Changing How We Talk About Types: A Necessary Evolution — Part 2

In this episode of the "Beyond Personality Types" podcast, Linda Berens and Olivier Caudron continue their conversation on evolving the way we talk about personality types. They explore the importance of recognizing personality patterns holistically rather than relying solely on acronyms like INTP or INFJ. The hosts discuss Linda Berens' unique approach to naming these patterns, which provides a deeper and more comprehensive understanding of personality themes. Through this engaging discussion, listeners are encouraged to appreciate the complexity of human personality by using language that acknowledges multiple preferences and the dynamic nature of personality development. Tune in to discover how these new perspectives can enrich your understanding of yourself and others in the journey of self-discovery.

Linda Berens  [00:00:00]:
Types are fascinating patterns that are best discovered holistically.

Olivier Caudron [00:00:08]:
Welcome to Beyond Personality Types, the original interstrings podcast. Every week we provide you with the better ways to use and talk about personality theories. I am your host, Olivier Coudron, a self discovery facilitator. Come with us beyond the indicator results to rethink what you know about personality types. Hello and thank you for tuning in. This is part two of our two episode series about the benefits of adapting how we address types. As we discussed in our last episode, we are all unique living systems with a pattern that stays with us over time but gets more interesting and complex with our life experiences. Our job as facilitators in type assessments is to help ourselves and others understand the core of who we are, not just what's on the surface.

Olivier Caudron [00:01:29]:
Linda has a unique way of naming these patterns which goes beyond the usual letters, acronyms, functions or numbers and gives a deeper understanding of the pattern's composition and purpose. While we'll delve further into the topic to understand why it is crucial for us as type connoisseurs to change our ways of addressing and talking about types. I encourage you to be particularly attentive as Linda explains those three points. One. The logic behind naming a pattern as opposed to using an acronym as a known. Two. Her reasons for giving a name to the pattern's theme rather than to each individual inter strength lens pattern. And finally three, the use of preferr or having preferences for is beneficial for anyone looking to work with personality type assessments or any other model.

Olivier Caudron [00:02:36]:
Take a deep breath and let's find a better way to address types. In that, I still don't understand why telling I am a theorist, I am a catalyst is okay, while I am an INTP is not according your vision. To summarize, you said that the essential motivator are made of four different patterns.

Linda Berens  [00:03:05]:
Well, there are four essential motivator patterns. Okay. And within each of those, there are four patterns that relate to four of the 16 personality types. And then within those 16 personality types, there are other patterns, but whether those patterns are there from the beginning or not, we don't know.

Olivier Caudron [00:03:28]:
Okay.

Linda Berens  [00:03:28]:
Because the more you get into the variations, the more you might be getting to development. An example is I have RNTP preferences, which would mean that the designer theorizer pattern would fit me that whole theme. I design people don't see that so much, but I theorize all the time. I fear.

Olivier Caudron [00:03:50]:
Yes. You are.

Linda Berens  [00:03:52]:
Okay. But within that, I actually now that Dario Nardi has enough data from his research, he has one of those patterns is called I think it's an empathic one, whatever it is.

Olivier Caudron [00:04:05]:
Dario Naredi is an award winning UCLA professor and author who has made significant contributions to the field of personality research. His work combines neuroscience with personality typology, exploring how different brain regions are activated in individuals of various MBTI types. In his book, decode your personality, go beyond Myers Briggs with 64 brain based subtypes. He is introducing that within each of the 16 MBTI types, there are four subtypes shaped by nurture and environment, offering a more dynamic understanding of personality variations.

Linda Berens  [00:04:53]:
It's sort of the theme of my variation on IMTP. How did I get to do that? Is it part of the original pattern that I had, or is it because I was trained as a therapist, I was trained as a woman growing up in a small town in Kansas? I've had lots of life experiences. This has something to do with my purpose on the planet, and my purpose on the planet has a lot to do with helping people heal. You can't do that from a straight kind of analytical place that you might think of for INTP. So we have constantly these variations. It's very hard to say, I have a theorist pattern. We try to do it, but for me, the names of the patterns can be nouns. It's the letters that can be the nouns.

Linda Berens  [00:05:47]:
That's Linda's rule.

Olivier Caudron [00:05:49]:
Yeah. But when someone says, I am an INFJ, I am almost sure that the letters are seen as unknown.

Linda Berens  [00:06:00]:
Yes. They are. I agree.

Olivier Caudron [00:06:01]:
You INFJ, ENFP. All of a sudden, it's no more four letters. The person is identifying herself or himself to the description they got. Yes. I am an INFP. It's like I am a man. I am a woman. I am a Belgian.

Olivier Caudron [00:06:23]:
So it's a hard quest what what you are doing, what you are expecting also from people.

