Inside EMS: How First Responders Cope with Trauma, PTSD, and the Need for Mental Health Support

Mike Mudd [00:00:00]:
When we would have a critical incident, I didn't have any mechanisms. I wanted to help people. I'd bring them in and talk with them, but that's all we really had. It was get them back out on the street, get them back on the next run. But that wasn't the best thing. You know, a lot of stuff stuck with people. A lot of people leave the field or really become just bitter, angry people. And I'm like, you need to leave.

Mike Mudd [00:00:21]:
Like, you need to go do something else. But, you know, you can't force somebody to leave that field and go do something else. But you can see it.

Jennifer [00:00:29]:
Hi, welcome back to when the Call Hits Home.

Ashlee [00:00:31]:
This is Jennifer and I'm Ashlee.

Jennifer [00:00:34]:
And Ashlee, you know, this one's been a long time in the making. Our guest today is Mike Mudd. And when we first started this podcast, I was in conversation with our guest today, and I'm so excited that we finally have gotten him on the podcast. So, Mike, I'm just going to hand it to you and you tell us a little bit about who you are and we'll go from there.

Mike Mudd [00:00:53]:
Oh, my gosh. Well, I'm excited to be on today. It has been a long time and been friends for a while, so I'm excited to be on this and tell a little bit of my previous life and experiences and what I've been through and how it relates to what you guys do. And so I'm excited to be here.

Jennifer [00:01:09]:
Well, you mentioned past life, so tell us a little bit what you do now and then what your career was before.

Mike Mudd [00:01:15]:
So I am a realtor now. Been doing this for a little over 12 years, 12 and a half years now. Coming up on 13 years for that. I was a paramedic here in Louisville. I did that for 25 years. The last several years, I was a captain over operations for private service. When I was on duty, I was in charge of everything from dispatch to the crews to discipline to making critical scene runs and helping out the crews and mentoring and things like that, which seemed to be fantastic. When I was a street medic.

Mike Mudd [00:01:51]:
I was like, I want to be that person. And I did love it. But ultimately managing people was where I got to is like, this is not as much fun as it looked like from the outside. And so managing the cruise and things like that really got me to a point where I'm like, I'm not looking forward to going to work anymore because I know I've got to deal with this, this, this person and this person. I know it's Going to be difficult. That's when I really started. Like 25 years is probably enough. And I need to look into my next career.

Mike Mudd [00:02:19]:
And I dug around a little bit and looked at nursing programs because that's a natural.

Ashlee [00:02:24]:
Right.

Mike Mudd [00:02:24]:
Transition from paramedic to nursing. I just wanted to get out of the medical field completely. And I grew up watching this old house on. Yeah. And all of those remodeling shows. And just I'm like, well, let me talk to some friends in real estate. Long story short, I took my test, got my license, and it just exploded for me. Changed my life.

Mike Mudd [00:02:48]:
A lot of things I've been exposed to and a lot of work I've done on myself has been through going to conferences and different self help speakers. And I do and continue to do a lot of work on me because I. I need a lot of work. So. And you know, dating back before that, I grew up here in Louisville. I was part of a split flat family. My mom and dad got divorced when I was about 1. My mom remarried my stepdad who was a police officer and I was about three and my dad remarried when I was about six.

Mike Mudd [00:03:25]:
I've always had two sets of parents, but I live with my mom and my stepdad who was the police officer. Yeah.

Jennifer [00:03:32]:
You know, Mike, I only knew you as a realtor and it's so funny like, you know, you've had a couple past lives before we got to know each other. I do think. And people need to know if they're in the Louisville area and need a house that they need to reach out because you're amazing. Again, I've only ever known you as a realtor and only hear great stuff about that. But we do want to talk a little bit about kind of what drew you to becoming a paramedic in terms of that as your first career.

Mike Mudd [00:03:58]:
Well, that was not what I was going to do at all. Obviously, you know, my stepdad was a police officer and that's what I wanted to be when I grew up from I can remember always I wanted to be a cop. I went from my big wheel days to my bicycle days. I always, I made this blinking with my eyes for the blue lights because my stepdad was a detective and he had unmarked cars and in his grill he had these blue lights. And when he pulled in the driveway, if I was in the driveway, he turned those on. And I love. Yeah, I would do that with my eyes when we played cops and robbers.

Ashlee [00:04:40]:
I love that.

Mike Mudd [00:04:41]:
And I made a siren with my voice. Oh, I was always a cop. And so the joke was that I was going to grow up to be a police car. So I was always fascinated with the lights and the sirens and all of that. My plan was I was going to graduate high school, and then I was going to go into the Air Force. And when I got out of the Air Force, I was going to be a cop. And so I remember telling my stepdad, at one point, though, I saw an ambulance driving there. I was like, oh, I think I want to do that.

Mike Mudd [00:05:13]:
He's like, no, you don't want to do that. And I'm like, why not? He's like, people throw up in your mouth. And I'm like, okay, I'm out. I'm good. My mom didn't want me to be a cop. She had him bring home some homicide pictures one time to try and discourage me from doing that, to, like, scare me out of it. And I just loved it. Like, oh, these are.

