Chapter 3 - Sustainability

 Welcome back. I'm Sonny Fassler. You host a guide as we embark on another chapter exploring people, places, stories and culture through the lens of action sports. This is already our third exhibition together, and our journey so far has taken us from world class waves in Bali to the emerging African nation of Mozambique. And now we pivot, setting our compass to a different kind of odyssey the elusive, often misunderstood realm of sustainability in an environment that slaps the eco friendly label on seemingly anything that moves. We're cutting through the noise, diving beneath the surface into a place where the distinction between real effort and blatant greenwashing blurs. Here, passion wrestles with pretense and double standards, raising the question are the materials we champion eco friendly, really better for our planet, or is it just another facet of the illusion? And we have to ask ourselves, are we just trading one environmental cost for another, masked under the disguise of sustainability in the company of an all-British quartet, we'll navigate these intricate layers of sustainability. Devon's world surfing reserves Adam Hall, Patagonia's Gabe Davis, Fitness Stairs visionary Tom Kay and Billabong Europe's GM Simon Charlesworth have seen the industry's flirtation with sustainability firsthand. But beneath the surface, there's a stark reality the very essence of our sports, from the manufacturing of surfboards to the global distribution of gear, is steeped in irony. We promote a connection with nature, but our carbon footprint tells a different story, arguably negating any positive environmental impact we claim to have. As we delve deeper, the paradoxes become more glaring. The industry preaches sustainability, but at what cost? Durability often takes a backseat, raising the question are we sacrificing quality and longevity for a sustainability badge? And what about the end life of these products? I mean, our oceans and landscapes are cluttered with gear that's hardly recyclable, a testament to our throwaway culture. This journey through sustainability is fraught with lifestyle contradictions. We tout an environmentally cautious lifestyle, yet our manufacturing processes paint a completely different picture. So it raises the question is there a dark underbelly, a lingering hypocrisy in our industry that we're just unwilling to confront? Also, the ethics of our practices come into question when we consider the labor and environmental standards of our global suppliers. Are they aligned with the sustainable image we project, or are we conveniently overlooking uncomfortable truths? And then there are the higher costs associated with a sustainable agenda creating an elitist industry accessible only to the privileged few. So is it our responsibility to make sustainability affordable and accessible to all as we grapple with these questions? Adam, Gabe, Simon, and Tom help us explore the industry's challenges, successes, and areas for improvement, all while searching for a common language between passion, purpose, and the bottom line. We'll push on beyond the marketing copy, expose the flaws, and uncover the raw, unfiltered truth behind sustainable and not sustainable initiatives that impact our lives as adventurers and explorers. As we peel away the layers of this green revolution, it becomes increasingly evident that the road to sustainability is far from straightforward. It's a labyrinth where good intentions often get lost in translation, where the promise of a better tomorrow is sometimes clouded by the mist of today's shortcuts. In the action sports world, where our playgrounds are the mountains, oceans and streets, these contradictions hit closer to home. The gear we use, the boards we ride, the shorts we wear, and even the precession coffee. The go. Are they truly sustainable, or are they just another facet of grand illusion, a figment of eco consciousness? I think the flaws of sustainability are not just in the missteps of policy, but in the very fabric of our understanding. In this tangled web where buzzwords often drown out the truth, we find ourselves at a crossroads. Is sustainability nothing more than a convenient label, or can it be a real catalyst for change, forging and more responsible relationship we have with our planet? The answers are far from simple, and the solutions are even more complicated. But understanding that sustainability isn't a commodity or a trend, that it's an ongoing commitment, a moral responsibility and the cornerstone of our future is a pretty good start. In the next 80 minutes or so, as we unravel this mystery, we'll uncover stories of innovation and resilience, learn about projects that strive to make a difference. And on the flip side, initiatives that falter under scrutiny despite their gloss, challenging us to rethink the way we consume, create and relate to our environment. 

 U2 

 4:57 

 Let's rewind the clock for a second to a time when the concept of an eco conscious outdoor brand wasn't just a novelty, but an audacious venture reserved only for mavericks and visionaries. It was a time when sourcing sustainable and eco friendly materials was a challenge only a few were willing to take on. But in 2003, in an apartment above a surf shop somewhere in the UK, Tom Kay felt there was a better way to make products. Tom wasn't a businessman or a designer by trade. He was a surfer, a biologist, someone who had spent his life around the sea, walking away from well-paying jobs, realizing there is more to life than corporate London. Instead, Tom saw a gap in the market because back then, outdoor clothing brands with an environmental agenda hardly existed. The name Finisterre itself tells a story inspired by one of the rugged headlands on radio four shipping forecast. It symbolizes endurance against the harshest of elements Finisterre, literally meaning end of Earth, encapsulates not just a geographical location, but a place where the land ends and adventure begins. For Tom, it was a fitting metaphor for a brand that would stand against industry norms and weather the storms of fast fashion. Fast forward to today. Finisterre stands as a multi-award winning symbol of innovation and sustainability. But more than that, it's a story of a man who dreamed, who believed his passion for the ocean, surfing and environment could blend into something transformative. As we delve into the personality of Tom Kay. Let's remember that sustainability isn't just about the products we create or the materials we use. It's about people like Tom, whose journey inspires us, challenges us, and reminds us that change often starts with a single step, a bold idea, and the courage to pursue a path less traveled. 

 U3 

 6:52 

 Burns, Tom Kay and the founder finished there as a brand. I started back in 2003. Now I was really born for my love of surfing and cold water surfing, and also deep belief there was a better way of making products, 1s you know, really, really good products. And I guess my story to 1s fashion brand, it wasn't any, you know, clinical, business, strategic sort of decision or, you know, plan. It was really kind of a lot of belief and conviction that there was room in the world for brand life. And it's there, um, that we were going to do things differently, trying to make the right decisions. Um, use of brands, the example of, you know, doing things better, um, as well as being a really great place where people could work. Um, and so, yeah, that was 

 U4 

 7:46 

 kind of the answer, I suppose. You know, 

 U3 

 7:47 

 I'd always been brought up in The Love of the sea and to my family and being a big part of my life. And, um, so my formative years, like 1560 a really got into surfing and, you know, like many people get team sports or music or art or whatever it is. For me, that was of my kind of my, my outlet for everything, you know, was my time. You know, the friends I formed as a place there went, um, you know, probably how I dressed everything in it. But I remember it was, you know, it's kind of and, you know, it became, you know, something I really kind of fell in love with and it became part of my life. Um, so I went to uni. I did biology, like big marine focus to it and then end up in London, as part of which is a very, you know, very interesting job. Wasn't for me anyway. And, 1s you know, at that point when I think things taken away from me realize what is you miss the. And so I had to build a brand around my passion to see big part of my life. And that's a lot of it. Um, I was aware that, you know, the the damage was going on to the ocean. And I was also where, you know, the, you know, a lot of the brands in my space, i.e. surfing back then, weren't really connecting to me, i.e. making a product I needed. You know, surfing in UK, it's really kind of it's rainy, windy or the rest of the things everyone knows about the UK, but on this day has some of the best waves that you know anywhere, as anywhere else. I also saw those bikinis and boardshorts from these surf brands. Those aren't that wasn't relevant to me, and also in terms of the way they made and looking at sustainability and responsible businesses and transparency, I wanted to address that. So first I really came was born from the kind of combination of those factors. Yeah. The name. 

