“Unlocking Connections: Carrie’s Approach to Group Coaching and Social Therapeutics”

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Alright. So we're here with Carrie today. Carrie, can you tell me about yourself?

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Sure. Hi. First of all, Amy, thank you for having me on your podcast. I'm so happy to be here.

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Oh, we're happy to have you.

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I am a life and relationship coach. I founded ZPD Coaching where I specialize in working with

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couples and families, and I lead life development groups, which I'll say more about later. I

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see individuals as well, but the approach that I use is really a group based approach. In addition

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to running my own coaching practice, I've launched the the Center For Group and Couples Coaching

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to train people, not only Coaching, but also therapists in the social therapeutic approach so

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that we can have many, many more people in groups getting help with their emotional growth and

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development and many, many more people trained to lead those groups.

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That sounds great. I was actually looking at your website, and I had a couple questions. Your

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group seemed to be a little different than the, average group. Can you tell me a little bit

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about, the difference in your groups, the life development groups?

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Yeah. Thank you for asking, actually. One of the main differences is that, the groups are heterogeneous,

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different people, different walks of life, different issues they wanna work on altogether in

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a group. Sometimes I run short term groups like 6 weeks, and then I have ongoing groups. So

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these are people who meet weekly, regularly. Mostly, it's through Zoom because my clients are

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around the country and for 90 minutes. The reason that the heterogeneity is so important is

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there are a lot of groups out there themed by issue. What I found methodologically is that when

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we presume to be sitting next to somebody with a sameness to us, we start to make assumptions,

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and we miss out on actually really getting to know the other people in the group. And just because

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somebody says they're depressed, doesn't mean we should all assume we know what that means.

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So, like, in my life development groups, if somebody comes in and, also, I forgot to mention,

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I just coauthored a book on this for coaches and practitioners and how to lead the group. So

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one of the examples in the book is someone comes into group and says, you know, I'm so depressed.

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I'm so glad we're doing this by Zoom because there's no way I could get out of my bed and get

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to the meeting room. Somebody else in group says, oh, well, what is depressed look like to you?

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Can you do you raise your head off the pillow? Can you look out the window? Do you get out of

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bed? Do you like, all of a sudden, it's not an assumption that we understand that this label

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that we use is so understood that there's nothing more to pursue intimately and emotionally

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with the person who's expressing that.

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I love that. So I also was curious. Your page is called ZPD Coaching. Yeah. What does the ZPD stand for?

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Well, so social therapeutics, which is the approach that I practice, it is was by design created

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as a group based practice able to see and relate to the group. So that's why couples work, family

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work, life development groups are custom made for this approach. I also use it in one to one

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work, but I relate to my I relate to my clients and I as a group of 2. Hey. How are we Coaching?

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For example, that makes it a group if you're acknowledging the we. So the words ZPD come from

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a psychologist, Lev Vygotsky, who he was around at the same time as Piaget. Many of our listeners,

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we would kind of all get trained up in Piaget. There's childhood development. It's very fixed

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stages. It's linear. Children learn spatio temporal abilities through an internal process inside

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their brains and their bodies. Well, Vygotsky was discovering Coaching at child development

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and seeing something completely different. He was seeing that it's a social cultural process.

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It involves other humans at differing levels of development. When a baby babbles, we all know

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this. We've all done this. A baby babbles, and we all turn to the baby and say, oh, would you

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like some milk? Like, you know, they didn't say I'd like some milk, please. And we, the adults,

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didn't say your representational abilities of language are lacking right now. We're not going

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to answer respond to you. We don't throw the grammar book at kids. We relate to kids as ahead

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of where they're at.

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I love that too. That is great.

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So you're going that this environment of there more therapeutic coaching environment, we can,

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together as a group of different people, different walks of life, different issues, we're all

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at different levels of development, and we can all relate to each other as ahead of where we

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are. That's how we grow emotionally. Sorry.

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These are no. That's okay. These are skills that everybody needs, and you can take them into

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your business life, your social life, everything. That's great. So how long have you been doing this?

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25 years. I have been either in a coaching the coach's chair or, I took these skills out into

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the corporate world and I worked with groups in the corporate world, meaning global change management

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initiatives and employee engagement initiatives. Those are all organization wide projects where

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I could bring social therapeutics into those environments. And funnily enough, now, 20 years

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later, those two things, change management and employee engagement, can also be specialties of coaching.

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Yeah. We actually have employee engagement groups now at our at my corporate business. So

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What are the groups like?

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Well, the one that I'm actually cochair of is called Ability. It's actually for people that

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are either caregivers or have disabilities, and it's amazing. But there's other ones too. There's

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one called Mosaic that is basically a diversity group. There is one called, I think, through

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the ages. I'm not sure what name they finally came up with, but it's a intergenerational group.

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So they have several, and it's very popular.