Ashlee [00:05:33]:
Wait, sign me up even more.

Mike Mudd [00:05:35]:
Yeah, I had those for years. Up until probably five years ago, I was going through some stuff. I said, I should probably shred these. Like, if somebody goes through these pictures when I die, they're going to be, like, weird. So I went into the Air Force, and then I got out home, and I ended up being a paramedic. Long story short, I got a job as a dispatcher and just worked my way up from dispatcher to EMT to medic to running the service.

Ashlee [00:06:04]:
But wait, hold up. We were in the Air Force, too. I had no idea.

Mike Mudd [00:06:09]:
I was in the Air Force, too. Yeah, I was a F16 crew chief in the Air Force. I wanted to be a cop in the Air Force, but my depth perception apparently was off, so it disqualified me from being a cop in the Air Force. I mean, it hasn't really affected my life at all, but I ended up being a crew Chief on the F16, which is a really fun job. So I was a guy that did all of this and did all these actions, and it was fun, but I didn't want to do that in the civilian world when I got out. So.

Jennifer [00:06:37]:
Understandably. Understandably. I love that about being a little kid and being in the car, but you know how it all kind of comes back around? That's amazing to kind of share that. I appreciate that.

Ashlee [00:06:48]:
Yeah, I had to laugh because I'm like, that's what it was for me. Like, I don't know. That would be the best part. If you did a ride along or something. I'd be like, dad, just let me hit the sirens. Just Let me hit the lights. Like, I knew where those buttons were in every squad. I'm like, let's go.

Ashlee [00:07:03]:
So that made me laugh, too. I think what's really cool is we haven't had. We've been in search of finding somebody in the EMS world to come on here because we really want to represent, right? And. And we haven't had this amaz, amazing opportunities. So I'm so grateful that you're here. And I wanted to ask if you could just describe maybe a little bit of what a typical day or night, whatever that shift was for you kind of looked like on the job.

Mike Mudd [00:07:26]:
Well, you know, EMS is a different animal than fire police, ems. We are very independent and we think independently, which is what makes you good at the job, because when you're on the scene, nothing's the same. And everybody's signs and symptoms and stuff are all different. So we have to think independently on our feet. And so it's much different than the fire service or the police department. It's like when this happens, you put water on it or you put. You know, and so. And we're like.

Mike Mudd [00:07:56]:
We're all over the place. You know, whether it's a stroke or a heart attack or trauma and car accidents, it's always. You always having to. Each situation presents its own unique challenges. I guess a day in the life or a night in the life, because you work both shifts, a lot of times, times would be mostly sitting around. You do a lot of that now. When I work for the city, I worked for, like, our unit, and our shift was ranked, like, fifth busiest in the nation. Oh, wow.

Mike Mudd [00:08:23]:
Here in Louisville, which was surprising. A lot of it is whole hum stuff. I've had a cold for three days. You know, sick babies, parents don't know what to do with the kids, or they call because they're throwing up blood. And when we get there, we're like, oh, well, you know, what do they have to eat today? What are they. They had cherry popsicles all day. And so the blood isn't blood. It's just cherry popsicles.

Mike Mudd [00:08:47]:
Dealing with fevers and delivering babies and things like this. So a lot of it is kind of not too exciting. We say it's 80%, kind of boring, not really needed EMS stuff, and 20% of some of the craziest stuff you could ever imagine in your life. You know, you're in the middle of a shooting situation, and you're in a house or you're on the street and people are screaming and yelling, and sometimes the police are there. First, they usually are now. Back when I was doing it, they weren't. It was kind of our goal was to beat the police to everything. Kind of a challenge we both had against each other.

Mike Mudd [00:09:21]:
Police were trapped, and we tried. Some of the stuff was crazy. But when you're that type of person, that's what you thrive in. You thrive in bringing some calm to chaos. That's what I loved. I love being. Once I got my medic, I love that. I love being the person that the police were there and the fire department were there, and they're all freaking out because babies are dying and not breathing because they're dealing with their own thing.

Mike Mudd [00:09:46]:
And then when you walk in, it's like the paramedics here, here. And I'm like, oh, yeah, give them to me. You know, this is what I do. And I did enjoy that part of it. To be able to bring some calm to some of the most craziest things that some people experience in their life. Just being able to slow down and slow your speech down and. And speak in a calm manner, and you slow your cadence down. The crazier it is, the slower I talked and the quieter that I would die.

Mike Mudd [00:10:14]:
I would get very monotone with people just trying to calm them down. Most of the time.

Jennifer [00:10:21]:
Yeah.

Mike Mudd [00:10:21]:
Sometimes you just had to play the game and yell at them and cuss at them and tie them down and. But the next, you know, once you get them under control, then you're back into the, okay, let's deal with the situation here minute by minute. So it was a very, very emotional mind kind of field, and you just, you know, you deal with a lot of stuff, and you just. You file it away. Because when I did it, there was no. They were just starting to do some of the critical debriefing, but we didn't have any of that. You just sucked it up and you went to work. Yeah, I had partners that had kids, and we made kids that were.

