Beyond Either/Or: How to Leverage Group Programs and Memberships Together - Kerry Dobson & Kelly Vrchota

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kerry-dobson/

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellyvrchota/

00:00
Welcome to beyond either or how to leverage group programs and memberships together. I'm one of your Co host, Carrie Dobson and I'm here to speak with my other Co host Kelly around how do we make group programs and memberships work together instead of trying to figure out should it be 1 or the other? So I'm a group program architect and I work with authors and coaches and other experts and I help them to take their content, take their wisdom, take their tools and resources and then turn them into impact, repeatable, profitable group programs that are enjoyable to lead and more importantly are enjoyable for your clients to keep coming back to so I'm here to talk about the group program side and my Co host Kelly is going to talk about the membership so Kelly, do you want to give a bit of an introduction of you and who you are and who you work with? Sure so I'm Kelly for code, I'm a membership strategist and I work with coaches, service providers and associations that are looking to create memberships or grow memberships. 

00:58
And really I'm all about finding out a right fit membership so it becomes something that is a space that not only your members love, but that you love as well. I love that right fit piece because I think that's so important and that's something that we've talked about often is, you know, what is that right fit who is it for both from a group standpoint and from a membership standpoint. And you know, Kelly and I have been working together for over a year now and really helping people to understand that there isn't that need to choose between groups or memberships and through that work and through kind of our conversations, we've been able to identify, first and foremost, you know, what is appealing about both of these models, right what is appealing about a group what is appealing about a membership identifying what are the differences between them? Like what makes a group different from a membership and vice versa? And then what are some of the ways that you can put these together so that you have a really successful and easy to run business model and so that's what we're going to talk about in this whole program is identifying and talking about what are what do these things have in common? How are they different and then most importantly, how do you put them together so that it is the kind of business that you want to run. 

02:11
So let's first talk, Kelly, about things that are in common so that groups and memberships share. What are some of the key parts that you would say are the things that they have in common? You know, I think one of them is that it's, you know, it's a one to many model you're able to impact more people you're able to serve more people in this container because 1 to 1 you only have you have limited capacity because you have limited time impacting more people and then it's just a different price point it can be, it is not going to be as high touch as one to one it so it's just a way to serve people or offer them a different a different avenue to you or access to you at a different price point. 

02:49
Absolutely and the other thing that I love about groups and memberships that I think they share in common is the increased possibility that people feel so what I mean by this is, you know, when you're kind of by yourself and you want to do something and maybe you do it, maybe you don't. Sometimes if you have a coach, it helps you do it more. But when you're in a membership or when you're in a group, suddenly you're seeing other people doing the things that you want to do and you believe that possibility so much more. 

03:19
And you kind of increase your courage and willingness to try to take risks because you see other people doing things. And I just think that is such a great motivator and kind of momentum keeper for people, for the, for the clients, but also for the people leading it as well, because we feel good when our participants are making strides and taking action. Yeah, yeah. And just, you know, that just takes the whole community corner connection part, even at a deeper a, a really good level i, I love that just a kind of different way to look at that and see the outcome of that yeah and so we in the in the workbook that comes with this, we, we kind of put a whole bunch of other ones out there, but those are some of the key things that are the same outgrow group programs. 

04:06
So take a look at those we've got them in the workbook for you, but those are the ones that are kind of the big highlights for us. Is there any Kelly, that you think also need to be called out? No, I mean, I, I think there's also this, this vision that you're, you know, there's this, they're belonging you're part of something together, but you're also together on this vision or this mission. And I, you know, I love that i think there's power in that. I think so too and I think, you know, it's that sense of membership, that sense of partnership, that sense of belonging that so many of us are desiring just in general right now, but especially when it comes to doing something different in our business, in our life, our relationships, whatever it is the membership or group is for. 

04:47
So now that we talked about how they're the same, why don't we talk about how they're different and what, what kind of distinguishes membership from groups for you? I think the one that is with the membership, there's not a start and end it is, it is ongoing and so there's the different, you know, one big difference right there you, you know, it can be, you know, looking at from launching from how it's just kind of run. It's it's a definitely a definitely ongoing process, you know, and that there's a pro to that and there's a con to that. 

