Speaker 1

00:02

Okay.Hello,welcometotheAnythingGenderpodcast.IamyourhostCharminPrince,andI'mthrilledtogreetyouinoursharedspace,aforumdedicatedtoexploringandunravelingthecomplexitiesofgenderinourmodernworld.Todayweembarkonyetanotherenlighteningjourney,weavingthroughtherichtapestryofgendernarratives,examiningthecrossstitchofculturalnorms,andchallengingthescenesthathavelongdefinedandconfinedgenderroles.

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Speaker 1

00:51

Whetheryou'reheretofindcommunity,tolearnsomethingnew,ortobeapartofthechange,wewelcomeyouwithopenarmsandacommitmenttoarespectful,honestexchangeofideas.Today,wehaveaguest,DanaPias,Andshe'sanexecutiveandcareercoach,specializinginhelpingyouunlockyourhighestpotentialtosucceedandtoshine.Withhersupport,womenaspiringtogreaterlevelsofleadershipandentrepreneurshiplearntoretellthestoriestheymusthealsothattheycanemergeintotheirfullpotentialandfindtheirauthenticityconfidentvoice.Leveraginga25plusyearcareeronthefrontlinesofbusiness,DianahasworkedforFortune50companies,entrepreneurialtechstartups,governmentandmilitaryagencies,andnonprofits.

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Speaker 1

02:16

AndshehastaughtgraduatelevelcoursesforseveraluniversitiesintheWashington,D.C.Area.Shewritesonmultipleleadershipsitestobringanempoweredvoicetoleadershipdevelopment.Welcome,Dana.

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Speaker 1

02:41

Andthankyou.I'msorry,isthereanythingthatyou'dliketoaddtothatwonderfulbio?

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Speaker 2

02:48

Oh,well,thankyou.Firstofall,thankyouforhavingmehere.I'veenjoyedgettingreadyforthisconversation.

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Speaker 2

02:54

AndIwasinspiredjustlisteningtoyouintroduceitagain.Sothankyoufordoingthiswork.Thesetopicsarejustsointerestingandsoimportant.

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Speaker 1

03:04

Thankyou.Thankyouforbeinghere.Andmyfirstquestiontoyou,whenyouhearallthischatterandnoiseaboutgenderequityandgenderequality?

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Speaker 1

03:23

Whatcomestomind?

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Speaker 2

03:27

Wow,whatagreatquestion.Well,nowintheworldthatIliveinnow,inthecareerthatIhavenowafterdecadesofaskingmyselfthatquestion,WhatIthinkofnowishistory.Youknow,thehistoryofourspecieshasbeenastruggleforpowerandequalityandequityamonghumanbeings.

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Speaker 2

04:02

Andinthathistory,there'salwaysbeenthebinaryofgender,thewaywe'vedefineditculturally,whichwe'renowrecognizingislessabinarythanweeverreallythoughtitwas.Butthroughhistory,aswestruggleforpowerandcreatethetraumathathasgivenbirthtothemostwonderfulstoriesontheplanetandthemostdramaticmusicandallthethingsweenjoyinourentertainment,Thatstruggleforpowerhasfundamentallykindofcomedowntogenderinalotofways.Anditshowsthehumanproclivityforputtingthingsinpolaropposites.Andtheysaywomenandmenarepolaropposites.

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Speaker 2

04:48

We'vetreateditthatway.Sowetalkaboutequalityandwetalkaboutequity.Wetendtolookatitandthroughthatpolardisparity.Ijustseeitas1bigstory,1bigstoryofhumanitythatbringsustoaplacewherewecanactuallybegintoseetheinequitythatwestartedcreating,literallyprobablymillionsof,tensofthousands,ifnotmillionsandmillionsofyearsago.

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Speaker 2

05:17

Andsomycuriosityisalwaystherelike,okay,whatarewediscoveringtoday?Ifwelookbackatwhatwethoughtgenderequityandequality,wedidn'tevenhavethewordequity.Wethoughtgenderequalitywas50yearsagoorahundredyearsagowithtryingtogetwomentherighttovoteorbeforethat.Ourunderstandingofwhatequalmeans,ourunderstandingofwhatequitymeanscontinuestochangeaswelearnmoreaboutgenderandaboutwhatconstitutesfairtreatmentandfairopportunity.

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Speaker 2

05:51

Sothat'sanabstractanswerthat,youknow,whenI'mworkingwithaspecificclient,Imightbringitdowntoaparticularviewoftheirsituation,Butoverall,havingworkedwithsomanyclients,havingstudiedthistopic,Ijustseeitasanevolutionofourunderstandingofwhatallthosethingsmean,gender,equity,andequality,becausethey'reconstantlyevolving.

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Speaker 1

06:13

Thankyou.Thankyouforyourresponse.Inyouryearsofresearchandstudyingwomen,gender,equity,andequality,whataresomeofthe,Iwannasaysalientpointsthatyouhavediscoveredthattheaveragepersonmaynotbeexposedto.

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Speaker 2

06:44

IwouldsaythemostcorelearningthatI'vehadandcontinuetohave.Andthisappliestoeverybody,men,women,andpeoplewhodefinethemselvesatneitherendofthatspectrum.That'sahumantruthisthatwewantandneedexternalpowerintheworld.

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Speaker 2

07:09

Youknow,externalpower,money,theabilitytomakedecisionsaboutourlivesandthelivesofthepeoplewecareforandtheresourcestolivethroughthosedecisions.Wewanttoliveinabetterhouse.Wewanttogoonbettervacations.Wewanttoeatbetterfood.

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Speaker 2

07:25

Whateverwewantbettereducation,whateverweneedpowerintheworldtodothat.Sowe'reall,weneedacertainamountofexternalpower.Ourmediaandourculturetellsusweneedevenmore.Weneedtobeatthetop.