 U4 

 9:45 

 Comes from the radio fortune forecast area, and this is like a BBC four forecast that goes out twice a day, really kind of early hours of the day, like 5:00 in the morning. Think it is or 5 to 6 just for the news. And 1s it covers all the key areas around the UK. And it's been in place for quite a long time actually. It's all about it's all over know it's the forecast for, you know, mariners, fishermen, sailors, that sort of thing. And you know, is there's always areas around the UK government code names and that's all defined in the map. But actually you kind of find them at sea. So um, but they are really there to sort of save lives. We all have storms, that sort of thing, but also people who have never been out to sea in their life listen to 

 U3 

 10:32 

 the forecast because it's very romantic and a very real sea thing going on. I'd like to remember listening to a forecast and learning it where the areas where what the forecasts are talking about. Um, when I was driving around in my parents car and these Middle East huge gales and then imagine these boats miles out at sea and these little, you know, huddled around the ship's radio, whatever it was, you know, listening to the forecast. So that's the range of the forecast. And then the brand itself here started here in Saint Agnes from speaking to you, from where the businesses are located on the cliffs of North Cornwall's pretty wild day here. Does nice swell running down the cove before the wind's good. You're supposed to go around later. Um, but it starts strong above the surf shop. This here in middle of town of the village and in a three page website. And build this fleece. There is sort of for surfers when they go out and seeing this freezing cold day in February day and what they put on when you change the car park and it's like incredibly warm, windproof, waterproof, breathable, you know, 20 years ago, nothing like this was ever really around. It was made locally and yeah, started selling to the face of one of the my bedroom and the dark mode, and we had to get housemates off the phone to get on the internet, you know, as early commerce days. And that's how the brand started. You know, from, from, you know, those, those humble origins. For me. Something I was doing. You know, I didn't. I wasn't doing it for a long time and for me. But the surfing, I kind of really resonated with that sort of gritty, hard edged surfing the, you know, required a more commitment because it's colder, it's more fickle. It's understanding the weather systems. It's almost like walking on the beach for fun. Perfect. Every day you have to really kind of get to know the area, the beaches, the banks, the, you know, the price systems cutting through these latitudes because person come through so quick and the wind can switch or, you know, one way or the other. And so for me, there was a much more, much richer, deeper connection I had to that cyber surfing. But it was it's it's uncomfortable at times. It's not for everyone. It's for us. But you know, but I think the rewards are because you've kind of committed more, in my opinion, to get and the rewards are sweeter. You know what I mean? 1s I was always 

 U5 

 13:00 

 aware. 

 U3 

 13:02 

 So, yeah, because I suppose I'd been done being in, you know, outside a lot in my life and in the closet. I was, you know, aware of the importance of the environment to me personally and what I've got from it. And also, you know, I wanted to, you know, as much as you can really reconcile business and, you know, 

 U4 

 13:21 

 sustainability or responsible business practice, um, you know, meet and, you know, if you are starting a brand that we have faith in, its in its DNA and be for the very reasons why it started was was just of common sense to me and what, what what we should do as a business. So it was always about things to things better, being disruptive and, you know, not be afraid to have difficult conversations, challenging what's gone before and with a view to the brand being as a platform and a voice piece for, um, you know, the environment, the ocean space and doing things better. So yeah, it was it was just I suppose there was in my ideas about the right way, the businesses should, should exist. And that was one of the reasons we started, you know, because 2003, that wasn't that wasn't a common conversation, not all. There was nothing going on in that space about transparency, sustainability, recycled fabrics. So, you know, it was this existed in a community that is, you know, often, you know, put in the same sentence 

 U5 

 14:34 

 as being in touch with nature. We we called careful about, um, and probably actually moving away from using the word sustainable. You know, I think it's, you know, there's the debate around is that good enough? Because sustainability is like maintain the status quo. And he looked around, your status quo is not good enough. So it should be, you know, positive impact to regenerative or like yeah as you know that be how can businesses actually positively affect the status quo, not just 

 U3 

 15:03 

 sustain sales because that's like, you know, that's not good enough. And, you know, so, um, you know, and for us is about doing things better than what I have done before. And that's always been the mindset of the brand. That and, you know, I'm pretty proud of it. You know it was my mindset 

 U4 

 15:19 

 starting and it's you know, it's still the same place it was 20 years ago in terms of the energy and the mindset and the people that work here. So and really great to have taken on the ideas and run with it and made it and made them what you see on the parts of the business right now. So yeah, it's it's exciting that, you know, things starting anything is really hard. Starting anything back then with a different way of doing a different business agenda, you know, is, is is very challenging and it's challenging for many ways. I mean, I think it's. People don't necessarily get straight away while you're doing it. So you constantly have to go and talk to your customers and community about education, understanding and helping me understand why this is a better way of doing stuff. You know, in organic cotton, recycled fabrics, whatever. You know, new 1s ones do. You have to really, you know, and even now you have to really kind of 2s have, you know, really kind of engage in conversations with your communities about, you know, and help, you know, help, help them understand why you're doing stuff. Also, for the point of view, you're not we don't say nothing. Got the answer. But this is what we think is the best way forward and why we're doing. And it's kind of an iterative and evolutionary process. But yeah, it's very hard starting. So starting to scratch. So starting from scratch when you're trying to, you know, address where you see other businesses are missing. And by the way, some of these brands back in 2003 were like huge, huge businesses, you know, you know, quotes on New York Stock Exchange or that sort of stuff. You know, big, big businesses and so, you know, you're kind of, you know, you're five people around a table and it's kind of like they're calling them out safely and, you know, not throwing stones and surly, but, you know, you want to kind of change industry and be a bit disruptive and, um, you know, say, hey, listen, what's going right now is it's not good enough. We could do better. And hopefully this is an example. But yeah, it was tough. I mean, you couldn't buy recycled fabrics as you can now in, in the 2000 yards, you know. So that's a lot of a lot of that's a lot of 

 U2 

 17:25 

 fabric even now when it's, you know, a small business even ten, 15 years ago, that's very there's a huge amount of product to commit to. So you have to kind. And that was very challenging economically. And we talked quite about the brand and the business. And 1s you know, I suppose the ideological beautiful side of what the brand is behind this. Like, you know, it's a parallel account and it's like margins and there's brands and those are salaries. So you have to kind of have financial sustainability as well to exist and survive and grow and then have a bigger impact hopefully, and a bigger voice as you go. Journey. So um, 

 U5 

 18:04 

 yeah. So the thing you know, that was definitely hard sort of question. So, you know, getting getting the fabrics and yeah, having the financial, you know, the financial challenges in the business being from margin point of view, buying point of view, I've always been I've always been tricky. Yeah. Know they were very tricky in the early years particularly. 

 U4 

 18:25 

 And he said, this is intolerable 

 U3 

 18:26 

 because you've got a kind of one hand, you know, you're in the industry and we're a business like everybody else. So we're not saying we're, you know why and why I'm perfect. We we we cause no threat to the planet, blah, blah, blah. You know, we we we we know we're not perfect, but, um, so you're not sort of saying we're over here and you're there and you're this and we're that, but you, you, you're hoping use the business example, um, as to how the industry, you know, can how you can change how it needs to change and be better. And ironically, it's actually quite you know, you've seen the film The Big C, um, around and near pre-production and stuff like that. There's, you know, there's there's a lot of chat now around actually, the fact that there's been way more inertia in the surf industry and community around adopting better 

 U4 

 19:21 

 fabrics and that sort of thing, because 

 U2 

 19:23 

 there's like an implied, um, view that because people are in the water surfing, they are already there, you know, they understand it. But then there's a sort of a massive lag, I think, from the industry. So, yeah, I don't know. Did they take us seriously? Yeah. I mean, they were pretty annoyed a couple of people definitely. You know, there was quite, you know, socially engaged people, you know, people quite we probably annoyed. So you know, I'd be annoyed having conversations, which is a good thing. You know, it's, you know, you need to be. 

 U5 

 19:56 

 Not provocative, but. Oh, yeah. Suppose you need to start. Yeah. Start conversations, start fires. And, you know, these conversations are by nature uncomfortable. You know, they're not they're not like everyone can get together and it's like, oh yeah, we agree there's going to be it could be sort of debate, I guess that, you know, that's happening a bit now in the industry. And that's a good thing. Yeah. I think the the urgency around making some decisions like say, you know, switching away from the airplane is I don't understand it. I don't understand why you wouldn't switch twice. And personally, 1s you know, it's, it's, you know, functionally as good an ambassador for for 

 U4 

 20:41 

 years in every single kind of way 1s and I don't 1s yeah. I guess, you know, the switch, the switch away from the AP would be. Yeah, I'd love to see a bit more urgency, energy around that would be good. And, you know, it just feels like the getting started. 

