Carolyn Agaba: Championing Gender Equity in Finance

Sharmin converses with Carolyn Agaba, a seasoned professional championing gender equity in financial inclusion. The episode focuses on Financial Sector Deepening Uganda (FSDU) and its relentless pursuit to bridge the financial gap for underserved communities, with a particular emphasis on women. Carolyn shares her transition from engineering to impactful project management and her advocacy for gender-sensitive financial services. Discover the intricacies of overcoming cultural barriers and the collaborative efforts required to craft financial programs that truly empower women.

Sharmin:
[00:00:00 - 00:01:16]
 I'm Charmin Prince. I'm the host of anything Gender podcast and today we have a guest. And my guest is Carolyn Agaba. And Carolyn is a project and change management professional with 13 years working experience. She currently work in the nonprofit sector with FSDU and she's going to explain what that is, whose aim is to promote financial inclus Carlin consider herself a gender equity champion, both personally and professionally. Carolyn, welcome to anything Gender podcast. I don't know if you're aware, but this show was my Capstone project for the Gender Change Maker program, and I would like you to tell us more about yourself that wasn't included in the bio. And what does that acronym mean? 

Carolyn:
[00:01:19 - 00:02:56]
Okay, so just a correction. I haven't been with FSDU for 13 years. I'll explain. So I started working about 13 years ago and currently I work in the nonprofit sector at financial sector Deepening Uganda, which is a nonprofit that focuses on financial inclusion. So what that means is that we support projects and initiatives, provide technical assistance and grants to businesses that are trying to promote financial inclusion. This could be startups or any other partners that we work with that's in the private sector. We also work with public sector stakeholders. So we work with government entities like the bank of Uganda. We work with the Ministry of Finance. We work with other banks as well. So any entity that is in the financial sector and is also plays a role in financial inclusion. We consider these our partners and stakeholders. And as financial sector, depending which is FSD, our goal is to promote financial inclusion. And of course that brings in the gender lens. We are aiming for vulnerable groups or the under served communities to have access to financial products like loans, bank accounts, savings accounts, but also to provide funding for their small businesses. So generally that is what financial sector deepening does. 

Sharmin:
[00:02:57 - 00:02:57]
Okay. 

Carolyn:
[00:02:57 - 00:03:58]
And then a bit about myself. Like I said, I've been professionally, I've been working for about 13 years. I started off as an engineer, but my career has pivoted and I'm now majorly. I do have an MBA as well, but I consider myself professionally a bit of a generalist. I know a bit about everything, although my specialization is in project management. And personally I consider myself a creative and gender champion. Like you said, I'm passionate about all things gender, not just because I'm a woman, but I would say I'm passionate about all things to do with social justice and leaving no man behind us and any other person that is being left behind by this capitalist world we are living in. I consider myself an advocate and an ally for them. And that's just because of my personal politics and beliefs that all we have is each other. So we need help uplift each other in whichever way we can. 

Sharmin:
[00:04:00 - 00:04:04]
 What led you to become a gender champion? 