Mike Mudd [00:10:59]:
Died in the night or different things. And your partner is losing their crap and cuss on your. Your.

Ashlee [00:11:08]:
You can. The one that will drop it.

Mike Mudd [00:11:11]:
Okay, good. Yeah. When your partner's losing their shit.

Ashlee [00:11:13]:
Yeah.

Mike Mudd [00:11:14]:
Partner has to, like, calm down. I've got this. You go, walk away. Let me deal with this. And they would do the same thing for you, for the most part, so.

Jennifer [00:11:22]:
Well, I appreciate you sharing all that. And I was wondering, like, when you became a captain, that kind of knowing people's, you know, what's a good fit? Or knowing somebody has a family and they're showing up To a child incident, Is that something that played when you were kind of in that leadership role more? Or was it more the frustration of getting shifts covered? That was tougher, all of that and.

Mike Mudd [00:11:49]:
Holding crews over because we didn't have enough crews to cover the run volume that was coming in and. And people wanting to go home and go home to their families or, you know, they've been on shift for 10 or 12 hours and you're like, I can't let you go because we don't have enough people here to cover what we have. And that was struggle because I felt really bad because I've been in that position. I've been that person that had to get mandatory and, you know, they're tired and they're exhausted and what kind of medic are they showing up as for their patients when they're tired and they're upset and they're angry, that was difficult, too, and difficult for them to manage as well. Because you want people to show up at their best when other people are really at their worst. But anything for me was when we would have a critical incident. I didn't have any mechanisms. I wanted to help people.

Mike Mudd [00:12:38]:
I'd bring them in and talk with them, but that's all we really had. It was get them back out on the street, get them back on the next run. But that wasn't the best thing. You know, a lot of stuff stuck with people. A lot of people leave the field or. Or really become just bitter, angry people. And I'm like, you need to leave. Like, you need to go do something else.

Mike Mudd [00:12:57]:
But you can't force somebody to leave that field and go do something else. But you can see it.

Jennifer [00:13:02]:
Ashlee and I talk about I'm a bit older and what my dad's experience was in terms of mental health for officers to where we are now, you know, it's come a long way. Well, yeah. And so I was going to ask, in terms of your experience, is there some reflection of, like I wish we had. Is there some. Something that you kind of can look at hindsight and it would have been nice too, for sure.

Mike Mudd [00:13:26]:
I wish we had been able to have the mental health system set up when we had a critical incident to be able to pull those crews off the street, talk with somebody that night and, you know, maybe a couple days later to be able to give somebody a little bit of time off, like, okay, this was really bad. There was an incident that I remember that really messed with some of my employees. It was a really bad accident. Several people burn up in the car in being the service in this county, we, our service was in charge of taking people to the coroner's office. So my crews had to wait for the fire department to cut the roof off and literally pry these bodies out of this charred car that were still in their seatbelts. You know, you see it, you can't unsee it. You can't unsmell it.

Jennifer [00:14:12]:
Right.

Mike Mudd [00:14:13]:
So I wish that I had been able to do something for them then. And there had been systems in place and mechanisms in place. I think there are now. I still think there's probably a long way to go.

Jennifer [00:14:23]:
Oh, absolutely, Mike. Yeah, absolutely.

Mike Mudd [00:14:25]:
In my opinion, you need staff that are clinical workers. You need to be able to pull people off the street for either the rest of the shift or even a couple of days and force them to come in and speak with a therapist, because a lot of people won't. I've got to handle it in this field. It's macho, and you can take care of everything, and not everybody can. I thought I could. And it took me several years for me getting out of that world. I remember when I left and I got into this, it was about two weeks after I had left EMS supervisor role, and I was just like, my shoulders, they just relaxed. It was.

Mike Mudd [00:15:08]:
It was physically obvious that a lot of stress was off of me.

Jennifer [00:15:13]:
Yeah.

Mike Mudd [00:15:13]:
Then it took several years after that. I was having lunch with a friend of mine that. And she was a medic for years and a supervisor as well, and she was talking about her ptsd, and I never thought I had any of that. And then it struck me that there. I do. I really do. And that just made me a little emotional. Just there.

Mike Mudd [00:15:33]:
But, yeah, just know. And it's affected relationships, it's affected. Just. It affects your life. But knowing that it's there helps.

Jennifer [00:15:44]:
Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I. I think you think you're crazy. Well, and I think that it's this idea of, like, you know, I went into this and saw things and it was part of the job. Like, this is what I signed up for and you will. Well, and it's funny, Mike, even talking about, you know, those reactions of seeing people, you're employees, your peers that you care about, and, like, how are they going to be for the people, their patients? Like, I think that's such a first responder of, like, how we want to show up our best and the realization of, like, our brains are just not supposed to see things that we've seen. And it's not, I think, a weakness or. Oh, Darn.