 U3 

 21:00 

 And that's exhausting and exciting at the same time because you constantly work stuff out, be better. But it's also exciting because you know, you're you're you know, you are the cutting edge of the front, the front of it all. Um, but with that kind of committed 

 U4 

 21:16 

 tune off, I suppose, comes 1s a kind of ongoing, you know, sort of drive to, to, to, to, to do better. And, and it's not just. Like 3 or 4 years ago. Are we going to be sustainable? Let's just put that on staff and put it in the same bit as tenable. And then it's like, that's kind of that's kind of greenwashing because they do actually really mean it in your essence as a business that your core of what you do. Do you believe in that? And so how do you then move? How do you so then it's like we, you know, we don't have regenerative business products. We don't have we're not positive impact. But could it be identified as time? Can you be done more than you know. Yes, I'd say know. And I can't tell you what that is. Now, all I know is, is that we can talk about work. And if you kind of have that drive and that kind of division, that belief, and, you know, that kind of, you know, that sort of we'll see the bad in the morning and something that will hopefully we'll get to and opportunities come up for our stepping stones in their journey. And it's not something you can just go, well do it tomorrow. You know, business that's the size we are now. And you have to kind of you have to really work at it in every single area. So yeah, because I'm a bit of a I suppose I'm a fixer, you know, I like to fix things, you know, in my life. And so I think with the brand, the Rover, you know, the brand to me, you know, this is like 20 years ago, you know, you know, everyone's purpose now this, that and the other 20 years ago, we set out with a view to be a better business, had a strong purpose, can actually see 1s made better product all the rest of that because I think, you know, that's kind of progress. That's the evolution. If you are better than you were yesterday. 1s And that could exist on a very small level, right. You know, as a team, you know, we got in the water, we're, you know, reinvented by surfer sea swim whatever or where the big, you know, Red sea wetsuits we have. Right. A top business as a whole, kind of, you know, if we can do that, um, you know, that that that that's how, you know, even leaving the world in a better place is a good for me. It's a very good human. It seems like a sensible human trait, anyway. And then you think about it in terms of the, you know, the climate crisis and the state of the planet. That's become evident in the last 30 for a while, but particularly over the last, like maybe 4 to 5 years. And every day in the news about it, it's even more 

 U3 

 23:51 

 relevant. And why wouldn't you do that? 

 U1 

 23:56 

 You know, the beauty and curse of sustainability is that it means different things to different people. Take Finisterre as an example. The brand is cautious in using the word sustainability in its communication. For them, the word sustain means to maintain, and maintaining the status quo simply isn't good enough right now. But then enter a giant like Billabong, a massive conglomerate with an annual revenue of approximately $1.3 billion and operations in over 100 countries. Billabong definition of sustainability looks completely different for them. Sustainability means incremental changes to existing processes and products, changes that have the greatest impact without radically disrupting business operations and customer expectations. We all know that change requires time, and it requires flexibility and adaptability, which legacy brands like Billabong have to balance with their corporate responsibilities. As such, their approach to sustainability is slower paced and nuanced. It's more strategic and comes in the form of 769,595 Brazilian trees. Billabong is essentially rethinking the entire lifecycle of a product from the ground up it. Its investment in its own rubber tree plantation in Guatemala represents a crucial shift away from a linear model of production and consumption. The plantation also serves as the birthplace of the brand's proprietary blend of natural rubber. It's a groundbreaking step in the right direction, setting new standards for the brand's eco friendly wetsuit production. Organic green isn't just Billabong lightest and most flexible natural rubber to date, but also illustrates what's possible when the global brand decides to lead with actions rather than words. As we engage with Simon Charlesworth, the GM of Billabong Europe, we'll explore the intricacies of the brand's meaningful shift from linear to circular production. It's a narrative that underscores the unique challenges and opportunities that come with size and scale, where smaller brands might pivot quickly, larger companies undertake a more measured approach, yet their impact can ripple through the industry and beyond. Simon will guide us through the journey of transitioning from traditional to sustainable practices on a grand scale, revealing the complexities, triumphs and ongoing commitment required to bring real, lasting change to a heritage brand like Billabong. 

 U3 

 26:12 

 Maybe I'll just back up just a bit and just talk about the culture of brands and the culture of what is the responsibility of the surf brand, both today and has been for history. I mean, we, you know, we play in the ocean every day, and that's the thing that we want to respect and protect the most, both the ocean and the planet. Yes, they come together. So if I back things up, you know, Billabong was founded in 1973, obviously spent some time finding its way, its homeland being in Australia. And if I fast forward maybe to 2007, that's the first time that Billabong overtly started communicating about what we know today as sustainability and boardshorts. That was the, you know, premier category of the brand was the first step into making those out of. Recycle plastic water bottles as we known today. P e t. So that's the stepping stone. It started in 2007. Then you like a few milestones along the way liners that we made wetsuits. So the liner, when we describe it internally as the sort of fabric part that sits on the external of the neoprene rubber and sits on the interior. And over the years back as far as 2009, we were using recycled yarns to make those lines. 

 U4 

 27:33 

 So, you know, the piece just really wanted to illustrate is like, it's not like yesterday or last year, you know, Billabong made this commitment, oh, are we going to be sustainable? You know, it goes hand in hand with the responsibility that we have as a surf brand like I talked to. But then, you know, there's a history of getting there. And more recently and has been a topic that has been discussed internally and across the wetsuit industry, is how we can improve the sustainable production of wetsuits. And obviously Eulex has been on the market for a good few years now, 

 U2 

 28:10 

 adopted by some brands, and we adopted it and experimented with it. The bit that we talked about a lot was, is like, consumers shouldn't have to pay a premium for sustainability. And they're saying that we've been really trying to like, work around as to how we could bring a more compelling price proposition to wetsuits to the mainstream consumer. And Scott Boot, who's our global director of wetsuits. My God, he's been in the industry for 30 years. And every time I talk about wetsuits to him, he puts me to shame. He's an incredible guy, but he really set about this task of trying to bring what, what is natural rubber to the marketplace and through some sourcing partners, has managed to manage to secure exclusive access to a forest, a certified forest in Guatemala that we are harvesting natural rubber from. In Guatemala, you're sourcing a raw ingredient, which is a liquid state because it comes and then it is taken to. 1s Asia responsibly, and then it is processed, which essentially makes it into sheets. So it makes into blocks first and then it's cut into sheets 

 U4 

 29:28 

 before they're cut to patterns. They're liners are adhered to the X, some external and internal of what will eventually be the wet suit. 

 U5 

 29:36 

 And then they're gluten stitched. And we're gradually trying to say, well, we have phased it in to certain styles of our wetsuits. I'd say we're at about like if we if we stand here today. So our work on so many seasons is sometimes the challenge is just to get a grasp for where we are. So we're getting near the end of 23 as we get into the beginning of 

 U4 

 29:58 

 24. Um, no, sorry. We've just launched natural rubber in one of our styles of wetsuits. And as we get into the back half of 24, so middle of the year next year, that's when we'll get to about 80% of the line, 70 to 80% of the line being in natural rubber. And we complement that with a number of sustainability initiatives around it. The liners that I talked about earlier and we've evolved the the sourcing of those, but it also is the glues that we use, the the hangers that the products are sent to partners on. They're made of recycled plastic waste from the ocean. Um, wetsuits used to be shipped from the parent sort of global manufacturer of wetsuits, shako in plastic bags. They now come in thin paper bags. So we've looked at the complete process. But the the biggest breakthrough innovation has been this, this natural rubber sourcing that we for our brands that we've managed to unlock through this plantation in Guatemala. And it's fully traceable, fully endorsed by the US Farmers Association. And from a performance point of view, 

 U5 

 31:16 

 I would be amazed. I would be taken aback as a surfer, as a surface who's used the wetsuits. If somebody came to me one day and said, this is a natural rubber wetsuit because I, I literally cannot tell the difference from a thermoregulation, warmth properties point of view or from a flexibility point of view. And they're probably the two main things that get discussed as surfers in terms of a need from our wetsuits. So we're we're super stoked. We want to get the messaging in the right way. We don't want to. 1s We 

 U4 

 31:52 

 don't want like bang our chests and shout from the rooftops, we're happy to share the story. Um, but it's all part of a drive. And we have to sort of saying internally it's like, make the best wetsuits be good to the ocean. And we're really trying to fulfill that promise through this initiative. 2s Most, most, if not all, the brands that are in our industry have 

 U2 

 32:18 

 have partners who are factories, and most people should know that wetsuits generally come from one significant partner globally. Shaker. The relationship that you establish with those factories partners, describe them as you will is fundamental to what you're able to achieve for the consumer. So you're constantly having a discussion seasonally 1s for what is the appropriate timeline on where your business is. And even in the long term, 

 U4 

 32:50 

 there wouldn't have been a pivotal 

 U2 

 32:52 

 moment where we said where there would have been a pivotal moment where we made the decision to scale it as greatly as I've talked about that we're going to do in the back half of 24, but there wouldn't have been a pivotal moment when 1s we 

 U4 

 33:07 

 decided that we were going to do it. There would have been a continuous meeting, dialogue discussion with that partner to say, hey. 1s This is something that excites us. We really want to go after this as a brand. Surfers deserve this. The planet, the ocean deserves this and it would have been an evolution of conversations, meetings, introduction through this sourcing, to get to have the location in Guatemala identified and then doing the relevant checks to make sure that, you know, we can stand by the product in terms of its 

 U5 

 33:40 

 performance and then stand by the product in terms of ethical sourcing. So I'd love to say it was like one day and I could recall the day and say, oh, we all sat down as this day and I'll remember it forever. It just it just doesn't quite work like that in terms of 1s evolution, I'd say. And I'd love to flip the switch some days on, like taking us to this place. And there's all kinds of reasons why it can't be done on this instantaneous. You know, if you think about, you know, we have a 90 day window for shipping from factory through to market. That's three months. And then you've got to add on the period before that, which is design, creation, briefing, prototyping. The whole like the whole journey start to finish is probably 12 months from an idea through to it reaching consumer. So. 

