In this episode of 'Spinning Values' by Beekaylon, hosted by Kartik Chaudhry, Michiel Swagemakers, founder of Swatech, shares his journey in the textile industry. Michiel discusses Swatech's operations, including their customer-centric approach and the importance of confidentiality in client relationships. The conversation covers the evolution of technology in yarn production, the scope of the European carpet market, and partnerships like the one with Beekaylon in BCF and FDY yarns. Micheil also touches on the significance of sustainability in textiles and Swatech's future vision in high-end yarns and agricultural textiles.

Ep. 12 - Michiel Swagemakers, Swatech

[00:00:00] Michiel Swagemakers: So that's what I mean with being confidential and keeping it all to yourself. You develop something with a customer. So customers are either willing to work with you or not. So they're willing to work with us. Most of them are we show what our suppliers can do, what the newest machinery is, what the newest ideas are you, you can't find that out yourself when you're a customer, when you're a carpet manufacturer, you don't have the time to travel around the world and go look for all these suppliers because you have a factory, a business to run.

[00:00:30] Michiel Swagemakers: This is what we do.

[00:00:32]

[00:00:35] Welcome to another exciting episode of spinning values by Beekaylon. Where we delve into the fascinating world of textiles. Your host is Kartik Chaudhry. Today we have a very special guest joining us from the Netherlands. Micheil Swagemakers. He's the founder and driving force behind Swatech, a dynamic yarn agency that has been reshaping, the carpet yarn [00:01:00] market in Europe.

[00:01:01] In this episode, Micheil takes us through his incredible journey in the textile industry, sharing insights into his company's operations, the importance of customer centric, business practices, and the evolving landscape of textiles and sustainability. From the technical aspects of yarn production, to the intricacies of maintaining strong, confidential client relationships. Micheil provides a wealth of knowledge that is sure to inspire professionals and enthusiasts alike. So sit back, relax, and get ready for an insightful journey into innovation, sustainability, and the future of the textile industry with Micheil Swagemakers of Swatech. Let's dive in.

[00:01:45] Kartik Chaudhry: Hi, Micheil. Welcome to spinning values by Beekaylon. It's a very interesting and uh, new kind of a thing that we've started. I probably, this might be the first of its kind textile podcast in the world. So thank you for joining [00:02:00] us today. And we are looking for hopefully we are looking at an insightful conversation.

[00:02:05] Kartik Chaudhry: So Micheil before we begin, why don't you start with your introduction and, you know, let the listeners know what do you do, where you are what is your company all about?

[00:02:15] Michiel Swagemakers: All right. Well, first of all, thank you very much for inviting me and having this opportunity.

[00:02:19] Michiel Swagemakers: Well, we are a small company based in Holland called Swatech. We are a yarn agency although we take the agency part a bit further of doing massive traveling permanently, as you can see, I'm in the car also now, I'm always in the car, traveling. We are mainly into carpet yarns, brass yarns, which are being produced in India or in Turkey.

[00:02:46] Michiel Swagemakers: What we do with the three of us, we travel in Belgium, Holland, Germany, Denmark, England, Spain, France. Mainly going to see customers making the gap a bit smaller between Turkey, [00:03:00] India and, and. Doing all the developments, getting, making sure that all the samples are done right, getting all the information and chasing up sampling production, planning paperwork, which is a huge thing and transport nowadays.

[00:03:20] Michiel Swagemakers: It's not very easy. And that's what we do. And we used to do, we used to do it ourselves. So, we were involved own manufacturing in Belgium and in Poland, so we had our own manufacturing factories, so we know what it is to produce a yarn. Unfortunately, that's more and more yarn producers, spinning mills, extrusion mills are moving east since it's a very price driven industry, textiles with two digits behind the comma.

[00:03:52] Michiel Swagemakers: There's not a lot of, lot of room of producing basically a standard product in this part of the world here in Western [00:04:00] Europe.

[00:04:00] Kartik Chaudhry: Okay. So because you, you touched upon I mean, what you do and, you know, it's, it's, it's seems like it's all about, it's not all about, there's a huge percentage of your work that goes into carpets.

[00:04:11] Kartik Chaudhry: So Beekaylon is pretty well known for their BCF yarn production in India, and it's probably one of the biggest players. Manufacturing BCF. So tell us about how this, about your partnership with Beekaylon, how did it start and, you know, since they supply BCF yarn to you, what is the scope of carpet market?

[00:04:30] Kartik Chaudhry: In Europe generally.