Mike Mudd [00:16:27]:
It.

Jennifer [00:16:27]:
I'm one of the ones that fell to ptsd. It's just again, it's just there's again. We're not supposed to see a body charred in a car.

Mike Mudd [00:16:37]:
Accident. Accident, yeah. You know, the things that you see. And there's some fun. There's some good stuff in the field, you know.

Jennifer [00:16:44]:
Absolutely.

Ashlee [00:16:48]:
I was gonna ask about that earlier. Wait a minute.

Mike Mudd [00:16:51]:
It doesn't smell good. They usually don't. You know, it's. Let me just say it's not a clean hospital situation.

Jennifer [00:17:00]:
Right.

Mike Mudd [00:17:00]:
The side of the road at 4 o' clock in the morning, in the front seat of the car, you know, you're out in somebody's house, babies don't wait. Babies are coming when they're coming, and you just got to catch them and hope there aren't any complications because you're out in the field and you've got to get somebody to a hospital, you know, My PTSD shows up in catastrophe. Yes, I. I still do it. I do it all the time. It's in my head all the time. But now I know what it is and I'm like, stop thinking about that. Like this thing happened.

Mike Mudd [00:17:31]:
Why is your mind going through these things and just driving down the road and okay, I'm driving down the road, the car coming in other way. What if they come across to the meeting and come toward me? What am I going to do? And. Because you've seen all of that.

Jennifer [00:17:43]:
Exactly.

Mike Mudd [00:17:45]:
That comes from that. And so my mind thinks of the worst thing all the time. I even say out loud sometimes. Now stop it, stop it. What are you doing? This doesn't exist, Mike. Think of something else. Think of something positive. And so it's affected relationships.

Mike Mudd [00:18:00]:
When my partner was going through some stuff, you know, I always think somebody's going to kill himself and I'm going to go find them that I love. And so that's where my mind goes. It's always the worst case scenario. I remember we had gotten into a fight, he had said something and so I went over to the house and when I went over to his house, he went. I didn't see him. And I went upstairs and I didn't see him. And I immediately in my head, I thought, he's hung himself from the rafters in the basement. And I was headed to the basement and he was coming out of the bathroom.

Mike Mudd [00:18:28]:
Like, he was like, what are you doing? And I'm like, you know? Yeah, you. Because you've seen it, you know.

Jennifer [00:18:34]:
Exactly.

Mike Mudd [00:18:35]:
The family go through it. It's just Tough to let that stuff go. I don't know that it'll ever go away, but at least I know what it is now and I can identify it.

Ashlee [00:18:44]:
I just want to thank you because I think this is the first time we've had someone on here. I mean, we've had incredible people on here who are open and vulnerable, but I feel like this is one of the first times that you're giving the raw truth of, like, what goes on in. In your brain. Right. Like, what actually happens. And I think this is going to be so incredibly powerful for a lot of people who listen, because what also happens right away when you're like that. Ptsd. I didn't know what it was.

Ashlee [00:19:09]:
It's like a really isolating feeling because you feel like looking around like anybody else feeling this, anybody else having these thoughts.

Mike Mudd [00:19:15]:
Does anybody else see that? It's. It goes back to. You won't sit with your back to the door and you know right where that stuff comes from.

Ashlee [00:19:23]:
Yes. And I just think that people really. To have you come on here and to be so open and for others to listen to this, like, I think it's going to be incredibly powerful just because hopefully, one, they realize I'm not alone. But then too, just to hear, okay, there's some normalcy to this. Right, Right, yeah. Put up the front, trust me. But, yeah, absolutely.

Mike Mudd [00:19:48]:
Growing up as a kid, it was the same thing. My dad was a homicide detective. So for one, he showed no emotion, and that caused conflict between my mom and him. But he saw. I saw some of the pictures that he took, you know, of bodies and murder scenes. And so he had that on him and he carried that with him. But that affected him that he couldn't show the emotion. He had to tough it up and be.

Mike Mudd [00:20:16]:
I mean, he started on the police department in like 61, and so he retired in 93, 92, somewhere around there. He put on 30 some years, but I saw that affect their marriage as well. So, one, he didn't show any emotion with us. I mean, I mean, he did. He wasn't cold. We never saw him emotional. We knew if, like, if he ever lost his temper, like, it was, yeah, yeah, watch out. And my mom was the opposite.

Mike Mudd [00:20:42]:
My mom was always yelling and taking care of the kids, so that was all on her. But I remember her saying, he doesn't show any emotion. Like, I need somebody to have some emotion. And it ultimately led to their divorce, and then they got remarried again after he retired. But that took an effect on them, and it also affected how my mom raised us. Like, we grew up in a nice neighborhood. I was just driving down there a couple weeks ago, showing a friend where I live, like, we weren't supposed to go around the block. Definitely didn't go into the woods when we were kids because people would get us.

Mike Mudd [00:21:11]:
Because my mom also knew from him what happened to people somewhat. And so she was very protective of us. And we kind of. Of course, we went into the woods every chance we had, of course, and did all of those things he told us not to do.