Carolyn:
[00:04:06 - 00:07:09]
I would say my journey with gender doesn't have a clear start. Unfinished like anyone else. You know, you come into the world living your life. Personally, I come from a privileged background, a good middle class family. So I can't say that my upbringing was tough. I generally had a very good childhood. I was raised by my mom because my dad passed very early on when I was young, so I didn't know him very well. So I would say because of my privilege and everything, I lived a comfortable life. But the older I grew, the more I started to realize that the world is not. It's unfair. Some. Some people much easier. And I think from my young age, I used to question what. Why are things the way they are? Why are some people okay and some are not okay in terms of life and the things they can afford, even in terms of mental well being? So it's a question that plagued my. I would say my inner spirit for a while. But when I really became focused on when I zeroed down on gender, on one of those things that was unfair and unjust in the world, or let me say gender inequality was when I became a mother, or around that time, I was to become. After giving birth. I think at the back of my mind, I always knew that there was gender inequality in the world. But I would say my privilege kind of may have shielded me from a lot of the effects of that. But then, you know, with motherhood, you really see the differences in terms of, say, how much work you're giving. Basically, at work, it starts at work, you know, when you want to take leave, when you're doing interviews, and you find that employers are concerned about if you're going to give birth, but then also the imbalance in care work when you rather not care. In our tradition here in Uganda, when a woman gives birth, she goes back to her mother's house and because the mother is going to nurse, tell teacher how to nurse, how to look after the baby. So, of course, then I realized, oh, there's a lot of things that women are expected to do, especially when they get married and become mothers that men are not expected to do. And this can have various impacts on their lives depending on what level of privilege they have, that agenda lens, because, you know, you're looking out for the marginalized in community, and women and children are usually the marginalized or the ones who have less access to financial services, even according to statistics. So professionally, I would say I became a gender champion when I joined FSDU, because I did see that, okay, this is also, these imbalances also play out in other sectors in the world. 

Sharmin:
[00:07:12 - 00:07:57]
Thank you. Thank you for that. And I am honored to hear you differentiate the difference between being a gender champion personally and professionally. And you expounded on the culture, the impact of culture on gender. But currently, what do you do as a gender champion to foster maybe equity, gender equity equality, raise awareness. What do you do as a gender champion for other women? 

Carolyn:
[00:08:00 - 00:09:25]
Professionally, what I do is financed by the, our main finder is the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. So they will give us a grant to design programs around financial inclusion. So what the gender champions at work, what our role is, is to ensure that the programs we design are gender inclusive. So we look out for things like, is sex disaggregated data being collected? Because that's the only way you know what's happening on ground in terms of women and men. Are the programs taking into consideration, are they gender representatives to the program? For example, if we are providing financing for SME's, are that small and medium enterprises? What percentage of those small and medium enterprises are women? Are our programs gender intentional? Are our target considerate of women? Are we specific that these programs that we design have to reach women? That whatever financing we provide has to reach women? So it's really essential to ensure that all the programs we design have a gender lens, be it in the research that we do, collecting sex disaggregated data, encouraging our partners to utilize sex disaggregated data, and also work closely with women, understand their challenges and make sure that they are being catered to in their financial products, and even setting our targets around gender and making sure that we are not gender blind. So that's what a gender champion does. 

Sharmin:
[00:09:27 - 00:09:39]
What are some of the common issues that you encounter with women while being a gender champion? 

Carolyn:
[00:09:41 - 00:11:28]
Common issues that women face that have come across. So I'll give an example, such as, so culture, we know that the man is taken to be the head of the home, the main decision maker. So you find that in instances where we are targeting women businesses and we are trying to get on ground and figure out where the women businesses are to give them financing, you find issues like them having to seek consent from their spouses, which can be, I think, is even mandatory in some cases, like opening a bank account if a woman is married. So that speaks to a lack of decision making power, then there are some communities where women have to hand over whatever income they make. So when we are looking at specific value chains, you'll find that maybe the women are the ones who go to the gardens and do the hard work of farming, and then it's the husbands who deal with the revenue part, where they buy, they go and sell, and then they get this income. And you find that there are circumstances where they are unlikely to handle or share some of this income with the lady, the women who basically did the hard work. So you find these are things that are happening at grassroots level and they impact our work. Because if you're trying to design programs where women have bank accounts, where women have access to loans, you have factor in the household dynamic. So when we are dealing with stakeholders having these workshops to understand the impact of our programs on ground, this is the kind of feedback we get, especially in rural areas, but not so much urban areas, you find that the household dynamics of who earns the income or who decides where the income goes or who owns property, these factors come into play as far as women are in, as far as women are able to access financial services. 

Sharmin:
[00:11:29 - 00:11:37]
How do you handle the impact of culture on your work as a gender champion? 

