Breaking the Stigma: Substance Abuse, Hope, and Resilience in First Responder Families

Ashlee [00:00:00]:
I do know a lot of first responders who struggle with substances and maybe they do get put in a situation where their job is on the line or they have lost their job and then they feel their identity is now completely gone. And I feel like her story of just like resilience and getting help, honestly. Right. Being so vulnerable to open up and get the help. She got all that back. And that's hope that I think sometimes someone just needs to hear.

Jennifer [00:00:26]:
Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer.

Ashlee [00:00:29]:
And I'm Ashlee.

Jennifer [00:00:30]:
And we're excited. It's just Ashlee and I today, no guest, but I think we were pretty intentional and it just being you and I today, we had such a great time getting to talk with Marian Crossgrove, who was on our last episode. So if you haven't heard that, please go listen this episode. Not like as much sense if you're not listening to Marian's episode. I Ashlee, you and I just talked about substance abuse, the power of Marianne's message, and I think kind of wanted to continue the conversation.

Ashlee [00:01:02]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think when we were planning all of this, we were like, we have to at some point talk about substance abuse and talk about why it's so prevalent within the first responder community, because substance abuse really does impact not only our first responders, but their families as well. And Marian's story is so powerful that she was the best person I think we could have had to start it off. And so it's important for both of us to circle back around and have the conversation.

Jennifer [00:01:28]:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Marian does do phenomenal in sharing her story, which it belongs to her. And I just really want to respect that. I think one thing that when listening, you know, you and I know Marian so well, and we just hopped into our conversation to just fill people in who have not had, are not as lucky to have met her in person, that she has returned to the first responder world. So she stepped away from a bit and from what she shares, you know, was really pursued to say, like, hey, you're really good in this career. And I think one thing, we talk a lot with first responders. It's such a calling. And that Marian's struggle with substance abuse did not let her calling not be her calling anymore.

Jennifer [00:02:13]:
Like, that she got to step away and heal and got to come back and into the first responder world. So I think that's important for people to know a part of her story as well.

Ashlee [00:02:22]:
I do think that's important because when I look at so many people that we run into. I do know a lot of first responders who struggle with substances and maybe they do get put in a situation where their job is on the line or they have lost their job and then they feel their identity is now completely gone. And I feel like her story of just like resilience and getting help, honestly. Right. Being so vulnerable to open up and get the help. She got all that back. And that's hope that I think sometimes someone just needs to hear. It doesn't have to always be gone.

Ashlee [00:02:54]:
I mean, every story is different, but it's that hope of, like, I can get help, I can get better, and I can maybe, you know, regain everything that I've had.

Jennifer [00:03:03]:
I mean, hope is the most powerful thing that I think I offer anyone in, you know, clinically and in a therapeutic setting. But also just in general, like, hope is a powerful thing. A lot of talk in the substance abuse world is rock bottom things like that. And wherever you're at, you have to have a belief that things can get better, it can get better. And that's a hard thing to navigate.

Ashlee [00:03:26]:
Yeah. So why do you think I'll kind of throw this question at you? I know we have been talking about it a little bit, but why? I guess in your clinical world or just personal world. Right. Like, we grew up with this. I know for a fact that alcohol specifically is a dang tradition in our family. Like, you drink, right? Like you go to football games, you go to baseball games, you go to music festivals and you're drinking and you're kind of looked at weird if you're not. But that was the same for all my uncles who are in law enforcement across the board. Right.

Ashlee [00:03:56]:
It's a very welcomed thing in first responder communities. In your opinion, like, why do you think substance abuse can happen so naturally amongst a first responder?

Jennifer [00:04:05]:
I mean, I think that's a really good question. I do think it is a little bit in the fiber of the career in terms of this is something that we do to, you know, blow off steam or this is what you do. You know, I just think it's a real accepted coping mechanism. I think a big part of it, and I think that is its own conversation too, in terms of, you know, obviously I think we're specifically talking about alcohol, but we'll use the, like, big term of substance abuse. And there's other things outside of. Of alcohol that people use. I think that's important to differentiate some, but I think our focus today will be alcohol. So I'm going to put that in, you know, I think obviously the culture and I think what we've talked about and how our conversation started about just what first responders support they need, and the conversation around mental health and like, we're in 2025.