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Really? I I mean, I'm so excited about this. I do think that group, there's more and more recognition

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of the power of group work. And even some of the hotshot thought leaders are saying, hey. The

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unit, even in companies, the unit is the group. It's not the individual. Right. And so I'm out

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here saying, hello, everybody. Social therapeutics was designed as a group based method, so

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it's worth getting trained up in it. A lot of what we're what gets brought into group work are

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the same approaches that were designed for 1 on 1 work. Yes. So it makes it harder to see the

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group as a group, as a sum greater than its parts.

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Well and I think in America, we're so self centric into me and what I'm going to achieve instead

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of us and what we're going to achieve, that it's a new focus.

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Yes. Very important what you're saying. And, again, I think we need new to to make the shift

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from me to we, which does not mean we lose our individuality. We will still be individuals with

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our own wants and needs and desires. But to make that shift from me to we, it's gonna take it's

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gonna take a methodological shift. The tools that we have inherited, that we take to be natural

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like water are tools from the enlightenment, and the enlightenment was great. All these like,

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the tools of modern science have brought about so many wonderful things in the world. Some really

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horrible things too, but we'll go with the wonderful things. But that method isn't really so

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helpful to us today in a world where there's a lot of uncertainty, and there's a lot of emotional

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uncertainty. So we need different kinds of tools to keep creating our lives and feel connected

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with others. The tools of the enlightenment were very individualistic focused. And, again, we

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did a great job for the 20th century, but they've kinda run their course. And we've lived in

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other moments in human history where the tools of the moment run their course and humans create new tools.

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Right. That's evolution. Yeah. So would you tell me about how you got interested in mental health?

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Do you have any personal experience with mental health or neurodiversity issues?

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Well, always since when I was a girl, I I dreamt of being a therapist. And when I went to college,

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I thought I would become a psychiatrist. And then in the middle of taking psychology courses,

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we were asked to compare we were told that human behavior was comparable to bird behavior. This

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was, I guess, whatever the fights were in the late eighties in psychology. And I just I remember

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I was like, no. I am not comparing human behavior to bird behavior. I'm out psychology. That's

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some serious That's enough. And, also, I went on and I did an independent study in psychology

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around female athletes. I was an athlete female athletes and body image. And I learned how you

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can create, a research project, and you just bake everything in back end it from the result

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that you want. So I created the surveys, and I created the constructs that I wanted to measure.

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And then I did the survey, and I got the results that supported the constructs, and I was kinda

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underwhelmed with all of that. So I went looking for social innovators, but I'll I'll tell the

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rest of that story in a second. But also, yes, I was in therapy as a teenager on and off. And

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then as a young adult, once I found my social innovators and social therapeutics, I was in a

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life development group for, I don't know, 20 years with the founder of social therapeutics, Fred Newman.

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So Coaching.

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Yes. And my God, I'm a totally different person. I've grown so much. Thank goodness. So I got

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into this again because I found people who were building it, not in an ivory tower and not back

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ending it from a research perspective, but actual community organizers who were out in the in

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New York City trying to create some new forms of community. And Exciting. Both people that were

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in working with Fred Newman in the group setting. And so to get the emotional support that they

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needed to go out in the world and try to create something new. And that started it became a

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real approach and method, and then other people started joining these groups. And then there

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were centers from the wealthiest communities of Manhattan to the arts communities, to the poor

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communities. So it was created bottom up with solid intellectual founding from the top. So it

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was like the we call it tooling results. It's both at the same time. And when I found that,

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I thought I wanna learn from these people. And that's how I got here.

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Sounds kinda like a grassroots startup.

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Yes.

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Definitely. And can you tell me a little bit about what Social Therapeutics actually is? Is

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that the group method?

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Yes. That's the group method. That's what I trained in with Fred Newman and the Eastside Institute

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in Manhattan, and that's the approach that is now used around the world by coaches and therapists.

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I noticed you had a

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list of things that you can actually help people move through

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Mhmm.

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And, like, feeling stuck in life, anger, loneliness, those kind of things. One of the ones that

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jumped out at me that we haven't talked about here on my show and I think my listeners would

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be interested in is social and sexual awkwardness, especially when you're going through the

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midlife and the menopause and your body has changed so drastically. Yeah. Do you see that a

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lot as something people wanna work through?

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I do see it. I see it in couples' work, and I see it also in group work. And what's important

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about it and our awkwardnesses and the things that we go through is we touched on this a little

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bit earlier. We are taught to not talk about these things or try to figure them out ourselves

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or do self help and self care. And I I I am a proponent of self care. I love self care and we're

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a social species. We need others to help us see ourselves and help us grow and go beyond ourselves.

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So what that might look like in in a group setting is someone might come in and talk about the

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impacts of menopause in their lives, in their sex lives, in their, you know, the stress and

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not sleeping. And the activity of it is that this person is giving to the group something that's

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going on for them, And the group creates with it, questions it, builds with it, sees things

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from a different perspective. So what emerges is that this issue around awkwardness, sexual

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or social becomes the group's awkwardness. And when we can it's very it's it's not impossible

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to do, but it doesn't feel natural because we live in such an individualistic society. When

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we can give and have the experience of, our stuff, our private stuff being created with with

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others, it lifts the fog. It reorganizes our experience of our pain and our awkwardness. That's

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the power of group work.