Carolyn:
[00:11:40 - 00:14:00]
Well, that's one of the things that is a puzzle that I think a lot of us in the nonprofit sector are trying to crack. We talk about gender norms. That's what we really call the culture norms. So the norms around gender that originate from culture. And we are usually faced with two options. Can we walk around them or can we fight them directly? So one, for example, can we involve the husbands, for example, when we are doing workshops on business training or I or loan management, as opposed to calling women only in the groups. So in Uganda, we have what we call savings and loans associations. In rural communities, more. So you find groups come together to save money and then borrow from each other. So you find that in these groups, a lot of the leadership is filled with men. For example, the chairperson, the secretary, the treasurer, those are usually Mendez. Some of these circles have very few women. So what happens is we ask ourselves, because this is now culture where a lot of leadership roles are for women, rather are for men, we ask ourselves, should we, as opposed to just calling women, say, for trainings on financial literacy or on borrowing and saving, we call the woman with her spouse. So in that case, we are trying to work around. We are acknowledging that the norms exist, that much as this woman may get financial literacy training, she doesn't actually have access to the income why not call her her husband and train them together and encourage them to work together? Then again, another scenario where we choose maybe to directly attack the norm, not attack in a negative sense, but to tackle it directly where we say, okay, let's create awareness amongst men and teach them about and encourage them to be more inclusive, encourage them to let their wives have some decision making power and some income. So now that becomes mindset change. But you find that mindset change is a longer route to take. And many times nonprofits are forced to maybe do a bit of both. Do some mindset change. I don't know if you've had programs like he for she encouraging men to uplift their women or to just do what we call household initiatives, talk to the household as a whole. Well, knowing that even if at the end of the day the decision maker is going to be the man, but at least you have empowered them with unnecessary knowledge. 

Sharmin:
[00:14:00 - 00:14:29]
Thank you for sharing that. And how, I don't want to say how easy, but with the introduction of mindshift set changed to men who were culturally socialized to be the head and the leaders, and then women coming into their spaces to teach their mindsets change. How receptive are they? 

Carolyn:
[00:14:31 - 00:15:59]
Yeah. So you find that sometimes these trainings have to be conducted by men. They may not be so receptive to, say, female trainers. So again, it, you'll find, like in some communities, they're receptive. They're receptive. But again, it varies. And I think this is another thing we are trying to understand as FSD, how deep do the gender norms go, what exactly we know about them, but more of, in an way, and also because, you know, we're Ugandans and, you know, ugandan culture, but we're trying to work also closely with other fsDs. So there are other financial sector deepenings in other countries and we have FSD Africa as well, and all of us are doing the same work. So what we are trying to do is come up with some kind of collaboration around gender, where we do research and find out how deep do these impacts, how deep do these norms, how entrenched are they? Because now we can't know if, for example, if we send female trainers to the field, the challenges they are having, sometimes they are received well, other times they are not. So we want to really ascertain in real terms the impact of this. But I would say from the feedback we are getting, it varies. Some communities are receptive, but you find somewhere you really can't expect a woman to do the trainings. And maybe you usually pair them so you get a female and a male to go into the communities to conduct these trainings. 

Sharmin:
[00:16:00 - 00:16:31]
Wow. Wow. Interesting. I am intrigued because I just love what I'm hearing. My question is, where do you see, or you mentioned research a lot. Have they, have any research been completed and what were the results thus far? 