Jennifer [00:21:27]:
Like the good children that you are. Yes, of course.

Mike Mudd [00:21:30]:
But those fears of what would happen to us affected how she raised us as well.

Jennifer [00:21:34]:
And so I think that that is an important thing to kind of recognize. Ashlee and I kind of started this just being the kids of first responders and our experience and having parents that are a little bit hypervigilant or parents telling you stories that maybe not be age appropriate, but again, it comes from such a like of safety. Exactly, Exactly. You know, somebody drowned in that pool there. I'm like, can we just get to school? Like to hear about somebody drowning in a pool on my way to school. Mike, I think it's just echoing what you're saying. And when you have parents that are in these jobs, they're just very hyper aware and that is going to creep on their kids. Like, that is just for sure.

Jennifer [00:22:21]:
Something that kind of leans itself to that kind of parenting.

Mike Mudd [00:22:26]:
Collateral damage.

Jennifer [00:22:27]:
Yeah. Speaking of having your stepdad be in law enforcement and I appreciate you sharing. You know, I'm going to be a cop one day and obviously had some imprint. Did he get to see you be an EMS and did that dynamic change in terms of you guys being both in the same career or not really.

Mike Mudd [00:22:50]:
He never really discussed much of it. I grew up hearing some of his friends over the years, some of the other cops and detectives that he knew that had killed themselves over the years. And you worry as a kid, are my parents going to do that? But we didn't really. He's like, he didn't want me to do any of it. Do anything else, but don't do this job. He didn't really want me to be a cop because he knew, but that you weren't talking me out of it. Just like any other first responders. Kids that want to go into the same field.

Mike Mudd [00:23:17]:
You're not talking about it. They're going to do it because that's what they want to do.

Ashlee [00:23:21]:
And so, yeah, I was wondering if we could circle back for a second. There's Something standing out to me. So when you went through your EMS career, the mental health portion you were saying wasn't as strong. Correct.

Mike Mudd [00:23:33]:
Didn't exist.

Ashlee [00:23:34]:
Yeah, yeah. And you had said. And I loved it, you had said, kind of forcing people to talk to somebody. Right. And something that I do in this world like right now is that I'm helping with a department, we're helping, trying to enforce neck up checkups. So those once a year wellness visits and we go back and forth, they go back and forth on. Do you make it mandatory? Do you not? And like my strong belief is, yeah, you do.

Mike Mudd [00:23:57]:
You don't. That most of them won't do it.

Ashlee [00:24:00]:
Yeah, yeah.

Mike Mudd [00:24:01]:
Ones that do will feel less than because they're doing it. And some of these other stronger people that can handle it, they don't do it because they're more manly or they're tougher or they can handle it. And that's just not the case. People need to be made to do this, if nothing else, during critical, after critical events, serious heavy duty stuff. Because you see the serious heavy duty stuff, they need to be made to talk with somebody just to get it out of their heads. Yeah, we just lock it away. I remember my mom telling me one time, you've gotten really cold. And I'm like, no, Evan, what are you talking about? I'm not cold.

Mike Mudd [00:24:37]:
But she was right. Like to stay in that industry for any amount of time, you have to be able to put it away and put it in box and lock that box. If not, you won't stay in it long. You'll just drive yourself crazy or you'll kill yourself. I mean, people do it all the time in this field. I don't think the public realizes how much suicide happens between police, fire and ems.

Jennifer [00:24:58]:
Yeah. Oh, Mike, we talk about it so much here.

Mike Mudd [00:25:01]:
It happens.

Jennifer [00:25:02]:
Such a reality, so sad.

Mike Mudd [00:25:05]:
And it's because you aren't supposed to talk about it. You aren't made to talk about it. It should be, it should be part of the training. Just like you have to do continuing education every year. It shouldn't be any different. It should be part of taking care of people that do this job. Because I know if you don't, you run them into the ground and then. And they do crazy stuff.

Mike Mudd [00:25:30]:
We see all the time, the police, the fire, EMS are being arrested for doing stupid stuff.

Ashlee [00:25:36]:
That impulsive.

Mike Mudd [00:25:39]:
Yeah. And it's just, it's because this, you take on so much for the public and all the public sees is, oh, a policeman was doing that. Well, crooked cop or, you know, crooked medic or bad fireman. But it's the job. It's their fault at the end of the day because they made the decision to do the wrong thing. However, they didn't get in this industry to do the wrong thing. 99.9% of people did get in this industry to take advantage of people. It happens because of what the job does to me.

Jennifer [00:26:13]:
I just got goosebumps.

Ashlee [00:26:14]:
I was just about to say Mike might be my new favorite human. And everyone listening is going to be mad because I say that often. But he may have went to number one because that was so powerful and it's so refreshing. Like to hear it and to also like to hear this from the EMS side.

