Pushing Boundaries in Service Transformation: A Conversation with Rowan O’ Donoghue

In this episode of the Scale2Day Podcast, Scott  sits down with Rowan O’ Donoghue, co-founder of Origina and an exceptional strategist and innovator in the IT industry. With over 30 years of experience, Rowan has been instrumental in shaping organizations through his leadership and vision, driving complex IT initiatives, service transformations, and operational excellence.

Rowan shares his journey of building Origina into a trusted alternative to IBM for software maintenance and support. He dives deep into his experiences in change management, risk management, and developing innovative "follow-the-sun" support models. With a focus on pushing the boundaries of what’s possible for clients, Rowan discusses the keys to success in IT service transformation and how continuous innovation has kept his company at the forefront of the industry. Tune in to learn valuable strategies for scaling and transforming your business from one of the industry's top entrepreneurs.

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Scott Bewley [00:00:01]:
Hi. I'm Scott Bewley, the founder of scaledoday.com, where we help you scale your business to new heights. This podcast is a 30 minute master class on how to scale your business across borders. It's where I interview seasoned executives and entrepreneurs who have built, scaled, and turned around businesses. Listen in to get great nuggets of knowledge from experts in 30 minutes by joining the podcast. Great that you can join us today. Look looking forward to the chat and, catching up. So, maybe maybe you could start you've you've had some fantastic achievements.

Scott Bewley [00:00:43]:
It's been a little, while since working together. It would be great if you could tell me a little bit about, what you've been up to since then. And also probably first of all, just tell us a bit about your background for the listeners. It will be really helpful.

Rowan [00:00:54]:
Great to be here. Great to see you again. Sure. Yeah. I I mean, listen a bit about myself. I mean, I think it's coming up on 30 years now in the in the IT industry. I mean, I guess I was always a technologist. I mean, I started off as a as a programmer back in the college days, Assemble and Cobalt and all those languages, but I quickly realized that's not the area I wanted to be in.

Rowan [00:01:13]:
So my early career worked for a lot of organizations like DED and AST and Wang, and Digital, etcetera. But I I kinda found my feet more in the client services arena with Digital Equipment Corporation back in the day. And that was more when we used to do outsourced, I guess, kind of help desks and technical consultancy operations. And from there then, I went to work for a Swiss consultancy organization, which was great, where I was based primarily between Dublin and Zurich. I did a lot of work with the banks, Credit Suisse, Hyper Vans Bank. And, again, very much kind of, I guess, human those technical skills, doing consultancy, doing implementations within the data center. And then after that, I kinda gave up the travel, and I came back to Ireland. And I remember this, I I took a role.

Rowan [00:02:02]:
It was a joint venture with with Bank of Ireland and ProSystems, and it was to do with a complete bank refresh, of all their systems across the UK and Ireland. And I think after about the 3rd day, I realized I made the wrong move, but I still got it for for about a year. We had assembled a great team, deliver that project, but you you you know what I missed? I kinda missed working for a smaller organization. I always kinda felt that working in some of the larger organizations, you are a very small cloud in a very big machine, very little autonomy, very little ability to to make an impact. So yeah. So so I was looking for something new, I guess, is a challenge. And, at the time, I this is where I met my my my current business partner, Thomas. He had just set up a business partner, a company called Unitec Systems, in Dublin.

Rowan [00:02:52]:
I think they were literally only about 9 months after getting it up and running, and and they were effectively looking to drive that business and create a service at Durham at the time. I think it was owned by UK parents. Thomas is the sales director. So I think after about 7 interviews in the pub, I I took the role, and it was great. I mean, we we we grew it literally from 0, I think, to a revenue stream of about 12 or 13,000,000 Irish points back at the time. We were very much we were known as the, I guess, a value added reseller. So we used to specialize in, I guess, the IBM, the kind of mid range enterprise space, like these kind of RISC, or a 6 1000 UNIX machines, mainframes. We deploy the 1st storage networks when they came into the when when they came about.

Rowan [00:03:35]:
And, yeah, I mean, life life was good. And I think what happened then is that we we had an MD at the time who decided enough was enough. He wanted to step out. We were cash rich at the time. We used up cash reserves. We took out a loan with Anglo, and, he went on his merry way. And, unfortunately, what we didn't forecast was the downturn in the economy. So this is about 2,008.