05:20
You know, one of the pros being you get this space where they can kind of take things in in more of a nugget, digest it, implement, marinate, whatever and then versus having to go through this set curriculum and it kind of drinking through the firehose. There's, you know, accountability and support that can go on, you know, long term, but there's also the long term of you're always having it open, you know, always having it running. It's a heavier lift or a longer lift. Yeah, absolutely right. And, you know, I think it, it's so funny that that start date and that end date kind of the absence of or the presence of is one of the distinguishing factors between a membership and a group program because for me, the real difference is having that start date and end date that is like the foundation of the difference because what you're saying is we're coming together in a cohort or group for a certain amount of time and we're going to accomplish something together so there's some what I call program, promise some something you're going to accomplish or experience together as a group and so, you know, I, it's what I like about a group is that there's that excitement as it begins and then there's this end. 

06:26
And, you know, even if it's repeatable, there's still kind of the end. So the other thing that's different is because of the efficiencies that you have, it becomes repeatable so just like a membership can last for a really long time, you can do your group over and over again and it becomes repeatable, but you don't lose that start or end date and so it is something that's repeatable. And then, you know, typically when it comes to a group, you know the structure around it and kind of the information, it's a little bit heavier in a group program that it is in a membership in the sense of you've got a a start date and an end date so you're kind of covering everything all in one versus a membership that content and and might be there, but it's not all kind of happening at the same time people are kind of experiencing it or interacting with it a little differently in a different timeline yeah and then one thing to piggyback on that is you, you have a cohort coming through so when you're in a membership, you know, you might have somebody that's been in the membership for a year, 2 years, and then you've got somebody brand new so kind of, you know, how you integrate them in there and get them connected into, into the group, in the community and into, you know, the path of the, you know, the content that's in there as well. 

07:38
It, it becomes different than, OK, we're all doing this together and we're all on the same path at the same time. Yeah and I think that was why I was so excited when you and I first started talking and working together was because that's always been my hurdle for a membership personally, is like, how do you get people to be in the same place and I love that that's what part of what you do is help people figure out because when you start your membership, you've got your OG group and it feels a little bit more like, you know, a cohort group, a group program until you start welcoming in new people and then the longer you have your membership, the, you know, the, the bigger that division is between the people who started your OG group versus the newest 1 and I just love that part of what you help people with is what is the strategy? So no one's feeling left out your OG people aren't feeling left out and your newbies aren't feeling left out exactly 1 of the things that, you know, I think we both run into and it's been part of our conversations is, you know, there really is this idea that people have to pick a group or a membership and that, you know, there is no way to kind of put them together and So what we wanted to do in this video was talk through, well, what are the different models how can all of these things kind of work together how can you have a yes and instead of an either or when it comes to groups so what we're going to do is we're going to talk you through like just at a high level of what how these pieces can kind of go together. 

09:07
And we're going to talk about the benefits of that kind of model. And then some of the roadblocks, some of the things you have to kind of keep in mind or think about. O Kelly, I'm going to start with what I think is probably the most popular, the most seen model, which is where you know you're working with someone one-on-one you've got the one-on-one happening. Then you add a group program to what you're doing and then you add a membership so it goes one to one group and then membership. So the benefits of doing this is you really are able to build out your framework successfully through that one-on-one client so because you're starting with one-on-one clients, you're getting a lot of really good feedback about what's working, what's not, what are the resources that matter, all that kind of stuff. 

09:57
The other thing is, is your one-on-one client group can become your future group program members so you're not starting from scratch looking for people kind of out in this big wide audience. The first group of people you launch your group program to is anybody that you've worked with one-on-one And what's really another benefit of this is what you learn in that group program, like how people approach things differently. The, you know, the sense of community, the sense of connection, all of that can then be built into your membership program so it just flows really nicely. 