[00:04:33] Michiel Swagemakers: Well, obviously when you do this six days a week, minimum for 20, 30 years, you know, all about all the producers all over Europe, all over Asia, India, everywhere. We know for a long time. But the real connection came when one of my business friends, Mr. Martin, who is now the production officer there, who is Dutch.

[00:04:56] Michiel Swagemakers: And I used to work with him. That makes a huge difference. [00:05:00] So it's a lot easier to communicate. It's a lot easier to understand each other's wishes what the customer wants, the culture, and it's, it's simply, it's simply It gives also the customer a better feeling that there are some Dutch people in, in the factory who actually live in Sylvassa.

[00:05:21] Michiel Swagemakers: Just makes it a little bit smoother. And of course, we traveled and we traveled a lot over there. Martin comes over here. We tried to keep, although India is very far away, it comes a bit closer that way. That's actually how we met long time ago. 20 years ago, I think, but now since two years, we work with Beekaylon and we go there every couple of months and they come over here and we travel to the customers.

[00:05:46] Michiel Swagemakers: So, and it's growing very fast and very well, actually. So in all kinds of products. Sure.

[00:05:53] Kartik Chaudhry: Can you tell us some of the products that you procure from Beekaylon?

[00:05:58] Michiel Swagemakers: Yes. Well, there are two types of [00:06:00] products, as you mentioned yourself there's the FDY yarn, which is very fine yarns Used in all kinds of textile industry.

[00:06:06] Michiel Swagemakers: And next to that there is BCF yarns, built continuous filaments. Mainly used, so actually only used in carpets. So these two we sell. Very fine yarns go into very soft carpets, into rugs, also 4 meter wide carpets. We sell those to the carpet tufters and weavers in Western Europe. And these are made out of polyester.

[00:06:30] Michiel Swagemakers: A huge advantage is that there is also a big market for recycled polyester, which is very convenient from India. There's a lot of RPET available, but not too much money. And next to that, we do our BCF yarns as in polyprop, as in polyimide, as in polyester, and recycled polyester. And that can be anything from residential carpets to contract carpets for hotels and automotive car mats or scraper [00:07:00] mats for doors for mattings.

[00:07:03] Michiel Swagemakers: So it's quite wide. It's a reasonably endless, endless market. Okay.

[00:07:09] Kartik Chaudhry: That's

[00:07:09] Michiel Swagemakers: great.

[00:07:09] Kartik Chaudhry: Yeah. Martin. We like I've been trying to convince Martin to join Bollywood for a long time, but he refuses to do so, but

[00:07:18] Kartik Chaudhry: so, I mean, he, he actually, he resembles one Bollywood actor and I had told him and everyone agreed with him that, yeah, he does resemble one Bollywood actor. So that was fun. So. Yes. Okay. So, so that's interesting and thank you for the information. So we also wanted to know what, what are your views and what do you think is the scope of the carpet market generally in Europe and how's it like, are is it mainly used for house rugs?

[00:07:46] Kartik Chaudhry: Do people mainly buy carpets just the beauty of it, or there is a functional element to it.

[00:07:52] Michiel Swagemakers: So there's, there's a big market for four meter wide carpet. And next to that, there is rugs. Now, the [00:08:00] four meter wide carpet is mainly used for residential. So, apartments, rental houses bedrooms, staircases.

[00:08:10] Michiel Swagemakers: It also it's an insulating product, so it keeps, in the winter, it's more comfortable than hard flooring. So you see it a lot on the second floor in a house. Next to that there is rugs, of course rugs on hard floor. That can be either polyester, polyprop, or polyamide in BCF or FDY. Then there is the polyamide BCF market, which is mainly used for contractor carpets, which is carpet tiles of broad loom 4 meter wide cut pile or loop pile carpet, for hotels, for banks, for businesses.

[00:08:45] Michiel Swagemakers: anything. So those are different types of markets. And when one shrinks, the other one usually goes up or the other way around. So, and that's the game we are in. That's what we're playing in, in this area and this, [00:09:00] this part of the world. So you have factories here who do only do mats. You have factories who only do residential or only do contracts, usually branded names.

[00:09:10] Michiel Swagemakers: We also do, but not from Beekaylon. We also do. polyethylene grass yarns, which is a different market again. This is all within where we, where our office is within two, 300 kilometers. That whole markets is around here, Western Europe, Northwestern Europe, the producers.

[00:09:28] Kartik Chaudhry: Okay. And do you see the market growing?

[00:09:30] Kartik Chaudhry: And if it's growing, then how well is it growing or it has been stagnant? And what is your observation around it?

[00:09:38] Michiel Swagemakers: Soft flooring is residential is not growing. It has been decreasing for quite a while now. That doesn't mean there is, there's still a huge volume. There's still big players out there. And as we all know, it goes up and down with 10, 20 years.