 U2 

 34:35 

 You know, even it feels like we've made some, really. 2s We have made some really strong decisions, some strong commitments to get natural rubber as quickly as we can into our product, and particularly at the scale that we that we have been. I think most of the instant expectations of brands generally comes from a lack of deeper knowledge to the process. And like hopefully I elaborated enough on the processes, quite protracted. It's quite drawn out. And it's obviously also that journey. And I didn't talk about it. You know, it is a linear journey from design through to the consumer piece. There's also a number of politics that will come along the way there. That can be anything from pricing to anniversary to any of those things that can get in the way and all of those things. 

 U4 

 35:25 

 Are things that are not apparent in the mind of somebody who may choose to 

 U2 

 35:32 

 bash a brand or accuse a brand of not moving fast enough to achieve what they want most, if not all, of the brands that I've had the pleasure of working with over my career have incredible people who have incredible visions. It's just not always the case that those visions can be realized at the pace that perhaps a can a consumer might want them to. So. So there's the there's the lack of insider knowledge almost into these bigger companies. And then there's patience that I think these people need to have some appreciation and adoption of. But then if I look at it totally on the other side, if you don't get some brand bashers, if you don't get some activists as they are perhaps more commonly known, 1s how how 

 U4 

 36:22 

 do you actually even get the pressure to change? Know, even though I talk about companies having these great minds, these great visionaries, these people are really proactive and want to embrace what is right. And generally they're the product designers are in the companies. 

 U5 

 36:39 

 If you 

 U2 

 36:40 

 don't have certain pressure groups, certain legislation, certain voices. 

 U4 

 36:46 

 But I think it just needs to be done in the right way. And, you know, 

 U2 

 36:52 

 I don't like 

 U4 

 36:53 

 things being called out individually. I'm really happy to take feedback, thoughts, ideas. Anyone in the Billabong brand is to make things better, but hopefully. And even just sharing this with the audience that I hear, just a bit of empathy to the fact that things do unfortunately take time. And that's not unique to the surf industry. 1s The surf industry, I would say, is guilty of not having enough innovation. As somebody that's worked in companies that does have innovation and has seen great experimentation with fabrics, with modern day techniques. The surf industry could do with, 1s you know, an injection of freshness into thoughts of how we could how we could rework the board. Sure. You know, there's some cool progressive things happen in surfboards, and it's easy for me to talk about that because I love surfboards. But there's definitely some areas of innovation that I think this industry would benefit from seeing. That would then perhaps lessen the perception or the opportunity for the brands to be not doing things quickly enough. Because for a number of people aboard from ten years ago possibly looks like a boardshorts from today 1s t shirts. They're a they're a fundamental commodity. They they have to be made okay. The innovation there is not visible. But in terms of ink printing techniques, the inks that have been used, the raw fabrication in terms of organic, all those things have been invested and brought to the fore over the years. They're just not are 

 U2 

 38:40 

 they're not 

 U4 

 38:41 

 easily recognizable by the consumer because. You know, we all know a t shirt like I described as a commodity. It would be a hard thing to innovate and take to a totally different place, 

 U2 

 38:53 

 but as a pastime or sport, depending on who you are and how you describe surfing. I still think to surf longer, to surf better, to to enjoy more. There's there's innovation opportunities within the industry for sure that haven't been realized. And that's why I think sometimes the industry can be accused of being a bit slow for the company. It has to be 

 U3 

 39:21 

 twofold. It has to be consumer relevant and up to the performance standard, like I talked about earlier. And then it has to be affordable in the mind of the consumer. Against the backdrop of what the perception of Billabong is and what consumers are prepared to pay for Billabong. So if we bought natural rubber wetsuits 

 U4 

 39:41 

 out at €1,000, it's just not 

 U2 

 39:45 

 it's not it's not common business sense. So but when we got it to a point through sourcing it the scale through this partner in Guatemala, 

 U4 

 39:58 

 and obviously part of the decision to make it more part of the decision to take it to a broader offering in the range is twofold. One, it means that we can. We can create scale for the consumer, but we can also create scale in the pricing and the sourcing. So it makes it more affordable for the consumer. So in terms of like the process for that decision, hopefully as I explain it there, it just becomes a no brainer because you know, we've got the brand ambition, you've got the pricing formula and you've got the consumer appetite. So if we ignored all of those things in the decision making process, then we'd be pretty foolish. I think we try and also balance the messaging as well, and are not trying to just be from the top of the mountain, because also we know we're not perfect, and I really believe in the philosophy and a number of people do across the brand that any progress is good progress. And I've sat in a number of sustainability meetings across brand with external people, and the whole 2s greenwashing accusation is actually quite sad because I hear that it's actually making brands scared to even embark on trying to do things better, because they're becoming now concerned that they're just going to get held up and accused of greenwashing, 1s which is a really there's just like a really weird dynamic to be occurring. 

 U2 

 41:30 

 Um, 

 U4 

 41:31 

 all I can say is, I hope 1s and I know you spoke to Tom Kenny from Finisterre, and I think that's an incredible example of a brand, has the idea of sustainability at the roots of the company, at the roots of the people and the roots of everything that they try and do to just make sure that. 

 U2 

 41:51 

 The product is fit for purpose, is made in the right way, and has a long life cycle to it. So. So where we could go in the future, one of the big things would be working in parallel is there's still this issue that 

 U1 

 42:05 

 and I don't even want to try and put a number on it, but there's a hell of a lot of old wetsuits out there are in 

 U4 

 42:13 

 thrift stores, in 1s people's garages and all over the place, and 

 U2 

 42:19 

 that is a valuable raw material, actually, with the innovation that you've seen. And in parallel to bringing natural rubber to the marketplace, we want to really want to explore how we can 

 U4 

 42:32 

 reuse the old neoprene and put it back into new wetsuits and maybe for for the audience, actually, also on a point of clarity, because we talked about natural rubber a lot today. And so people understand a natural rubber wetsuit cannot be 100% natural rubber. You just don't get the performance that you require. So 

 U2 

 42:52 

 there is 85% natural rubber in the neoprene as it's known. And then there's a 15%. It's manmade, but it's manmade with recycled components. And that recycled bit is what we can use old, old neoprene for this 15% ingredient, which is why we want to actively pursue that. So we're trying to complete the the ideal circular flow of, you know, making wetsuits into wetsuits again. 4s In our exploration of sustainability within the action sports industry, we've came across varied landscapes and ideologies. We've seen the grassroots innovation of finished air and witnessed the deliberate evolution of a giant like Billabong. Each story has its own unique take on what sustainability means in today's fast paced, ever evolving world. Now, as our search continues, we pivot to a voice that has been instrumental in shaping the environmental consciousness of this industry. Adam Hall is a name synonymous with the environmental policies of some of our industry's biggest brands. In a world where the term sustainability often gets tossed around like a beach ball at a summer festival. Adam's approach stands out for its authenticity, and Nobbs, with a career spanning continents, advising and steering some of the biggest names in the action sports arena. Adam has seen the good, the bad and, of course, the greenwash. But Adam isn't just a strategist, he's a doer. His journey hasn't been confined to boardrooms or theoretical frameworks. For the past eight years, Adam has been the driving force behind the UK's bid for a world surfing reserve, a testament to his dedication to not just talk about sustainability, but to live it, breathe it and mold it into reality. But really, where does Adam's philosophy fit into the modern industry landscape? Can the lofty ideals of sustainability truly co-exist with the hard nosed realities of capitalism, or thus the pursuit of green turn into a veil for deeper shades of gray? Adam has grappled with these questions, seeking answers not in rhetoric but in action. As we hear from Adam, we're learning from a man who's put his theories to the test and who's planted his feet firmly in the sand of sustainable action. In his stories, we'll find the nuances of an industry at a crossroads, the challenges of aligning profit with purpose, and the relentless pursuit of change. That's more than just a label or a marketing play. 3s The sustainability bar is incredibly low at the moment. You know, you've got a lot of organizations from and so from a conservation perspective and from an industry perspective, from an industry perspective with, we're trying to do less bad. And that's a really low bar. That's an incredibly low bar. When you've got organisations that are saying, oh, it's it's 