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Speaker 2

07:40

Weneedtobethemostpowerfulperson,oratleastmorepowerfulthaneverybodyelseweknow.Andsothisconstantpursuitofexternalpower,whichinourcareersoftenlookslikegettingapromotionor,youknow,gettingatitleorwhatever,moremoney,thatpursuitofexternalpowerisusuallydependentonourconnectiontoourinternalpower.AndwhenIthinkaboutinternalpower,whatIfocusoninmypracticewithpeopleishowwemakeuseofourinternalresources,ourtime,ourattention,ourintention,andourenergy.Dowespendourenergyworryingallthetimeordowespendourenergymakingthingshappen?

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Speaker 2

08:29

Thatchoiceisaninternalresource.Andthepeoplewhotendtoachieveexternalpowerandmaintainitandfindsatisfactioninit.Thosepeopletendtohaveadecentrelationshipwiththeirinternalpower.Theycontroltheirenergy.

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Speaker 2

08:45

Theycontroltheirtime.Theycontroltheirintentionandtheirattention.ButwhatI'venoticed,particularlybringingitbacktothegenderdimension,isthatwomenareoften,AndIthinkit'sbecausethestoryofthatgenderstorythroughtimeItalkedabout,youknow,betweenmenandwomen,therelationshipwomenhavehadhistoricallywithexternalpowerisfundamentallybroken.Ourexternalpowerhasbeentakenawayfromus,Youknow,becausewewereproperty,becausewewereowned,becausewedidn'thavetherighttohaveabankaccount.

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Speaker 2

09:21

Youknow,mymotherdidn'thavearighttohaveabankaccount,madeherdivorcereallyhardforher.Sothis,thisrelationshipwithexternalpowerhasbeenlegallybrokenforsomanywomen,anditstillisinalotofplacesintheworld,asyouknow.Sobecausetheexternalpowerhasbeentakenawayfromus,alotofushaveabrokenrelationshipwithourinternalpower.Webelievesincewecan'thaveexternalpower,wecan'tcontrolourinternalresourcesoftime,attention,intention,ourenergy.

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Speaker 2

09:53

It'snotourstocontrol.Ourjobistogiveofourselvessomuchthatwecomelast.AndwhatI'velearned,youask,whathaveIlearned?AndIsawitinmyownlife,andI'veseenitinevery1ofmyclients,menandwomen,bytheway.

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Speaker 2

10:12

Whenwegetintouchwithandstarttoownanauthenticrelationshipwithourinnerpower,evenifit'sstillalittlebroken,wewereallalittlebroken.Butwhenwestarttoconnectwithourinnerpower,externalpowerbecomesaccessibletous.Wecanimaginehavingit.Wecanactuallywantit.

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Speaker 2

10:36

Wecantakeactionsmoreeffectivelytogetit.Andwhenwearebeingtreatedunfairly,unequallyandequitably,wehavetheinnerstrengthtowalkawayandcreateboundaries.Andquiteoftenthepeoplewho'vebeenwithholdingpowerfromusexternallydecidetogiveittousifwe'rereallygoodatwhatwedo.Andsoit's,itseemsantitheticalthattogetexternalpower,youneedtogetintouchwithyourinternalpower.

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Speaker 2

11:04

Butit'sabsolutelytrue.Andit'sabsolutelytrueforeveryonethatI'veeverworkedwithofeithergender.ButforthereasonsImentioned,mentendtohavealittlemoreaccessibilitytotheirinternalpower.Theygivethemselvespermissiontohaveinternalpowerinawaythatalotofwomendon'torfeelguiltyaboutorwithholdfromthemselves.

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Speaker 2

11:26

Andsomyworkwiththem,that'swhyIcallmycompanyinpowercoachingisit'sallaboutseekingwhateveryou'relookingforintheworldwhenitcomestopower,whichmayjustbethepowertohaveacontroloveryourlifeandyourcareerinawaythatbringsyoujoyandmeaning,istogetintouchwithwhateveraspectofyourinternalpoweryou'rewithholdingfromyourselfasthefirststeptothatexternalsuccess.

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Speaker 1

11:54

Thankyou.Thankyou.Thankyouforthatthoroughresponse.

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Speaker 1

11:59

AndYouansweredmynextquestionpartially,butIamgoingtoaskyoufordetails.Howcanwomenrestoretheirinternalpower?Howcanwerestorethatinternalpower?Andmaybejustgiveusafewsteps,thefirst2stepsthatwecantaketoensurethereisrestoration.

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Speaker 2

12:34

Wow,whatanimportantquestion.LetmeseeifIcancomeupwithsomethingsimple,becauseasyouknow,it'scomplicated.Ilove,bytheway,youranalogyintheopeningaboutthetapestry,youknow,thetapestryofgender.

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Speaker 2

12:49

Andinaway,thisisaninternaltapestry,youknow,we'realwaysweavingourinternalself,youknow,we'recreatingourinternalself,we'reremakingourinternalselfeachtimeweretellournarrative.Andweneedtokeepretellingournarrativetokeepremakingourselves.Buttoyourquestion,youknow,howcanwerestoreourrelationshipwiththatinternalpower?Ithinkthatit'sdifferentfordifferentpeoplebecausethatbreakisdifferent.

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Speaker 2

13:16

However,1thingthatiscommonissimplytheabilitytogetintodialoguewithyourinnervoice.Youknow,ourexternalworld,allournotificationsonourphonesandeverythingaroundusistryingtodistractusfromourinternalvoice.Andyetourinternalvoiceholdstheclues.AndwhenIsaytheclues,Imeanthat,youknow,ourinternaldialogue,weoftenhearaboutthatlittlegremlinonourshoulder,youknow,theinnercriticthat'stryingtotearusdownandThat'saveryrealdynamicformenandforwomenforwomen.

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Speaker 2

13:59

It'sveryDebilitatingalotoftimesbecausethemenalsohaveaninnervoiceofconfidencemoreoften,notalways,butmoreoftenthanwomendo.Andyoucan'tretellastoryyoudon'tknow.Soifyoucan'thearwhatyourinnercriticoryourinnervoiceissaying,youcan'tunderstanditinthewayyoumightwanttochangeitthewayyoumightbeabletochangeitauthentically.AndwhatImeanbythatisWecannotbelievesomethingwedon'tbelieveandwecan'tnotbelieveanything.