Rowan [00:04:00]:
And at the same time, IBM, I mean, our biggest partner, I guess, kinda turned on us at the time. So that was some grace. But so what we I mean, essentially, what we did is we we we salvaged that business, and we created then this business we have today, which is an independent software maintenance organization. And I guess since then, it's been exponential growth, you know, ever ever ever since that. And then just being we started that in 2012 with our first customers in 15. So, yeah, 9, 10 years in. So it's it's been a bit of a phenomenal journey the last number of years, but that that's that's the helicopter overview of out of my kind of background.

Scott Bewley [00:04:38]:
Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So, I guess we'd consider you to be a serial entrepreneur then.

Rowan [00:04:43]:
A serial entrepreneur? Yeah. You could. I mean, I I I guess I was I mean, I actually had one of my my first business, I think, when I was about 17. But, yeah, I I think if I go back to that role I had with that Swiss consultancy firm, I think it's the smaller organization, the ability to to take something small and see the potential in terms of getting high growth. I think that's always been the attraction for me. I think it's the same with the business we have today. It's, you know, sometimes we get asked the question, you know, when is enough enough? And I think the answer I always get back is when I stop and join us on a daily basis, you know, because every day is a challenge.

Scott Bewley [00:05:18]:
So so just on another, take too, I suppose, there's there's a lot of there's a lot you know, you're pretty complex guy. There's a lot of, interesting things that I that I know, but maybe there's something that you could share with the listeners that might surprise them about you.

Rowan [00:05:31]:
Oh, my surprise. I'm a complex guy.

Scott Bewley [00:05:34]:
You know In a good way, I mean, I'm in a

Rowan [00:05:36]:
in a In a good way. Yeah. I mean, I I think yeah. What many people probably don't know is, I mean, I I outside of the job, I guess, because I have an active mind. I mean, I I I restore classic cars, so I get my hands greasy, bit of engine work, rebuild engines. So typically American cars, old V8s. And I don't know. Someone someone asked me before, like, where where did this love for American cars came from? I I think it was just growing up in the seventies eighties.

Rowan [00:06:03]:
My brother always had too many sitting outside the door. He was always working away whenever he was younger. And I remember at the time when when I bought my first classic car and I said I asked my brother and I said, listen. I, you know, I I bought the car, but I wanna just, like, overhaul the engine and just get to understand how it works. And I said, what's the best advice you could give me? And he said, listen. You're gonna make mistakes. He said, just take photographs along the journey. And I remember I'd probably blow more distributor electronic components than that and that.

Rowan [00:06:29]:
But but the great thing about it is I think it's that curiosity on how do things work. It's the same in my technical background. It's a bit like, you know, I think what made me, good, you know, I mean, as a technical consultant, I'm gonna empower my career is that curiosity, how do things work, and that passion for that, you know. But yeah. Cars.

Scott Bewley [00:06:48]:
And how many cars do you own?

Rowan [00:06:51]:
I I I take the 5th on that.

Scott Bewley [00:06:54]:
I'm not too many yet because I because I know.

Rowan [00:06:57]:
Yeah. I know. It keeps me out of the road. Keeps me out of the

Scott Bewley [00:07:01]:
road. No worries. Look look, just just wondering because you you've had many successes along the way, but I'm sure there's been a few bumps in the road. So I'm just wondering if you could maybe have a shared time around, you know, when you faced your BS, what have you you wanna call it failure, challenge, and and kind of how did you, what did you learn from it and how did you get around that? Because it usually doesn't kind of, you know, hits the wall and doesn't, you know, goes under, around, or over. You know?

Rowan [00:07:27]:
Yeah. It's min ministen. I mean, I guess life is kind of full of those. I I think our like, when I come back to a business and scaling a business and and the time, like really dark times I think is when that back in 2008, 2009 where the like, we didn't forecast the downturn in the economy. We had used our cash reserves. IBM had kind of turned on us. I mean, we were one of our best business partners at the time, but then they were coaching some of our staff to move into other business partners. You know, they were given, you know, a quote to other VPs.