Carolyn:
[00:16:33 - 00:18:17]
No. So for Uganda, no, we don't have research specifically for norms in, in Uganda and their impact on financial inclusion. I've seen studies by CGAP which have tackled norms in, I think it was Senegal and the impact of those on financial inclusion initiatives. So one of the things FSD Uganda wants to do is conduct similar studies specifically for our norms. Because you find, like in Uganda, in the urban areas, you may find people a little more that gender norms are not so entrenched, maybe because of education and exposure, but then the more you go into rural areas, you find more entrenched gender norms. And the norms that we know of are quite generic. You know, like I said, the man is ahead of the household. He has access to the income. But what we don't know is what is the actual impact of these norms on financial inclusion. So we have data that says that, for example, in Uganda, I think it's about almost the same number of men and women. Well, I don't want to misrepresent the facts. You find that there's more financial inclusion for men, whereby we're counting financial inclusion as people with access to bank accounts and women are less financially included. But then we're also trying to broaden this spectrum of what does financial inclusion mean? Is it being able to borrow? Is it being able to start a business? Or what exactly is it? And what we don't know now is the actual norms. What are the norms? And to define them in real terms and what's their impact? We don't have this study done yet, but we are in talks with CGAP and other FSD Africa to see if we can conduct such a study because it would benefit a lot of people in the financial services sector. 

Sharmin:
[00:18:19 - 00:18:37]
Interesting. And I mean, so many questions are going through my head. It's interesting to hear that there has been a research done in Senegal and have those findings been able to support what you're doing as a gender champion? 

Carolyn:
[00:18:39 - 00:20:16]
Yes, they have. They really have. Because I think, you know, it's. It's easy to underestimate the impact of gender norms on the work that you're doing. You can assume that, okay, because we gave this woman owned small business money, then the business will grow. But then you don't know what happens when she goes back to her home. You don't know what happens to the finances. You don't know who makes decisions on the business. And women's lives are impacted by so many other things as well, the children, school fees. So are they really using the money for the business, like the loan, the micro loans that we support, other platforms to give out? So, yeah, there's a lot happening, especially within the household, that can impact financial inclusion. And the more data we have on how it manifests, the better for us to design gender inclusive programs. So, for example, the research from Senegal, we haven't really. I can't say I've been able to use it because for me, what's missing is this is still a very different culture. Yes, some things are similar. I think in most societies, you'd say people look at men as the head of the home and that kind of thing. But then there are nuances in culture as well. There's also religion to factor into. So West Africa has also other religions, which Uganda is predominantly christian. So for me, what that research does is just to let me know that we need to dig deep, we need to get that data. It's actually very important research that needs. That needs to be done. 

Sharmin:
[00:20:18 - 00:20:23]
Okay. Anything else you want to share. 

Carolyn:
[00:20:29 - 00:20:31]
Generally or to do with. 

Sharmin:
[00:20:33 - 00:20:44]
Generally to do with gender, what you do? Where do you see yourself in two to three years as a gender champion? 

Carolyn:
[00:20:47 - 00:23:48]
Okay. So I think for me, my gender champion efforts are, yes, professional, but also much more so personal. Why? Because I feel like we can change so much, but we can start with our circles of influence. I mean, I'm a mother to a boy. I have a lot of friends who are Mendez, and of course, I do have female friends as well. But what I'm saying is that these things that we talk about, gender norms, beliefs around gender culture, they're not so far from us. They're in the person next to us. How are they raised? What do they think? What do they believe they may influence? My son. My son is five now, but he's growing up in a patriarchal world, you know, so I can't assume he's going to grow up into gender conscious, you know, person. I mean, he's my son. Yes. And I'll do my best. But, you know, there is nature versus nature. You know, which one will win. So I would say when I call myself a gender champion, work is a bonus. I am more so, especially in my personal life, in the conversations I have with the men in my life, especially. What are they just to tell them that, look, here, life can be different. We don't have to be in this power struggle. We can actually co ex. You don't need women to be submissive. You don't need. And also for women to also emancipate themselves from whatever we've been taught growing up about ourselves, how we should behave, how we should be submissive. So I live, breathe. I live and breathe gender equality because I've seen how it can affect me in the workplace. You know, how maybe your appraisal will. The way your boss appraises you may be different from the way he would appraise a male in terms of feedback, the opportunities you have access to, you know, promotions. People will be wondering, is she going to get pregnant or what? I've heard these stories from my female friends. I've had them from ladies on social media. So when I talk about being a gender champion, I just want to be. I want to have more conversations like this. And that's why I was really excited to do this podcast. I want us to encourage. I want to encourage all of us to have these conversations in our circles because we are the ones perpetuating the norms if we don't question them. And then it starts with us, starts with the conversations we are having around gender. And I think recently there was a study about how there's a growing divide in ideologies between men and women nowadays. I can't remember where I saw it. I saw it somewhere on social media. And like, basically they're saying women are becoming a little more liberal in their ideas and men are becoming more conservative or remaining conservative. So you see, there will be agenda. No, not agenda divide. An ideological divide at some point, if we don't encourage more conversations around some of these issues. So I just want to be a place, the kind of person who can have these conversations with everyone in a. In a safe way. 