10:31
What you're learning in one-on-one helps you in the group program what you learn in the group program helps you put together the membership. The roadblocks for this kind of approach, first and foremost is time it takes a while to build up your audience one at a time, to build up your community, to kind of get it big enough where it's supporting a group program where you have enough people to say, OK, we can we we can bring enough people together for a group program and the same for the membership piece so this model is probably the longest one, but it's a really like nice, slow, consistent build. And then also just the amount of time and effort it takes to build out a group program that is indeed impactful and repeatable. 

11:16
It's a roadblock for people because they're not necessarily understanding that there is time and effort needed you can't just kind of throw it together well, you can, but it's not going to be repeatable and it's not going to be impactful so just the time and effort it takes to do that. What about that next model where we go from one to one to membership to group program what would you say about that one? You know, I think that's the same kind of thing where you have to have this. You've validated your process, what's working one to one and then you can take that to the membership piece of it or you know, the same as you could take it to the group program. 

11:52
Most likely your candidates have all been people, they work with their clients, they're all good people, a good fit for the membership. Sometimes it might be a little bit different, like somebody might just really want one to 1:00 but you know, overall it's kind of the same type of person. They're all a good, probably a good fit for the membership and then from that you can really kind of look and see like what are they really needing or wanting so we can go in depth into a group program, that you know, as you kind of go through, what are you finding where they're getting stuck or what are they really needing and then it just kind of evolves into let's have a group program that's kind of based off of what you're really needing to go deeper in roadblocks would be it takes a while to kind of build that up to build an audience you don't have a huge pool right away and then it's kind of the ongoingness. 

12:36
You know, a membership is long term and so you need to be intentional about that it's not going to have that start end date so, you know, OK, I really want to keep this way, but I it is doesn't have to be a heavy lift, but it's a long lift so just going into that from the beginning, yeah, I love the flexibility of this model because I've seen it where people are offering that group program within the membership so it's only open to those that are in the membership and it's for those that want to go deeper on on that topic or that area. 

13:07
And then I've also seen it where they offer the group program outside of the membership so sometimes it's, you know, members come to it, but then sometimes other, you know, it's one-on-one clients or just other people that they've met along the way. And so I love the flexibility of this model of saying like where does that group program land and who is it built for? Yeah and then that group program can can also feed the membership and also can feed one-on-one as well so I always think that you just want my job with clients that are only doing one-on-one in membership. 

13:35
You know that membership can feed one-on-one and and one-on-one can feed the membership so same with the program tying into there. Yeah and I think that's where we really connect is that idea that it's an ecosystem, right like all, all of this can really work together. And it's it's more about deciding which is it, which is the model you want to follow and where, where are you? So that the next model that we can look at is where we kind of drop that one-on-one and it's it's we start with a membership and then you do a group program do you want to talk about that model? Yeah so I mean, I think it it gives you, you're just you're taking that piece of the one-on-one but it's about finding where your clients are and you're creating this this container, this space that's the one to many. 

14:16
It's recurring revenue, all of that it's easy to kind of tie or tap into like what are people really wanting and eating and really focusing in on that. And then coming from the same thing of what's, what's kind of this missing piece or where do we want to dive in deeper or is there something that a certain group of people are really needing them let's create a kind of program or forward out of that. Is there any roadblocks to that model that you would draw our attention to? You know, I think, you know, it kind of depends on where they're at, but it has the potential to be, you have a smaller audience for phoning members, depending if you're have you, if you haven't built up this long list of one O 1 clients and then you're also kind of starting from scratch and some of those resources that you're going to put in there, you know, for the membership or the course. 

15:00
Yeah, right. This one always feels a little bit like you're experimenting within the membership. And that's OK like there's, there's nothing wrong with that i always think of those groups where like they make it really special that you're in a founding member. And so that gives you a little bit of permission to be like, we're going to try this and if it doesn't work, it's OK and and you learn something through it so I love, I love the flexibility, but also the experimentation that this one sometimes has. 

15:26
Yeah and I mean, you can, you know, finding what tools they need or creating those tools as they come up and as they need them i mean it also you're building this resource of for the members or this resource of saying, hey, let's put that into the, you know, into a group program. Yeah, absolutely. So the, the the final model that we want to talk about is that that is the IT starts with the group program and it moves into a membership and so again, here we've kind of dropped that one-on-one part as the starting point. 

