Join the Creative Work Hour Podcast's first episode as we explore the differences between creating for yourself versus others, and the impact on the creative process. Dive into discussions about perfectionism, creative flow, and the value of personal projects. Tune in for thought-provoking insights and practical tips from our diverse creative panel.

Hello and welcome to the Creative Work Hour podcast. Today is a very special day. During the month of November we brought you a short podcast every day as part of National Podcast Post Month. Today is the very first episode Of the podcast proper and we'll be bringing you an episode once a week. I will ask a question and the crew will give their answer and their take on that question and We will just have a little conversation. 

So without further ado, I'll get to the first question: How does creating something for yourself differ from creating something for someone else, and how does that difference affect your process? I will go to Alessandra, and isn't this exciting our very first episode of the inaugural?

Yes and I'm a little nervous too, kind of goofy nervous so yeah but I'll cut right to it. I could make it more complicated by saying, am I getting paid or not paid? Because I go mental when there's money involved. Like I will eat all kinds of time because I'm like, oh, I should already have this perfected so it shouldn't take this time. 

So it shouldn't have taken this much time. So I'll just only charge for this much. Okay. Now that kind, it needs mending with professional help. I admit that. But if I am doing something for somebody else, I feel like I have to really clear my calendar to do it. Like I don't allow myself to do a shitty first draft for other people. I'll just change my phone number and my address and not tell them where I went. I'll just drop out of their lives. Even to volunteer. Because I don't want them to see all the goobers that I make in my work. 

But if it's just for me, I'm kind of lazy. It's like, oh well if I get started that could be stressful because I'm a terrible boss with myself. So it would be really interesting if we come back to this question, Greg, next year at this time, and see if we've made any progress from it.

That would be fun, That would be fun. Gray, what have you got for us?

I'm kind of glaring at Alessandra because I thought I had come up with a very unique answer, but actually my answer is very similar to hers. Sometimes money is involved, but sometimes it's just as a favor or something like that. If I am doing something for someone else, it somehow feels more worthy, more useful, as if it has more value, whether that's monetary or something else. And if I'm doing something for myself, it has a level of guilt associated with it. If I'm doing something for someone else, then I'm doing the right stuff. I'm doing the appropriate things. I'm doing a good thing. If I do something for myself, it kills. I get the whole guilt trip of selfishness and things like that. And as a result, the guilt trip means that when I'm doing things for myself, it tends to be more rushed. It doesn't have a set time put out for it unless I'm like I was trying to mention something extra trying to change that habit. But I do realize that it is not a good thing. But it is also because there is a part of me that I am trying to make friends with that resents the fact that I haven't made art for myself, it also tends to be a little bit more angry. 

I'll say then it's kind of a bleep you world, I'm going to do this. And I guess there is 1 last difference. You talked about how it is different from quality and I have an actual like vignette for that. I was preparing for an art show that I was going to be vending at. And I was, my thought was that these little notebook sets would sell. And so I was making like 12 different of the same set of 3 notebooks and a bookmark and folder. And I was getting tired. I think I was in like the eighth one and I was just getting tired of it. And I was sitting there, I'm like, you know what? I'm tired of this. I don't want to do this anymore. I'm just going to make a collage. 

I started just grabbing stuff and putting stuff and it was working for myself and doing what I wanted to do and putting it in there. And at the end, I had a little piece and I'm like, yeah, you know, this is a collage piece that I can slap the label of art on it and I'll submit it to the show. Why not? Now the notebooks did sell. I was right about that. They did. So when I did, when I, when I booked, but the art piece also was the very first piece that sold at the show itself. Like it was my first professional art piece that somebody came and bought. And so I guess the answer might be that if I would trust to work with myself, maybe that would be the stuff that is more valuable. Because it definitely sold for more money than those little notebooks. So thank you, Greg. 

Thank you for the perspective.

Does Jennifer want to take part?

