, rolled my eyes when I had to go there five times. I'm going to where they go. But I'm telling you, I needed that.

Marian Crossgroves [00:35:19]:
I needed that 30 days to breathe.

Ashlee [00:35:22]:
Yeah.

Marian Crossgroves [00:35:22]:
Yes, absolutely. To show me that I can survive this without alcohol, that I. That I'm not the only one that goes through this. It affects everybody from Park Avenue to park bench. Like, I was in there with doctors and nurses and judges and all kinds of people and homeless people and work and laborers and in every walk of life.

Jennifer [00:35:45]:
It does discriminate, doesn't it?

Marian Crossgroves [00:35:46]:
It doesn't, no, not at all. So I conceded to my innermost self that I had a problem. Went there and I could breathe. The. The next step was, though, I had to leave there. Just hide here forever. Like, this is working for me. Can't I just stay? Yeah.

Marian Crossgroves [00:36:02]:
But no, I had to get back to it. I had to. I had to leave there and figure out what that even meant. I had a friend pick me up. I went to a treatment center a couple hours from her. She picked me up and I thought she was bringing me home. And I didn't know how to Navigate this thing. And she didn't bring me home.

Marian Crossgroves [00:36:18]:
She brought me to the AA hall.

Ashlee [00:36:20]:
Yeah.

Marian Crossgroves [00:36:21]:
In my hometown, where I worked, where I policed, where I had arrested people for the same problem I had.

Ashlee [00:36:29]:
Yeah.

Marian Crossgroves [00:36:30]:
You know, and I, I was sitting in the truck and I was like, I have to get out. She goes, oh, perfect time for meeting. Yes. You need to go in there right now. And I was like, do that. But here's the thing. I knew. I'm glad she did it that way.

Marian Crossgroves [00:36:40]:
I'm glad she didn't warn me. I'm glad she just did it. Because if I had not done that, what. Where would I find a solution once I got home? No. AA is not for everybody. There's a million ways to get sober. But for me, I can't think of any other way to do it. I had a problem with organized religion.

Marian Crossgroves [00:36:58]:
I thought religion was for weak people. My parents told me how to make a success out of my life. I grew up in thinking that God was wrathful and punished us and we were going to hell if we sinned or did. Weren't good enough. So to me, I believed that there was something out there that was in charge of all things in the universe. But it wasn't for me. So I had to set that off to the side and I had to figure out what that looked like in my world. And a did it for me.

Marian Crossgroves [00:37:23]:
That's what I needed to do. Walking into that room, though, as a police officer of at that time over 10 years, was probably the hardest, one of the hardest things I've ever met. I walked in there and I bawled the first three meetings I went to and I sat in the corner and I just listened. But I heard my. I heard my exact emotional emotions that surrounded my life coming from these people. It wasn't the details, you know, it was, it was the, the similarities in there and, and how we handle life. And I listened to their solution, and their solution was this 12 step program. You know, these people that I had arrested or dealt with over and over loved me until I could love myself.

Marian Crossgroves [00:38:05]:
Because they were in there for a reason. Court papers are not. They were in. They could forge papers. They can do that.

Ashlee [00:38:10]:
Yeah.

Marian Crossgroves [00:38:11]:
They were in there to find a solution.

Ashlee [00:38:12]:
Yeah.

Marian Crossgroves [00:38:13]:
And it was the same solutions provided to me. And I, I couldn't, I couldn't have asked for a better way to do it. You know, it definitely it, without a doubt, it was a foundation of, of my sobriety.

Jennifer [00:38:24]:
That's so beautiful.

Ashlee [00:38:25]:
Such a powerful tool. Well, and can you talk A little.

Jennifer [00:38:27]:
Bit about how you use that, that helps you so much.

Marian Crossgroves [00:38:31]:
So I actually got out of law enforcement. I, I had to leave. I mean, I, I had told that lie. You can't have a police officer on your staff that is lied about something. Can't go to court then and you know, like, and, and be expected to tell the truth. So I, I moved on. I was just in mainstream society. I had to learn how to take all those things that I, things that I did in life that I didn't live up to my own standards and clean them up.