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Speaker 2

14:35

WehavetobelievesomethingSowecan'tretellastory.Wecan'treviseastorythatwedon'tunderstandsofirstwehavetohearitandunderstanditwhichisoftenpainfulAndthenwegetintodialoguewithit,andthenwebegintochangeit.Thenwebegintoretellit.Sothistakesmanyforms,mindfulness,goingonyogaretreats,journalingtoyourself,takingtimealoneinthewoodssometimes.

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Speaker 2

15:07

There'ssomanywaystoaccessitthatthere'snosimpletruthandit'sdifferentforeachofus.ButwhatIwillsayismanypeoplefindaccessingthatvoice,thatinternalvoice,veryfrighteningbecausethatinternalvoicehasbeenignoredandpushedawayandpusheddownforsolongthatwhenitgetsachancetotalk,it'sjustkindofspewing.Andalotofpeoplethinkit'stheirauthenticselfspewing.It'snot,it'sjustavoiceinyoutryingtotellyouthingsthatwantyoutoknow.

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Speaker 2

15:38

Butwhenyou'reabletogetintodialoguewithit,andthisiswhyjournalingisalsooftenaveryusefultoolforavarietyofreasons.Whenyougetintodialoguewithit,itstartstellingyouthingsandthenyouaskitwhyitthinksthatanditstartstellingyouthattoo.Andprettysoonyou'reonthisreallyinterestingjourneytounderstandwhyyouarewhoyouareandhowyoucametobethatway.Andespeciallywiththeguidanceofacoachoratherapistorjustaverygoodfriendwho'sveryunderstanding,whenyoubegintoverbalizethisforyourself,youbegintohaveaccesstothatinnerbreak,butalsotheinnersourcesofpowerthatarejustsittingtherewaitingforyoutoaccessthembecausebutyou'veneverlooked.

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Speaker 2

16:23

SosotheshortanswerthatIjustgavelongisthatit'sgettingintodialoguewithyourinnerself.Andforsomeofus,thisiseasierthanothers.Andforsomeofus,it'salmostaphysicalthingandothers,it'samuchmoreemotionalandintellectualthing.It'sdifferentforeverybody,butgettingintoarelationshipwithyourselfisthefirststep.

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Speaker 1

16:45

Thankyou.Ifmoreofusdevelopthatrelationshipwithourselves,wouldwebebetterequippedtomanagethegenderstereotypes,thegenderbiases,thegenderdiscriminationsthatwefaceonadailybasis?

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Speaker 2

17:16

That'saleadingquestion,soI'llsayyes.AndIcangiveyousomeexamples.AndI'lljustbeupfrontwithmyapproachtostereotype,genderorotherwise.

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Speaker 2

17:33

But,youknow,Iandalotofmyclientsfacestereotypes.Wefacedoublestandards.Wediscoverthematdifferentpointsintime,right?Indifferentways.

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Speaker 2

17:48

Andthemomentyoudiscoverthatyouarethequote,victimofastereotype,it'saverydisempoweringfeeling,isn'tit?Becauseparticularlyifthatstereotypehastodowiththingsyoudon'tcontrol,thecolorofyourskin,thegenderyoupresentas,unlessyou'vemadeanefforttopresentasadifferentgender,theagethatyouare,eventhoughyou'retryingnottobeold,youknow,BecauseIcantellyoufrompersonalexperienceafterawhile,someofthoseeffortsjustdon'tpayoff,right?It'sjustyouaretheageyouare.Andsothemomentyoufindoutyou'reavictimofageismorracismorsexisminanyoftheirforms,themorebenignorthemore,themorecriminal.

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Speaker 2

18:38

It'sinthatmoment,you'rekindoflike,OhmyGod,whatcanIdo?Ican'tdoanything.II'mpowerlesstofightthis.That'skindofanormalreaction.

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Speaker 2

18:47

Andyetthere'salwayswaystoaddressitthataremoreempowering.Buttofindthose,youhavetolookatyourselfandsay,Whatwouldbeempoweringtome?Justbecausesomethingisempoweringtosomebodyelsedoesn'tmeanit'sempoweringtome.I'llgiveyouanexample.

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Speaker 2

19:11

WhenIwasmid-career,IhitwhatIthoughtwasaglassceiling.IwaskindofataseniormanagementlevelandIwantedtogoforaVPjob,avicepresident'sjob,andIdidn'tgetit.AndIlookedatallthepeoplewhowereoperatingatthatseniorlevelinthecompany.AndIjustrealized,Idon'tthinkIwanttobethereanyway.

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Speaker 2

19:39

IthinkIcouldfigureouthowtogetthereandbesuccessfulthere,butIdon'tthinkI'dlikewhoIwouldhavetobecometobetherebecausethosepeoplearesharks.They'reeatingeachotheraliveevery,everystaffmeeting,youknow,they're,they're,they'rejust,they'rebeingunpleasant.They'rebackstabbingeachother.I'mlike,Idon'twanttobethatperson.

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Speaker 2

20:02

Soatthatpointinmycareer,theempoweringthingIdidformyselfwastoquit.Iwentout,Ibecameaconsultant.Iwentoutonmyown.Isaid,screwthiscorporatething.

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Speaker 2

20:14

Iamgonnatakeownershipofmycareer.I'mnotgoingtoletthemmakemeintosomeoneIdon'twanttobe.I'mout.Anditwasactuallyaveryempoweringmoveforme.

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Speaker 2

20:26

IdiscoveredthatIwasmorevaluableonthemarketthanIthoughtIwas.Igothiredbackbythesamecompanyasacontractorforlike,youknow,3quartersofthesalaryandhalfthehours,youknow,my,mylifestylegotbetter.Itwasreallyempowering.AndyetItalkedtoalotofmyclientsthesedayswhothinkthey'rehittingaglassceiling.