Rowan [00:07:59]:
So so so that was, I mean, we we kind of went effectively technically insolventrush if I'm honest with you. And at the time in my personal life, there was a lot of challenges there in Buena Bear. Our young twins was born with hydrocephalus, so he was in the hospital. I think my my my wife had cancer at the time. So it was literally going from home, minding the kids to 2 different hospitals to mind the kids and then trying to salvage a business and stuff like that. So, things were were really kind of bad back then. And I remember, you know, you take the pay cut, you know, you kind of re mortgage the house, you try and prevent, you know, passing any kind of salary cuts on to the staff and not to distract them in terms of what's happening. Bush and I had a great, you know, I guess, part of the time with Thomas who kept the eye on things there.

Rowan [00:08:42]:
But we were both in the same boat. And and I think that that for me was probably one of the hardest things. I guess one, we kind of realized that not everyone is a friend to help you on the journey. Right? Some are there to kind of make money on the back of your demise. But at the same time, there are some white knights out there, and I think it comes back to the power of the network. And we had some really good people in our network who really guided us through those hard times and suffered to get that successful outcome to allow us, I guess, to come out with this to start fresh with something new. So so, yeah, I I think that was probably, you know, it's it's like, listen. No no one has a crystal ball.

Rowan [00:09:20]:
Right? I think it's kind of experienced. You think, you know, you're on a rosy path and all of a sudden you hit that, you know, the the mountain peak and then it goes straight down. You you just don't see it. So, yeah, that that was probably one of our, you know, you know, big biggest failures. And I think learnings from us. I think it's one to pair the network. I think that that's a big thing. Right? Particularly, you know, for for for new entrepreneurs starting out.

Rowan [00:09:43]:
And 2, it teaches you about resilience. You know, it was a pretty dark time. Right? And and it's not about kind of having a stiff upper lip and and, you know, but it's really about the belief in terms of the the belief in yourself, the belief in kind of what you stand for, what you're trying to do, a belief to execute. So yeah.

Scott Bewley [00:09:59]:
No. That that's really, that's really, amazing, actually. Tough tough journey that you've been on. I think well, you know, one of the one of the things you're saying there was, a lot of really interesting points. One one question and maybe I could pick up on and and and I'm finding this a lot myself, and I know that everyone probably listening is finding the same thing around scaling up their business, which is, yeah, the power of the network. I think that there's yeah. Maybe maybe you could tell me just a little bit more about, yeah, what you mean by the power of the network and and your, situation.

Rowan [00:10:27]:
Yeah. Wow. I mean, listen. We we've had so many people, I guess, that have helped us on our journey. I mean, it's it's you know, it it hasn't just been me and my partners, Moss. And I guess the one thing I'll say about the network is certain people come in at different stages, you know, but they don't always they're not they're not always there because you're kind of going through different stages of scale. And, you know, like I said, even even from the outset, Tyrone Nomanney, who's now our chairman, helped us at the very outset at those times in terms of, I guess, kind of getting rid of the old business and turning that around, allowing us to start a moat. But even when I talk about scaling this business, it's not only, I suppose, skills coming in to help us in terms of being better entrepreneurs, people with experience who've done this before, what to watch out for as a scale.

Rowan [00:11:12]:
But also, I guess, kind of mentorship. Look, we've certainly never built a business like what we have today. Right? And I guess there's always that fear in your head of, you know, are we going to repeat the same mistake? Or is there going to be a different mistake around that corner, which we just don't foresee. Right? And I think being able to tap in to so people who can make us maybe better leaders. I think there's always a quote in terms of, like, the entrepreneurs don't make good leaders in a business. Like, you get to the first stage, but they're not the right business or they're not the right people to take it to the next stage. Right? So we're always kind of mindful of that. We're mindful of where we came from.

Rowan [00:11:44]:
So yeah. So I I think it's it's it's it's hard to pick one to being so many people to help us, but I think it's it's different stages. And really being able to tap into that now for skills, experience, and mentorship has really helped us along the journey.

Scott Bewley [00:12:01]:
So, you know, you've you've had, you mentioned a number of sort of stages in your entrepreneurial career, and you've had some pretty tough challenges and and, you have absolutely resilience, amazing, resilience that that that you and and your team must have. Just just wondering, you know, what what's been your favorite job so far and and why?