 U4 

 45:48 

 got it's got organic content, you know, or it's got recycled plastics or microfibers in it and that's it's 20%. And actually the rest of, of, of the impact of that business or that the process that that product has gone through is still doing untold damage. It's such a low bar. And when we're massively celebrating some of these achievements, I mean, there's some hilarious stuff coming out at the moment where I don't know, you know, suddenly the talk about industry in general, like mainstream restaurants, fast food restaurants, hey, we're using reusable 

 U3 

 46:30 

 cups 

 U2 

 46:32 

 and we're washing them. It's like, okay, you know, we're really celebrating these things. So and it's like, hey, sustainability is really progressing. And it's but that bar is incredibly low where we're celebrating these incremental changes on how we're doing less damage, you know, when when we're nowhere near beginning that conversation where we are beginning that conversation, but getting somewhere where we're actually repairing and restoring and looking after and actually making our planet better, we're still at that stage where we're celebrating, doing less damage. That's incredibly low. And then from a conservation point of view, and I'm not knocking conservation orgs or charities because this is this is where we're at. This is what we have to deal with. But again, we're celebrating not fucking somewhere up and that's an incredibly it's protected. I spent 1s a good seven years in my own time trying to set up the North Devon World Surfing Reserve and, and 

 U5 

 47:36 

 just to get to a stage of a level of protection. That's insane. And we're not talking about I mean, there are organizations that are regenerating and they are they're they're planting up areas. They're cleaning up watercourses. You know, they're creating habitats. So that's not that's not totally fair to say that we're not doing it, but we're still at a stage where, you know, we haven't protected 30% of the ocean, just protected it, not even regenerate it. So I think, yeah, it's we got a long way to go from industry and conservation, but, you know. That's the times we're in. And I think the counter to both of those arguments is we should we should celebrate every achievement because we've got to we've got to be encouraging every action. We've got to be encouraging everybody to do whatever they can. So I'm always conscious that there's a term greenwashing, which we'll talk about later, but there's green hushing as well. And that's where organisations are too scared to talk about what they're doing because they're they're worried about being knocked back and think that's that's also quite dangerous. You know, we should we should be encouraging organisations and businesses to, to do better. And if we do knock them for these little incremental gains, then maybe they won't lead on to the big positive stuff that we need to do. Yeah. So yeah, I think the benchmarks still pretty low. You know, I've I've worked in industry and I've, I've, I've been pushing rocks uphill for, for for over a decade to try and achieve some of those things. And when you do get a breakthrough, sometimes you're like, yes, you know, because it to a certain extent it is an achievement. But you can't, um, clever account the environment. You can't clever account the, the, the, the planet, you know. So although it is hard work to achieve that 20%, it is, you know, you've gone through that and you feel like I was really did it and managed to get that agreement. I managed to change the structure of our organisation to achieve this. That's great. But actually the reality of what that's achieving out on the planet, you know, you you can't suddenly claim that's that's more than it is. So yeah, it's I do get it. But yeah, we've got to stop patting ourselves on the back and actually just, just knuckle down, 

 U2 

 49:55 

 you know, because there's so many, um, there's so many other sectors to the industry that we, you just wouldn't dream of, of claiming some of these things, you know, um, I don't know, imagine if you did that in the marketing department. And it was there was like, yes, we've got 20% more likes or readers of the blog or, or, you know, market share in this, this sector. Everyone would just laugh you out. There's a really dangerous concept which is shifting baseline syndrome, and I think this is one of the most dangerous things on the planet is is and the shifting baseline syndrome is where let me think of a good example. My my kids are never going to know a beach without plastic on it. Um, and they, they see that as, as, as the baseline. You know, that was different for me. That was different from my parents. And I think the the worry here is, is when you talk about sustainability, you're going to sustain that baseline of, of water that whatever that was that you met. Um, so I do think, yeah, there's a point in there that sustainability isn't good enough. You know, actually, you've got greenwashing laws that say you can't mention sustainable because it's such a generic term. It's not a specific term. Um, yeah. And I think there's a there's a really clear point there that we don't want to sustain where we're at. You know, we're at a stage that we are with. We're doing so much damage and we're doing so much, was giving so much disregard to the natural environment that actually, if we sustain this, we'd be in a whole world of trouble. And yeah, I think there's a valid point there. And I do think in general terms. 1s Sustainability has had a bit of a boom recently. You? I forget why I read it, but I think it's. It's the third most advertised job title in the in the UK at least. I'm. Don't quote me on that. Might be wrong, but I did hear it somewhere and and and you're I'm you're looking at some of these job descriptions and what these organisations want to do. And they simply want to tick boxes. You know, they want to they want to keep up with the Joneses. They want to make sure they're compliant. They want to make sure that they're up with the regulations. They want to make sure they've got a couple of web pages where they put on. Sustainability is at the heart of what we do, and copy and paste that to every single website you've ever seen. Um, and, and it's it, it's not pushing the bar forward, you know, it's 

 U5 

 52:30 

 it's it's. 1s It is maintaining that status quo where you just do what you have to do. Whereas sustainability, what we need is we need these organizations that will send a kite up in the sky, nice and high on a subject that they can, they can influence the most. So so a subject they have the biggest impact on within sustainability. Because there's 

 U2 

 52:54 

 so many subjects within sustainability, they need to pick that subject. They need to match that with a subject that's that's that's relevant to their stakeholders. So you get longevity in that and then send that kite up in the sky. Break boundaries, break new ground, do something amazing. And actually the rest of industry can can do the thing that's most relevant to them 

 U5 

 53:18 

 or most relevant to them, to to their stakeholders. And then suddenly we've got all these kites in the sky that everybody can look at. We have an open source and everybody shares their ideas. And what you end up doing is, is, is you lift the sustainability bar much higher, rather than this nudge tactic of keeping up with the Joneses and keeping legislation break new ground. You know, be confident on these, these, these really bold sustainability initiatives. And I mean, there's some classic examples, you know, with, with Eulex and, and you know, how Tom's adopted Eulex and, and how the industry just put that out there as an open source. Look, here we go. Here's a solution. Let's all just get behind it, you know. And that's one of those kites that went up in the sky. Just have 80% carbon reductions. You know that that's a leap forward. You know, I'm actually bringing out a board show with 20% recycled content. It's everyone's doing it, you know, it's. 

 U2 

 54:20 

 There's a lot of organizations that are using sustainability as a marketing ploy, or attacked or keeping up with the Joneses. And what I think is really unfair is it's up to me. Minu the customers, the surf is on the beach to try and figure out if that's what they're doing. Right. Because there are some there are some organizations out there that are genuinely really trying to push and try and, and, and actually they are out there and they are pushing the boundaries and they're, they're chucking those kites up in the sky of these initiatives. And actually, I just think it's entirely unfair that we have to pick through this. And it's not quite greenwashing because that's, that's that's now a legal term. But it's it's this kind of green fluff that you have to kind of way through. And then what's really disappointing is, is, is, is your kind of it supporting bad behavior because they're getting away with it and then you've got to get through them to get to the genuine 

 U3 

 55:24 

 organizations that are trying to do something. I'm also a trustee for Protect Our Winter. And we, we, we work hard to get out the concept that there's imperfect advocacy. And, you know, if you wait for 100% perfect, 1s what they're saying perfect is the enemy of the good. Actually nobody's perfect. You know, everything has an impact. Everything you buy has an impact. Everything you do has an impact. Even if you go and live in a cave, you're going to have impact. Um, but actually, as long as these are genuine efforts to to progress that story and progress sustainability forwards rather than those incremental changes which we spoke about earlier, I think that's that's that's a positive thing. But it is it is tough for the for for the customer to to understand what is a genuine effort and what isn't. And my, my, my suggestion to to everybody in any position, whatever decision you've got in front of you, whether that's in the professional scenario, whether you're shopping, whether you're, I don't know, deciding where to go on holiday is just pause, just have that pause and owe it to the planet, that pause and actually just consider that choice and consider that choice and try and make the best decision you can in that scenario. Which isn't easy because you do have this kind of haze of greenness, which is you've got to kind of navigate. And that's one of the thing that we did actually call for a protector. Winters is, is a is a standardization of of certification and, and product footprints. And that is beginning to happen. There's the, 1s uh, the environmental footprint of products. There's a legislation coming out that you actually have to have that on your product. So there's there is that standardization. And I think the European Union is beginning to clear up this massive certification because they're confusing on their own. You know, you've got this I don't know the, the the so and so green tick. And then you've got a really high standard like blue sign for example, which is which is the premier standard. And actually customers don't understand that they don't have the time to look at it and go, that one's got a green tick, that one's got a blue tick. And actually the blue tick is insane. Green tick is probably made up by the brands and just said, this is our green range, you know. And 

 U2 

 57:55 

 and that's that's really difficult. So I mean there is. 