Jennifer [00:05:02]:
I think they've made mountains move in some of those conversations. And yet you're looking at a career and a profession that's been around for centuries. And I think in terms of that, people utilize what they have. And I think a big part of that was alcohol. Again, if you think about a culture and you think about first responding culture, you know, culture is this kind of underlying wave that we all kind of ride together. And I think that, you know, alcohol can be seen as being used as the celebration and. And how quickly something that can be utilized to blow off steam, to celebrate can really say, well, this is the only thing that helps sleep. This is the only way I can really, in my brain to respond to.

Jennifer [00:05:53]:
I think of it as this thing that turns into abuse. It's the frog that gets boiled in the water. You know, we don't notice necessarily the change in temperature until we're cooked.

Ashlee [00:06:07]:
Yeah. I think you explained that so beautifully. And I really, really loved how you kind of went to this notion of, well, alcohol is the only thing that helps me sleep, and alcohol is the only thing that kind of numbs anything else. And I do hear that often. I hear that often in my office, too. Like when people are coming to get help and they're realizing maybe I am drinking too much. It really is this notion of it turns into everything we're feeling like we're not getting by ourselves. I feel like that's so important to recognize.

Ashlee [00:06:37]:
Well, I just feel like it's so important to recognize because we often don't realize we're going down a slippery slope with it either. We can be like, oh, this is just helping me sleep. So I have one a night. Right. This is. The guys are doing it. I'm going out with the guys after work today, you know, and so it's normalized. And Marion talked about that.

Ashlee [00:06:56]:
Like, what do you like? I'm just catching up with the guys. I'm hanging out with them. They're doing it so I can do it and how quickly that can transform our life into a problem. Right. And we even recognize it until it's too far gone.

Jennifer [00:07:08]:
Absolutely. I think the place that the family plays in that is important. You know, Ashlee and I use this thing called the diagnostic manual. It's really thick and it's no fun to read. So I don't recommend it.

Ashlee [00:07:20]:
It is no fun to read.

Jennifer [00:07:22]:
I really appreciate what defines addiction in that manual, which is what, you know, we would utilize to diagnose somebody. And in that kind of a. Something I would do in my office with clients this times is to say, is somebody who has a drink every night. An alcoholic is somebody who uses alcohol just on the weekends but gets blackout. Is that an alcoholic is somebody who has their spouse say they have a problem. Is that an alcoholic? And it's really interesting what defines addiction. And really, it is about functioning.

Ashlee [00:08:05]:
Yeah.

Jennifer [00:08:06]:
Can you meet the things that you need to meet in a day? And there's people that can drink and do that. That's one way to look at it. The other thing is, is not just one. So people can be able to meet all their functioning tasks, but then they get a dui. So, yeah, little intervention that happens, you know, that can say there's a problem. The reason I bring up the family here and where it plays in this diagnostic manual is somebody that you have a personal relationship with says that you have a problem with alcohol or a substance. It leads to that. And so it can't just.

Jennifer [00:08:43]:
It's not just one of those. Right. Because we could have somebody in our life that's a teetotaler and, you know, they think somebody has got a problem if they have one beer at a birthday party, you know, once a year. Right. Like, people have perspectives on that. People get DUIs, just not being lucky, you know, that one time that they weren't thinking like. So that's not just that. It's not just I got so drunk that I've missed work and got fired, you know, so it has to be more than one of these areas in our lives that really kind of mark off.

Jennifer [00:09:18]:
And I think that family is an important thing to look at sometimes when. When somebody's struggling with addiction. And I think, again, you know, referencing back to Marian in terms of what she said, she met all those, like, she was able to make appointments and take her kids to things, and she was able to do those things. I think that's a good example of what you're saying in terms of, like, man, this can be something that can really be going on for a while, not recognize it. And yet our family does kind of have a different look at things, don't they?

