From News to Reality: Director/DP John DeTarsio's Journey Through the Ages

In this episode of Cue the Crew, hosts Jack and Tyler interview John DeTarsio, a seasoned Director and DP with a career spanning several decades. We discuss John's journey from local news to reality television, the evolution of the industry, and the techniques used in cinematography. John shares insights into the glamorous past of local news, the challenges of freelance work, and the tricks of the trade that have changed over the years. The conversation highlights the importance of storytelling and the collaborative nature of filmmaking. In this conversation, we delve into the intricacies of on-set production, the challenges of juggling multiple projects, and the impact of significant news events on their careers. We also discuss the art of storytelling in news and how John's experiences transitioned into reality TV, highlighting the evolution of filming techniques and the challenges posed by natural disasters. Memorable experiences in the field, including the birth of the show 'Catfish', are also shared, showcasing the blend of spontaneity and professionalism in their work. In this conversation, we also hit on the evolution of filming techniques in reality television, emphasizing the importance of capturing authentic reactions and the challenges faced in the industry. Join us as we reflect on the changing landscape of reality TV, the impact of streaming services, and the future of the industry amidst economic shifts.

Speaker 3 (00:00.046)
Welcome to Cue the Crew. Today's guest has been in the business since 1984. That's, I was one. I was one year old.

You're not making me feel good right off the bat, you're a-

8.

But before we get to that, let's cue the crew. This is Cue the Crew. You're all access past everything behind the camera, including you. Let's get started.

Speaker 3 (00:26.232)
Today, Jack, I am thrilled to bring a good friend of mine on. He's a director, DP. He was with me for a long time on Catfish. He's still on Catfish. The one and only John DeTarsio. Hey, man.

Hello, thanks so much for having me. What an honor, my friends. And congratulations on the podcast.

So.

Speaker 3 (00:50.328)
Thanks, thanks for helping make it happen, that's for sure. You may recognize John slightly if your memory is really,

Okay, okay, so I recognize John's name and but never worked before obviously But you guys did remind me that that John you and I did meet very briefly one time and I I recall Where it was those? Funny time where Tyler and I never get to work together like it's all never

We're always doing different things. It's really fun whenever we do get to work together. mean, I like him. He's a little bit of a micromanager to tell you the truth, but that's okay, because I'm a little flighty, so it kind of works pretty well. We need those. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We balance each other.

I've had lots of experience working with father so I you don't have to explain

Yeah, you get it. But this was in one of those times where I was doing a show that was going forever. I believe I was doing a real high quality cable television show. one is the best. I believe it was Virgin Territory, Virgins in College. We found a couple, but they were in opposite parts of the country. There was

Speaker 3 (02:08.341)
Travel Show.

Speaker 1 (02:13.082)
one in Rhode Island, one in, Arizona, one in Michigan and one in Florida, where I believe that you and I ran into each other,

That's right. were two opposing traveling shows. We had no versions on our show ever in our cast.

What about awkward crew members? Maybe a couple.

And yeah, and Tyler, Tyler, we saw that there was other crew gear coming off on another baggage plane. Crews always know and we all dress kind of alike so we always can recognize the crew guys. Crew guys and crew women because we all have our set dressing, I guess. And Tyler brought you over to

Yeah, dead give her a

Speaker 1 (03:04.366)
Everybody's wearing Solomon shoes.

Speaker 2 (03:16.386)
to meet us and it was great. And like I said to you before the show, mean, unforgettable. You're unforgettable. You have a very distinct look. Thanks, maybe? No, I do. I mean, it is great, but I never forgot you and Tyler speaks very highly of you. That's Thanks, Liam. And you guys have a tremendous business and it's been going a long time. So anyways, it's good to see you again.

It's fun. We absolutely balance each other out. I am a child in many ways and Tyler is certainly the adult in the room. It works very well. I'm very, I'm very appreciative of business partnership that we have.

friendship.

shucks. work wife.

Well, and and so actually, I think, like, my version of the story is that I just showed up at the wrong baggage claim and probably about to pull Tyler's equipment and take it to a completely different shoot.

Speaker 2 (04:19.199)
I can see that happening.

I'm just bouncing around looking for pelican cases and thicker on it and that

So John, 1984 you've been at this. You started in the news genre. You've pivoted over to reality. You've kind of bobbed in there. Tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're based, what you do, and then kind of a little bit of your backstory.

Sure. Well, I live in San Diego, California, but I have always kind of had a place I'd have to stay in LA because that's where traditionally all the work is. But that's kind of my home, that's my homework work area. So that's where I live. That's who I am. I came into this business out of college. I graduated in 1984, actually was interning and kind of working during college, but

I went to college at the University of Arizona. I'm a kid. As a kid, I grew up in Asia. My mother's Korean, father Italian American. And so I grew up in Asia. Neither parent had any college. So I was just kind of went to college without any idea, without any prep at all, had no idea what I was gonna do. And in fact, my sister was already there at the University of Arizona.

Speaker 2 (05:45.474)
And I remember just before orientation going through the book of all the different degrees. And my sister goes, I mean, this is really kind of an embarrassing admission, but it turned out to be one of the best decisions I ever made. She goes, hey, all the good looking girls are in radio and television. And I was like, okay. And I took a look in there and it was like, wow, there's really not a lot of math requirements and not a lot of science requirements.

Good night.

Speaker 2 (06:14.68)
This is the major for me. And of course I did really take to it and I loved it. But I couldn't be further away from your traditional film school kind of DP. I grew up in video. I went straight into local news. But those were the days where you could really still learn a lot of filmmaking techniques. I think today's local news is a lot different.

But back then, it was all about technique, opening shot, closing shot, wide, wide medium, you know, cutaway, you know, lighting and all those things were important. And there were, you know, it was big business. There's Ron Burgundy movies where, you know, they're obviously a satire, but you know, back when there were like four stations to watch and the whole nation, you know, eager to watch television and you know, there was no internet, you know,

you got your information from watching the local news. Our local anchor people were big stars and there was big money in local news. We traveled the world and we were sent to workshops to learn how to film making techniques. It was a great way to come up. I can go on but I don't want to.

Well, thought Anchorman was a documentary, was it not?

Speaker 3 (07:41.878)
Some of of the workshops that you said that you guys got sent to. Do I remember correctly that you also help teach some of those abroad and whatnot? that is that right?

Yeah, so I mean, the main organization that I got involved in right away was called, it's still around, the National Press Photographers Association, which has a big annual workshop in Norman, Oklahoma at the university there. And in fact, I think they just had it, it's usually in March. So they would do these quarterly contests for news camera people, which were,

you know, categorized like spot news. You had to shoot a story that a breaking news story shot and edited in eight hours, a news feature that you had 24 hours between shooting and editing, you know, general news, blah, blah, blah sports. And we would compete every quarter in regionally. You know, they cut, split the country within 10 regions and quarterly you would compete. You know, our region was all of California, Arizona, New Mexico.