 U5 

 57:59 

 You know, everyone. Everyone gets a bit spooked by legislation and and and and increased laws. 

 U2 

 58:06 

 But actually, you know, sustainability is 

 U3 

 58:08 

 almost become the Wild West, you know. It definitely has around carbon offsets that just needs to be stopped because think it's like 7% are actually effective, which is insane. They're just a complete waste of money. But actually around the standards, you know, beginning to clean them up and make them understandable and not having this plethora of 

 U5 

 58:31 

 all these different green ticks that don't really mean anything. And it's, you know, there's a body of work to be done there just to just to kind of get through that and make it easier for, for people making these decisions. Um, because it's not fair. It's and it's not fair that an industry that relies on customers isn't being fair to their very customers. Um, you know, and that's, you know, I think we're going to talk about a bit later, but that's that is the basis of the greenwashing laws, which is, which have come out is you you have to be really clear, 

 U2 

 59:06 

 honest, transparent, and just just no fluff around these claims that you're making because it's just it's just not fair on the customer. It's tough for industry not to be able to see the results of their sustainability work is difficult because it's not particularly hard to grasp grab hold of it. It's not tangible, you know? And let's be honest, businesses are geared around spreadsheets. They're geared around profit and loss. They're hardwired with that. So actually, you know, it's very difficult to put metrics around sustainability and always try to do that. I tried to to suggest that sustainability should. Wash its own face. Sustainability is intrinsically linked with operational efficiency. Operational efficiency saves you money, right? So I always try to to to make sustainability wash its own face. And then all those intangible benefits, the real stuff, you know, 

 U5 

 60:03 

 um, and you know, actual benefits to the environment, the fact that customers really resonated with it, they were all just bonuses. Um, but it's yeah, it's tough. And I think that's, that's an issue for sustainability subjects as a whole. Um, you know, outside of industry, you know, when when you're looking at sea level rise, it's so incremental that nobody really knows. Is it until something drastic happens, you know, with, with, with, with snow seasons changing and and and and this erratic snowfall and and freeze and melt and freeze and melt. Um, 1s that's it's kind of gradual until a glacier collapses. So, so all of these things, it it's you don't get that instant gratification which, which, which 2s our generation is hardwired to have, you know, it's oh, I didn't get a light or you know, you need. Yeah. You need that. And that's, that's, that's the sign of the times. But you know what I think? I think we are maturing and, and and we're beginning to realize that we've got 

 U2 

 61:13 

 this wider consciousness, you know, we've got this more global thinking, you know, and, and although it's it's really intangible, people are beginning to understand that we, we, we have an impact. You know, I mean, there's one subject which is, which is, which is very and it's the reason it's been adopted so much. And there's one subject which is very visual, very tangible as plastics, you know, climate change is so difficult because you don't. 2s It. Even the word climate change actually sounds quite nice, doesn't it? 

 U3 

 61:47 

 You know, and it change just gives you that idea. It's going to we're going to gradually fall into it and it's going to climb. It's kind of nice because you always associate with a with it's a nice climate. It's a warm climate, you know, and you can't see the changes. You know, that's beginning to change now because we're having these major impacts. But. 1s We got lulled into this situation. It's far off and and actually it's a little bit warmer than last year and you can't grab hold of it. Whereas plastics, you can see it, you know, and and actually, you know, from, from one of the scale, if you get something that comes in a, in a ton of plastic, you're a bit like this horrible 

 U2 

 62:26 

 stuff that's full of nasty chemicals. And actually it's just filled up my being and, you know, and can't recycle it. What do I do with it? You know, it becomes this stressful situation. And then and then for us, you know, you go down the beach and you step over a tide line of plastic. You see 

 U5 

 62:43 

 it. It's it's there. It's visual. You can grab hold of it, you can understand it. So yeah, get that, you know, with certain subjects, if it's not, if it's not there and in your face it can be difficult to grasp. And I think that's, you know, bringing that back to business, you know, if you don't have those, those metrics or tangible elements. It's difficult to sit in a boardroom with somebody that's that's spurting out sales achievements and, and, and returns on investments and then and then you turn around and go, you know what? We did really good. 2s It's difficult to be in that environment and actually justify it. But, you know, I've always I've always strived to find those metrics where they where you can. 2s Yeah, but it is tough. It is tough and it's difficult because organizations are businesses are just hard wired around the bottom line and, and trying to to unwind them from that and actually realize that we should be working to a triple bottom line. Um, you know, people and planet in there with that, that regular bottom line, the biggest threat to that the surfing industry is, is just being left behind. And and we've known this for years. The outdoor industry is an exemplar. You know, they they are so far ahead. And even some of the brands that you wouldn't think are particularly sustainable. They are leagues ahead of 

 U2 

 64:11 

 some of the surf brands. And, and and there's a big threat of being left behind and think you're totally right. It's it's it there's there's a there's a critical point here and that is wetsuits. But that's, that is part of a wider issue that surfing is is needs to pick up. It's pick up its feet a little bit and pull it socks up. 2s Ace wetsuits, you know, and this is where surfing is going to have egg on its face. And if they don't react to it and this is around, you know, neoprene, you know, being being produced or chlorine, the raw material for neoprene being produced in the Denker factory in Louisiana. Which, as most people know, is a highly carcinogenic factory oozing out nastiness and and just driving up cancer rates in that area. But I think that's it. It points to a wider issue that there isn't this consideration that's quite dramatic, you know, but there isn't this broader consideration across the board for for materials as a whole. You know, the outdoor industry. Would not have stood for that. They would have. They wouldn't. They wouldn't even got to this stage. There wouldn't be a film made about it. You know, in the outdoor industry is considering like so many material choices and, and sustainability efforts. So yeah, I think I think, you know, the surfing industry is, is unless it reacts in a good way. And again, it comes to the green machine with the limestone, you know, actually just going oh it's limestone. 

 U5 

 65:46 

 It's, it is 

 U2 

 65:48 

 sustainable. Well it's, 

 U4 

 65:49 

 it's again it's, it's, it's that nudge mentality and it's that moving the ships on the moving the deckchairs on the Titanic. It, it it that's not going to wash. You know, you've got to you've got to be bold. You've got to be you know, you've got to be from an ocean a you know, it's the nature of surfing. You know, you only notice the guys that are taking off on the biggest wave or that the heaviest wave and and pushing the boundaries of surfing. Why don't we do that in our industry? You know, I don't know why we lose that culture, but yeah, I think the biggest threat to to the surfing industry is. Is being left behind, you know. And it was so intertwined with, with the outdoor industry that it's just going to become more and more apparent as an industry. We've gone through innovation. You know, we've there's as an industry has has gone through the.com boom boom. It's changed. We had to figure out we did that. You know wetsuits. You know at one point a long time ago I don't even know what year it was. I think it's around 50 maybe I don't know. No no. Wouldn't be that early. But O'Neill inventing Jack O'Neill and Vietnam wetsuits. Um, yeah. Um, you know, the surfboard technology that's that's changed, that's revolutionized, you know, so we know how to do this. We we just we just got to apply that mental capacity that we do in everything else just to kind of go, all right, let's not just do let's not just say this is a marketing campaign around a board shorts. And next to that, we'll do a sustainability campaign. You know, that. That's that's bullshit. Um, actually treat it as this, this, this real opportunity for innovation to 

 U3 

 67:31 

 change, to be, 

 U2 

 67:33 

 um, to be market leaders, to be, to really strive for, for, you know, we know it. The industry has lost so much market space because they haven't innovated. You know, they lost the shoe market. They completely lost the shoe market. Just took it from them. Right. And the surf industry passively sat there and just let that happen. Right. And that that can happen across the board. But actually if you become this industry, this innovator like the outdoor industry, right. And and just be an outlier around sustainability and doing things the right way, you'll get that market back. You know. And I know that's an for some people that the real deep greens listening to that they'll think, oh this is that's an oxymoron for for sustainability because it's, it's shifting more products. And yeah you're right it is. But. Industry is always going to be there. It can just be just a whole lot better. Yeah, and think, Saffron's just got to do that. Surfing has to has to realize what it's got. You've got this, this, this, this unbreakable bond with the natural environment. You know, there is another point I want to bring up which I don't think we've covered is, is is where the fuck are the brands around surf conservation. Where are you? 