Linda Berens  [00:06:32]:
Well, and maybe just in the courses we teach, I'm really trying to emphasize that a lot because there are so many people whose picture of INTP is the sum of the parts. Now with the internet and people talking about the eight functions, they may have a little bit richer description than the soul timers did because that wasn't the language. I had that language, but most type workshops, that's not there. If you're working with type in an organization and people are using the Myers Briggs type indicator, how do you interpret that? You talk about e versus I, s versus n, t versus f, j versus p. And Mary Jane comes out of that class thinking I plus n plus t plus p. Mhmm.

Olivier Caudron [00:07:23]:
And

Linda Berens  [00:07:23]:
it means the sum of these parts, but only a few of those things will register. So this issue of having it be I'm an INTP is in part because of the incomplete understanding that people have of what INTP stands for. If you've been through our training, you've been through some of the other people's training, there becomes an understanding of that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. But when we're using letters to talk about someone's type, it's really I have preferences for INTP because if you look at a lot of my behavior, you're gonna say, oh, she's is an f. Like, I have a feeling preference. They would say that, oh, no. She must be an INFP. I try not to correct people every time they do it because it's so habitual.

Linda Berens  [00:08:13]:
And I know that the people in our courses have, for the most part, a broader sense of what that four letter type code stands for. And I have to admit, there are 16 personality types. I can't remember the names of all those types even though Dario Nardi and I made them up.

Olivier Caudron [00:08:31]:
Why did you give a name to the theme rather than, in my case, my preference is for catalyst charter course? Why was it more useful from your point of view to add a name on top of those two lenses?

Linda Berens  [00:08:49]:
I think we were trying to make a point for me to say behind the scenes theorist does get at a lot of the essence. Now I have another lens, so it's behind the scenes theorist enhancer enhancer, or it's an enhancing behind the scenes theorist probably would be more accurate. Those words only have meaning if you know the models. In my view, it's better to say that than I'm an INTP. It's just because of the rampant parts language that is part of the Western culture and the English language.

Olivier Caudron [00:09:25]:
And I'm sure that if you let this go, people will end up by saying I'm a CCTACC. The chart of customizing chart decors catalyst.

Linda Berens  [00:09:40]:
Yeah. And you have to know those other models, which many people don't.

Olivier Caudron [00:09:44]:
Yeah.

Linda Berens  [00:09:45]:
I cannot remember what the name of your pattern would be.

Olivier Caudron [00:09:49]:
For seer developer.

Linda Berens  [00:09:50]:
Yeah. So seer developer tells you a whole lot more than any one of those than chart the course and book catalyst.

Olivier Caudron [00:09:59]:
Yes and no.

Linda Berens  [00:10:00]:
Yeah. But it tells you the theme that's particular to or specific to the type pattern, the whole type pattern.

Olivier Caudron [00:10:09]:
As you said, it's when you don't know all the lenses.

Linda Berens  [00:10:13]:
And even when you do know the lens, there's different information than foresee your developer gives you. Pursuer developer tells me something about how you have a capacity to see into things and then do things to help them develop, which is qualitatively different than catalyst or chart the course. If you know those other models, then that would make some sense and it fits, but we were just trying to get at what is the theme and how can we grasp holistically the theme. And then each lens has its own language to talk about the themes, but that's another topic too.

Olivier Caudron [00:11:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. If I have to be honest, I think the word and verb prefer, having a preference, makes a lot of sense because listening to you and with the practice, when I say I prefer, I acknowledge that there are also other models and those models are somehow in me. It's not like there's a wall between being a catalyst or being an INFJ and ENFP. They are a part of me somehow. There are some cells that are ENFP or and as you said already, the eight functions, we are using all of them. Yes. In your case, you are preferring to use mainly to think.

Olivier Caudron [00:11:59]:
That's the point. It helps people to say I prefer. Right. And that's more open minded too. Mhmm. It's not all of a sudden I am the best and you are, oh, yes. You are ESFP that creates a segregation between all of us. Mhmm.

Olivier Caudron [00:12:17]:
When I say I prefer my preference for, I keep accepting that the part of me might be another type. As the model you are also showing that we have three different selves, the core self, the developed self, and the contextual self. In each one, we are all totally different or slightly different because the context forces us sometimes to use other skills. Yeah. Preference, that makes sense. That really makes sense. I understand why people say I am a. That's okay.

Olivier Caudron [00:12:55]:
Bringing people to use that I have a preference for is really constructive. That pushes people further to know who they are actually more clearly.

Linda Berens  [00:13:09]:
Yeah. My tendency is to say, I would not say I'm a catalyst or I'm a theorist. I usually say I have a theorist pattern. I have a behind the scenes pattern because then that tells you what my pattern is. It doesn't tell me what I am. I used to sew, and I made my clothes, mostly my clothes. And I had a pattern that I would cut out. When I went to Belgium, I had sewing lessons in French.