Ashlee [00:09:50]:
Yeah. And I think it's important for us, especially on here, when we're talking about what it's like to be children of first responders, to talk about that personal piece. I think we did such a Great job. When we talked about the financial aspect and how it kind of impacted both the bus and. And we kind of really honed in on that. I remember being very young and it being so normalized, you know, like, hey, Ash, go get a beer. Go get us a beer. You know, you're little, you think it's fun.

Ashlee [00:10:13]:
You run and you go grab that beer. Right? You think it's so funny. And. And it is, right? There's. It's so hard for me because there's great memories with my uncles and my family, my dad, you know, with alcohol, but then there's also some extremely negative, scary memories with alcohol. And. And I think growing up with it, like, me personally, now I'm not. I feel like an outcast in my family a lot of the times, and I feel like I get made fun of a lot of the times because I'm not one to.

Ashlee [00:10:39]:
I don't. I could have nothing and have the best time. Right? And like, literally, when I say, like, my family can look at you sideways like, what, girl? You're at a Bears game and you're. You're not pounding them, like, what's wrong with you? Right. But it's. It's just like, I think my anxiety has really developed in knowing that, like, yeah, alcohol, while there's fun sides to it, too. I've seen how it can also turn somebody angry, and I've seen how it can also turn something just really bad. And I've heard stories and I.

Ashlee [00:11:07]:
You know what I mean? And yet it was so normalized for me, like, going up, my dad going out to the bar after work to hang out with his friends. And it's never, no offense, like, they were never just like, one beer drinkers.

Jennifer [00:11:19]:
Right, Right.

Ashlee [00:11:20]:
And I guess I could never understand that concept as I got old enough to realize, like, what alcohol was. Like, I've always kind of had this mindset of, like, why do you have to have that to have fun?

Jennifer [00:11:29]:
Right, Right. Well, and I definitely had that childhood, too, of like, go get me a beer. And we had a refrigerator that I knew exactly where the beer was. Like, that definitely has been my experience too. And I think, again, it's that whole thing of culture. Like, I mean, it wasn't dad drinking at home by himself. Like, it was. We're out with other police families.

Jennifer [00:11:56]:
Yeah, other, you know, not always police, but, you know, other families. And drinking was definitely a big part of it. And I mean, I enjoy drinking to this day and. But it's also that thing of, like, I can take or leave.

Ashlee [00:12:11]:
Yes.

Jennifer [00:12:11]:
Sadly for some people, that's just not their experience. Yeah. And there can be lots that causes that, you know, there can be how substances can be used as a coping mechanism. And some of that can be a genetic thing. I have experience working with people with drug and alcohol problems. And you know, it's sometimes just like this DNA stuff, right. Like for real. I always joke, I'm like, I am as pale as can be and if I go out with no sunblock on, I'm gonna get sunburned.

Jennifer [00:12:46]:
Like that's just the way I was made. And unfortunately, sometimes that happens with people when it comes to substances. Some people can have a drink and be fine and somebody's DNA says I can't just have one and I'll have to keep going. Again, that's just the luck of the draw sometimes, which is hard to like. You have to have the insight and knowledge to know that for sure.

Ashlee [00:13:08]:
I like that you just said that. Because I think something that keeps bringing coming up for me in clinical world is my first responders that struggle with substance abuse, the amount of trauma that they have had in their lives. I'm always like, oh my gosh. And then we mix in genetics and we mix in everything. But I don't know that I have yet to. Maybe I'm just again my scope of just who I'm seeing. Right. But I have yet to meet somebody who doesn't have this like horrific trauma mixed in with it where it's easy for me to understand that, yeah, I didn't want to be vulnerable and go get help for these things.

Ashlee [00:13:40]:
I thought I could handle it. Right. Like I thought I was doing the right thing. And then substances got introduced to me and now I just can't stop.

Jennifer [00:13:48]:
Well, and a couple of things with that too. I recognize the first Responder World is 24 7. And you know what can be open real late.

Ashlee [00:13:59]:
True.

Jennifer [00:13:59]:
And real early. I'm not open real late and real early. You know, you've had a rough one and you need to process and have a therapeutic session. Well, these are my hours. But you know what is open a bar, you know what fair. There's 24 hour liquor stores. I think again from this like broader, let's take shame away. Let's understand, like, hey, these are some things that are happening.