Nevada and you would, you know, and then at the end of the year you would, the biggest contest of all, you know, the Miss America for the year was the National Press Photographer of the Year. And in 1993, I won that. Thank you. It was, it's a lucky thing. You know, when you get down to the final 15, 20 people, you know, it's kind of a.

Congratulations.

Speaker 3 (09:17.166)
comes down to your looks at that.

I think so. When I won that National Press Photographer Association of the Year, then I was asked to speak at this national convention. And then one thing happened after another, and I started getting asked to speak at a lot of places, which was probably the best learning experience for me because a lot of that stuff was luck, but I had to start dissecting everything I was doing and listening to other speakers and really kind of started to learn what was

what was good and what was bad about visual storytelling. So that was kind of, and I did, I was able to travel. Next thing you know, I was training people in Denmark and Ireland and in Italy and just around the world and traveling. And it was a ridiculously fortunate, cool position that I had for, that I did for like,

Did your station pay for that? like the different...

No, different places. Yeah, the different places would. And that's why I probably, that's one of the reasons I went freelance, because I couldn't, I was running out of vacation time to do all these cool things. But yeah, I was making a little money on the side and it was quite an amazing experience. I think, you know, because of that, again, in order to teach well, I had to, you know, I had to really study and analyze and learn from the best.

Speaker 2 (10:43.778)
you know, pick people's brains and stuff like that.

Wondering whenever you were when you were in film school. Oh, yeah. Is know that you were going to go the camera route. Did you have an interest in in the camera side? The beginning or did you explore other departments? How did how did you end up where you are?

Well first I thought I was going to be a very cool DJ because there were DJs back then and I was JD the DJ.

DJ JD. Yeah.

Nice.

Speaker 2 (11:10.798)
But I, you know, we putting in cards and I love that. I love that. I thought I'd mix music. Wasn't any good at it. But I messed around in class. Thought that was really cool. Then I wanted to be an in-studio director type of thing because, you know, at our, at the U of A, we're connected with the PBS station. So we had like little switchers and play with and stuff. So loved, loved that. And I did actually work my way up.

in the studio, starting as a floor director, you know, into the booth through the technical director. And then I was directing newscast for a while. And then that's when I found my way into the newsroom. They because I used to I used to in the news first station I worked at, I used to like go and find the videotape from the stories that were shot and edited that day. And I would reedit.

because it was so fun for me to edit stories. then I started seeing the hotshot camera guys going out and they were like on the sidelines of the football games. They were the ones that were, you know, hanging out with the firefighters at the big fires. And I really wanted to do that. And I was kind of thrown into it, fell in love with it, was terrible at it.

And eventually along the way, I got a chance to report for a while, which I even identified that I was terrible at that and found my home as a cameraman. So that was kind of the route.

Did you ever do any new stuff?

Speaker 3 (12:48.942)
No, not really. Actually, Alabama was a pretty big news oriented program. But I never really, I was never interested in it. It's a little too scary and not interesting for me to like dive into it.

I did a couple of things, like I covered a couple of hurricanes early in my career just because I would take absolutely any job and all the real sound guys at that point did not want to go cover hurricanes. Look man, I got rent to pay.

The pay was always pretty... Still is. mean, when you compare it to a reality show or something like that, but there's ways to make sure you're invoicing appropriately.

My first job in television, I earned $11,200 a year.

1984. That's pretty good.

Speaker 2 (13:40.878)
When I left and I had a pretty good job, was six figures, barely. But just barely touched that six figures, which was in 1997. was pretty good. But yeah, but the audience has gone. It's just really changed now. mean, it's kind of a stepping stone career. But back then, like I said, I left at the right time.

Pretty solid.

Speaker 3 (14:05.336)
So now you, you shifted outside of news. How did that happen?

So I was with I was actually in Ireland with a very dear friend of mine who was probably one of the best local news reporters that there ever was his name is John Larson and he was a it was a national award winner and I had asked him because we got to know each other through these lectures and stuff and I had asked him to come to Ireland for me we had like two weeks of training to do that and we after the first week we drove our

drove from Dublin to Galway and because the second week of training was going to be in Galway and along that drive many beers, many pubs. He convinced me, he convinced me to try it out and he was already at that point an NBC correspondent and he said that he would do everything he could to make sure that I would get some work because it's a big investment going from the security of a

corporation to back then just buying a beta cam camera and a lens and a couple of HMIs and just support stuff was $110,000. By then I already had two little kids and a house. But he convinced me to try it and I did and I transitioned through because he did help me make some contacts.

started picking up a little bit of work with NBC News and then next thing you the entry level, I guess, freelance cameraman, was doing like the, don't even know the shows that exist anymore, like Access Hollywood, Entertainment Tonight, you know, those kind of things, because that's kind of a, yeah, you know what I'm talking about, those kind of strip shows. But I eventually was able to move my way into some of the more,

Speaker 3 (15:56.248)
That's a lot of content right there.

Speaker 2 (16:06.382)
premiere shows at the networks, which were 60 minutes at CBS and 48 hours at CBS, Dateline at NBC and 20 20 and prime time over at ABC. And I started becoming a magazine cameraman, which involves a lot, lot more emphasis on lighting. And I had a lot of people that I got to learn from through that. And I made a lot of contacts, met a lot of really cool producers, one of whom

that I hung out with and you know, we traveled the world for a couple of years and he was a young kind of really Intense creative guy that we knew would find his way out of there and he did He his name is Tom Foreman. He came to LA after a few years at CBS and he was working at Endemol as a Show content creator and you know, there's no money in that so he would call me

his old 48 hours buddy to go and try to make his little creative pitches look better. And I did that and I helped him out for a couple of years doing that. And he then created a show called Extreme Makeover Home Edition. And he blew up and he took me along and I shot for the first couple of years. That show would send.

the family to an exotic location while their house was being blown up. so I, cause that was the one area where they could use cameras for rentals and did that. And then he moved on to greatness and he took me along all the way. And I did most of my, and so I kind of transitioned into reality.

Yeah, well, like with Tom, it's like once you make a big hit, you're like the guy. People really want to know more of what you have in the pipeline and all that sort of stuff. So it sounds like riding the coattails of anybody's success.

Speaker 2 (18:09.815)
Yeah, yeah, and I yeah, and I certainly wrote his I certainly wrote his and to this day I still am

While you were doing, while you were sort of making that transition, did you ever do any corporate video or sports along the way?

Sure, yeah, I was lucky enough to cover the San Diego Chargers. There was a local show here. that was a half an hour show every once a week. I used to shoot features for them and also hang out on the sidelines and shoot ISO stuff, which I loved and took all my friends. Once a week, I'd have another friend that would...

faithfully carry batteries for me along the sidelines. So yeah. ticket. Yeah. And corporate for sure. I mean, there's always been those corporate jobs. One of the cool things of living in San Diego, well, the downside is most of the work has been in LA. So I've always had to travel, have a place up there. But the upside also is that there's only a few of us here in San Diego. So you do get calls. Like next week.