 U1 

 69:02 

 We're almost at the end of our expedition through the land of sustainability. But before we get off this journey, we have one more stop, a stop. That brings us to Gabe Davis, a former pro surfer turned environmentalist. Frontline environmental advocacy at Patagonia. Gabe's unique blend of experience as a professional athlete, and a thoughtful corridors of conservation equipment with a profound understanding of the topic at hand. In our conversation, we explored a nuanced and often paradoxical culture of sustainability that permeates the action sports industry. It's a culture rich in ambition yet entangled in complexities and contradictions. Gabe invites us to confront some hard realities, challenging us to peel back the layers of what we've come to accept as sustainable practices. Through his eyes, we examine how the pursuit of eco friendliness can sometimes veer into the. Realms of elitism and preaching is creating a division that alienates rather than unites. Gay brings into focus the myths that linger, like the acclaimed limestone wetsuits, prompting us to question the realities of greenwashing and the authenticity of the sustainable labels we encounter. Gabe also unravels the complex, sometimes uncomfortable but always crucial conversation about the culture of sustainability and action sports. It's a discussion about redefining our relationship with the environment and rethinking how we can foster a more sustainable future as a community of explorers and athletes. 

 U2 

 70:30 

 I think quite interesting when you talk to people that you work for Patagonia, they probably recognize the little P6 logo, the logos on the t shirts and the jackets, and you'd see it through towns and airports now, where a decade ago it would have been quite a sort of niche club, maybe that would have known about Patagonia. When you are in the business, the amount of work they are doing is just phenomenal. And I'm not saying everything is perfect and 1s there's no impact on the planet. Without a doubt, it's a for profit company and it has an impact. And they are on a never ending cycle of improving their products, their policies, their inclusion. Like everyone's got to come with us on the journey. You don't want it to be an exclusive club in any way. But but there are layers upon layers of stories and the layers upon layers of prose that goes into their product, hitting their sort of first serve stores. It's just phenomenal. It's honestly, it's phenomenal, unless super transparent about everything. So whatever jacket or shirt or wetsuit you're wearing, you can like backtrack the whole history of that product. And it's all on the website. There's just layers and layers so you can know which what it's made of, what exactly what goes into it, what is recycled, what is and what is organic, what is regenerative organic, and who makes it where it's made? Is it Fair trade certified? Is it repairability? Like da da da da da da. And it's like all those layers. It's like an onion. Like you think it's just a t shirt, but it's everything about. It's just the most simple product. But it's got a lifetime warranty. It's fair trade certified. It's like half regenerative or recycle content. It's like the simple t shirt is like a phenomenal product story. And even when you're talking about like the simplest thing, like a t shirt, that's when you're probably like rolling your eyes at the rest of the surf industry or the fashion industry or the outdoor industry going like, oh my God, it's so possible to make positive change, to make positive changes to your business and to the like. Surfers in the world, 1s like all of all of the technology, all the answers are there. And it's just for the brands or the know. The brands go on that journey, or the consumer surfer who's like looking at their product. They've got to read between the hype and go, I want to buy this one and not this one. And the reasons are because it's Fairtrade, organic, you know, you can put your values as a person onto your purchasing sort of power. Like I said, all of the answers are there. All of the products are have been made that we need generally on there. Like there's no like we're going to invent this incredible product that's going to change the world. As a server, I don't know what's the most recent radical product, the dry robe, maybe. Possibly. Like there's no like radical innovations coming in the space. If you talk about clothing and wetsuits and boards, you could argue are going to change like seasonally or whatever. Um, all of that work has been done, like it's literally all been done. So you've got. And you could use Patagonia's example. You can use for this example, you ought to known and a lot of the brands, they would probably have a couple products in the line that would like take a few of these boxes. But the reason why they don't go across all of the ranges of product, basically just a margin issue as far as I can tell, because it's all available. 1s And just becomes the margin of we need to sell more, cheaper products with a bigger margin to stay in business. You know, there's always a true cost to pay. So if the true value of a t shirt from Primark, someone you couldn't call on was going to cut a corner on the quality of the product, on the quality of the material, on the on the workers that are making the product they're going to get, you know, they're not Fairtrade certified factory, they're not playing like, you know, safe guards in the workplace for the products, and you're cutting the corners, you're going to cut corners. And that's why you get cheap products. Sustainability like this like umbrella term enviro eco. They're sort of big, these big loose words. But think the use of language is really important so that you can kind of cut through. There's so much noise. And and as someone looking into the service industry or the board, you know, you're going to buy a new wetsuit or boardshorts. It's like if it says sustainable or eco, you're going to, yeah, I'm in. But then it's like, you've got to go. You got unpick the layers and it's hard for a surfer to do that because I like the color blue and the boardshorts at blue. I'm going for it. 1s But you know, unless stretchy and it says as eco or sustainable as am in. But then it's like, you know, Patagonia is not a sustainable company in the fact that it's it's a responsible company. We have a massive impact on the planet. We make a zillion fleeces that shed microfiber. We got Gore-Tex jackets. We previously used these like Gore-Tex fabrics with. 2s Like how you waterproof your jacket and with toxic chemicals which are forever chemicals also removed. So Gore-Tex and these other products away from some of these like forever chemicals. Um, so it's a it's an ever improving journey that you're on. And to say that sustainable. It's just not true really. It's like it's responsible that you can. 1s I mean, the only way to be sustainable is you don't make any products really, only forever. Use what you've got. Like the most sustainable product is the one you've already got. Basically, that's the sustainable. What this is most sustainable car is the one that probably needs service and keeps going for another 100,000 miles. Not the brand new shiny electric one that we'd all love to drive. Um, 

 U1 

 76:14 

 so it's like, yeah, the word sustainability. 1s Is overused and it's over relied upon. Maybe it's like the fairy tale, but there's not. There's nothing in the soap industry that's fairy tale like that. Like so yeah, the witch probably shouldn't even be used, like, really? Because it's like it's mean. What sort of product is sustainable? There's just not. There's just not one. So then and then you rewind it and you go is the best we can do. Recycled fabric boardshorts. 

 U3 

 76:43 

 Is that the best we can do? Like, that's not sustainable. It's like making. There is still a pretty grim process. 

 U2 

 76:52 

 Um, you know, there's some. But then guess to be more positive, there are some really good innovations out there. So there's really good innovations from like, the people like Berio. So that's that. Um, 1s they source a nylon from the fishing nets in South America, largely the nylon gets. So the fishing nets come in. Previously they were burned on the fish quay, abandoned at sea, but they put in a value so that the fishing nets come into port. And the fishermen that are going to bin off the waste net get a payment. So there's a value on the waste that gets cleaned, washed, politicized and then sent off to get turned into fabrics. And the fabrics then could become the like, the plastic in our capped or peaks of our cat, or the fabric in our waterproof jacket or our boardshorts. So that is like. 1s Making use of while you're avoiding virgin petrochemicals. As you're diverting ocean waste and avoiding petrochemicals, which would turn into plastics to use for all gear. So that is like a super positive story. But then the reality is that a lot of our products, because they've gone through those extra processes and they're trying to support it all the way down the supply chain. And you know, they're not you could argue they're not that it's quite exclusive due to pricing, for example. 

 U4 

 78:14 

 But then I think we saw push back and then say, well, that is the true price of the product. If you want a product to show a true value, like if you want organic fruit, you're going to have to pay the organic farmer more for your crops than the conventional farming. So everything's in-built. You know, when people are stressed about cost of living and there's wars happening and there's like horrors around the world. But what we do control is, you know, we've pretty fortunate in the Western world to live in generally safe areas and be, you know. 

 U2 

 78:47 

 You know, surfing for a living or, you know, we're surfing for health, not for a living, but for our fun, our enjoyment over snowboarding. Well, like, we're on the real, like the fringes of, like, privilege. So we're in this position where if we are in a position of privilege to live by the coast or be able to spend time in the mountains, you know, we should be the ones that are really putting our money where our mouth is and also really championing what we love. And that is for us, the ocean or for the skiers. It's this the snowboarders and the snowboarders, the mountains or whatever, you know, and the mountains are losing glaciers. They're losing the ski resorts. The seasons are getting shorter on the coast. We're having incredible heatwaves. We're having forest fires and Portugal. Yeah, and Canada and Australia. And so we are literally like, you zoom out. From our day to day worries. 