15:52
You know, the benefits of the group program is it's typically a lower expense for clients than the one-on-one support was so the entry kind of from a financial standpoint might be a little easier for people to get started with the group program participants are likely going to be your founding members when it comes to a membership because whether it's all of them or some of them, they're, they're typically in this model coming out of that group program and they're kind of saying we want to keep going with this, we want to stay connected and the membership is the offer for that what's next answer some of the roadblocks to this model is again, you know, there's a lot of time and resources required to build out that new group program and to kind of get it right and, and to build out the resources and the framework that you need for it so again, it's not, oh, I'm just going to have a group program it's what is the strategy who's it for what is what do we need to include in it so that takes time. 

16:46
And the other thing that I talked, you know, I definitely want to talk about here is it sometimes people who are struggling to get one-on-one clients think that a group will be easier to fill because it is that lower cost point typically. And what what I would say is that's not the case, right if you're struggling to get one-on-one clients, you're probably also going to struggle to get group members because you have to find more group members, right like in order to have a group, I would say you need at least six you definitely need at least 4, but like 6 allows for, you know, life to happen and sometimes people aren't there. 

17:21
And so if you can't find a one-on-one one client and now you're trying to find six group program, clients it isn't as simple as it sounds and so, you know, just knowing that that's one of the roadblocks if you're struggling to have an offer that really is appealing to people and it's something that they want, offering it as a group program isn't necessarily. And it's unlikely to make it easier for you to find people. Yeah, that's a really great point because I hear that same thing too and I'm just like, yeah, lower ticket isn't always easier to sell and you know, take your one-on-one and and validate what you're doing and get the right people in there and you know, that I would think would lead to having a larger pool of people to go to the group program. 

18:04
Exactly. And listen, some people don't want to do the one-on-one like it's just that's not how they want to work with people so it's not like you. That's why we offer that group program to membership or membership to group program because for some people that's the key it's just recognize that the fact that a membership or group program is more affordable or more accessible isn't going to be the reason why people say yes necessarily it's are you offering something that is appealing to them are you giving them the opportunity through a member or group program to work on something that is important to them or to have an experience that is important to them? Yeah and one thing that jumped out to me is, you know how you structure a group program is being repeatable. 

18:46
Here you've got something that's repeatable, and you also have something that's recurring so you have this repeatable group program that feeds into this recurring program so it's not like, oh, I do this one time. Nope you can continue to keep doing even just these two pieces of it. Yeah, right and again, it's that it's that ecosystem that you're creating because with this model, you know, as people come into your ecosystem, you're saying start with the group program, for you, know the knowledge the, the foundations whatever that is, and then move into the membership and, and, or the other model where it was start with the membership and then move into the group program. 

19:18
So hopefully what you're hearing us talk about here and what you're getting from this is there are so many different options. And it's not that there's a right or a wrong, it really is. What are you interested in doing and what is it that your audience, your ideal clients want to do? And it's about matching those up. Kelly, if you were to give someone advice on kind of how to make that decision or kind of what process to follow to get there, what would you suggest they do? You know, one thing I would really look at first is looking at what feels like a right fit for you because you know, it might be a right fit for your audience, But if it's not for you, you're going to say, I'm going to bring this whole thing down and so going into it with with the intent of like, how do I work best? Do I do work best with this cohort and then kind of test and see or do I work best like I believe focus on community and I want to focus on this part first kind of looking at where where you work and how you align, you know? What aligns and hits you right first and then looking at your people, that's kind of how I always, you know, look at it. 

20:21
Yeah and I, it's so funny that you say that because I feel the same way like one of the reasons I focus on group programs is because the idea of a membership is unappealing to me from a business standpoint because I want things to have an end date i want a break between things i don't want a every second Thursday, you know, commitment that I have to make all the time. And there's nothing wrong with that it's just for for me that I really struggle with so if I'm going to have a membership, I need to have enough people kind of supporting that membership that I could still bow out when I need to bow out versus for other people they they hate the fact that it, it, there's a start date and an end date and it's like, no, I want to just keep working with people for a long period of time and I want this connection and this community piece that's what's super important so I love that the suggestion is like, start where you're at. 