Yeah, I actually really, when you said this question, I was like, ooh, wow, this like you're looking into my soul. I am a big believer in building in public and experimenting for myself. I just throw spaghetti against the wall and, you know, run with scissors and just do crazy things to see, to follow my curiosities. However, when I work with clients, it is none of that. It is very polished, very professional. And I will do exactly what Alessandra and Greg talked about where I will work long hours, pull all-nighters day after day after day in order to deliver something that I feel extremely proud of. Now, whether the client knows how much time I spent, it doesn't actually matter. They're paying for me to deliver a product or a service to them, but I will give my clients the very best of myself. And years ago, I realized that I wasn't leaving anything for myself. And that's when I opened myself up to experimentation, not to say that national podcast post month back in 2007, or even podcasting in 2005 wasn't an experiment. It was, but I became intentional about experimentation. And I actually went into a whole zone of every single month I was experimenting, doing something new. And I would announce it and I would do it. And sometimes it was a success. 

Sometimes it was less so, but either way it was a win because I learned something. So I think what I, where I am at now is that I am still not giving myself as much, as much time and attention as I would a client. And my goal is to do that for myself, much like Gray, where we maybe don't give ourselves enough credit or enough value. And if we did imagine all the things that we could do, because the few times that I've allowed myself to really go out there, like podcasting and national podcast Post Month and other things, events, they've been really successful. But how many of those types of things that I second guess and push to the side and poo poo within myself because I just didn't have the same dedication and focus that I give to clients. That doesn't mean I want to not to give that to clients. I love it. I love the work I do. 

But I think it is the creator's paradox of how much is for us, how much is for others, and what's that balance and changes depending on who we are at any given moment in our life.

Okay. Devin, how about yourself? What's your take on this?

Man, you know, being expected to be creative for other people, just unless there's so much productivity in me for housekeeping, for running errands, meal prep, binge drinking, it's just good for everything except creative productivity, which grinds to a halt because of the perfectionism and the self editing and criticizing. Whereas, especially if I've got inspiration for an idea. If I like, I have an idea like, oh, what an idea for a great little skit. I'll just, the flow just starts because it's just me and everyone's watching. And if I could reverse that, I could quit this day job there. I've broken the language barrier. Now we've got that straight.

Out in the open now. Thank you, Devin. Bobby B.

Hey there. Gosh, I actually don't react very differently other than I'm a bit more upfront, I'm doing work for a client because I value their time and I'm going to charge them for mine. Whereas if I'm doing it for myself, I create my boundaries a little differently. If it's not coming together, I know most of the time I can set it aside and come back to it when my mind's in a slightly different place. But beyond that, I am just a wild and crazy guy regardless.

Thank you, Bobby. Ken, what's your take on this?

I guess I would say that most of my creative stuff is just for myself. I don't tend to do projects for others. I can only think of 1 that I did back a few years ago where I made 30 small artworks for a group of people that supported me when I went out on the land for a few days. And so there was a support group around that whole effort. And so it's a thank you. I did artwork for each of them. But yeah. 

You make public blog posts. I'm sorry to step over, I know bad, bad participant, but you do public blog posts. Like you have posted on your blog some amazing stuff that's clearly for others like me to read.

Oh, that's writing, Devin. We're talking about fine art, you know, where you get out your cup of tea and you do very elevated things. Anyway, I'll be quiet now.

Thank you, Ken. Gretchen, how about you?

I had to smack Ken around there for a minute. That was funny. No, I, the funny, I guess maybe the fortunate thing is that most of my creativity, if it comes to my art, to my photography, is done for me first. And then when it goes out there, it's done to my satisfaction. It's done the way I want it. I go out and shoot for my own, not necessarily with the purpose of putting it out on my website and having somebody. It's part of what I do. And there's a lot more in my own catalog that never gets seen than gets put out on my website. 

But when it comes to doing it, if it's for others, it's gotta be the 1 that I did for myself first that I really, really like. Very rarely do I try to put together stuff that I think other people don't fit the trend or the niche or something like that. Might be more successful if I did, but for now it's not that thing. I do when I, if it's for family, I'll spend a lot of time on that, that image that I'm going to put out for everybody or or whatnot. 

But that's still for me. So if it's out there for the general public, yeah, they're gonna like it or not. And yeah, I've never thought about it. I've never really thought about it as I get kind of crazy before I put something on it because I get crazy enough when I do it for myself.