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Speaker 2

20:46

AndmyadvicetothemisverydifferentbecauseIrealizenowthingsIdidn'tknowthen,includingthefactthattheglassceiling,thestorywetellourselvesisit'sasexistplot,right?Thatallthemenandthewomenwhoactlikemenatthetoparejusttryingtokeepthewomenout.That'swhatorblackpeopleoutorpeoplewhoarenotlikethemout,right?It'slikewewanttoseeitasanexclusionduetobias.

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Speaker 2

21:17

AndIabsolutelybelievethere'sbiasthere.Youknow,thereissuchathingastheclubatthetop.However,havingnowprogressedinmycareerandhelpedalotofotherpeoplecorrectprogressintheircareer,Ialsoseethattheglassceilingscreensoutpeopleofallkindswhodon'tunderstandthewayyouhavetoworkatthemostseniorlevels.It'snotaboutdoingthings,it'saboutmakingdecisions.

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Speaker 2

21:44

It'snotaboutproducingthings,it'sabouttakingriskintelligently,right?Understandingthecomplexityoftheorganizationandthestrategicrequirementsonitandbeabletogetoutoftheweedsandlookatthathigherlevel,lookoutintothemarket,lookatthecustomersandallthedifferentstakeholdersanddecidewhat'sthepathforwardforourorganization.Andthentosortoffightthebattleswithyourpeersandwitheverybodyelsetogetthosethingsdone.Andit'shardwork.

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Speaker 2

22:17

Andsotheglassceilingtometodaymeanssomethingdifferentthanitdidthen.AndIthinktoyourquestionforalotofmyclients,youknow,formehittingtheglassceilingIhitorasIperceiveditwastoquit.Andforalotofmyclients,that'ssometimestrue.Butsometimesthemostempoweringthingtheycandoischallengethemselvestogetoutoftheweeds,tolearnnewskillstolearntobestrategictolearntothinkoutsidethebox,tolearntocareaboutthecustomersandtheinvestorsandthemarketasawholeandexpandtheirviewandhaveabiggervision.

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Speaker 2

23:00

Thatturnsouttobethemostempoweringthingtheycando.Andso,youknow,there'sjustadifferentanswerforeverybody.Andthequestioncomesdownto,whatisitthatyouperceiveisyourfearinanyparticularpointintime?Andwhatisthethingyoucandomostproactivelyandmostauthenticallythatyouwanttodo?

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Speaker 2

23:27

WhenIgotoutofthat,whenIquit,IwantedtobeabettermothertomychildrenbecausetheyweresmallandIfeltlikeIwasbeingtakenadvantageof,butIalsowantedtoworkandIwantedtomakeadifferenceinorganizations.Soasacontractor,Ifoundawaytodoboth.Ihaveclientstodaywhoalsoaremothersandwanttobebettermothersandtheytellthemselvesadifferentstory.Theysay,youknowwhat,Icanbeeffectiveatthetop.

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Speaker 2

23:51

Icanbeinthetreetops.Icantakecontrolofmyscheduleandbeabletobethereformychildren.AndIcanlearntocommunicatewithinvestorsinsuchawaytheywanttogivemycompanymoney.Andthentheygodothat.

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Speaker 2

24:08

Andtheystartoperatingabovetheglassceiling.Neither1ofthosestrategies,mineormyclientsIjustdescribed,iswrongorbetter.It'sjusttheright1attherighttimeforwhatwewantinourlivesandwhat'simportanttousandwhatourvaluesareandwhatourchoicesarethatwe'refacing.Andeachofuswillcomeupagainstotherchoicesinthefuturethatgiveusoptions.

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Speaker 2

24:31

Soaslongaswe'remakingthatchoiceandit'salignedwithwhoweareandwhatwewantforourselvesandourlives,it'sempowering.It'slessaboutwhatyoudoandmoreabouthowandwhyyoudoit.Doesthatanswerthequestion?I'mnotsure,Iwanderedabit.

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Speaker 1

24:46

Sure,it'sfine,Youdid.Someoneaskedmeaquestion,andIamgoingtoposethatquestiontoyou.Shesaidtome,asawomanwhoisnotintouchwithherinnerpowerordon'thavethatrelationship,herquestionishowdoIfunctioneffectivelyinamale-dominatedworkenvironment?

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Speaker 1

25:26

AndItoldherafterthisepisode,I'llanswerher.So

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Speaker 2

25:37

helpme.Sowhatisitthattoldyoushewasnotintouchwithherinnerpower?

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Speaker 1

25:45

Shehasidentifiedthatshe,shehasabrokenrelationshipwithherself.

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Speaker 2

25:52

Okay.Well,I'lljust,I'lltellyouwhattendstocomeupwiththewomenIknowwhoexpresssomethingsimilar,whichisgoingbacktostoriesandnarrativesandthestoriesandnarrativesthattendtobegendered.There'salotofthingsthataregenderedinourworld,ourstereotypesaboutleadership,forexample.Butwhenyou'reatthatfundamentallevel,sowhatyoudescribeashersituation,that'safundamentalquestionanditreallycomesdowntopowerandourrelationshipwithpower.

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Speaker 2

26:37

Andmenareoftenboys,littleboys,areofteninstilledwithanarrativethatsaysyou'repowerfulandyoucanbeanythingyouwant.Whenyougetdown,youknow,falldown,skinyourknees,getupanddoitagain,eventuallyyou'llsucceed.Andlittlegirlsoftenhearadifferentmessage,althoughthat'schanging,thankgoodness.Buteventodayinthesocialmessagesweget,theculturalmessagesweget,themediamessagesweget,wegetmessagesthatwe'repowerfulifblank.