Jennifer [00:14:22]:
Like, I don't want to think about this and a fifth will help me not think about that. Like, I think that that's a really innocent thing. And you know, when I've worked with people with substances, like I'M very honest. Like, they're really trauma work and therapy stuff. It's not easy. No way easier to go and get a fifth. Like, I mean. Yeah, like, that is easy.

Jennifer [00:14:48]:
It's the cost, though. I mean, there is something that cost you down the road.

Ashlee [00:14:52]:
Oof. So my brain was going there, right when you said this. And I might make some people mad when I say this, and, like, notorious for that, because you know me, I like to speak the truth, and I like to call things as I see it. And we're in this culture that says, hey, it's okay to drink. Oh, my God. Drink, drink, drink. Right? Like, we make fun of people. I've seen that a million times over where a first responder is like, no, man.

Ashlee [00:15:15]:
Like, I'm good. Like, I don't drink. And they're like, oh, like, you're. You know, they make fun of them. Right? And that's fine. Whatever. It's a part of it. I get that.

Ashlee [00:15:23]:
But then we have. Then we go to the other extreme, and I've seen this time and time again where, okay, I am drinking, and I'm drinking a lot, and I'm drinking a lot, and. And maybe that first responder ends up getting in trouble, right? Bites him in the ass. And all of a sudden you get that DUI or you get something and everybody at your department knows, and then all sudden, it's a, oh, my gosh, hands off. So what's wrong with them? They got something wrong with them, but there's no accountability to taking that. Like, oh, yeah, we promote it. Right, Right. Like, it's so bizarre to me because I.

Ashlee [00:15:51]:
I do see that often, too, where I'm like, okay. And they care. Most people care, like, oh, I hope they get better, or I hope. You know, but it's like, also, this is why it's so important to be knowledgeable on it and to be insightful on it. You can't have it both ways. You can't be like, hey, let's just go drink after a bad call and drink after a bad call. But then when someone's in critical need and that I decide to do, you're like, oh, I don't. I don't know what to do with this.

Jennifer [00:16:15]:
Oh, I mean, I. I think you're right, and I think it's.

Ashlee [00:16:18]:
Sorry. That was like, an ugly truth, right?

Jennifer [00:16:20]:
It is an ugly truth. I. There's just too much cooking up in my brain. You know, I think to that whole thing of, like, oh, I don't know what to do when somebody Gets in trouble in a situation like that, Some of that is that. Well, then I'll have to look at my own.

Ashlee [00:16:34]:
Yeah, true.

Jennifer [00:16:35]:
And I think sometimes people can be teased for not drinking because there's some envy of that, like.

Ashlee [00:16:45]:
Yeah, a hundred percent.

Jennifer [00:16:47]:
And, you know, that stuff can really let that shame that we're feeling internally can really come out externally as well. This is random, and I don't know that it's on the same thing that you're talking about, so just skip over it. But. And again, you know, I'm from a different generation. I am your elder and.

Ashlee [00:17:07]:
Stop that.

Jennifer [00:17:08]:
But I think that that speaks a little bit into, like, my experience growing up and, you know, how underage drinking was celebrated and culture and movies and music and all that kind of stuff. And I think about that in terms of, again, how people came back from war and how they dealt with things. You know, it was alcohol. And I remember I was out of college and come back and I was working a job in Louisville, and there happened to be somebody there whose. Whose dad was also a police officer. And, you know, it's a small place. Oh, you know, my dad's. And so we're talking and something was said.

Jennifer [00:17:49]:
I don't even remember. Again, this has been years ago, this conversation. The guy said, yeah, yeah, my dad doesn't drink at all. Because I probably made some, like, joke about the FOP bar or something like that, you know, where I sound. And he was like, yeah, no, my dad doesn't drink. And I was just like, oh, okay. And he reflected. He was like, yeah, my dad's very religious.

Jennifer [00:18:10]:
And I was like, okay. And he was like, yeah, I think you either choose religion or you choose alcohol in terms of, like, it was very black and white, his response. And, you know, he's about my age and things like that. And I thought that was a kind of an interesting observation. And again, this is in the late 1900s. I'm talking to you guys. So again, where, like, it isn't. Will I go to my.