I got called by the Kelly Clarkson show. How? How they found me? Why? Yeah, yeah, the list is small, right?

Speaker 3 (19:27.694)
Because they're one of four or five guys

Was there a big difference in the glamour of news versus reality or news magazine stuff? How does that feel on set?

Well, it's again, I mean, you you go all the way back to the mid eighties, early nineties, all the way up to actually probably the early two thousands. Local news was glamorous. I'm not kidding you. mean, our local anchor people, I mean, they were like, I mean, it's almost like for Burgundy, you know, the unsaturized version of Ron Burgundy. They were doing at every opening. They were like making appearances all the time.

Celebrity.

Speaker 2 (20:11.15)
And again, and again, the audiences were so big that I mean, when I came into the business, you know, immediately I'm going to Guam to come to shoot a series and I'm traveling across the country. could I can name off all the countries I was in as a local news cameraman. That never happens anymore. Never, never, never. There is no money in local news anymore, sadly. But.

But it was a very glamorous thing. But of course, the network shows, like for instance, when I first started working at 60 Minutes, it was like travel. We're taking a private plane to Utah because we don't want to go through airports. That's the way it used to be. That's the way we used to roll.

Has anyone ever flown you anywhere on a private plane?

Yeah. One. I've had a corporation based here in Dallas. had manufacturing operations in Mexico. yeah. Yeah, yeah. They're right there in love. I think it's because I couldn't do the second. Yeah.

I've had

Speaker 1 (21:20.339)
that's the same one?

Speaker 1 (21:27.35)
I think so. You landed in that remote area of Mexico and they traveled you from the airport to the campus. Did you ride in a bulletproof vehicle with armored cars in

That's why we went because I believe the CEO's daughter was part of entourage. Yeah. Yeah. It was was great.

That sounds cool.

Funny that you knew all this before I did it and just neglected to tell me any of it because I'm like, why am I getting into a bulletproof vehicle? Why does that guy have a gun?

Speaker 1 (22:04.118)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I learned all this after the fact. I'm just saying it would have been nice had you prepped me for it.

So during during COVID we did the UFC fight islands to get everybody out to Abu Dhabi. And so we covered some fights out there, it was a bit. mean, it was a 737 that was private.

I'm not going to name the production company, but story, but they flew us from Fort Lauderdale to a place in the Bahamas and they chartered a flight to to take all the crew and the equipment, but they should have chartered two because there was not nearly enough room on that plane for all of the crew and equipment and we had like those big silver airy cases with the casters on them, you know,

yeah, I know.

just like shoved in the aisle, like down at the back by the bathroom and like the plane would dip and an airy case would come shooting down the aisle just zoom. was no way in the world that was anything remotely close to it. It's like, well, this has set the tone for the rest of the show.

Speaker 3 (23:05.144)
those suckers

Speaker 3 (23:14.606)
But in the news world a lot, John, I remember you telling me that you're responsible for booking your own travel.

Right, and it is the same to this day, I believe. the network magazine shows, those shows are huge because their correspondents, say you're working with Anderson Cooper, you're expected to give him the same kind of lighting you would give Charlize Theron for interviews. So crews would travel with, you we would travel with like 40 cases between.

between me and the sound man. Maybe I'd have 30 and the sound man would have 10 cases and we'd have two big carts. you guys are familiar with reality television documentaries. There's a office structure and that office does everything they can. Some do better than others, but does everything they can to get you from point A to point B. And you know,

When I first came into reality television, was like, I was on a big show and everyone was complaining about, know, that, that why don't they have the PA get up a little early and put the heater on in the van? We don't want to, now we have to get in this cold van and my gosh, when is food? I can't believe the food they, they sent us, you know, where, you know, working for these network magazine shows, they'll say,

Okay, you're gonna meet Scott Pelt, you're gonna meet Dan Rather in Waco, Texas tomorrow. Where do we shoot him? I don't know. Okay, so let's load up all 40 cases of gear. Now I'm gonna start by calling travel and trying to book planes and figure out how we're gonna get all the gear there. And we prep all the gear ourselves and we have to book our hotel. We have to figure out where the gear is gonna stay. Usually kind of.

Speaker 2 (25:11.662)
just in our own hotel rooms and split up amongst ourselves where it's gonna be overnight, how we're gonna get from the airport to there and how we're gonna get to the shoot and just everything along the way. I have tremendous respect for those people that still do this. I had had enough after 20 years of it. it's like 70 % of stressful travel coordination.

Yeah, that's a home with their job.

Yeah, and then 30 % of actual DP camera work. And so it was a bit stressful for me. I didn't like that because it was usually very complicated and really stressful.

Well, that sure did prep you for what came later in Catfish. mean, that's all kinds of travel.

Before we get to catfish though, still in the news days and news magazine days. What were some of the tricks that have now disappeared that the camera guys use to soften, to soften the background or soften the entire image. remember stories of like Barbara Walters having a very specific lighting setup and that included shooting the key through

Speaker 1 (26:35.106)
an actual shower curtain one of those well shower curtains

Well, that may be, but what I know, because I know actually some of the guys that shot for Barbara Walters, which was a very narrow, narrow that like Barbara Walters, you actually got a lighting DP for. But beyond that, we used to have to light everything. Barbara Walters and Diane Sawyer, it was like get the most giant HMI that you can.

and aim it straight at their face, oops, I'm sorry, aim it straight at their face, and then take like 90 flags to narrow out all the blast that you get in everywhere else. So you're shooting a beam of light straight into their face. Which is kind of funny.

I don't imagine they teach you that in film school.

No, but as far as tricks, start, tricks as far as like, like I have, you know, the background, that's just me picking a lens that, that can separate and F stop and blah, blah. Well, in video, you can just open your lens or close your lens. So what I like, one of my tricks was I get like, for my interviews, I try to get like 20 feet away from my subject so I can zoom in as far as I can to compress the background.

Speaker 2 (28:00.088)
So that was like one of the tricks that we use. We'd use this, sometimes we'd use this gel called Hampshire, Hampshire, Hampshire frost. Yeah. And we'd set that up behind just if we were in a small room to try to create that depth. used to always do everything I could to shoot at one, one seven F stop, you know, or whatever my lens would allow me to do. But yeah, there were lots of tricks like that. And then there were the, there was the filtration, you know, we,

I mean, I don't even carry filters with me anymore because post can do. Yeah. I mean, I have a couple, but post can do pretty much everything they want, but all these promise both, you know, each anchor person had a different promise filter that you would use or.

What about the what about the pantyhose on the back of the lens trick?