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Speaker 2

27:14

You'repowerfulifyou'reliked,ifyou'reapprovedof,ifothers,especiallymen,wantyou.Sowomenoftengetthismessagethattheirpowerderivesfromexternalsources,butthatgivestheexternalsourcespoweroverthem.Anditleadstobehaviorslikeneedingtobesoperfectthatyouoverworkyourselfandyouworktwiceashardaseverybodyaroundyou.Andyoudon'taskforcreditbecauseaskingforcreditisnotseenaspolite.

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Speaker 2

27:50

Youwaitforpermission.Youdon'thaveavisionforyourself.Youjustexecuteeverybodyelse'svision.Theseareallbehaviorsthatgoalongwithnotfeelinglikeyou'regivingyourselfpermissiontojustbepowerfulbecauseofwhoyouare.

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Speaker 2

28:05

Andsoinamale-dominatedenvironment,likethewomanyou'retalkingabout,thesestoriesaboutpowerareonsteroids,becausethemale-dominatedcultureissayingmenarepowerfuljustbecausetheyexistinamalebody,right?AndtheantithesisofthatisthatwellWomeneitheraren'tpowerfulorhavetoprovetheirpowerorhavetoearntheirpowerbybeinglikedapprovedofetcOrworking10timesashardnottwiceashardifyouwantpoweryougottowork10timesashard.Sothefirstthingtodoistoidentifyforher,forsomeonelikethat,youknow,whatarethebehaviorsthatshemostexhibitsthatfeedintothatnarrative?Issheaperfectionist?

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Speaker 2

28:55

Issheworkingtwiceashard?Isshewaitingforpermission?Isshenothavingherowncareergoalsbecauseshe'sjusthopingthatherbosswilltellherwhathercareergoalsshouldbe.And,youknow,somewomenwaitforallthosethings,andsomewomendon't.

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Speaker 2

29:13

Butthere'susuallysomebehavioralexpressionofthisinnernarrativethatsays,I'monlypowerfulifblank.Andwhenyoucanputtogetherthenarrativethatdisempowersyouwiththebehaviorthatdisempowersyou,Youcanstarttoexplorechangingthenarrativeandthebehaviortogetherandprettysoonyoucanknittogetherthere'ssomethingthatfeelspowerful,authenticallypowerful.Andhere'sthekeytoit.Takeabeliefthat'sdisempowering.

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Speaker 2

29:50

I'mnoteducatedenough.Idon'thaveenoughdegrees.Thatmaybetrue.Youmaybesurroundedbypeoplewhohavealotofdegrees.

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Speaker 2

30:01

Andinsomeways,it'struethatyou'renotaseducatedastheyare.Butthere'sanothertruthsittingnexttothat.Inmycase,whenIranupagainsttheeducationthing,IthoughtIneededtogogetanotherdegree,youknow?Ifoundatruthwhichwas,butIamexperiencedenough.

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Speaker 2

30:21

Ihavebeenaroundablockor2.Iknowsomethings.SoitmaybetruethatI'mnotaseducatedasIcouldbe,butit'salsotruethatI'mexperiencedenoughforalltheworkthatIdo.Andthere'sthatNativeAmericanparable,whichI'mgonnabotchbecauseIdon'tremembertheexact,we'rewalkingwith2wolves,1thattearsusupandtheotherthatprotectsus.

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Speaker 2

30:44

Andthe1thatwinsisthe1wefeed.Sowhenweleanintonotbeingeducatedenoughornotbeingblankenough,wejustfeedwhattearsusapart.Butwhenwesaythat'strueandIchoosetopayattentionto,togivemyenergy,togivemyattentiontothatwolfthatprotectsme,thatIamexperiencedenough,thatI'msmartenough,thatI'mintuitiveenough,thatI'mdedicatedenough,whateveryoufillthatblankwith,youleanintothat.Nowyou'vegotanauthenticconnectiontosomethingthatmatterstoyouthatmeismeaningfultoyouandthatfeedsyouandifyoujusttakealittletimeeverydayandactuallyLetyourselfbeinthatenergy.

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Speaker 2

31:29

LetyourselfhaveitpeoplegiveyouacomplimentDon'tpushitawayactuallyacceptitandseewhatitfeelsliketobelievemaybethatcouldbetrue.Themoreyoujustspendtimefeelingthosethings,themoreaccessibleitbecomes.Andprettysoon,itdoesn'tmatterwhetheryou'reinamaledominatedenvironmentornot,youactuallyhaveaconnectiontothatpowerthat'swithinyou.Nowsometimesyougettothatpointandyou'relike,Idon'twanttobeinamale-dominatedenvironmentanymore.

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Speaker 2

31:58

I'mleaving.Butoftenitjustgivesyouabufferagainstsomeofthedoublestandardsthatyou'reprobablyupagainst.Andwecantalkaboutthosebecausethere'salotofthem.Itcangiveyouaninternalstrengthtosortofbethoughtfulaboutitinsteadofbeingangryorreactionaryorjustrunningandhidingunderaholeeverytimeyourunintoadoublestandardthatdoesn'thelpyou.

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Speaker 2

32:23

Andyouneedthatinnerstrength.Andyoualsoneedfriendsyoucanventto,ofcourse,becauseinjusticeisfundamentallyangeringandweneedaplacetodealwiththat.Butjustlookingforthepositivetruthsthatsitnexttothenegativetruthsaboutwhoyouareanddecidingthatthosearevalidandputtingyourattentionandenergyintoitcangiveyouenoughofaperspectiveaboutyourownpowerthatyoucanseeamale-dominatedenvironmentoranyotherkindoftoxicenvironmentthatdoesn'tsupportyouandhelpyoumakebetterchoices.

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Speaker 1

33:00

Thankyou.Iwouldlikeustotalkaboutthedoublestandards,butwhenyoumentionseekingpermissionfromthebosstotellherabouthercareergoals,2personalincidentsjustresurfacedforme.IrememberedwhenIwasplanningtogototheUniversityofGuyana,Iwantedtopursueeconomics,butmymentorandpastorguidedmeintosocialwork.