[00:09:54] Michiel Swagemakers: And again, as I said before, the resident, the contract market is reasonably [00:10:00] steady and depending on house market rentals, et cetera. Grass, the grass, the turf business is going up. So when one goes up, one, the other one goes down. So it's still, it's still it's still a big business as simply said. Okay.

[00:10:16] Michiel Swagemakers: Okay.

[00:10:16] Kartik Chaudhry: So, tell us, I mean, with your extensive experience in the, in this space how have you seen the technology and innovation evolve in this sector particularly in terms of innovation? Like, have you seen, you know, has it become more efficient?

[00:10:32] Michiel Swagemakers: Yes, absolutely. So when we started in the nineties, where we, there was still a huge market for staple fiber yarn.

[00:10:40] Michiel Swagemakers: Slowly moving away, being replaced by BCF yarns, man made fibers whereby there was a, as everywhere, a price pressure machine market jumped into that, selling, producing, developing machines, which were quicker, which make, could make better yarn runability was better, [00:11:00] higher output, lower cost price.

[00:11:02] Michiel Swagemakers: So yes, there is an, there is a big evolution going on, was going on. Okay. I would say started mainly 20 years ago where you can, where you have a one step yarn with three colors instead of a two step yarn, for example, complex machinery, very expensive German complex machinery, but that's, that's what the market is.

[00:11:22] Kartik Chaudhry: And tell us about Swartek about the company and as in, what is its unique proposition? And what sets it apart from other players in the market? And also, can you share some important key factors that makes that is, that has contributed to Swatech's success and reputation in the market.

[00:11:39] Michiel Swagemakers: Well, we, we started Swatech already 16, 15 years ago when we came out of spinning ourselves.

[00:11:47] Michiel Swagemakers: So we knew the market, we know we knew the customers. What we saw a lot is there's a lack of commercial effect, following up stuff. So everybody was focused, not everybody, but a lot of [00:12:00] people were focused on high production, high output, low prices. Quick, quick, quick. And forgetting about all the rest about quality, about following up on wishes, following up on, on trends, following up on trials in this market, there are trials all over the place.

[00:12:14] Michiel Swagemakers: If everybody wants to be ahead of the other one having said that if you have 40 or 50 customers, which we do, you have to be very confidential, not to show product A to customer B, et cetera, et cetera. So, and that's what setting. I believe that's what we do our best for, to set us apart from others to keep it confidential and, and get the best out of it for the customer, but also for the producer, of course.

[00:12:40] Michiel Swagemakers: And we always look for the long lasting business. So we've tried to set up ranges. 5, 10, 20 colors, which takes a long time. And then you grow into ranges, which will last in a couple of years. And that's what we do. And then we have rather two people, Luke who is over 60. He has 40 years experience in [00:13:00] making yarn.

[00:13:00] Michiel Swagemakers: He's very good in, in the, in the technical side. He follows up on trials on paperwork also travels a lot. and we have a a young guy called Yuke and he's usually with me helping me with all the rest of it. So again, traveling and following up on stuff.

[00:13:17] Kartik Chaudhry: So, basically what you are saying is you have built a strong customer centric culture and the fact that What I was trying to understand more is about, like you had said something about confidentiality and how it sort of, makes it a unique value proposition.

[00:13:31] Kartik Chaudhry: So have I understood it right? Like that's something, is it like an ethical practice that you have consciously like did you sit down one day and decided that this is how we are going to go or did it just organically came into your organization?

[00:13:45] Michiel Swagemakers: Yes, that's, that's, that's also a bit how you, how you've been raised or grown up, you have to be correct and honest to everybody.

[00:13:51] Michiel Swagemakers: And I, I, I think we can say, honestly, in the last 20 or 30 years we have never lost a customer. So we've never had a huge [00:14:00] argument where we fell out because we did something Which was not allowed especially in, in, in, well, I mean, in any market, it's not textiles, but if there are two competitors and someone has a new product, which we happened to supply you don't go running around it with it, go to the next one, the next one, next one, then, then you're, Then your name will be gone within three months, which you have built up in five years or 10 years.

[00:14:24] Michiel Swagemakers: So that's what I mean with being confidential and keeping it all to yourself. You develop something with a customer. So customers are either willing to work with you or not. So they're willing to work with us. Most of them are we show what our suppliers can do, what the newest machinery is, what the newest ideas are you, you can't find that out yourself when you're a customer, when you're a carpet manufacturer, you don't have the time to travel around the world and go look for all these suppliers because you have a factory, a business to run.