You

Yeah, yeah. did that. You take the lens off. There was a store right in Beverly Hills. I think right on Wilshire Boulevard. I think there was a Neiman Marcus. I may still be there. And because you had to get a certain kind of stocking and they were like the hundred hundred dollars stock.

Speaker 3 (29:06.702)
500 silk count or

Yeah, from what I recall, they were like 100 % silk pantyhose, right?

Yeah, and you have to, you take off your lens and you put it around the back of the lens and then you put the lens into the camera. And yeah, it creates this beautiful, soft, know, it wouldn't fly today. You put that on today and people go, what the hell is wrong with that?

That's why I think it's funny, I'm that there's camera guys out there today that like, what the hell? You put pantyhose on the back of them.

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:41.31)
Yeah. So amazing. So did you have like a specific Anderson Cooper makeup kit? Do you kind of just go with it? Whatever.

Well, generally, yes, I didn't have a, I didn't. I did have a very expensive, I can't remember the name brand of it, but I had a very specific, expensive makeup kit that I carried around, but I was just powder. mean, they did, and they still do, pay money for the big anchors and casts.

people that are being interviewed, especially women.

Is there it feels like there'd be a lot of hurry up and wait. Is it is that kind of the sort of the vibe on set?

News magazine shoots are, mean, they were, I mean, they've all kind of become murder mystery shows now. But back then we would, I wouldn't say hurry up and wait, but it would be, everything is about the interview and the interview with the correspondent, you know. And because the correspondent is the star of the show and, you know, we'd have two, three, four cameras on two people talking in the middle of a room and,

Speaker 2 (30:57.794)
That's where all the emphasis, that's where all the time is spent, or most of the time is spent. And then that and their walking shots, that's where the majority of the time and effort and lighting and everything else happens. And then say on a murder mystery, once the correspondent is gone, that's when you do your shooting. Because again, in reality TV, is set up, the structure is like making a movie, you have your.

ACs you have your PAs carrying around heavy stuff for you. You have your office in there making sure things are on course. You have your ACs, you have your sound, you have sound guys on some shows have their A2s. You know, have everyone has a line and everyone has a job. Well, on these magazine shows, shoes are much grander often because you're doing so much more with lighting. When you're doing two camera interviews, you know, you've got the big equipment with the lights coming flying overhead and

But it's just you and the sound guy. Or sometimes two camera guys and two sound guys.

Yeah, yeah, that's a lot.

Speaker 3 (32:03.694)
Yeah, so that is about maybe 15 to 20 years after you've been in the business and you're kind of in the heyday of 48 hours, all that, like a grand shoot, a lot of a lot of pretty lighting going on. did you like what is what does a week look like working on something like that? Like, are you is fairly regular or did it take a whole week or just a couple of days or what? Because that's a lot of time away.

Another big stress of that was if, know, most of us in that business are working for multiple clients, right? Because you wanna fill your calendar best you can. So you get a project with Dateline, which is gonna be, you know, two shoot days, two travel days or whatever, and that's three weeks from now. And so you start thinking about that, but today you're working on a 60 minutes story.

And then next week, now you just landed another job for 48 hours. All those producers really think that you, the DP, is sitting in your office looking at all, know, ready to do nothing but talk to them and brainstorm how this story is gonna be shot. You're juggling stories and not telling them that, I got a deadline next week or, you So even, would say,

So I don't really know how to answer your question other than to say a two day shoot is basically a week of work. Because it's all of that and then also the way that their billing structure is, that's a whole nother thing I can tell you. Two days of shooting is a whole day in the billing room because you have to bill, I mean it's a good thing, but you bill all the cart, you have two different.

streams that you're doing, have to justify every single receipt. And when you're traveling, like that Waco trip that I told you about, I have $2,500 of receipt and you're racing through 1,000 miles an hour. Now you have to go back and justify all those receipts. You have to do a whole form on that. mean, so yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:13.858)
Did you never had outside help to help you manage that?

No, I mean, I mean I see your travel course. Yeah, yeah I Mean what we've been in so many weird situations where like Dustin my sound my sound man who was with me since I went freelance You know, I'd be shooting b-roll and he'd be caught on the phone on hold with travel for two hours

yours.

John.

Speaker 1 (34:44.558)
You've mentioned Waco a couple of times. That was another career maker for a lot of people that, that were you, I've heard stories about people that like literally just had to be there at the side of the road for like whatever it was, 32, 33 days. And so the first 12 hours that they were there at the side of the road, they were in the time and a half. And after that, they were into double time for the next 32 days. And they just sat there in their cars and he needed peanuts and drank.

bottled water for

Yeah, if you had an event like that like like it's a terrible I hate to even Think about it because it's so such an awful I think we all know it's a very dirty way to even think but when we had these ridiculous terrible wildfires You know a few months ago here in Southern, California My friends who still work, you know are still connected with ABC and NBC and CBS and that's a large part of their business

You know, there was so much work for them. And, you know, I just, I call and say, my gosh, you know, how are you doing? Are you doing okay? Thinking, thinking, there goes my dog, that's great. Thinking, you know, how tragic it must be and how, you know, down, I'm trying to call them, them to keep their spirits up and they're like.

it's great. got 15 hours yesterday. I'm out of here. 18 hours and nonstop. I'm making so much money and

Speaker 3 (36:17.08)
That sounds miserable.

It does sound miserable.

So it's miserable and it's sad. But yeah, I mean, you you get a big story like, you know, I know a guy who during OJ, OJ Simpson's trial, which lasted such a long time. That was the beginning of the Joker, the Joker HMI. And there were so many courses. He filled his truck up with HMIs and would just drive up and down and rent them out. Really?

He became

Speaker 2 (36:52.89)
And then he bought a house in Malibu. He was a rich man. That's great. He was one of the people who was trusted to like Barbara Walters.

Hope his house is

Speaker 3 (37:03.852)
Nice. Well, John, are there any, you know, during the rush of all that, like ultimately you get a, you get a good looking frame that like, is there anything that you spent time on that just no one notices? you're the only person that knows it and can appreciate what it took to get something like that.

Well, I mean, I think all of us can relate to that. I mean, for you guys with sound and I mean, as long as it sounds, if you don't hear anything, you know you did a great job. You're only gonna hear when something goes wrong. So.

That's my goal is for nobody to mention my name. But there's been a problem. like I don't need compliments. I just need for everyone to forget that I'm here. By the way, how much do you spend on your background for today? Because it looks lovely relative to our.

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (37:55.854)
I spent no time. have one light here and then I have one light there, just to make sure the living room stays lit because the sun is just starting to come out. So finally, it'll start to overtake my light.

Yeah, of course you've thought about that.

The difference between a podcast background.

But no, I would say that, yeah, there was a lot of times, that's what I love about, and I'm not generalizing, there are some sound people, generally those are the ones I don't like who do like attention, but the general vibe with sound guys is, they do tremendous work and nobody says their name and that means they're the best sound people in the business. Well, with me,

Daylight.