Jennifer [00:18:37]:
My therapist? It's not. Hey, the department actually has this wellness program, and I can go work out or meet with a physical therapist or our gym league is actually enjoyable. It's. Yeah, I think there's more options nowadays, and it's not this kind of black and white thing. And I think I had a point that connected me to what you said, and I'm sorry I lost it. But no, don't Be Sorry was kind of an interesting reflection that it feels like it's this black and white Right. Like, it's either you drink or you don't drink and not.

Ashlee [00:19:14]:
Yeah.

Jennifer [00:19:15]:
The space in between, you know.

Ashlee [00:19:17]:
Yeah, absolutely. And my brain just went to, how do we combat it? Right. And I think for some reason when you said going to the gym, like, stuff like that, I think about this. I'm like, as therapists, I'm excited to have therapy becoming more prevalent within the first responder community. I feel like we really have made such great stride ending the stigma. We still have a lot to do, but it seems like a lot of first responders are open to therapy now. But again, it's this notion of just wellness all around. Physical too.

Ashlee [00:19:47]:
Right. Nutrition, all these things that I think also play into a factor of how does one get well? And I'm going to be honest with you, substance abuse as a therapist is my hardest area. It is the hardest, hardest thing for me to work with. It's hard. And there's addictions in all realms, especially with our first responders. I know we maybe even mentioned this with Marian. Right. But there's like, you know, gambling and porn addictions and all these things that, yes, we are focusing heavy on alcohol because again, that's our personal experience.

Ashlee [00:20:13]:
That's what we can talk to. But there's so much more out there. But I will say that for someone to make that change, they have to be dedicated and they have to want it. It's a hard process and I can understand why a lot of people don't go through with getting the help.

Jennifer [00:20:27]:
Yeah. You know, again, I feel pretty fortunate. I have learned in this career, when I say never, that means I guarantee I'm going to do it. I can remember being in grad school, in conversation with, with another poly or, you know, peer in school and was like, yeah, I don't really want to work with people with addiction. Like, it's your. It's hard. Yeah, I just, I don't think I want to do that. Cut to me, of course, like running an Iop, you know, I say never and then here I am.

Jennifer [00:20:58]:
I do think it's exactly what you're right in terms of saying. It can be impactful in so many ways, like addiction and what addiction really looks like. It is something that intervenes with our entire well being. If it's the addiction, like, I'm avoiding going home because I'm gonna go to the boat and bet, or I'm from Louisville, I'm go bet on the ponies. It is this thing that comes into our lives that becomes compulsive. Like we have to do it in order to feel okay. And what it makes us give up in order to do that. Something.

Jennifer [00:21:37]:
There's a cost involved. And it can be confusing because it is this behavior. Just stop it. Just stop it. And yet there are these driving factors that are happening, Be it emotionally, be it chemically in our brains that is driving that bus.

Ashlee [00:21:56]:
It is insane. It is insane. We could spend a whole episode on this. And it's still. Even with learning about it over and over, I feel like I still have to go back to my books and read it and break it down, because it is insane the way these chemicals mess with our brain and how the brain actually reacts to it and all that's going on when we do use substances. My mind is blown every time I try to learn. I feel like I can't learn enough about it, and yet I can never understand it fully because it's just so complex.

Jennifer [00:22:23]:
It is. It absolutely is. And I think, you know, Marian talked about this, too, in terms of, like, the stigma with first responders. Like, well, that's not me. You know, I'm not a drunk. And it's that way. In which, again, what addiction will do is really skew, as I think the children like to say delulu, like, you know, I think we know you did it.

Ashlee [00:22:48]:
I love it.

Jennifer [00:22:49]:
Your delusion, like, oh, but I'm not like this, so I'm okay. And again, to tie back, like, that's where. It's a complicated thing with family, but how our families love us and they can really be a mirror that we don't want to look into and saying, like, hey, there's a problem, or this isn't working.

Ashlee [00:23:07]:
Yeah. I do think when I. And again, I can't make a blanket statement for everybody, but I do think when I learn with my first responders a lot, it's usually the spouse or someone in the household who's the one calling it.