Marian Crossgroves [00:38:54]:
So I, I thought of myself like a, a trash can, right? I had to take that trash can of my life, of all the gross stuff that's in there and I had a dump it out. I didn't throw it away. I took all that trash and I, I, with the help of a sponsor in the 12 step program, I got to dump that stuff out, take a scrub brush, not only clean up that trash, but clean the inside of that can, which is me, and then take all that cleaned up trash and put it back in me. Because we can't get rid of the things we did in life, but we can clean them up and I can make amends and try to fix things. I, it's not apologies. It's how can I fix, how can I fix how I wronged you? What can I do to make this better? Actionable things that helped me clean up that trash, helped me to use my past experience to help somebody else figure out that they've had the same issue and how they can clean up their mess of their life and use it to the good to help others. I had to figure out that I am not in charge of my life. I am the one that can do the next right thing over and over, but the outcomes come up to something greater than me and that's where that religious piece gets, gets muddied in there.

Marian Crossgroves [00:39:58]:
I had to put religion to the side and, and just say there is something out here bigger than me that is running the universe. It's no different than going to court, right? I put a case together, I do my best job over and over to put that case together. It's not up to me what the jury does or what the judge does. I have to let go of that control of the outcomes. I'm not in the outcome business anymore. And, and know that there's a bigger picture. Why did these things happen to me? Why did that event as a child happen to me? So I could be mad at God or whatever you Want to call that that thing that runs the universe. But really why would.

Marian Crossgroves [00:40:32]:
I don't need to be mad at God. These are things, I think those catalysts in life that help us move that little trajectory over are the things that make it good. Right?

Ashlee [00:40:41]:
Yeah.

Marian Crossgroves [00:40:41]:
I had this thing happen to me and I felt like I wasn't good enough for my mother. To be honest with you. That's really. It wasn't the assault. That's why I say it doesn't matter what happened to you. I felt like I didn't live up to my mother's standards. You know, like if I believe that this bad thing happened to me and she does it, what kind of a child lies about that? In my mind that's what made me not feel like I fit in. And so I had to realize that that wasn't true.

Marian Crossgroves [00:41:03]:
My mom had her own points of view. I have my own points of view. I. I just need to figure out those things in life. And maybe that's what that event was supposed to do for me.

Ashlee [00:41:11]:
Yeah.

Marian Crossgroves [00:41:12]:
So I can figure these things out in life because I don't regret that happening me now. Like I could have live in is a victim or in bitterness forever about that. But instead I chose to use that as a springboard to bring me to where I am in life. To help other people realize that they don't have to live in victim mentality either. And that's how I can police now. I love it. I don't have to sit there judge somebody like why are you doing this over and over. Just give them that little bit of hope that those things can show them the proper way to live.

Marian Crossgroves [00:41:41]:
Which is unconditional love of everything. I'm never going to be perfect at that is the thing. Right. So I can unconditionally love maybe my kids. But do we like I do unconditionally love my kids. But I put expectations on them.

Ashlee [00:41:51]:
Yeah.

Marian Crossgroves [00:41:51]:
You know, do good or I might be mad or I'm not going to give you your allowance or I'm going to take your cell phone away. That's life. Right. But that is not what my higher power has for me. You know, my. My higher power loves me unconditionally. It's my self will that puts all that judgment on myself.

Ashlee [00:42:07]:
Right.

Marian Crossgroves [00:42:07]:
Of these things. And that's what I had to learn. I'm in control of my emotions and. And what surrounds them and how I choose to apply them. I can be sad or angry. But then how can I balance that out with the wisdom to unconditionally love it anyway. I don't love the fact that I was assaulted as a child, but I have to try. I have to try to see the good that came out of that, you know, and that's to me, the essence of life.

Jennifer [00:42:31]:
Well, also I think that's the essence.

Marian Crossgroves [00:42:33]:
Yes.

Jennifer [00:42:34]:
You know, and like you said to. To finally have to sit in all things that we.

Marian Crossgroves [00:42:38]:
Yeah.

Jennifer [00:42:39]:
You know, and that. That's your work. You know, that's the work they've done. And I think it's beautiful how you. It's such a fire in you that you want to give to other people as well. You wanted to catch of others experience.

Marian Crossgroves [00:42:49]:
I do.