Speaker 2 (38:49.91)
I'm in a different business and I always wanted the attention. So it would break my heart that I would frame like a live shot and make a person look as, you know, I think better in that shot than they look in real life. And it would break my heart. No one noticed it. But I think, you know, that was a part of growing up and just becoming an adult, which I was not an adult, I guess, a big part of my life. But yeah, I think.

I think we all experience that.

So John, how do you feel like your approach to storytelling in the news world transitions into even after news magazine stuff once you got into the reality side of things? From background, does that approach translate?

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:37.282)
Yeah, I appreciate that question. I feel like it was a blessing that the way that I learned my craft because I had the ability to practice so much in local news and be out there every day. And I kind of learned during that time and when I was competing in contests and stuff like that to get higher within that business was when I was able to

capture real life at it as it happened as opposed to say for instance if someone's walking out the door and I'm shooting with this person if I say just walk from here to here and then I'm gonna get a shot of the door and then I want you to open the door and then I want you then I'm gonna get in front of you again and you can walk out in local news I learned to shoot that stuff all these sequences in real life so they would just leave the kitchen to walk out the door and I would

shoot, let them go out the frame, run ahead of them, shoot a cutaway at the door, run ahead of them again. So they're just doing one motion. But then what I learned was they looked real. It looked like real life. So that's just kind of a silly example there. But with everything in life, I learned to talk to people without looking in my camera, like have it on my lap and talk to them, not looking at my camera. And I learned that they would react in a more

you know, they're talking to me now and not performing for the camera. And I learned a lot of techniques to bring real life into my storytelling. And whenever I was lucky to capture real life, I would use it. So say if someone's making dinner, right, and they're showing me how to make dinner, but then they hit the fork and it goes flying off, a lot of people would edit that out. I would, that would be my favorite part of them going, shit, you know.

I'm so sorry. That was so embarrassing. So that's what local news taught me, I think. That's what I learned. I think that's not what you learn in film school. Right. And it's not a knock on film school because there's a whole lot of things I didn't learn by not going to film school that I had to figure out later as my career went on. so those are the things that I've always pushed executive producers to like, hey, take a look at this.

Speaker 2 (42:02.792)
And those are the things that I'm always trying to capture when I'm shooting. And that comes at the expense of how beautiful it looks. I don't think people really care. So I have this tidbit that I think about a lot, which is I coined it for myself, the student union basement.

my student union basement theory, which is when I was in college, the student union in the basement was a room and that's where all the funky bands would play and all the weird shit stuff would happen. And, you know, if you were interested in it, you go in there and you'd go like, wow, really cool, right? Just like with camera people can like really dazzle with like, look at this is the best drone shot in the world. And look at this tracking shot I got and

look at this beautiful sunset and person sitting and watching the sunset and all the other camera people will go ooh and like crazy. But people aren't necessarily, yeah, and people aren't necessarily moved by it. I feel like real life is actually the most riveting thing in the world. Not to say that stuff doesn't work, but like when I worked at 48 Hours, when I first started working at 48 Hours, it was very much a handheld show.

B-B-B-B-

Speaker 2 (43:29.056)
If you were going to interview somebody, just kind of stood him next to the window. So he got some light. And it was because that show started out the way they got their name. Forty eight hours was they would descend on a story and they would cover it on the street. Like we're going to crack street. And they'd send like 10 cameras out there and everyone would shoot a story for 48 hours. And then they'd edit them together. Well, then it became this murder mystery where they wanted things to be beautiful. And by the time and, you know, so then it was there's a lot of fun like

experimenting with lighting and tracking shots and all this stuff and then we got to the point where we're with the detectives and they're looking at files and we've got you know dollies going back and forth and so the detectives are like now like

You're making a movie.

handing papers over and and then like correspondent is talking to a detective and and we were like no you have to stand here on your mark if you move this much you move out of my light and and if you move out of my light then it's a disaster and what that did was to me anyway it made the show so boring to watch I'd much rather just like be in there and

one.

Speaker 2 (44:41.516)
watch the detectives work and tilt up and move around and feel the energy of what they're doing and make it feel like real life. Like you were there as an audience in real life. those are the things that I love to do, which is part of why Catfish was the perfect fit for me.

Yeah, so this concept of content is keen is not new exactly. It's been happening.

And so I think it's interesting that your career, whenever you were, whenever you were transitioning from news magazine stuff to, you know, kind of reality shows with extreme makeover, that's also like, kind of in the gear transition or what I remember is the gear transition because, mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but like, extreme makeover and those things like, those are still beta key, right?

Yeah, in the beginning,

still having to do like, you know, kind of a modern day reality show, but you were still doing it in the old style with HMIs and and Dato Dito lights and you know, reefer lights and shit, right? Whereas we're like, we think about reality television, we're like, oh, yeah, it's a fucking one by and a camera that can work well in low light situations, whereas it was just a completely different thing, like equipment wise back then, right?

Speaker 2 (46:01.89)
Yeah, it was a lot of big heavy gear for sure. And putting people in boxes and saying, well, Extreme Maker is probably not a great example, but it was, it was lot of big, big, big, big lights so the cameras could see and putting them in place.

And so now it seems like it's a little bit just because of technology. It seems like it's a little bit easier to achieve both where you can still make it good life, still make it look good because you you can achieve a shallow depth of field and all that stuff much easier than you could back in the day. So you can sort of concentrate more on just the real content in front of you because the technology can make it look better than in the beta SP days.

And we have so much more soft lights that are the powerful soft lights as opposed to hard

He's a sound guy, John, you'll have to excuse him. He'll entire production just to, you know.

is the threat.

Speaker 3 (46:58.338)
Fortunately, I'm half dead.

Whoa, we just had an earthquake. it's still happening. You see my dog back there?

man, I was just saying the other day

shit.

Go get safe, John.

Speaker 2 (47:12.024)
Let me go see it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hang on.

Goodness, ooh, we don't have those a lot in Texas.

Two minutes later

Speaker 2 (47:24.632)
That was crazy.

You okay, man?

Yeah, it's a I just got an emergency alert earthquake detected drop cover hold on protect yourself. my god

still there.

Speaker 1 (47:36.364)
Nosh.

shit.

Wow, we're capturing news right now.

Yeah, John, is the news.

My gosh. Well, I'm sure there's

Speaker 3 (47:46.826)
I saw your whole image shaking and everything.

I have lived in this house for 23 years and that's the first I've felt it like that here. Wow. That was an actual shake. mean, I've had, we've had, can remember maybe twice in the last 23 years, felt like a, it felt like something just like, like kind of just dropped. This was an actual tremor. Wow.

Yeah, I think you always want to be capturing the new story, not being part of

Wow.

Yeah. Wow. Dog dogs go in and everything. Wow. He stayed there on that comfy couch though.

Speaker 2 (48:29.186)
I know but she freaked out and she's a she's she's very calm dog except obviously when neighbors walk by

You know, in the middle of fucking earthquake. That's understandable.