Mike Mudd [00:26:30]:
Well, that's something. When Jennifer was talking at church and she was talking about doing some of the work she does with police, and I think it was mostly police at the time. I think you were doing a little bit with fire, maybe. But I was like, hey, don't forget the paramedics. And she's like. And it hadn't even dawned on her at the time. I'm like, but we're right there. Like, everybody knows police and fire, and they get the most attention.

Mike Mudd [00:26:53]:
EMS has always been what we've said. The redheaded stepchildren, of course, as you can relate, like, they don't get attention. They don't get any accolades. If you watch the news media, the news media doesn't. They'll say police or fire department. They don't say the paramedics. They don't talk about that. We're dealing with the human side of it.

Mike Mudd [00:27:15]:
We're taking care of the people. And it. Because it's only been around since the early to mid-60s, it doesn't have the recognition that it deserves. It doesn't have the respect that it deserves. It doesn't have the professionalism that it deserves. It's getting better. A lot of fire departments are pulling EMS into the department, and that's a numbers game. Because fire prevention has gotten so good, they don't make as many fire runs as they did.

Mike Mudd [00:27:45]:
And so you can't justify bigger budgets and more fire trucks and all this better equipment. If your run volume is going down right when you pull EMS in, it's usually a different tax bracket. They've maxed out on their tax base that they can. For fire, you pull EMS in and that gives them additional tax revenue that they can charge now. And it justifies the equipment and things that they need because of the run volume. Because EMS run volume is Just astronomical.

Jennifer [00:28:15]:
Non stop all the time.

Mike Mudd [00:28:18]:
So it's. EMS is hugely undervalued and underrated and underappreciated.

Jennifer [00:28:26]:
Can I say another population that I'm going to be honest, like I had no clue that's where you started was dispatchers.

Mike Mudd [00:28:31]:
Huh?

Jennifer [00:28:32]:
Yeah, I think that's another population.

Mike Mudd [00:28:35]:
They totally agree.

Jennifer [00:28:36]:
Really missed in a lot of this stuff. And again, you were talking about the same thing with high suicide rates and things like that as well, so.

Ashlee [00:28:45]:
Yeah, not me just paying. Because I also feel that same way about corrections.

Mike Mudd [00:28:49]:
Yeah, right.

Ashlee [00:28:51]:
Like, yeah, wild.

Mike Mudd [00:28:53]:
Those both are so true.

Ashlee [00:28:55]:
Yeah.

Mike Mudd [00:28:55]:
And EMS is underpaid. Corrections is underpaid. Thousand percent underpaid. A lot of people don't think of them as first responders, but they are, they're dealing with, especially dispatchers. They're the ones that you call now, you can tell the ones that have been there for a long time that are bitter when, you know, aren't so bitter. But they need the same thing. They need.

Jennifer [00:29:19]:
Exactly.

Mike Mudd [00:29:20]:
They need to be made to talk to people to. Because they're hearing it. They're not there. So it is different. But man, they're hearing it on the phone. They're hearing those cries for help, they're hearing people dying on the phone like exactly. They're all that stuff. So it does affect them.

Jennifer [00:29:36]:
Absolutely.

Ashlee [00:29:37]:
Well.

Jennifer [00:29:37]:
And I want to go back up for what you said too, like when you were a captain and people having to stay late and I'm like, I, I know it has to come down sometimes to just a staffing issue. And again, like people have sacrificed so much and it's again, like we just did a horrible call. Well, there's another one and we don't have people, we don't have people to. So you just got to go, you know, that's that kind of stuff, the revolving door of it as well.

Mike Mudd [00:30:05]:
Yeah, yeah. There's just not enough compensation and it's not as much of the compensation when you're in it. That's nice. But it's the other support that.

Jennifer [00:30:15]:
Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I obviously we all want more money like that. Who doesn't? But sometimes it's about. Can just see me. Can you just see that I'm struggling and support.

Mike Mudd [00:30:27]:
And those were some of the things that I tried to implement. I'm like, you know, I worked for a private service the last several years. That's where I started, that's where I ended. But we were the 911 backup for the city. We were the 911 across the river. For two counties. And so they're seeing the same stuff, of course. Let's just.

Mike Mudd [00:30:45]:
Instead of throwing a party where everybody gets drunk, act stupid, why don't we do some recognition? Why don't we give somebody a little ribbon that they can wear on their uniform that for whatever it is, made this critical run or you did something, Give them a ribbon, Give them some recognition. Even that $2 ribbon means something because it makes somebody proud, and it shows that they were recognized, what they did mattered, and that it seemed. You know, I made a run one time and a house fire, and we had to dead babies that we were trying to resuscitate in the ambulance and the mom, because there was like five of them. And so we load up as many people as we can in each ambulance because you only have a limited amount. And they all died. The pregnant mom died. But we were all recognized. We were part of the fire department at that time, and so we were all recognized for that.

Mike Mudd [00:31:37]:
And we played off. Oh, we don't need it. But it did mean something. It really did.

Jennifer [00:31:41]:
It really did.

Mike Mudd [00:31:42]:
Oh, they saw, and they know what we went through just to deal with that.