Jennifer [00:42:49]:
And their struggle.

Marian Crossgroves [00:42:50]:
Not only the people that maybe that I deal with on the street, but also in the first responder community. Because we're. We're all in the same boat. We. We want to put on this armor. You know what I mean? Like, we're this rough, tough thing and nothing could break through my armor. But that armor is rusty. It needs to be cleaned up.

Marian Crossgroves [00:43:07]:
You know, we need to know when to take that armor off and be vulnerable and hat and feel the emotions versus having to wear it at work. Yeah. To survive those events and never take it off. I know. Never take it off. So how do you feed yourself? How do you take care of yourself when you're walking around in this rusty armor?

Jennifer [00:43:24]:
Well, and I think that that's. Ashlee and I. A little bit of our compassion here and our love and our work with the podcast is like, how is it when there's somebody at the dinner table or with armor, you know, like, how does that impact, you know, how do they function or not? And of course our goal is for that take that armor off and be there with it.

Ashlee [00:43:44]:
Is if there was to. I don't want to. Because we could keep you for 20 years for sure. Because your story is so powerful. And I. I really can't wait for people to hear this episode. And if there is somebody right now who is listening and is struggling in any kind, you know what I mean? Like, is there any words of advice that you would want to give to somebody?

Marian Crossgroves [00:44:02]:
I would say if you are struggling, especially with substance abuse, reach out. Here's somebody else's story, not just mine. There's online first responder meetings that you can go and listen to everybody's story and if you can connect or resonate with what they're saying, start investigating that with yourself, with somebody who's been through it, because that's the key. It almost seems like judgment when it Comes from the outside when people are pointing things out to you. But if you can find someone who's been through the fire already that you can relate to and identify with, start listening to them and see. Because it's all self reflection.

Ashlee [00:44:38]:
Yeah.

Marian Crossgroves [00:44:38]:
Like you guys mean well. Therapy is needed. Therapy is so needed to, for me to realize these things in myself. But sometimes we feel judged when we go in there.

Ashlee [00:44:46]:
Sure.

Marian Crossgroves [00:44:47]:
You need a combination of both. Somebody who's been through it themselves along with you mental health professionals that can point out these subconscious mind things. Because that's the key too is to just to be able to see what the problem is. And you guys have all the training for that.

Jennifer [00:45:00]:
I do think that's a beautiful 10 of the 12 steps is how you give back to that to help somebody. You know, I just especially.

Marian Crossgroves [00:45:07]:
And it's such a safe zone because no one is going to leave there and talk about what you just shared or what you've been through. We've all been. Yeah, we have.

Jennifer [00:45:14]:
Anything else that would be to share before we get wrap up that we.

Marian Crossgroves [00:45:18]:
Don'T like to admit? Fear. His first responders. What we're not afraid of anything. I'll run into a, I'll run into the gunfire. Yeah, but fear is healthy. It's a healthy emotion to recognize but transcend because that's what we do. Right. We have fear when there's gunshots.

Marian Crossgroves [00:45:33]:
We just run through it anyway. You're right. And so do that with your personal life. Get through those things. Yes. It doesn't just apply to work. Go through it, feel the pain, feel the emotions and get a conversation. Yes, absolutely.

Ashlee [00:45:50]:
Well, thank you so much for coming on today. I think that again, I know there's always these episodes where I'm like, uhoh, we're going to get hounded because people are going to want you now a lot marrying back on. And we can share some of that information if you're open to it, of course. And we can post it on our, our socials and things like that as well because I don't know, I know this is. Substance abuse was something that we, we knew we needed to start covering on this podcast. But to be honest, like I've learned, I've learned so much from you and, and, and I know Jennifer hasn't. So we were both like, well it has, has to come from Mary, has to come from Mary and it can't come from us. You know what I mean? And so honestly to have you here to, to listen again.

Ashlee [00:46:30]:
I can listen all day and continue to learn and just. I'm just so thankful, so.

Marian Crossgroves [00:46:34]:
Well, thank you for having me.

Ashlee [00:46:35]:
Yeah, absolutely. Jennifer, anything you want to wrap up with? I know. All right, well, you guys know the routine that when the call hits home, Jennifer and I are here for you, and we can't wait for the next episode.