Man, that was crazy. was two sec-

Careful of the aftershocks. Yeah, yeah, it was like two little quakes.

to two.

Speaker 2 (48:47.694)
Really mad at me because I touched my wire at first.

Yeah, that's I said I said the

Natural disaster talk. Have you ever been in a tornado?

I have not been in a tornado. did cover a hurricane with Dan Rather and we chased the hurricane. When we left, I got called at like five in the afternoon and we got a red eye, Dustin and I got on a red eye and met, and now people are texting me, are you all right? We met him in Florida because it was supposed to be in Florida. No, we met him in Georgia.

Feel free to respond.

Speaker 2 (49:27.362)
because it was supposed to be there, but the hurricane kept going south. So we drove down the coast into Florida where it finally hit and that whole drive, I mean, there were tornado warnings, there was all kinds of crazy stuff and loads of traffic going that way and we were headed like one of two cars going that way.

Yeah. Look at these. Have you ever did the L.A. quakes or.

I did I did cover the the big ones that happened in the early 90s And I was in a satellite truck with with an aftershock that was like that was the most Tremendous one that I had and and also once the next morning in a hotel room where we had an aftershock I was literally Like my motion I had like motion sickness for a while after that

Don't go on a cruise. Advise again. All right. So out of all the all the news segments and we'll include news magazine stuff, what's your most memorable one that you've been a part of?

Hahaha!

Speaker 2 (50:30.998)
I have to say, the first one that comes to my mind, mean, you know, just like when people ask me what my favorite episode of Catfish is, there's no real answer. Same thing with news because it's like, they're in so many different categories, you know? It's like, this was the most heartwarming one. This was my favorite character. This was the most great, greatest adventure of all. was, so one of the things that's coming to my mind right now, like kind of like,

my gosh, look at my background now, I'm sorry. The sun came out, the sun came out. It's on fire. Anyways, my most memorable was covering the LA riots as a local newsman. Talk about no, it was just me and a local reporter, two dumb guys that like are barely 30 years old. And

Yes, it's terrible.

Speaker 1 (51:08.584)
You're still good at comparison.

Speaker 2 (51:26.69)
I mean, I would think that if any, you your audience probably, nobody was even alive back then. That was in the early 90s, I think.

So were you doing like man on the street shit with the looters?

pardon me. We literally didn't know what we were doing. We just drove to L.A. in the middle of the night when we heard it was on fire and then looked for. You know, we're in, you know, we're in south central L.A. and like everything is on fire. And I mean, it was like it was very dangerous at the end of that first day. You know, nobody knew what to do. But the but the.

didn't have to look

Speaker 2 (52:02.818)
The media kind of settled on like, this is where we're doing our live shots for some reason out by some command center. Police didn't know what they were doing either. And I remember like, it was such a dire experience that the cops kind of brought, towed in a car and in the car was a driver still in its seatbelt dangling dead, being towed into the command center because you know, a normal police

event like that. They'll cover the body or something and or they won't even you know, they won't even move until the corners come and they do all their thing. I was like, wow, this is the craziest, craziest thing in the world. And we a crew left to go to the hotel and they came back in five minutes and all their windows had been shot out. It was the wildest wildest thing in the world.

crazy.

Speaker 1 (52:58.508)
Mine, by the way, most dangerous, was shooting a fruit juice commercial in the favela in Brazil where we had to have security and our security guy was the ex-drug lord of that particular favela for a fruit juice commercial.

None of that surprises me.

ridiculous this industry.

Yeah. So fast forward. You got on to catfish because of Tom Foreman. You're right. Work with them. The first time the show was pitched to you. mean, like, did it did? Did did the pitch of the show end up matching what you guys did out in the field?

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:35.854)
Tom Foreman actually called me into his office and said, and brought it to me and he said, it's happening, Catfish is happening. And I was already familiar with it at that time. And he said, I think your news experience is gonna be good and your spontaneity is gonna be good for this show. And he goes, but there's no money. It's MTV where there's not a lot of money because nobody knew. And he goes,

So Max is your second cameraman. And I was like, can he shoot? And, you know, because in the pilot he couldn't shoot because he was using, they gave him a big, huge camera to shoot with. And, and it was terrible. And, so that's where it started. And I, you know, my first, my first thing on my mind was to find the smallest camera with the best image. With the stabilizer in it that that would make sense of look good on camera that.

And so that's where we found the right camera for it. And so that was the origin of it was. Hey, we want this show to look like just a couple of dudes and, you know, men. I want to say dudes, I mean, men and women out on the road, you know. You know, in a camper van going across the country. And to me, that meant that that means all of us are included, the crew, everybody's everybody's in on this and.

That's how we're gonna embrace that it's just us people. And that became the culture of the show.

Yeah, no kidding. So that was one of the first shows and you guys may have other experiences that, you know, different than mine, but that was the first show that I remember that really mixed cameras and mixed media and really embraced that to give it sort of that real feeling.

Speaker 3 (55:28.674)
Early on, John gave me a call and was we've got, know, tell me about tech specs. We've got whatever. We've got whatever.

C300 or some shit and

at six or five or something like that. We've got we got a shoulder cam and you know, three or four other smaller cameras. Some have that are like that. Don't have time code. Also, by the way, five GoPros or something like that. Well, that sounds like a big crew. No. It's this guy right here running it all, at least conceptually making sure the cameras are in the right place and which actually, you know, that it works perfectly for the style of the show.

Hahaha.

Speaker 3 (56:09.87)
Because you set it down and if something happens in the frame that that's great if nothing does that fine We know we're not using that it's it's made to capture the moment the real life that you were talking about And as a highly effective way and you're able to get angles by doing you know Especially on some of like max's power shots things a whole new perspective on you know, the the emotions and everything that are happening Because they're they're running high for these hopefuls and catfish

Yeah, mean, we it kind of grew from the origin. I mean, you were there at the at the beginning day when it was, you know, it was literally you, me and you, me and and, know, I say Brandon, but our AC at the time. And that was it. That was the entire crew. But at that time, it really was just kind of Max's camera and my camera trying to make up for all the everything else. But what I started to

think about as we went on was like, this is actually kind of with the exception of the stuff that we do in the field, which is just a small part of the show. A lot of the show is. We're sitting down. It's almost like it's like this, you they're at a computer or they're in the room or whatever. And I and I realized that, you know, these guys, these guys, you know, and what I also hate are these fake fake reaction shots of people going, really? You know, these.

You want that in real life. So that's when I started, and trust me, Post hated my gut. They did not like the fact that when I started adding cameras and angles, and already we were using the little PowerShot for Max or the little 105 that I started adding more of those little cameras just so I can get everybody's reaction at the same time in real time. So now somebody says something, but.