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That's amazing. And what about inability to separate from your gadget in social media, that

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kind of thing? That's a big thing in today's world.

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Yeah. It's a similar kind of thing. That's why the the method of social therapeutics is flexible

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because it is a method. It's not an off the shelf package that you apply onto somebody, and

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it's not so measuring of achieving a goal. So when clients come to me and say, I need to achieve

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the goal of getting off of my gadget. Could you please hold me accountable for the next 6 weeks?

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I'll say, you know, that's I don't think I can help you. That's not how I work. I can help you

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grow. I could be with you emotionally, relationally as you go through a process of discovering

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what works for you, what doesn't work, how you're giving and sharing this with other people

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in your life. How are you bringing people in to be with you on this journey of disconnecting

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with your gadget? But if you're looking for someone to do, you know, more accountability cognitive

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things, I'm not your gal.

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I like that, though. The whole talking it through and realizing kind of all of I'm a social

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worker, and so that reminds me of systems theory when you're looking at all the different people

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in your life and the organizations in your life and who can help with what. So, yeah, that's great.

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Yes. And what I would add to that, and this is a place where social therapeutics can be unique,

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is the relational part of this. Part of that journey for that person is is actually asking,

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well, what is it like for you, spouse, when I'm on my phone all the time? What's it like for

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you to hear me? I do this all the time in my one on one work. What's it like for you to hear

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what I'm giving to you right now? What's it like for you to say what you're saying right now

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to me? That's often an add on relative to coaching and, I'm not a therapist, so you could say

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how much of an add on that is. But it's important that we include as in our journeys that we

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impact on each other and that we're allowed to ask each other and be curious about how do we

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impact on each other? What is it like to say something hard? That's it. What it's like to say

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it is as important as whatever the hard thing is somebody just said.

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Oh, I agree.

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We live in relation with each other. We are a social species. We are impacted on by others'

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actions and emotions.

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Yeah. I can see how you would hear some things that might be a little heavy and hard to correlate

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with your own self representation, what you think of yourself. Yeah. So that yeah. It's good

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that you're there to kinda walk them through that. Mhmm. Okay. So if somebody wanted to work

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with you, is this an online thing or is this in person?

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Most of my practice is online. My clients are from around the country and, Europe and Latin America.

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Wow. That probably makes it easier to be a more diverse group.

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Yes.

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Okay. Yes. So where can my listeners find out more about you?

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They can go to www.zpdcoaching.com, Coaching as in zebra, p as in Peter, d as in David, coaching dot com.

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Great. And I have a lot of like I said, I'm a social worker, so I have a lot of life coach friends,

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a lot of social work friends, therapist friends. Where can they find your book?

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The book is called Social Therapeutic Coaching, A Practical Guide to Group and Couples Work.

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It's available on Amazon. You could type in my name to find it, or if you can remember social

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therapeutic coaching. The book will come up, and the first pages of the intro are available

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for people to read online. So you can go there, read it, see if it's something you're curious

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about. We're getting really great feedback from the book. It's fresh. It's different. People

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are buying it. People are coming to me for training. We just are we're doing a book study right

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now, and it is a broad range of practitioners, which is great. I love that.

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Well, wonderful. Congratulations on that.

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Thank you.

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Yes. Thank you for coming in today. I really enjoyed talking with you. Is there anything that

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you wanna leave our listeners with today?

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I think so. I've been thinking a lot about this recently. I have clients and we all do people

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who are in emotional pain, and they don't feel like they want to go to the people in their lives

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to ask for help. And I really wanna encourage everybody to take that risk with somebody in your

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life and include them in what's going on for you. And what's hard for you. We really need others

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in our lives in an emotionally intimate way. And when we don't do that, we feel really, really

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alone. The loneliness crisis in this country has everything to do, even though it's recognized

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as a social crisis. You know, 1 in 5 people feel very lonely or often lonely. And by the way,

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COVID as an epidemic was 3% of the population. So we're talking about 20% of the American population.

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People write about it as a social crisis, but then the only remedies they give us are individualistic.

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Take a pill, talk to strangers, and join a club. And I love talking to strangers, and I love

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doing things I'm passionate about with others. But that just goes to show you that the method

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that they're telling us, the individualistic method, it's not a match. It's a social issue.

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That's a methodological mismatch. So we have to have a more social response, which means going

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and including other people in your life as appropriate or getting help and joining a life development

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group where you get a lot of support, that's how we're gonna grow.

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Yes. I agree. That is such great advice, especially in a country where our population is aging

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and our elderly are at home and very lonely.

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Yeah.

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So thank you for that. I appreciate that very much. Carrie, thanks again for coming on today.

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Thank you, Amy.

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Alright. Have a great day.