Linda Berens  [00:13:39]:
Mhmm. And I brought my pattern for this thing I wanted to make, and they didn't even do anything like that. So they would put out something that was roughly the shape and then fit it to you. So it was really customized to fit you as opposed to this pattern that once if I cut around this pattern, might not fit me around the middle. But if you created the pattern and you know what it's like, different parts that go together, and then you try it on the person and then you customize it as opposed to cutting it exactly. I was so shocked that this was how they did that bear. They had a shape that they were following, but they weren't always leaving a five eighths inch seam. Roughly, we know it's a skirt or a shirt or a pants.

Linda Berens  [00:14:29]:
When we're talking about human beings, it's nice to have that tailored flexibility for how we interpret what we're calling it and making sure that it fits somebody.

Olivier Caudron [00:14:41]:
All the sewing classes in Belgium, for instance, are not following what you just said. That's beautiful to hear that you had to go to that specific class with that open minded way. You were on your path to see already a pattern differently. It is maybe difficult for a human being to accept to see himself or herself as pattern because that sounds like something fixed, that it's not leaving actually. Yeah. I was starting with the quilt because it's beautiful, it's colorful, it's useful, but as you said, it's not alive. Using the word pattern, it's or something fixed or it is like a routine. You are following a pattern.

Olivier Caudron [00:15:37]:
That might be also the reason of the resistancy of using the word pattern. Some might take it as something fixed or a routine, but I don't know what you think about it.

Linda Berens  [00:15:51]:
If I go back to the sewing example, I was taught, which is how we're taught in The US anyway, to follow the pattern. I mean, there were pattern companies. I don't even think there were pattern companies in Belgium at the time. We're talking a long time ago. You weren't born yet. Oh. No. I don't think so.

Linda Berens  [00:16:11]:
1966?

Olivier Caudron [00:16:13]:
No. No. Almost, but not.

Linda Berens  [00:16:15]:
Maybe '67. But at any rate, it was a pattern is a I get how people can think about a pattern as something fixed and like a cookie cutter. And so maybe I'll have to find another word, but I doubt if there is one. So the thing is just just to differentiate between patterns and processes. And patterns do stay the same, but there's also processes in living systems that help create variations in expression and how the pattern expresses. And there are many things that we have thought were fixed that just in nature have evolved differently. Like, some plants, for example, they just mutate and they involve evolve, and they still have some of the basic qualities of the pattern.

Olivier Caudron [00:17:01]:
We encourage our listeners to try to try on if they used to say I am a, INFJ, NTP, Enneagram two, three, one. I don't know why I always say two. To try for a week to just say, I have a preference for that might help. And also when you were explaining, no. You are not a thinker. You are not a a sensing person. Do you have a preference for?

Linda Berens  [00:17:32]:
One little caveat there is I may have a preference for thinking, but where there's a big difference between the kind of thinking I do and the kind of thinking someone with a TJ in their pattern does.

Olivier Caudron [00:17:46]:
Here you have it. The reason to adapt how we address personality types. Let me give you the conclusion and some takeaways. When we use acronyms to define who we are, we view ourselves as the sum of the parts. However, the whole is greater than the simple sum of its parts. I am more than just the components of my body. Linda and Dario Nardi assign themes to each of the 16 personality types because a theme says more about the type than the models or lenses used to assess it. Using a theme's name embodies the essential qualities of the theme itself and convey more about who we are.

Olivier Caudron [00:18:35]:
Therefore, you avoid labeling someone or confiding them to some biases and cliches. When discussing preferences, we acknowledge the existence of other potential patterns that are part of ourselves that may show themselves under certain circumstances. Remember that although it is already more inclusive, saying I have a thinking pattern or I have a catalyst pattern describes the pattern that is part of a model and or preferences but not entirely who we are. The theme and its name provide the most holistic spectrum of our personality. Recognising the complexity of our personalities is crucial. In our self discovery or type assessment practices, or when discussing types, changing our approach and encouraging others to say I have preferences for can effectively add in understanding oneself and embracing our complexity leading to a more holistic and inclusive view of personality. Find all the themes names in the 16 personality types descriptions for self discovery, a booklet authored by Linda Behrends and Dario Nardi, part of the Understanding Yourself and Others series and published by Radiance House. For additional resources, consider visiting interstrength.org.

Olivier Caudron [00:20:23]:
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you enjoyed this discussion we'd really appreciate it if you could leave a rating and review to help others find the show. Remember to subscribe if you don't want to miss next week's episode. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram at beyondpersonalitytypes. Thanks again for tuning in. We are Olivier Caudron and Linda Berens. Stay curious and eager to learn until we meet again in our next episode.