Sharmin:
[00:23:49 - 00:24:14]
What would you say to women who may be listening and they may be conservative? They were socialized to be submissive. They embraced their gender norm. They are afraid to speak up in the workplace, even when they are discriminated against because of their gender. What would you say to them? 

Carolyn:
[00:24:16 - 00:25:28]
I mean, it's okay. First of all, I want. It's okay to embrace the conditioning that you have. I believe that going against the norm can be lonely and isolating. So I actually envy people who are able to conform. I think I genuinely believe it's easier to conform than to, you know, to fight against the norms. So it's okay to embrace it. I think what we are trying to say. What I am trying to say is let it be okay to embrace that life and let it be okay to not embrace that life. So if the submissive, because I know also these things have to do with religion and it's your faith, and maybe that's what they teach you, it's perfectly fine. And no one should demonize that way of life, then it should also be perfectly fine for me to say, no, I'm not that submissive kind of woman. I want a career. I want to be a leader. I want to be an engineer. I want to go into all these male dominated spaces. That should be okay. So we just need to get to a point where it's okay. And I think that is what feminists and gender equality changemakers are advocating for, that the path you choose, whatever it is, let it be okay. 

Sharmin:
[00:25:28 - 00:26:03]
I really do. There are some women who think that because they were. Because we were socialized in, to embrace other gender norms and to perpetuate the gender stereotypes, they think that they're trying to be men. What do you say about that? And there is that notion because you hear. You'll hear the term, you're trying to be a man. What. What do you say to that? 

Carolyn:
[00:26:07 - 00:28:10]
Well, it's strange, because on one hand, we have to acknowledge, yes, our socialization. On the other hand, we should also really look at the issue objectively. The things we tell we call being a man. What are they exactly? You know, if you really examine them, so is at the risk of not getting too controversial. So if you're born with certain body organs, fine, we can say these are the male organs, right? But then is it the relationship between the organs that make someone a better leader or a better engineer, a better astronaut? All the stem fields that are. That have mostly men. It doesn't make sense. So I think saying, you want to be a man, we need to examine that statement. What does it mean? What does it mean exactly when someone says, you want to be a man? Because some of these things have nothing to do with your hormones. They are skills that anyone can learn. I can learn to be a leader. I can learn to be assertive. I can learn all these other. I can learn anything that a man can learn. So if I want to pursue maybe a career, become a CEO, or if I want to earn money as well and contribute equally to the home, that has nothing to do with how. It's just what it is. I want to earn money and contribute to the home in and of itself. It's a neutral thing. It's us who assign gender to these activities. But when you really look at them, what does it mean if I go to the supermarket and buy things from my home? What does it mean if I Carol, go and pay school fees for my child, I'm looking after my child. So when someone says, you want to be a man, what exactly does it mean? And these are the conversations we need to encourage. What do you mean by you want to be a man? And I know now it can get all going to the murky waters of. Of gender, sexuality and all that, but all I'm saying is that the statements, the things we gender shouldn't be gendered, for lack of a better word. 

Sharmin:
[00:28:11 - 00:28:49]
I think so many things are genderized these days that, you know, it could definitely get us into murky waters. But I really enjoy having this conversation with you, and I hope that you, you can return at some point so that we can just focus on gender norms specifically and talk a little about the deep structures that women. That women may not be aware of within the organizations that they work.