Thanks Gretchen. Bobby, you had your hand up.

Yeah, something I've forgotten in Classic innovation brainstorming, 1 out of 3 ideas is supposed to come out of left field. So I'll do that and I'll see if the customer wants to spend a little bit of time on that and also making sure the words we're using mean the same thing. And I found that really critical if they're paying for a job too. That's invaluable time on day 1. And other than that, as I said before, then my approach is very, very similar.

Hillary, how about you?

Thank you, Greg. Okay, so I definitely agree a lot with what a lot of people are saying, but My addition would be that there's certain things where we're creating for myself and creating for others would be the same or should be the same. Now again, now we're talking about hindsight reflection versus application. Because if I were to pull through in the manner of which I wish, anything I'm creating, you know, is for, I'm a Virgo, so everything needs to be purposeful. I'm a form follows function kind of gal. And So if I were to take the time to reflect, what is my why? 

What is my end result? What do I need? That would be something I should similarly go across the board for myself, for someone else, and things like that. But there's definitely gonna be differences in regards to self versus others work. Because I feel like even my work at my job is creating. And so I'm making drawings all day, I'm making packages, you know, something for someone else artistically of information. And so I've got to give it its due diligence. Again, this is what we'll call it work that's paid for. And it's easier to give diligence to that than it is self, like, you know, like the guilt for working on one's own things, because what's the point? It's, you know, frivolous, it's luxury, but there's nothing wrong with that. 

That means we're successful and we have the luxury to play with our time and we don't have to be rated every minute being an adult. So I think that would be a big difference in the 2, you know, for, you know, what are you getting out of it? You know, which are why, and then, yeah, prepping yourself for what it is you want it to do.

Thank you, Hillary. Ella, how about you?

I have this dichotomy where I love making things for other people, but I hate making things for other people for a price. So for me, if someone's buying it, I hate it. If I've made it in advance and they want to buy something I've already made, that's fine. But if they commission me, I hate it. I always feel like if it's specifically commissioned, there's so much more stress about making it something that they would like and feel satisfied with as opposed to if I'm presenting a finished product for them to choose from, way less stressful because they can already see the result. 

So I find, like I make lots of gifts for people, that's fine. I do that all the time. I have many, many Christmas gifts for my family this year. But commissioned work is very stressful. Working for myself, it depends. Sometimes I just enjoy playing. It's less quote-unquote creating and just exploring with colors and sites and different things like that. 

Specifically, creating something for myself is a bit harder. I often feel like, oh, like, should I really be spending money on this project? Like, I'm working on a blanket for myself right now and there's a lot of thought about how much money I spent on high quality yarn for this? Like I like using ethical yarn so it was not cheap despite being 70% off it was still not cheap So it's just like this a little bit of a guilt trip almost for having splurged on something despite it matching my values and being something I want to do. It's still a little bit of a mental block there versus spending the same amount of money for a friend, no problem. So yeah, that's for me.

Thank you, Elena. Shadows, how about you? What's your take?

It's really rare for me to do custom work for anybody. So for the most part, the process remains the same other than if I do agree to do it. The instructions have to be crystal clear and we have to fully understand each other, or it's at the commissioners' issue or expense, if there's an issue.

So I'll pass it back to our illustrious leader, Alessandra.

I was thinking about what Shadows just said, and I don't know, it's, we won't really go there the way that we would if we weren't recording together. But once money gets into it, it shifts the whole acid-base pH of the creative system. And oh my gosh, what I loved about being, because I did things backwards. I went to design school after I sold my design company. And I remember the first time I heard this phrase. It was someone working next to me and there were like 6 of us in a studio at a time. And her name was Jessica and Jessica said, she sat back from her work on the drafting board and she said, I quite like that. And I looked at her like she had 3 heads. I couldn't think of a single design that I had ever done where I sat back and looked at that which I had made and said, I quite like that. 

It took me months to figure out that there is space for that in our creative work. No matter who the recipient of that work is, it matters whether we quite like it. That in the brain is part of the Pleasure Center to be able to say, I did a thing. I breathed in and out today and I quite like that. So, Greg, thank you so much for this topic. You know you picked a good question for us when we all just got into it like a good meal. So thank you. 