 U5 

 79:42 

 And the world is changing at an alarming rate. And climate change. It's again language. It's not climate change, it's the climate crisis. And the climate crisis has happened before our very eyes. So if we're on that privileged end of the spectrum, we should use everything in our power to support the science, support data, support the brands that are more responsible so that all of those decisions, you know, if we don't do it, 

 U1 

 80:08 

 we, you know, people are like, oh, it's not going to happen in China. Well, it's we're it's our world. What's in our control. And as an individual. Right. What can you do? And that's if you're a brand or what can you do. And as a marketeer for a brand like the ones you mentioned, that's when the language comes in. Really importantly, like the word sustainable should not be associated with anywhere to and the you know, the word, the word eco should not be in any marketing spiel like it's just. And that's where that cultural thing and the cultural language really is misleading for service because we should be like, bang on it, because we should lead the way, because we're in the sea every day if we're lucky enough. 

 U5 

 80:49 

 Unlike the people that are in the high street or the other fashion brands or whatever. Like 100%. It's like a first world problem, isn't it? We can worry about environmentalism and responsible product when you're in a comfortable position to not have to worry about where your next meal comes from and think, that's what you know. There's a lot of the comments online and half are going to be for this and half against it. And it's like, 

 U3 

 81:13 

 you know, some the things like what 

 U4 

 81:14 

 what what about ism? Like what about what about everyone in China. What about everyone in the Da? It's like, well, we are here now and we can do this in our world. Like, what's our sphere of influence? So you've got a platform, 1s we've got Patagonia, got a brand. We are super transparent. We put together our like some of our individuality of all of the European surf industry. It has a massive impact. And and that will push into that. The outdoor industry is way more forward thinking than surf industry, but to me it's so frustrating. But it's not believed that surfers aren't the ones like leading the charge. And it's like we haven't even got our own. Yeah, we haven't got our own house in order, like literally. And that as a pure surfer at heart who's loved and worked for those big brands and has friends in those big brands, that's what really boils down. But because, you know, it's a problem that can be solved, the answers are there and they can do better. I want to call out limestone wetsuits as being a total myth, like saying that limestone is eco. That just clouds 

 U5 

 82:14 

 the decisions of the whole, of the culture of surfing. So just to go into that point a bit more. Basically, limestone wetsuits are quarried out of the earth. You have to then melt the limestone at 2000 degrees C or 3000 Fahrenheit to liquefy the rocks to make the rubber in your wetsuit. And yet the surf brands are still claiming limestone as eco and sustainable because it's a natural rock. But oil is also a natural substance. So you can have a petrochemical wetsuit, which is already liquid petrochemical or limestone, which you've got to turn rocks to liquid. 

 U2 

 82:54 

 And 

 U5 

 82:55 

 then the reason we want this limestone wetsuit is because it's ultra flexible. Well that's brilliant. We all want a nice, flexible wetsuit. 

 U1 

 83:03 

 But the natural rubber alternatives are pretty much on par, if not better than most wetsuits. Now, you know, I'd say they're on par. They've not maybe not been seen as being the most flexible suits, but that was probably largely down to our, like, internal 1s choices on what products we're going to make. So all of the marketing and we're talking about the culture of surfing and the culture of sustainability, it's inbuilt 

 U5 

 83:30 

 into the culture of surfing. That limestone is eco and it's a myth and that's perpetuated by all the surf brands. Imagine you're a surfer buying a wetsuit and you're making the choices, and you want this colour and this fit and this size and this price and this water temperature. And then they cloud the water and it is like, that's where literally greenwashing comes into it because it's like, well, you you're like choices. You're, you know, there's a zillion wetsuits out there. And I'm not saying like, everyone can afford the best natural rubber wetsuit, but if you want to sell a lime to wetsuit, that's totally fine. Like sell a limestone wetsuit at this price. And it has these features. That's awesome. But the saying that it's got in some way, some like eco green tick box, that's where my problem with it comes in. And on top of that, 

 U2 

 84:19 

 that the where the culture comes from. So it's either it's from the brand. 1s Distribute it out in marketing to the servers, or the servers have to sit there and navigate this like. 1s Techno geekery speak from the marketing teams. It's really hard to navigate even 

 U5 

 84:37 

 within brands. So I'm like, those wetsuits are mostly getting made in one by one big company in the Far East. 

 U2 

 84:47 

 Um, 

 U5 

 84:48 

 and that company. So pretty much all the wetsuits are made in the same factory. It's got a lot of say that as well. Ripcurl have their own factory, and there's a couple of other factories, but they pretty much all made one factory. And then that factory gets its raw materials from, um, chlorine, which is like the sort of chips that go into the wetsuit and they get their chlorine from a factory called dank. Dank is one of the biggest chlorine producers in the world. They have a factory in Louisiana and a limestone factory associated in Japan. And around the factory in 1s Louisiana is an area called Cancer Alley. Because of the air quality in Cancer Alley is so high. High that there's. You know the factories here? There's multiple factories in the area, but around this one particular factory is the hot spot for certain, like airborne cancers, which is decimating the largely black community around Louisiana. And it's a super tragic story. And, you know, there's lawsuits flying around and there's the EPA, this and that and like, whatever. So the but basically the chloroquine that goes into a wetsuit that also is part of the automotive industry and loads of other companies, and that's kind of the source of a lot of this chlorine is is Louisiana. We are, as surfers, totally unaware of this link between the two things. But surfing's got a part in it because the, the likes of, you know, surfing is used. As a green washing, a blue washing like, hey, surfing brings so much joy to the planet. So it's like surfing's got this value that equinor's see in it. Denker will be saying like, hey, but we you know, we're providing like good vibes with we're providing raw materials for surfers that know we're providing all this great surfing equipment that is, you know, enriching people's lives. But and the surf brands are saying, we've got this awesome limestone. Neoprene is really good. But you're like, it's. 

 U1 

 86:50 

 You go and lay it down. And it's not like there are alternatives. There are natural alternatives which are higher quality rubbers that are on par with whatever wetsuit you want. Like if your biggest concerns flex, like how many people can like, touch your toes at this point in time? We're not all Kelly Slater's. We might have been really good once upon a time on that one amazing way we caught last year or something, but only this wetsuit. There's like this flexible. You're the surf shop and you pull the arm of the wetsuit. Well, your arm doesn't flex that way, like. We're all surfers and we all like it. Would love lots more surfboards and fly around the world to the best waves like. And I don't think that has to stop. Like you just have to be really conscious about your decisions. The world is going to keep spinning. You just have to try your best with what you are and like, really just be really conscious and mindful and mean. Think the word. The language around sustainability is really weak. Thinking that no one's calling out the brands when they when they're getting it wrong. So that I think there's a reality check that needs to come because all of the answers are there, all of the solutions are there, and all the science is there. So it's like there's really clear decisions you can make that are within your power. Think, think. The way forward has been. 

 U5 

 88:08 

 It's like responsible business can be successful. It's probably the way to to look at it. It's like you can and then it's for this the surfers. If we're surfers on the call, it's like for the surface to make those decisions and, and reward those responsible businesses with your hard earned cash that you try and, you know, like that's that's the way forward. 

 U2 

 88:32 

 As cave's final words echo in silence, we stand at the tip of understanding in action. We have crossed the grassroots efforts of Finished Stair to the corporate halls of Billabong, meeting people like Adam Hall and Gabe Davis, who have redefined what it means to be sustainable. This exploration has shown us a raw side of sustainability the challenges, the myths and the real impacts. It's been a journey not just of learning, but of unlearning, of stripping away the gloss to reveal the heart of the matter. We're leaving this chapter with a better understanding, but also with way more questions, ready to take more responsible steps in our adventure filled lives. As we let the idea of sustainability simmer, we're packing our belongings once again for a trip to a place where the desert meets the sea. We journey to tag a zoo. Morocco. Here, the culture as ancient as the Atlas Mountains mingles with the soulful essence of surf. It's a land where the call to prayers blends with the call of the ocean, creating a melody that resonates with the wanderers spirit. Join us next time as we travel through the labyrinth of streets, engage with the warmth of its people, catch up with old friends, and surrender to the magic of its waters. Again, it was a pleasure to spend time with you. I'm Sonny Fassler, and you're listening to Duct Tape Theory.