I have another camera there that captures Niamh's eyebrow just going like this or going hmm in real time. Now the show becomes way more intense and way more interesting. yeah, at last count, 23 cameras go on on every episode.

Speaker 1 (58:19.756)
Yeah. And so the fact that the cameras didn't match, that really didn't have anything to do. Like it wasn't like a stylistic choice. It was more of just a utilitarian thing of, hey, I need a small camera so I can plan it over there so that we can get all the different reactions that we need.

Yeah, so as the DP part of me hated that they didn't Yeah, it was hard and I didn't like that part of it. But what I hated more was not getting all the reaction as it happens in real time. We established really early on that we were never going to do anything twice unless literally my camera fell off or really the sound person says my mixer just plain stopped working.

Yeah, that's going to be a tough pill to swallow.

Speaker 3 (59:05.742)
It happened once.

Which only happened once and only happened once for my camera kind of like the lens fell off the body but but we so and and I but I I was able to Get over my angst of that because we were already showing max holding a little power shot cannon power shot on camera Anyway, and I knew that I could pick up

a bunch of those for like $300 a piece. then it just started to build from there. And you know what? like I said, Post was not a fan of it. They didn't like looking at all the stuff, let alone the color shifts and all that. they worked, for a while they worked really hard at trying to cover that up and fix it the best they could in Post. And it was David Metzler, the showrunner,

who finally told Post, quit trying so hard. He goes, all I realize is every time I screw John up and he doesn't know where he's supposed to be and he has to find his way, or every time there's a crappy shot but something happens in it, he goes, the show becomes more real. Because it is real. And so let's embrace that. And so, you know, it wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the executive producer that embraced it wholly. Well, but the new shows, it's...

kind of rare that they don't look great because I have cannons all the way across and they have the ability to really match each other and I shoot them at a wide DR mode and the GoPro is flat and they're able to just throw LUTs on them and deal with it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55.611)
If you had the choice to put a camera operator on each of those cameras, like what how would that affect?

Yeah, it wouldn't do well. It wouldn't do well at all because so many of our scenes as you know Tyler and I know you're throwing this question to me because you already know the answer they're very very intimate and and part of the reason that it works so well is there's just you know, we throw most of the traveling crew with us in vans outside wherever we're shooting or in another hotel room that's across the hallway

And inside the room are literally like two people that aren't on camera, know, or three people, you know, it's Tyler, it's my, it's our AC, Brandon and myself. And we don't generally, and, and, and of course the show runner, everybody else has got to be away. And, and I think the intimacy of that and the comfort that brings to our hosts. mean, they, I think all of that plays into again, these,

the origin story of me, know, getting, and that's always my focus is trying to capture real life as it happens and putting them in an environment that it's real life. And a lot of times I'll set the cameras and then I'll sit down and block myself quietly and try to not, you know, make a lot of noise and stuff like that.

Were you typically in the room or were you like in the hallway or hiding in a

Speaker 2 (01:02:28.782)
Ha!

Well, yeah, it's anywhere that's available. A lot of a lot of the houses are terribly small. There's not a lot of options, usually in the kitchen if they're in the living room. Main thing is just try to stay out of the eye line as best possible.

Would you sit on the kitchen floor? Are you too much of a demon for that?

No, can't see. I've never seen him do that. Unless maybe he had a really, really rough night and that's all he could find.

It's the safest place to be sometimes. you ever taken your what is now your approach on catfish that version of storytelling? Have you taken that to other projects that well.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06.638)
I can't say that I've taken that to other projects, other projects, I've had so many other projects come to me. Yeah. They think that I'm going to bring this certain energy to it. And I'm always happy to do so. it scares producers to tears because the way it goes is a producer gets a project, they call the DP and the first directive is

You're the catfish guy.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34.414)
I want it to be beautiful. want it be soft, bokeh background. This show is going to be completely different because this is going to be the most beautiful show in the world. And again, I think back to my PTSD days of like watching 48 hours go from a very spontaneous show to don't move three inches because you just left my light. I don't, I don't, you know, every time I hear I want it to be beautiful. I mean, there are times that I do like it to be beautiful. Trust me.

But that scares me. But it is, like since Catfish, seems like more and more people do want to know what is the magic? They can't identify it. What is the magic? How are you? How does this show? How do you do it?

Yeah, well, also the across the entire industry and social media, the collective standards have been lowered to it really changes the shift and what the audience really cares about and. Yeah, it's a more or less.

I suppose so.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37.322)
It's because of like things like this like this podcast where you look at our background and people are just decent Not John's background John looks like an actual TV show right we look like a couple up against the wall with you know bad lighting

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52.44)
You look like you're in a podcast room.

I mean, as is, you know, it tracks for us, you know, we're part of the problem, not really part of the solution.

John, how often do you get asked to be in the camera? I know you were in a movie one time.

As you are you. Are you still enjoying your reality?

That was Tyler's way of getting himself into the conversation. He was so hoping that, yeah, you were in that movie too, Tyler.

Speaker 3 (01:05:19.438)
The orderly that come in, it's just hilarious.

What was your last residual check? much?

there's

It was just dwindled down to about 18 or $20 a quarter. And then, you know, like maybe during the Christmas season, I think we might get up to 100 bucks or something like that.

But it was pretty good in the beginning. our host, our host, like when the show, when the show Catfish was really in the zeitgeist there for a while back when Tyler was on it full time. Neve, our main host, started texting back and forth with Tyler Perry. Tyler Perry really loved the show. And so eventually Tyler Perry wrote a Catfish

Speaker 2 (01:06:10.944)
element in a movie called no was it nobody's fool

Yeah, it'll be in nobody's fool is the name of

And and wanted the real host of the show to be on the show called even max did come come do the show and Meve God love him said, know what? think I'll feel more comfortable if I have my real cameraman in the in doing camera and he was like fine bring bring you can have you can bring up to three people you bring three people and even I talked and even though Tyler had already left the show, you know, he was he's our guy and

So of course we called and invited Tyler and it was the coolest, funnest experience.

It was super fun. a lot about a lot of things, that Niamh would do that and consider something. But also, you know, opens up, wow, at this point, we're actors.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10.951)
We didn't really get a lot of direction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but he never had to he never had to fix us either

That's true. were one take wonders here.

guys are a of naturals.

We nailed it.

gonna call you out if

Speaker 3 (01:07:28.142)
Yeah, it's 100 % true. like, know, flew his first class to Atlanta to the studios. It was really neat to see the scripted narrative side of the business, which I'm not in quite as much as reality. But you know, they treated us with a lot of respect. You know, we've got the I got hair and makeup treatment along with everyone else. The biggest waste of money, I would think. I also got

Right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51.606)
Yeah, they cut my hair.

They had to take the shine off. Shooting into a disco ball.

I think they turned on the razor or something, like, you know, like my first haircut where you're not actually doing anything. OK, I was really in the chair. I got Eddie Murphy's per diem by mistake.