21:10
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the other thing I would add to that too is like once you have that, then you really want to get clear about like who your client is for this and then go talk to them, right like like if you're thinking about putting together a membership, get clear about what it might be like. Doesn't have to be all figured out, but like an idea of what it looks like and then go talk to those ideal clients, the people that you've worked with or the people that you'd love to work with i always say talk to the people like the three to five people that if they or in your membership or in your group, you would be so excited. 

21:45
Talk to them, tell them what you're thinking and get feedback before you do anything else about putting it together, right it's such an important step. In fact, when people work with me one-on-one to help create their groups. Once we figure out what the program promises and have a pretty good idea about it, the next step is go talk to ideal clients because we don't want to build out a group program. You don't want to build out a membership with with your clients before we've tested that this is in fact something that their ideal client wants, right, right. You know, that they're seeking that they're needing it or whatever and their transformations may be different. 

22:21
You and I are the programmer and the membership person may know what's going to what they, what they're going to get out of it, but it's not necessarily what they're going to be looking for so like really getting to know what are they looking for what are they needing and putting that on the front end and if it's not validated, then don't spend your time and energy and money doing it, you know, so get, you know, exactly and you'll get the feedback to, to know how to tweak it. 

22:42
I've, I have not had any client who's gone to get feedback and it's like, wow, I really shouldn't do this group at all, right like it, what it usually is, is it's like, what does that mean or well, I would want this or what like, you know, there's some clarifying that needs to happen and some tweaks to the idea versus Oh my gosh, no, I can't do proof at all. Exactly. I think it's just so much clarity, you know, because we, we think we can maybe know the words that they're using or what they're looking for and so I think it just, you know, it kind of refines it yeah the other thing that I love about this part, when we, when we get people to go talk to their ideal clients, you inevitably get someone who at least one person who says that sounds really good can you let me know when that's going to be out and suddenly you have a wait list and it's a great feeling. 

23:30
Does it say wait, let's started? Awesome so Kelly, if someone is in that point and they're, you know, they've kind of decided either they want a membership or they want a model that starts with the membership or they've done the one-on-one and they want to go into the membership. What's the best way for them to reach out to you and to get to know how you might be able to support them in building out that membership? Yeah, so I always start with the discovery call, connection call, wherever you want to call it and you can connect me on LinkedIn or our website but I just like to help you unravel it and say, OK, let's make sure this is a right fit for you and that I'm going to be a right fit for you and working together because if we're not if we're not that right fit, I'm not your person so I just want to make sure that, but kind of really unravel that idea and like even talk through how does it align with what you already have, whether you're already doing one-on-one is, is the membership the best fit for you and we can talk through that and then, you know, if it's a yay then and start working together. 

24:23
Yeah, awesome nathan then I would point you in a different direction or connect you with somebody else that could help you absolutely. Right and I love that, right when you start with right fit in this call and we end with right fit because it's such an important part because when you are building a membership or group and you're working with someone like Kelly or I, it is a lot of time that we end up spending together and so you do want to make sure that it's a right fit and Kelly, I do pretty similar. I have a great group program clarity session that i do. 

24:50
And really we just talk about your vision for the group, for some of the people, they already have a group where they've tried out a group so we kind of talk about that or we talk about the idea for a group as a whole. I have LinkedIn or you know, that's probably the best way to get a feel for me i also have a private podcast, the great Group Revolution private podcast. 

25:08
And what that's really helpful for is if you want to get a better idea of kind of how I approach groups in those episodes, I talk about different parts of groups and I was included an invitation for something you can try out in your own group and so it's a really nice way to get a feel before or we jump on that call but if you want to just jump on the call, I'm happy to do that as well. 

25:27
Kelly, I'm so excited that we got to do this together thank you so much and you know everybody, I hope you really do recognize and feel inspired by the fact that you get to choose membership with group, group with membership it's not an either or it is in fact an and.