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Speaker 1

33:37

WhenIcametotheUS,Iamworkinginthenonprofit.Mygoalistobecomeasocialworker.Andmymalesupervisorandmentoratthattimesaidtome,youhavesuchgreatadministrativeskills,whypursuesocialwork?AndDana,wouldyoubelievethatIveeredoffmypath?

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Speaker 1

34:12

Sowhenyoumentionedthat,those2incidentspoppedintomymindandI'mlike,wow,thisissorealandandI'msurethisisrealforalotofwomenbecauseofthewayweweresocializedandthewaymenwerereveredinourlivesandtheabsenceofmalefiguresalsoinourliveswhohavebeenpersonslikemefromasingleparenthome.Soyoucausemetoreally,I'llhavetoprocessthatsothatitdoesn'thappenathirdtime,hopefully.

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Speaker 2

35:09

Letmedigressevenfurther,becausethere'sadynamicherethatIamverycuriousaboutandIamtryingtounderstand.AndI'llgiveyoutheunderstandingIhavetoday,buthonestly,Ithinkthere'ssomanydimensionstothisthatyouandI,alotofotherpeoplewillbeexcavatingitforalongtime.Anditcomestomearoundtheideaofvision,havingavisionforyourselforfortheworld.

S2

Speaker 2

35:41

Thatisthevisionthing.Ourbusinessliteratureisfulloftheneedforcompaniestohavevisions,forgreatleaderstohavevisions.Andinfact,I'vecometounderstandthroughtheleadershiplensasanexecutivecoachworkingwithleaders,I'vecometounderstandthatthevisionthingisveryrealfromthestandpointthatgoingbacktothatglassceiling,thepeopleonthetop,andI'mgoingtobringitbacktocareerinaminute,butthepeopleatthetophavetohaveavisionofhowtheywanttheorganization,theworld,themarkettobedifferentthanitistodayinawaythattheirorganizationcanthrive.Andthat'stheirwork,whichistohaveavisionofhowthingscanbebetterandtohaveanunderstandingofallthewaysthatthingsaren'tbettertodayandhaveaplantogetusfromheretothere.

S2

Speaker 2

36:35

Andthefictionisthatanybodycanseethefuture,thatanybodycouldhaveaplanthatwon'tgetscrewedup.Theworkisn'thavingavisionandaplanandthendealingwiththemessyrealityoftryingtostayalignedwithitenoughtoachievesomeofthevision.Butthisrequiresustogointotheunknown,tohaveconfidenceinourselves,totakerisks,totakerisksonbehalfofotherpeople,alltheemployeesthatworkforus.There'salotofanxietythatcancomewiththis.

S2

Speaker 2

37:10

There'salotthatcangowrong.Andyouhavetobelieveinthevision,bewillingtosayyou'rewrongsometimesandveer.Andit'sanartform.It'saskill.

S2

Speaker 2

37:23

It'saleadershipskill.Andagain,menhaveheldthosepositionsdoingthosethings.Soweknowwhatitlookslikeformentohavevisionsaboutthecompany,abouttheworld,andtotakeboldactionandtakeriskstoachieveit.Therearenotverymanywomenupthere,andthewomenwhodotendtogetthereareoftenreallygooddoers.

S2

Speaker 2

37:45

They'rereallygoodadministrators.They'rereallygoodatmakingthingshappen.Andit'sinterestingtomewhenImeetwithwomeneitherontheleadershiptrackorjustintheircareer,likeyouarticulated,youknow,you'retryingtodecidewhattodowiththe,whatdegreetogetorwhattodowithyourdegreeorwhattodowithyourdegree,orwhattodowithyourcareer,especiallywhenyouwanttohaveafamilyoryouhaveotherpersonalresponsibilities,itcanbecomeverychallenging.Ialwaysaskthem,well,whatisyourvisionforsuccessinlifeorinyourcareeroratjustthenextstep?

S2

Speaker 2

38:24

Ifyou'reamanager,doyouwanttobeaseniormanager?Ifyou'revicepresident,doyouwanttobeCEO?Andit'sfascinatingtomethatthemenalwayshaveananswer.Andthewomenmaybehalfthetimehaveananswer.

S2

Speaker 2

38:39

AndwhenIprobe,alotofthetime,thewomenwhodon'thaveananswer,theiransweris,well,I'vealwaysjustdefinedmysuccessbywhodoIhelp?AmIhelpingmychildren,myhusband,mycustomers?It'salwaysaboutwhoIhelp.Socomingbacktothatpermissiontohaveyourowninternalvision,whichvisionisaninternalpower,agoal,goalsareinternalpowers.

S2

Speaker 2

39:16

Andifyoutakeitallthewaybacktochildhood,andifyouandIhadmoretime,I'dbecuriousaboutyouryourchildhoodexperiences.ButIthinkthatboysandmenarejustaskthatquestionmoreoften.What'syourvision?Whatdoyouwant?

S2

Speaker 2

39:34

Forgetvision.Whatdoyouwant?Iactuallydon'tremembergettingthatquestionaskedofmeverymuchwhenIwasachild.WhatIwantedwasn'tnearlyasimportantaswhatotherpeoplewantedforme.

S2

Speaker 2

39:48

Anditsoundslikeyouhaveasimilarexperience,perhaps.Andsowhennobodyasksyouwhatyouwant,andthennobodytreatstheanswertoyourquestions,tothatquestionseriously,youkindofdevelopastoryinyourheadthatit'snotforyoutowant.It'sforyoutoserve.Andmanyofusdogetalotofjoyoutofserving.

S2

Speaker 2

40:10

There'snothingwrongwithserving,butalotofthetimesourserviceismostmeaningfulwhenit'sbecauseit'sinserviceofourvisionofabetterworldforourselvesandotherpeople.Andthat'swherethepowerofservicereallycomesfrom.Butwedon'taskourselvesthatoftenenough.Wedon'taskeachotherthatoftenenough,andwedon'ttreatouranswerswithenoughseriousness.