Jennifer [00:23:18]:
Oh, yeah. Oh. I can't tell you how many first responders I meet with in session. And of course, I ask about drug use, alcohol use, all the uses. And no, like, it's not really. I mean. I mean, my wife kind of, you know, and I'm like, of course your wife says that, and we'll be unpacking that. But, you know, kind of thing.

Jennifer [00:23:39]:
Hard to live in a culture that promotes something.

Ashlee [00:23:43]:
Yep.

Jennifer [00:23:44]:
That thing that's promoted turns into a real problem. Like, how unwind that. How do I still get to be a part of this community, but I don't do the thing that they do. And I think, again, why Marian is so incredible is she's a great example.

Ashlee [00:23:59]:
Yeah. If you can actually be very successful and not engage well and.

Jennifer [00:24:04]:
And still keep your friendships and still have connections with people. So true.

Ashlee [00:24:10]:
One thing I want to obviously mention is that you and I. Again, our little disclaimer. While we. We would love to be everyone's therapist and help everyone on this. On this platform, we are not. And so it's just ideas and concepts to take and. And maybe look at. But obviously, if someone is struggling, you got to get more help.

Ashlee [00:24:28]:
And I would say that if we could give some tools or some recommendations. I know for me, working with a lot of Building peer support and doing these things, it's knowing your resources, spend the time at the. Your departments to know what's around you. Are these treatment centers, Are they geared towards first responders? Do they even take your insurance? Know the information to make sure that if someone does finally come to you and they say, I need the help, you get them to the appropriate places? I think that I see that fall through a lot because it's like all of a sudden like, oh, where do we go? You know? But there are a lot of different things out there now, and every area is different. And so, like peer support teams, admin people. Right. Look into it, research it, Go talk to them, interview the places and see what you think.

Jennifer [00:25:13]:
Yeah. You know, I think Marian is a great proponent of the STEPS program, and that's Alcoholics Anonymous. And it's interesting. I mean, I think that there's great pillars in the book, which is what AA is kind of built on, and these 12 steps that I don't even think you have to have an addiction problem to say, like, there's some great stuff in there about accountability, about responsibility, about amends, like saying we're sorry. You know, those are things, whether you got a problem or you don't have a problem. Incredible things to, like, work and. And grow on.

Ashlee [00:25:52]:
And while you say that, it's also so incredible and helpful for the families to actually do those same things and to be a part of that treatment process.

Jennifer [00:26:00]:
Oh, absolutely.

Ashlee [00:26:01]:
I think this conversation could honestly go on for days. Right. Like, and. And I do think we'll explore this further because I. Again, there's so many topics when it comes to substance abuse and first responders, and we know that is statistically higher for our first responders than civilian population. And so I think it is something we'll have to continue to hit on, but it's just continuing to open the door. I always say this. I know, repetitive.

Ashlee [00:26:24]:
But we crack it open, and we just keep trying to push it open a little bit more and more. Well, I think.

Jennifer [00:26:28]:
I hope what our listeners hear is, like, that we do want to have these conversations about things that are a problem. Like, I don't think what. We want to have this podcast and just talk about Kumbaya, rainbows and sunshine. Like, there are some things that are. That are an underbelly with this profession. And I think the more we get to put light on it, we hope the healthier families. I mean, that's why we're here. Families get to be well.

Ashlee [00:26:56]:
Thank you guys for listening today. I know that it's always hard to, like, wrap it up, because I feel like, where do we leave it? But I wanted to leave it on some resources, some tools, like we said, just spots of where you can go with it, but really being ahead of it and staying on top of it, because unfortunately, every single department, whether you're fire, whether you're police, whether you are dispatch, whether you're ems, what have you, like, it creeps up. It's going to happen. It's. And so you got to be prepared to help your people when they need it.

Jennifer [00:27:23]:
Exactly. Exactly. Well, Ashlee, what do you always say?

Ashlee [00:27:27]:
All right, guys, we're excited for next episode. We'll see y' all soon. But as always, when the call hits home, Jennifer and I are here for you. Thank you.

Jennifer [00:27:34]:
Thanks.