Rowan [00:12:19]:
Every role I've had has been a positive one, I guess, from a learning perspective. Right? It's kinda shaped my career. I will say, you know, one one one of my favorites was when I was working with the Swiss, a consultancy firm at the time because it was a smaller organization. I had more autonomy. I had a great mentor at the time, a guy a guy I truly respected, Brian Nolan. He was my manager, but he was a mentor. And he really helped shape my early career. And and it was a really fun, enjoyable, and, you know, and working with customers.

Rowan [00:12:47]:
Right? That that was really, really, really great role. But I think that, you know, coming and building this business from where it was a start up to heights, I said, is £12,000,000, £13,000,000. You have the complete fall, right, where you're nearly technically insolvent. You come out of that, you know, like Phoenix in the flames, and then you build We we built a business in a brand new industry, and there's so many challenges going against us. I think the learnings from that and the experience, like, you can't buy that from a textbook. Right? Yeah. And even today, you know, I mean, we're still I mean, I still effectively call us a startup. Right? But we are still learning every day of the week in stuff like as we take it to the next level.

Rowan [00:13:29]:
And I just think yeah. So I think that that the role I'm in today with original, that's been my most enjoyable. It's probably been my most my most frustrating at the same time. You know what I mean? It's probably the one that angers you the most. But I think in terms of fulfillment and that challenge, yeah, that that's definitely been it.

Scott Bewley [00:13:43]:
Brilliant. Now how many countries are you in now?

Rowan [00:13:45]:
So we're headquartered at Dublin. We're we've got a North American headquarter in the US. We've obviously I'm I'm just back from a trip down in Australia with the team down there. We started early in 2000, I think, 17, 1 of our first customers, but we weren't ready. I mean, the the the real goal was to grow the North American market, which I think at the time contributed for about 70, 75% of our growth. So I think we're probably in about, I think we're probably in about 30 different countries today, you know, so we've we've had massive scale fairly quickly. But, you know, but but at the same time, we were very mindful at the time that we had to double down on the core select those core markets that we want to develop before we go too mad with that word, domination, you know, objective. But but, no, it's it's been really it's it's it's been a great journey from a success perspective.

Rowan [00:14:33]:
For us, it was that, you know, you know, it's kind of we've we've had to change. We've had to drop that parochial Irish mindset that you're a small business. Yeah. We've had to learn to you know, you're on a world stage. You know, you gotta put on your big boy pants. You gotta be seen as such. I think there's always maybe sometimes that people always have that fear, that impostor syndrome. You're not good enough if you're up there.

Rowan [00:14:56]:
But you are, you know. And I think that's something we've actually had to learn as well to try and get over as well.

Scott Bewley [00:15:02]:
So, I know you've mentioned a lot around how you've scaled the business, and you've you've you've kind of given us quite a lot of examples, but is there anything else you kind of wanted to add in terms of key lessons that you think you'd learned along the way?

Rowan [00:15:12]:
I think when we started this business, so this independent software maintenance business, this was really a new industry. Right? So when you think about it with your car, we talked about cars. You know, you buy a new Ford in the morning, you get 12 months warranty. You have the choice that you can go back to the main dealer or you can go to the independent guy down the road who's probably being trained in a conservative car for half the price. Right? In the IT industry, that's been around for harder, but but it has it hasn't been around for software. And I think if one of the biggest challenges we faced is it might set shift in terms of people understanding that they have an option outside of the OEMs. Right? And that it's possible for an organization without access to source code to be able to resolve, defect, provide security vulnerabilities, all of that sort of stuff. So so that's a really hard style to be able to show people that, you know, you're safe harbor, and you're a trusted organization.

Rowan [00:16:02]:
But but I do think the biggest challenge that I actually had when we set up because we took 3 people out of our own business to take on the might of IBM globally. It's like that David and Goliath story. The challenge I had back then is how do you do that? You know? And and I remember, I think it was about 2,008 after Hurricane Katrina. I was in Jersey in the US, and I was at a conference. And I remember there was one there was one presentation that really stood out to me. And there was this gentleman there, I can't remember his name. He, for the life of me, he had set up this business, right, where he tapped into professional married women that had kids but were at home wanted to get back into the workforce. And he created this massively scalable donation system, right, where he effectively created a platform where people could ring in and offer donations for relief victims of Hurricane Katrina.