S2

Speaker 2

40:37

Andthere'salwayssomebodyelsewhosevisionismoreimportant.Andsowedon'tdevelopthehabit.Andit's,Ithinkthere'salsoalotoftimewomengettoapointintheircareerwheretogetabovetheglassceilingtooperateatahigherleadershiplevel,theyreallydoneedtobeabletohaveavision,articulateavision,defendavision,taketherisk,dotheriskanalysisforavision,anditfeelssoscaryandsounfamiliartheydon'tdoit,andthentheyarefrustratedthattheycan'thavetheleadershipauthoritythattheywant.SoThiswholevisionthing,Ithink,isreally,reallyimportantandunderappreciatedwhenitcomestojusttheleadershipgapweseebetweenthegenders.

S2

Speaker 2

41:28

Andyourexperienceisaperfectexample.

S1

Speaker 1

41:33

Thankyou.Thankyou.Let'stouchonthedoublestandardsbecausethat'sveryimportant.

S1

Speaker 1

41:41

AndIknowyouhavealottosharewithus.AndIhopethatyoucandoit.

S2

Speaker 2

41:51

Briefly.Well,letmejustsaythis.SoIamjustabouttopublishanarticlethatismyattempttologallthedoublestandardsIfoundaboutwomenintheworkplacein1place.BecausethedoublestandardthatIheardaboutmostoftenandmostwomenthatItalktoareveryfamiliarwithisthedoublestandardthatmencanbeaggressive,butwomencan'tbe.

S2

Speaker 2

42:29

AndMaleleadersaresupposedtobeaggressive,butwhenawomanisapartofherleadershipstyleisperceivedasaggressive,thenshe'stheBword.Andthatistrue.There'splentyofresearchthatsaysthat'strue.Butwhat'sinterestingisit'snotquitethatsimple.

S2

Speaker 2

42:46

Andthesimpleversionofitisthatmenareexpectedtobe,thewordisagentic,meaninghaveagency.Somaleleadersneedtohaveagency.Theyneedtobeindependent.Theyneedtohavevision.

S2

Speaker 2

42:59

Theyneedtobeabletomakedecisionsanddrivetowardsactionsandsaynoandsay,thisiswhatwe'regoingtodo,youknow,pointatthehillandgo.Andwhentheydothat,they'rerespectedasleaders.That'sthestereotype.Andthat'sthegenericleadershipstereotype.

S2

Speaker 2

43:17

Womenareexpectedfirstandforemosttobecommunal,tobesocial,tobecollaborative,tobesupportive.And,butthatdoesn't,that'snot,that'soutsidetheleadershipstereotype.That'sthewomanstereotype.Womenleadersneedtobecommunalandagentic,buttheycannotbeagenticinawaythatmakesthemappearnon-communal.

S2

Speaker 2

43:42

Sothesuccessfulwomenleadersareboth,andyettheyfindawaytobeagenticinawaythat'sstillcommunal.Andthisisaveryhardthingtodo.Thisisdifficultterritorytonavigate.Butthere'splentyofwomenwholeaderswhodoitandtheydoitbybeingauthentic.

S2

Speaker 2

43:59

ThecatchisMengetapassonbeingcommunal.Theydon'tneedtobecommunaltobeperceivedasgoodleaders.Andmatteroffact,ifthey'retoocommunal,thenthey'rekindofperceivedasweakleaders.Andsothat'saperfectexampleofthedoublestandardthatwomenface.

S2

Speaker 2

44:15

Butthere'sbeenalotofresearchinthelast10or15yearsthatshowthat'sjustthetipoftheiceberg.Sothere'sdoublestandardsaroundtakingcredit.Youknow,menareexpectedtotakecreditfortheirachievements.Womenareexpectedtogivecredittotheirteams.

S2

Speaker 2

44:31

Andiftheyonlytakecreditanddon'tgivecredit,mencangetawaywiththat,womencannot.There'sarecentstudywefoundwhereinscientificandengineeringprofessions,womenwhopubliclycommunicateabouttheirworkareperceivedasbraggingandthey'retryingtoselfaggrandizesothatappreciationfortheiraccomplishmentsisdiminishedversusmenwhocanjustdeclarethatthey'reGod'sgifttoeverything,andeverybodybelievesit,right?Sowomenwhowanttogetrecognitionfortheirworkhavetofigureouthowtodoitinawaytheywon'tbeperceivedasbragging.Andagain,thiscomesbackto,well,maybeIwon'tgopresentthatpaper,OrmaybeI'lltakeapanelinsteadofakeynote.

S2

Speaker 2

45:19

Andsotheirprofilesaren'traisedasmuch.Thereareatonofage-relateddoublestandards.Youngwomenaresupposedtobesexy,butnottoosexy.Oldwomenaresupposedtobeyounglooking,butnotyoungacting.

S2

Speaker 2

45:36

Grayhaironawomanisasignshe'soverthehill.Grayhaironamanmeanshe'scomingintohisprimeandwecantrusthim,right?IfThere'sjust,there'snoendofit.Andunfortunately,inadditiontojustbeingdifficulttonavigate,sometimesitjusthasatruecost.

S2

Speaker 2

45:53

Motherhoodgetspenalizedfinancially.Women'ssalariesgodownwhentheyhavechildren.Men'ssalariesgoupbecausenowthey'reperceivedasthebreadwinnerandtheyhaveto,youknow,takehomethebacon,eveniftheirwifeismakingmoremoney.Sothere'sjustnoendofthesedoublestandards.

S2

Speaker 2

46:09

We'regoingtocatalogasmanyofthemaswecanfind.AndI'llsendyouthelinkifyouwanttoincludeitintheshownotes.But,youknow,whatthethingthatfinallydiditformetounderstandthiswasthat,youknow,thatquote,GingerRogersdideverythingFredAstairedidbutbackwardsandinhighheels.Isthat,youknow,whenIheardthatquote,Iwaslike,Ineverthoughtofitthatway.