Ha

Speaker 1 (01:08:12.91)
Did you get all the stuff like with the rider too like the like the candy

Did it?

I forgot about it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:19.027)
Now that I got I sent the orange &Ms back.

What was Eddie Murphy's?

It was $75 which was $25 higher than mine which

I personally feel.

proud of you know what that's a win dude that's a win dude yeah absolutely i mean i was

Speaker 3 (01:08:34.466)
He's certainly worth it.

So it was a fun time. yeah, it's fun. Fun things like that happen in this industry.

One of my greatest memories is like when the limo dropped us on set and the people, whoever came to get us got us and started walking us to our dressing rooms and I heard her get on the radio and say, A-Team's walking. yeah. was like, yeah, that's right. A-Team on set.

yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:05.986)
Yeah, on set.

I don't remember meeting my stand in.

What just went up?

Yeah, I think you lost the last.

Backlight, our backlight went out. My shine went away. That's okay. That's okay. We still sound all right. well, I've got a- right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22.99)
I'm out.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28.814)
That's how we sound a couple sound guys doing a podcast. We sound

We care enough. Before we let you go, got one more segment. It's called our martini round. It's a little behind the scenes trivia. So worst craft service snack you've ever had. Yeah, you can answer.

Help.

Good. Fried,

I know how you feel about fried things. One piece of gear you'd save in a fire.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54.687)
man. Camera. Sorry. I can't think of anything funny.

Just just a camera. OK, what's your biggest onset pet peeve?

My biggest onset pet peeve is people complaining about lunch.

Open walkies.

Those are all bad. What's one thing you tell your first day on set?

Speaker 2 (01:10:15.022)
Quit trying so hard to be liked.

Amazing. That's all I got for that round.

I'm sorry, terrible answer.

That's all right, that'll that'll work. Let me get your take on the state of the industry real quick before we go. 2025 things have changed a lot. Dreaming wars are sort of now had a couple of strikes that impacted things a lot. What do feel like? Where are things now? Where is it going? What's your take on that based on everything you've seen?

So

Speaker 2 (01:10:50.606)
Yeah, well, I will tell you my take and I'm hoping to get some, you guys will give me some hope because unfortunately I feel very dire about it and I worry, my son worked on The Bachelor and I'm just worried about when that gig ends, what is there gonna be anything left for him? Cause I'll be okay, I mean, I've had a good 40 year run and I don't really need to do this anymore. But I mean, I think that the biggest impact right now is with

streaming cable crashing and cable networks about to totally cave. think it might end up being a catfish. That also these reality shows that you and I have been doing for the past 10, 15 years are also going away. And I wonder if that is the case. And I mean, in LA,

Reality television was down like 78 % last year.

Yeah, vacant studios and everything.

Everything I just read a report today that said writers jobs are 40 % down this year. And I wonder, I wonder, you know, I mean, in 40 years, I've always been, I always felt so lucky that the entertainment business was kind of bulletproof from a con economic drops. But this is, this is so different. And I wonder

Speaker 2 (01:12:21.09)
Do you think, either people are just tired of watching reality shows? Or have reality, are they going the way of, like when I was in college, it was all soap operas all day long. Like four hours of soap operas. Soap operas died and reality television became the new soap opera. And now I hate to say it, but I feel like reality shows are dying and.

you know, except for the big behemoth reality shows like, like the bachelor and the, you know, the, yeah, or right. And game shows and cooking shows or whatever, but, those jobs are kind of rare and they shoot two seasons in, like a month's time. And that's it. got 11 months to go find more work.

Dancing with the stars and...

Speaker 2 (01:13:15.008)
And so, you know, did the unions do too good of a job negotiating? Is it because of cable? Am I wrong? Give me something to hope.

I feel like it's I feel like it's a lot of these things these things intertwined at the same time as soon as viewership Switched over to a lot of phones being accessible as a platform. What was the Quibi quibi is the one I'm thinking of Go at it. I they saw the sort of the writing on the wall and we're trying to capitalize it maybe a little too early, but now you know the

Go 90.

Speaker 3 (01:13:53.57)
the barrier for entry has long been cost. And that is gone by the wayside with, you know, everyone having a phone and an idea and putting something out there because as we sort of leaned into a lot recently content is king. So you just make something good or have a genuine idea. And, know, you don't need a network to show that you put it on YouTube or the social media platform is there. And if somebody else likes it a lot more, you're either going to get more interest from

corporations or sponsorships or possibly even networks, but I think it's shifted entirely and it's going, content's being created from the ground up rather than the ceiling down.

I agree with that and I think there will be produced content, but I think that it's going to be that upper echelon produced content and the reality stuff that we're talking about. Yeah, that is.

largely going to go away and just be completely replaced with self-created content. And I don't think that it will be consumed in 30 minute or one hour minute or 30 minute or one hour episodes. It's going to be consumed three minutes at a time. But that appetite for reality television is going to be, you know, satisfied through watching content creators in, you know,

I've been.

Speaker 2 (01:15:18.542)
YouTube.

90 seconds to four and a half minute.

I think I think we've also the pendulum has swung a little bit of like self shot or like, know shooting you just making your own content people do seem to value production value and that sort of stuff but like if you take like the dude perfect guys for example there I think they're a great example. They were very self shot but now it's grown into a tremendous production team and it's But when I'm on set with them, they're thinking about it and it that that functions entirely different

than any network show that you've ever been a part of. They are sort of producers on it. They know what's interesting. So they're gonna do it. They're not waiting for approvals. You don't have these mandates. like, that sounds kinda fun. mean, of course they're prepared with props and things like that, but it's a totally different vibe than if you were on a network.

Right, right.

Speaker 2 (01:16:12.234)
That's an upside. I mean the downside is the pie when I started in the business was cut like four ways and all the viewers were there. So even if you were number four, you were still getting millions and millions of viewers. Now it's been sliced so many ways. What does that do to people trying to be in this business today?

It's going to it's going to weed out a lot of people. You already have people, you know, having a side hustle for anyone young in the business is 100 % necessary. It's not ideal, but it's just the facts. You know, I don't think the rates necessarily have gone down as dramatic as everybody makes it sound, but there's a lot less to go around and people in a lot of ways, especially as things get more expensive. We're it's there's a whole whole nother episode.

Yeah

economics you know kind of where we are

It's affecting the manufacturers as well, know, the companies that make the microphones and the recorders. I mean, I would assume the cameras also, even though I have no direct knowledge of that. But we do have direct knowledge that on the audio side, at least the manufacturers are suffering as much as the freelancers.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27.756)
Yep. Yeah, for sure.

John DeTarsio, Director of Photography. Thanks so much for joining us. we don't have a cool outro yet, so this is all we got. Thanks for coming on board. It's been really fun to chat with you again, and I'll see you on the road.

It was an honor my friend. Both of you guys, thank you so much. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

Good to see you again, John.

See you in an airport.