Ashlee [00:31:46]:
So I love that because it kind of wraps up some of our other episodes, too, in this, because we've tried to hit on leadership as well. I'm a big proponent of. I will go to the lengths of, like, I don't know, getting myself in trouble for it, but I just think that there's. What you're saying is so true. And then we had Tom Rizzo on here, and we've had people on here, and it's like, what is the key to a good leader in these organizations? Right? At these departments? What I feel like you're saying. And it keeps coming back to us. Just see your people. Just show them that they're human and show that you care about them.

Mike Mudd [00:32:16]:
Right. It's huge. My nickname was Captain Dick.

Jennifer [00:32:20]:
Just stop.

Ashlee [00:32:22]:
Oh, no.

Mike Mudd [00:32:23]:
But I followed the rules, and I didn't play any favorites. And when somebody did something, I had to hold them accountable. But I was fair. I didn't like doing that part of the job, but it was part of the job. I liked going around and checking on people. Like my. When I was on duty, I wanted to see every crew member that was on shift at least once during the night and just check on them. I love that they thought I was checking up on them, you know, and getting them in trouble.

Mike Mudd [00:32:48]:
And there was all kinds of rumors out there that I'd written people up for sleeping or something. And I Never did that. That never happened. But when I was gone, they missed me because then they realized, well, Mike actually cared. Some of them I didn't like at all, but they were still there doing a job and I still cared. Leadership is huge. Leadership training is almost non existent. What they tend to do is take somebody that's good on the street, teach them the books, and then promote them.

Mike Mudd [00:33:17]:
Just because you're a good medic doesn't mean you're going to be a good supervisor. Doesn't mean you're a good boss. Doesn't mean you're going to be a good director. There needs to be more and more training for the leadership working, leading people.

Jennifer [00:33:30]:
Yeah.

Mike Mudd [00:33:31]:
How to lead people, how to care about people, how to respond to people in these situations. Because it all comes from the top. The atmosphere of the whole department starts at the very top. Not just the chief, but also the community leaders that put the chief in place.

Ashlee [00:33:49]:
Yes.

Mike Mudd [00:33:50]:
It comes from them as well. And they don't know what's going on and they don't have a clue because they've never done the job. I don't know how to fix it. I just know it needs to start at the top.

Jennifer [00:34:01]:
Well, I just want to say you definitely sound like somebody grew up in a first responder home when rules and we have to follow them.

Ashlee [00:34:09]:
Is it bad that I'm sitting over here like, ooh, hit send on this episode to everybody in the county right now. I got even the higher ups, like, I'm hitting send on this because it's just powerful and it's so true and people need to hear it. And I think coming from someone who's lived it and experienced it, like Jennifer and I kind of talk about this all the time, where we're like, we're so passionate and we want to make change and we talk about these things. But I think sometimes people look at us and they're like, no, you don't.

Jennifer [00:34:34]:
Even know what you're talking about.

Ashlee [00:34:35]:
No therapists, right. And. But to have someone come on and to be able to be so open and to say it, it's like that's the change we hope we see is that people realize, no, this is, this is real. And we have to listen. We have to learn from each other to be able to grow, you know.

Mike Mudd [00:34:50]:
You were talking about leadership again. Leadership has to come out of the ivory tower. I've seen it so much. There was an old chief of police of the county police department that I was kind of knew. Him and my dad were friends and he Put my dad in Professional standards unit, which he hated because he trusted him. But of course, my dad wanted to be there. Because you're investigating other officers.

Jennifer [00:35:13]:
Right. You're not liked.

Mike Mudd [00:35:15]:
He didn't like doing that, but he was trusted. But I remember he would get out, the chief would go out and ride around and make runs every now and then and talk with the people on the ground. That's huge because you think they forget you. And a lot of times they do. They forget where they come from. When you're out and you're checking on your folks, even me, I would try and find my crews. The joy that I got out is I would try and find them and sneak up on them and then scare them. I got the most.

Jennifer [00:35:46]:
And HR never got called Mike.

Ashlee [00:35:48]:
Right.

Mike Mudd [00:35:50]:
That was the most fun. I love that. Just some of the things I did.

Jennifer [00:35:55]:
Yeah.

Mike Mudd [00:35:56]:
Gives you a little bit of joy. People don't understand the way we cope either.

Jennifer [00:36:01]:
Yeah.

Mike Mudd [00:36:01]:
The things we say, the things we make fun of that aren't appropriate. They're not publicly acceptable. The games we play on each other and setting up each other's cars and ambulances and the tricks that we play. It's a mechanism to deal with this stuff.

Jennifer [00:36:18]:
Right.

Mike Mudd [00:36:18]:
It's not appropriate for the public. But it's important for those crews to. For people to have some understanding of why they're doing it, of what they see, of what they deal with on a regular basis. It's crude and inappropriate and nothing you'd want to have around your family during the holidays or people that don't understand a way to decompress and let some of the stress off. Oh, yeah.