S2

Speaker 2

46:32

IneverevensawGingerRogers.Howawfulisthat?Thatthatbeautiful,lovely,accomplishedwomanthatcoulddancebackwardsinheels,andkeepupwithFredAstaireandactuallyoutshinehimalotofthetimewasinvisibletomebecauseIwasfollowingtheculturalnarrativethatthemale,especiallyamalewhowasgraceful,wasthebee'sknees,thethingtobeamazedat.AndIthinkthat'sthechallengeofthedoublestandardiswehavetoseeit,buttoseeit,wehavetogetoutsidetheculturallensthatsays,ofcourse,themenarethebreadwinners.

S2

Speaker 2

47:10

Andmenaren'tthebreadwinnersnearlyasoftenastheyusedtobe.Andeveniftheyare,women'ssalariesnowmatter.Weneedadoubleincomeinalotofcasestoachievethelifestylethatiscomfortableinourworld.Andsogettingoutsidethedoublestandardmeansseeingit.

S2

Speaker 2

47:26

Andthenitmeanshelpingotherpeopleseeitandcomeupwithvocabularythathelpsotherpeopleseeitwithoutsuccumbingtodefensiveanger.Andthat'satrick.Becauseofcourseyouseethedoublestandard,you'reangry,youhavearighttobeangry.Butangerbyitself,especiallyreactiveanger,canbackfire.

S2

Speaker 2

47:44

Soyouhavetogetpastyouranger.Andthenyouhavetobeabletoarticulatewellwhatisthealternative?Andthatishard.SoforGingerRogersthealternativewasshewasdancingbackwardsandinhighheelsAndthat'samazing.

S2

Speaker 2

48:02

Let'sseeFredAstairedance.JustimagineFredAstairedancingbackwardsandheelsandyouunderstandwhatafeatsheperformed.Butinthecaseofthemotherhoodpenaltyandthefatherhoodbonus,Whatisthealternativetothat?Well,itcouldbe,youknow,thewomanwhojusttookonmotherhoodnowhasamanagementchallengeinherdailylifethatno1elsecanappreciateifthey'veneverbeenaparentandaprimaryparent.

S2

Speaker 2

48:36

Andwhatskillsdoesthatgiveherintheworkplace?1ofthebeststoriesthatI'veheardrecentlywasChristineLagarde,whoIthinksherunstheIMFnowandforalongtimeshewasrunningliketheEuropeanCentralBankin1ofthose2organizations.SheactuallyhadanHRpolicy,ahiringpolicychangedthatIfawomanwasoutoftheworkforceforlike2to4yearsbecauseofmotherhood,shewasgivencreditformanagementskillsbecauseChristineLagardewasamotherandsheknewwhatittooktomanageyourhomeandyourhouseholdandyourchildren.Andshesaid,youknowwhat,thosemothers,they'vegotskillsweneed.

S2

Speaker 2

49:21

Let'svaluethem.Let'sputtruevalueontheminthehiringprocess.Now,I'massumingshemadesuretherewaspayequitytheretoo.Butifourhiringpracticesshiftedsothatmotherhoodbecamereasontogivepeoplecreditfortheirmanagementabilities,Ithinkthatthemotherhoodbonusmightchangealittlebit.

S2

Speaker 2

49:45

Andthosearethekindofwaysthattotakeadoublestandardandtoretellthatstoryinawaythatshowshowvaluablethethingsthatthatstandardhasbeenundervaluingaretoourorganizationsandourbusinesses,atleastitgetsaconversationgoingthatneedstobehad.Andinthebestcases,itretellsanarrative.Butwe'vejustgottotacklethosethings1atatimewhenwefindthem.

S1

Speaker 1

50:11

Thankyou.Thankyou.Thankyousomuchforyourresponse.

S1

Speaker 1

50:15

Thankyouforyourtimehere.Andinclosing,wouldyouliketoleaveanythingwithourlisteneranyadditionalinformation?So

S2

Speaker 2

50:29

IguesswhatIwouldjustsayisthatweareallsubjecttostereotype,menandwomenateveryage.Someofthosestereotypesactuallyhelpusandsomeofthemdon't.Buttoknowandsomeofthemaregenderedandsomeofthemaren't,youknow,likeage,whichisgendered,butit'salsoafunctionofage.

S2

Speaker 2

50:55

Andthetrickistocenteronyourselfandyourpowerandwhat'simportanttoyouandwhatyouwant.Goingbacktothatvision,what'syourvisionforyourlifeinthenextperiodoftime?Andlookatthestereotypes,lookatthedoublestandards,lookattheunfairnessesthroughthelensofwhatyouwantwhatyouvaluewhat'simportanttoyouandwhatyouneedAndwhenyoudothatandyouownThosethingswhatyouwantwhatyouneedwhoyouareandwhatyouvaluewhenyouownityousaythisiswhereI'mcomingfromSomeofthosedoublestandardssomeofthosestereotypeswilljustbelessimportantandotherswillbemoreimportant.Andthatgivesyoufocus.

S2

Speaker 2

51:40

ThatgivesyouyourpathforwardtofigureouthowdoIgetwhatIwantandwhatIneedandwhatIvaluenavigatingtherealityofmyworldthat'sgoingtoeitherpreventmefromgettingthereorgivemethepathbeyondit.Andthenyou'vegotanactionplan.Andsogoandstartinsideandmoveout.

S1

Speaker 1

52:03

Well,Dana,thankyousomuch.Ibelievethatwewereabletounpicksomeoftheoldthreadsandweavesomenewpatternstogetheronthisepisodeofthegender,theAnythingGenderpodcast.AndIwannathankyouforyourcontributionandmayallthatyoudobesuccessful.

S1

Speaker 1

52:32

AndIhopeyoucanbraceuswithyourpresenceonceagain.Thankyou.

S2

Speaker 2

52:37

Thankyousomuch.Thankyouforhostingthisdialogue,notjustforme,butforallourlistenersandeverybodywhowilltouchthisinthefuture.

S1

Speaker 1

52:45

It'sVeryimportant.Great.Thankyou.