Rowan [00:16:51]:
Right? So he was able to know, tap into this plentiful workforce across the US, and he brought in 1,000,000,000 in terms of, you know, donations and stuff like that. And at the time, I remember, wow. That was that was really clever, really innovative in terms of what you were able to do there to quickly scale something to be able to to to achieve that outcome. And I and I forgot all about that. That was back in 2008. Like I said, we started this business with the idea in 2012. But but back then, I I I came back to that idea. And I wonder, could I do something like that? And create some sort of model.

Rowan [00:17:25]:
And the funny thing is about an entrepreneur, you always have these demons and stuff for that. You've you've got people saying, oh, that's not gonna work. And, you know, these still laugh at us when we talked about the business. And when I talked to some people about this idea of of an operating model, people said, yeah. It's not gonna work. And and but probably the worst thing you can tell me is that something's impossible or it's not gonna work right because I've got to prove you wrong. And I started with that, and it was effectively, what we did is we recruited x. So IBM was going through their own change.

Rowan [00:17:51]:
They were letting go lots of good people at technical staff over the years. And what I effectively did is I recruited them into a contractor model. Right? Yeah. And across the globe, and it allowed us to to create this, like, this ability to massively flex and scale to customer demand. So you probably don't much about how we do our business, but so if a customer, you know, moves certain products to ourselves away from from a particular vendor like IBM, we give dedicated or name resources. And that was important to me to make sure the customer experience is important. But to do that, we have to have this massive flex model. And believe it or not, it it paid off.

Rowan [00:18:30]:
I thought people would see through it. I thought customers wouldn't buy into it. I remember our first customers were AXA and Mastercard, and it just scaled massively since then. And believe it or not, it's the it's the exact same model we have today that's underpinning the business.

Scott Bewley [00:18:44]:
Amazing. Amazing. Brilliant. I think, you know, you've got you've learned a lot of kind of lessons in your career. And what what do you think is one thing that's really important you believe everyone should learn at some point in their life?

Rowan [00:18:55]:
I strongly believe it's getting the work life balance right. Don't forget to live your life. I think, you know, if I go back to those dark times or even start the business, it'd be the business can consume you. It's like I remember coming home and, you know, you'd be on the couch and my laptop doesn't close till about midnight. Right? So you're you're there, but you're not present for your family. Probably missed lots of family events and stuff like that, and that probably suffered over the years. My health probably suffered. I remember I put on an awful lot of weight.

Rowan [00:19:24]:
So you just get obsessed and buy consumes. So the one thing I I, you know, if there was one piece of advice, and I think this comes back to this whole thing of when you're growing up is, you know, you know, have a good career, you know, get a good job, get to retirement, you know, you know, have a nice family, get to retirement age, and then enjoy life. I've lost so many friends over the years at a really young age, 30, 40s, and 50s. And and and I look back to my career. I'm kind of going, you know, something you really need to live your life for now. So you so what I would say is make sure you get that balance right. Don't forget to live your life. And, you know, at the same time, that should give you the passion for continuing what you do, in your business career as well.

Rowan [00:20:02]:
But that would be one thing I would, encourage people to get right.

Scott Bewley [00:20:07]:
Brilliant. Brilliant. So, what what do you think would be probably one pivotal moment in your career that, you know, shaped shaped your leadership style apart from when you're working with me on the cybersecurity side of things?

Rowan [00:20:20]:
Yeah. I I I I think it's, so so in the business, we've, I mean, to us it was important about culture. Right? And it's the power of the team as opposed to just the exec or the leaders in the business. Right? And I think I go back to this. I think I mentioned earlier on, you know, there's there's always this notion that founders or entrepreneurs are not great leaders in the business as in to take it to the next level. They're great for the initial stages, but not beyond that. I always want to be the best leader I could be for the team. Right? And my leadership style before probably wouldn't have been great because when you go through these hard times, it's all about you have to get it done, roll up the c's, you nearly have to do everything.