Jennifer [00:36:41]:
Well. And I think that there's just that healthy release in terms of, like, we have to laugh so we don't cry. You know, I think that that's part of it. Before we wrap up too much, one thing I want to ask, you know, my. Again, I get to know you personally, and I'm very fortunate for that, but you are such a positive, bright person. And I just wanted to kind of ask, what do you feel like is something that kind of helps you? I know you said you kind of think of the worst, but I think to know you is to know somebody that has a smile and is bright and optimistic. Is there, I don't know, a secret that you have or something that has been helpful for you in terms of knowing you've had those experiences, Experience that keeps you kind of moving forward?

Mike Mudd [00:37:23]:
Choosing my best friend has always said, you've been through so much. How are you not bitter and angry. And I'm like, I. I don't want to be.

Jennifer [00:37:32]:
I love that you love that, too.

Mike Mudd [00:37:34]:
So I really make a choice. It's a conscious effort to not be. You know, since I got into real estate, I've got exposed to a lot of stuff. Les Brown was the first speaker that I really heard that had me in tears at the first conference that I ever went to. And it was the first time I'd ever felt like I could be a little bit more than just average. I could believe in myself a little bit. I could do more. And I trace it back to August 2014.

Mike Mudd [00:37:58]:
It was a Sunday night listening to Les Brown, and it really kind of changed my life and just exposing myself to more and more and more of that positive people, being around positive people or the five people that you surround yourself about. That's who you are. Those things are really true. And I didn't believe any of that. I was never exposed to any of that. Jennifer. You know, all of my family's passed away. Like, I'm the last one.

Mike Mudd [00:38:20]:
You know, my mom, my dad, my stepdad, my brother and sister, They've all passed away young. And so 2017 was a year where I was like, okay, I'm either going to spiral out as well, or I've got to do something. And so I started going back to church again, and that's. We met and trying to do more work on myself. But the way that I deal with that is like, okay, had I been the one to die, how would I have wanted my brother and sister or family to live? I don't want them to live. I would want them to live happy, full lives. Because all. That's all we have to be bitter because I was gone.

Mike Mudd [00:38:57]:
And so that kind of. I give myself permission to be happy.

Jennifer [00:39:00]:
A beautiful walk with grief.

Mike Mudd [00:39:02]:
For me, it's a tribute to them. I still get to live this life until I can't. And so I need to live it as best I can and be the best person I can, because I think it's honoring the ones that can't.

Jennifer [00:39:15]:
I absolutely love that mic that's making me have my feelings.

Ashlee [00:39:19]:
I know. Me, too. I'm not going to lie. Yes. First of all, I'll just cry right now.

Mike Mudd [00:39:27]:
And it's okay.

Ashlee [00:39:28]:
It is.

Jennifer [00:39:29]:
This is what I do with my clients when I do tell health. I have a box of Kleenex, everybody, and I'm just virtually handing it out.

Ashlee [00:39:36]:
So weird how life works, too. Like, even in the midst of this podcast and just, like, hearing These things that maybe, like, I needed to hear today. Right. And that's the beauty of bringing people together like this. So I appreciate it and I. Mike, I just appreciate you being on and being so open. And honestly, I'm just, like, blown away right now. I think my brain can't even keep up.

Ashlee [00:39:55]:
I'm just so honored to have met you and to listen to you.

Jennifer [00:39:58]:
Yeah, well, it was worth the wait for you, Mike. That's for sure worth the wait.

Mike Mudd [00:40:01]:
Honored to be asked. And someone wants to listen to me and talk and Because I'm a talker, which makes me good in real estate, so.

Jennifer [00:40:10]:
Oh. Again, if anybody needs a realtor in your Louisville, Kentucky, head up.

Mike Mudd [00:40:14]:
I'll be a little crazy, but I like to have fun.

Jennifer [00:40:16]:
And, yeah, all the good stuff.

Mike Mudd [00:40:18]:
You know, the other thing, I. I think the previous career has helped me in this career to be able to deal with people and emotions and people, their money, but also to be able to bring a sense of calm and things are spiraling out. It's like I hear myself that same. My voice, my.

Ashlee [00:40:36]:
Yes.

Mike Mudd [00:40:37]:
I was thinking that, okay. And we're going to get through it. And in my mind, nobody's dying. It's okay.

Jennifer [00:40:44]:
Yeah.

Mike Mudd [00:40:45]:
Or we'll find you another house. And thanks for having me on. This has been a lot of fun. I really do appreciate it.

Ashlee [00:40:54]:
Thank you. And thank you for your time. Jennifer, do you have any closing statements?

Jennifer [00:40:59]:
I just love Mike and I'm glad that we got to spend some time with them.

Ashlee [00:41:03]:
I'm just so, so thankful. And we want our listeners to always remember that when the call hits home. Jennifer and I are here for you. So thank you guys and thank you so much again, Mike. We are pumped about this episode for sure.

Mike Mudd [00:41:15]:
Thank you, guys.

Jennifer [00:41:15]:
Bye. Thank you.