And what about you, Greg?

You know, I was listening to other people's answers and I can relate a lot to it. I don't know if it's having an ADHD thing or other neurodivergent thing. But I have a hard time placing value on things I do for myself and if I'm doing something for somebody else I tend to have much higher expectations from myself for that but I have a hard time putting a monetary value to it because I don't feel worthy, maybe it's imposter syndrome or something of that nature, but I have a hard time putting a value to it. And everyone, you know, there's so many people say, well, Greg, you know, you could, you should, you know, charge, you could do this. And I don't see what other people see In myself which is very difficult But I do struggle with that.

Bobby I'm not sure if you're on a burning desire we're kind of on time here, but

What are my thoughts? I learned early on that there's things I think are absolutely incredible that others don't and there's things that I think are tossaways that people love. And so that kept me from judging what I do And I'm willing to be far more open to get it out there and see how it hits. And at times throw it back out there 5 or 10 years later and see if it sticks now.

I think the big takeaway from today is we should never undervalue what we do, whether it's for ourselves or someone else. Any creation is important and you put your time and effort into that, whether it's for yourself or for somebody else. Don't undervalue yourself. You are more than worth it. But how does your relationship with time change when you enter a creative flow state? And we're all about flow, aren't we? 

Alessandra, I'll give it to you.

Well, I think I'll put it in the context of, This is a really good question, Greg. I'll put it in the context of my music practice. As Creative WorkHour, we meet a couple of times a day, early in the day and later in the day. And later in the day, that spot started as musicians only. And it has grown into an extra space that doesn't have a flow track, a music track going like the straight up proper creative work hour does. And I have found that I lose time, not like in a, I have a disassociated kind of way, but if you really think about flow, flow is a kind of trance. 

It's where you have filtered out a lot of the stuff that would be going in and taking your attention, and the brain has a way of going into this delta wave flow state that filters out the extras a little bit like noise cancellation, how that works. And when you're in that, when you're in that glow, in that avenue of a focused attention on a certain type of thing, it actually does affect how the brain tells time. And so that's part of why Creative Work Hour is called a work hour, is because we pick a container that's 60 minutes long to do everything we need to do from saying hello to checking in to doing a teeny tiny meditation, having the sound of a real Tibetan bell, and then we go into flow. 

And all of those things came from 3 years of research on how this really works? Not if you're in a lab, but if you're with light-minded friends. And so I find that when I am in the hour of practice not perfect, working on my music, I lose time. And it starts with this kind of a transition. I don't want to practice. And then, okay, fine, I'll practice for 5 minutes. Once I do that, 5 minutes is 15 and 15 is 25. The next thing I know it's time to come back because we're at 5 minutes to the top of the hour. So I would say that time, like space, is all relative. It depends on what you're doing with it. How are you spending it? Great question. Thank you.

Devin, what are your thoughts on this?

Well, when I'm in the flow of my relationship with time shifts and then I develop a preference for parsley, sage, even rosemary, I don't know what the deal is with that. But if you're talking about the fourth dimension, there's an inverse relationship between the depth of my flow and the passage of time. I mean, the deeper I'm in flow, the slower time is passing for me and the faster it seems to be going outside. I think a lot of people have that experience. So it's almost a measure of how deep our flow was. Well, what's the difference between the passage of time as I perceived it and what it really was.

Right, Thank you, Devin. Thank you. 

Dr. Tamika, you're next on my screen, what are your thoughts on this topic?

So I'll have to piggyback off on what Alexandra said. The container. When I am in a creative flow, I reiterate my container. Since I was 15, I've read many books on time management. I've cut a lot of places where I have fluff, and I get to the nuts and bolts of things. But when it's time for creative work, my container expands because I need it to. I will have defined spaces, for example, like Alexandra said, the pitch not perfect, the 1 hour, but when I'm alone and I know or I think that I'll be there for 30 minutes, I expand it to 3 hours because I want to milk that creative flow for everything it has for me. And if I interrupt myself, I will come in and out of it. And I think I will miss things which will negate all of the learning that I've done since I was 15 with my time management skills.