Rowan [00:21:01]:
Right? But when you get to an organization of the scale we have today, that's not gonna work right. I think this work comes back to the coaching that you require to better yourself, right, to be able to see the greatness in others. So so even to this day, you know, I I I have that mindset as, you know, in order to scale, you bring in people who are better than you. Right? And, and it's great to be able to see those ideas, that passion, being able to overcome challenges and stuff for that to to fuel the business going forward. And I and I think that's really been important for us. Right? And it's great to be able to see people within our organization develop themselves in terms of their career and their mindset and their leadership skills and stuff for that to take the business to the next level. And without them, we wouldn't have the business we have today. But but if I'm honest with you, if I didn't change my leadership style at the at the early stages and recognizing some of the failings in the previous businesses and stuff like that, both me as a leader in terms of how could I support them, we wouldn't be where we are today.

Rowan [00:22:08]:
So I think, yeah, that that that's that would have been early doors probably back in 2014, 15. Yeah.

Scott Bewley [00:22:15]:
Great. Some some some great lessons for everyone listening in there. And, I guess, yeah, we're really key thing you mentioned there, Rowan, is around, yeah, that work life healthy balance, which is which is even more obviously come to the fore even since COVID and that sort of thing. You know, how what sort of strategies did you use? You you mentioned that you, you know, it's important and and all that, but how do you kind of how do you actually

Rowan [00:22:38]:
put that into practice? Good friend always told me, just go get an ice cream and sit in a bench and do nothing for 30 minutes. Right? And and and and and but he used to but his point about it was just really the simple things. Right? And I did it once, well, and I did it lots of times after that, but but the power of it was quite important. I think, to me, I think you know you know what I enjoy? I I mean, I'm not really a gym person. I I've tried it. It just doesn't work. But I enjoy hiking. I'm lucky where I lived that I could just walk out and there's a 10 kilometer walk in between the windmills at Quilted Forest.

Rowan [00:23:11]:
And I find it's like a detox for the mind. It allows you to look at challenges from a different perspective. It takes you out of the zone. So for me, I guess the balance is I guess since COVID is all does the kind of remote working? So I'll I'll typically do 2 or 3 days in the office. Sometimes I'll describe it as sniper alley. The minute you walk in the office, you're you're taken out because you have planned out your day whenever you wanna go see it. Right? So that's why sometimes I just stay at home, get stuff done. But I think being able to have that balance, but, you know, you can't I mean, I I during COVID, it was really difficult where you're just permanently back at the, you know, you're you're behind the screen.

Rowan [00:23:45]:
You're missing the camaraderie. You're meeting you're you're you're missing the interaction with people. We're, like, we're social beings at the end of the day. But for me, I I think it's I I think I I've got that balance right now. You know, I'll go for a swim couple of times a week. I'll get out for the walk. You know, we do a lot of business travel as well. So sometimes even when I'm traveling, I'll tag on an extra day just so I actually have a day to myself just to kinda freshen the mind and to try and get that balance right.

Rowan [00:24:10]:
Yeah.

Scott Bewley [00:24:10]:
And are you a sea swimmer?

Rowan [00:24:12]:
No. I'm I'm a fairly poor swimmer. I'm like an anchor. I go straight to a bottom, so I've had to work on that. No. I I wouldn't be the best swimmer now in the world, but I'm I'm trying my best to better my skills, Gautam. Like, my kids say I'm an embarrassment.

Scott Bewley [00:24:26]:
Well, every every, parent's students usually say that well from, experience anyway. So, look, a lot of people who are listening to the podcast, would be interested in advice for entrepreneurs who are just starting out. Do you have any advice that would you'd find useful if you were starting out today?

Rowan [00:24:41]:
Yeah. I mean, I guess probably a couple of things. I mean, I'd probably say focus on what you're gonna do on solving a real problem. Right? I mean, I think the best businesses often emerge from identifying pain points or gaps in the market. So that's the first thing. Right? I mean, the other thing I would say is I'd I'd say start small and scale fast with a MVP product that you can bring to market quickly. Like, don't wait for perfection. I remember even when we started this business, I got it to probably 80% definition, and then I was straight out with customers.

Rowan [00:25:07]:
And I and I used to ask customers I could give you an example. When we onboarded a customer, I used to ask them and say, listen, this is a 12 month journey, but what would success look like to you at the end of the 12 months? Paint that picture to me. Right? And what was really great, it used to it used to shine a light in their view what success was, and then we tweak the service accordingly. Right? Because the service was designed for customers. So I think so stay lean, I'd say launch, but learn from your customers. And you'd be surprised in terms of how much they will help you on your journey. I think we talked about Iran being build a really strong network. Right? Find yourself a good mentor.