Thank you, Dr. T I appreciate that. Next up on my screen we have Shadows Pub. How about you, Shadows?

Well, I'd say I have a fickle relationship with time at the best of times. So if I get really into something I just kick it to the curb Unless it happens to be at a certain time of day and then some damn cat decides to interfere. That's about it.

Those darn cats. I don't know. 

Artemis, I know that this is an interesting subject for you?

Well, when I get into my creative flow, I tend to become part of the DC universe and time is the supervillain. And I feel like the flash when he's standing in the middle and the whole world is going super slow around him, but he is just going crazy and he's accomplishing so many things. That's how I feel. And I wake up out of my creative trance, so to speak, and several hours could have passed when I thought it was maybe 15 or 20 minutes.

Bobby?
I'm so focused on what I'm doing. I just lose track of time All the time. It's great. It's great.

Thank you, Bobby. And you know, I have ADHD, many creatives have ADHD, right? And there's such a thing as time blindness. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that, but I certainly suffer from time blindness. And when I get into a creative flow state, and it doesn't happen all the time, but when you get that wind in your sails, and you're in that creative mood, time for me can go out the window and before I know it, you know, a whole day's gone by, you know, my legs are crossed, I need to go to the bathroom, I don't want to get up because I don't want to interrupt this flow state that I've got, I haven't eaten, you know, 6 months later they come in and you're with a way in the time blindness for me is a very real thing when I'm in the flow state. 

And we were talking about different techniques. Early We were talking about the Pomodoro technique. That's 1 technique to try and maximize the use of time. And I know Alessandra, you did some study or certainly looked up some research on that. I don't know if you want to talk about any of the research that goes with that or not?

Well, the Pomodoro, OK, like I use that term, Pomodoro method, which is basically a 20 minute timer container devoted to a particular task that you've identified. I was like, who's Mr. Pomodoro? Pomodoro is not a person, but the guy who named it, he named it for a tomato. He named it for a tomato because in Italy, very common, like in the United States, the very common shape of a kitchen timer is an egg. But in Italy, a very common shape of a kitchen timer is a tomato or in Italian a pomodoro.

So there you go. There's your trivia about the pomodoro method.

I've seen that timer, the tomato timer, and I did not make any associate. Oh okay, it's a tomato timer. Wow.

Yeah, but you know when you're in school, it's like you may have a teacher suggest something like that to you. Like, you just need to sit down for 30 minutes and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. My thing is I have the opposite of hyper-focus. I have a difficult time getting going at all, much less host creative work hour and do something else at the same time. It's extremely difficult for me to get going. And once I do, I would like to say that I kick the time to the curb and lose track of time, but that's not really how it works for me at all. It's kind of a cruel taskmaster that all I want to do is figure out how to enhance flow so that I have some chance in hell at doing the thing that I teach and talk and write about so much, getting into flow, enhancing it, getting the most out of it, because I want it to be 1 of those things that allows people that no matter where they are in life, whether they're busy moms or they're stage 4, something scary. We still have creative work in us that wants to be born. And maybe that's part of how the universe set me up to have such a love for seeking outflow is that it's such a hard to get experience for me. But if I can do it with,

And I was discussing this with Shadows Pub earlier, that I have about 4 hours a day that I could pay attention to something, that I can work on something. Now, that's not very long. But if I can enhance the flow of those 4 hours. It's not gonna be 60 minutes times 4. 

No, no, no, no, no, no. Because you have to ramp up for flow, you have to get on the highway of flow, you gotta navigate the traffic of flow, you gotta decide what to do when traffic starts to stack up, because this is reality. But I want to design our flow, and I want to design the safety and warmth of the group of Creative Work Hour to be that on your very worst stinking day, that you can still do that thing that only you were set on this earth to do.

So there you have it, some thoughts on time, flow and creativity. 

What about you? 

What's your relationship with time?

Let us know, we'd be interested to hear that.

But it's happened again, you've wasted some Perfectly good time listening to the Creative Work Hour podcast when you could have been doing something else. 

Join us again next week and we'll have another question that the crew discusses. Thank you.