Rowan [00:25:39]:
Find good advisors who, you know, mean those successful entrepreneurs. That's really important and stuff for that. Right? Because you'll get some great experience and and leadership advice from that. Happen. Don't dwell on it. Learn quickly. Get up and dust yourself off and go again. Right? That's part of it.

Rowan [00:25:55]:
And probably the last one is, like, do something you're passionate about. Do something that you really love doing, like, because otherwise it just won't last. So I think, you know, that's too sure that's a secret recipe. Right? But if there was if if I was telling myself, you know, back in the day, there are probably the things and stuff for that that I would probably say to my my younger self if I was starting off.

Scott Bewley [00:26:13]:
Brilliant. Fantastic advice. No. Definitely, I'm sure that's really valuable. I really appreciate it. Yeah. So, yeah, I suppose probably one more question. Is is there a question that you wish that I'd ask you and, you know, how how would you answer it? What's what's one thing you think we're, I'm missing today?

Rowan [00:26:28]:
No. I think you've asked those. No. I think, you know, it's it's funny. I I I kinda touched on it. I mean, the one question that, was always, I was always surprised what people asked except for but it's been asked a couple of times in the last couple of years. It's a bit like, when will you exit? And I'm and I'm kinda going, you know, it's it's a bit like not an amount of money question. Right? For me, it was always about I guess, I kinda step out the day we stop having fun or the day I stop enjoying it.

Rowan [00:26:54]:
And I'm nowhere near that yet. And I think, like, every day literally is a challenge. It's enjoyable. I really enjoy what we're doing. And I think particularly when in this business because I go back to our old business. We were part of the problem where customers never had choice and, the industry was kind of really designed, you know, for for maximizing shareholder value, but it was certainly not for, one for benefiting the customer and an ink. What's nice about this business is to stand for something which we believe is right, bring choice to customers, right, and to free them from a lot of that pain. And and that message just kinda resonated.

Rowan [00:27:29]:
And so that whole right to repair, you know, I I think when I stopped enjoying it, I guess that would be the day I stepped out. So that that would be the question. Brilliant. If there was anything I would have got you to ask, only because I get asked the whole time.

Scott Bewley [00:27:41]:
Yeah. That that that's brilliant. I think there's there's, you know, it's really clear that you're on a you're on a mission, and I think that comes through as well. So that was a that that's that's really incredible. And and, yes, it really key misses as long as you keep enjoying it. So it's it's fantastic. So, look, just appreciate your time and effort around coming on the call, and it's been great to catch up. And it was really, really enjoyed catching up and talking, and some some really good, useful advice for for, entrepreneurs and for scaling companies who are at the stage where where they want to, you know, get a bit of advice, and and and I'm sure they'll probably try and seek you out as a mentor as well after this.

Rowan [00:28:22]:
Yeah. Listen. I mean, thanks thanks for having me. It's it's been great to reconnect. You know, it's great to be able to do these. I think it's I think that the listen. The the great thing about podcast it is is I think it is a better experience. And if anyone ever if any of your listeners wanna reach out and support me, listen.

Rowan [00:28:37]:
I'm always around for coffee. And I think that's the best thing you can do as an entrepreneur is kinda pass it on the knowledge and experience you have. I mean, I do that for a couple of organizations today. Never would've thought I was would have been in that role, but I think, listen, it's a small enough community, and the more we can help each other, I think, the better. So well, listen. Thanks thanks very much for having me on board.

Scott Bewley [00:28:54]:
That's brilliant. Thanks, Rowan. I really appreciate it. Thanks for joining me, Scott Bewley, and our expert guest on this episode of the Scale Today podcast. I hope you're leaving with actionable insights to help you scale your business to the next level. Found value in today's conversation? Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast, and don't forget to share it with your fellow entrepreneurs and leaders who want to grow across borders. For more information, visit us at scaletoday.com. That's scale, the number 2, day.com.

Scott Bewley [00:29:24]:
Let's keep pushing your business to new heights one step at a time. See you in the next episode. Bye for now.