[00:14:55] Michiel Swagemakers: This is what we do. So we have actually, especially for a small company [00:15:00] has a huge turnover but we get a very, very small commission fee but it works for us. We have a very small office and that's about it. So we're actually never in the office since we're always traveling.

[00:15:11] Kartik Chaudhry: And so I'm curious to know that how did you end up in this industry? What drew you to it? Was it again, a conscious choice that you made or did it just happen?

[00:15:21] Michiel Swagemakers: I think everybody has a point in their lives where they have to say, well, what are you going to study? So, you're either going to make some food because people will keep eating or you do something in textiles because you don't want to run, run around naked on the street.

[00:15:34] Michiel Swagemakers: So I chose for the last one. But having said that my father, grandfather, et cetera, they're always in the spinning mill industry in Holland, in Tilburg. And that was always wooden spinning going back more than a hundred years. So there was always an interest for that. That whole industry in Holland has disappeared, wool and cotton was huge in Holland all went away within five years in the seventies, all moved [00:16:00] east and that's, that's a bit how it got my attention and interest when I was 18, 19, I went to Germany to study textile techniques, Germany, high tech textile machinery, that's where it all made.

[00:16:14] Michiel Swagemakers: That seemed to me the perfect place to learn it. So I stayed there for four years in

[00:16:17] Michiel Swagemakers: the school there and went to work in a spinning mill and that's how it started.

[00:16:22] Kartik Chaudhry: Oh, okay. Interesting. So, okay. So now from there, obviously, I mean, we work with a lot of textile companies in India you know, as an agency, you know, we are helping some small players in the market to build their brands.

[00:16:36] Kartik Chaudhry: And we are sort of, always trying to convince them that why brand is important. You know? Because a lot of these guys are traders, you know, they, they they do business like traders their their work ethic is. old school, they are still on their phones, putting orders. And we are always trying to help them digitize their business.

[00:16:54] Kartik Chaudhry: What is your point of view on that? What do you think? Do you think brands matter in the [00:17:00] yarn industry or do you think it's still a relationship network? A game and you see evolving?

[00:17:08] Michiel Swagemakers: Yes. Well, in the position where we are in, it's more the relationship because we are a business to business. And a brand is more and more likely for the end consumer, my opinion.

[00:17:18] Michiel Swagemakers: So you have to convince the customer, the person who buys it in the shop, that you buy a brand. We are the person in the, in the middle. So we are selling a brandless brand actually. And just always trying to get the best value for money. That's sure.

[00:17:37] Kartik Chaudhry: Okay. But like when you are choosing a partner, say like Beekaylon or a manufacturer that you buy a yarn from, or what are the key elements that you are usually looking at when you sort of, shortlist someone and finally go with a manufacturer.

[00:17:52] Michiel Swagemakers: Well, what I find most important is who is behind the company. Is it a family? Is it, is it venture [00:18:00] capital which we do not prefer. So we always work with families, families who own a company, usually second or third generation. know, we know what it is. We have a company who are really into it, who take their business home.

[00:18:13] Michiel Swagemakers: So to say, as we do it, it can't be a too small company. So it has to be some volume behind it and it can be massive. So preferably all in one town or one village and of course it's all about, it's people's business. So you have to like the people. They have to like us. Sure. It has to be a click.

[00:18:32] Michiel Swagemakers: That's what, so we say. More machinery. We, we, we can't work with old machinery. That's the modern machinery. Good laboratories. We look at the offices the people capable of all the paperwork and all the questions asked. And. quick responses are very important and that all has to do again with people and the owners and the management as is Beekaylon, which is perfect.

[00:18:53] Michiel Swagemakers: Yeah, that

[00:18:54] Kartik Chaudhry: sounds about right. So, Micheil, now we are just coming to the second half of the conversation and you know, soon we'll [00:19:00] be wrapping it up. So I wanted to ask with you I mean, we do hear a lot about sustainability and this, this push towards to, to, to, for all the manufacturer manufacturers.

[00:19:10] Kartik Chaudhry: Even in countries like India and China towards sustainability. I wanted your point of view on it. Do you look at sustainability like, is it something you look at in the kind of business that you do? What is your point of view on that?

[00:19:24] Michiel Swagemakers: Yes. I believe everybody would, would, would love to have a very sustainable world.

[00:19:28] Michiel Swagemakers: But we all have to work within the square where you win and you can't go across certain lines, possibilities more and more. There is a recycled content, content in any polymer, especially polyester. And as I said before, in this conversation in India, there's a very good, Reliable source for which we're using more and more, and that works very well.

[00:19:54] Michiel Swagemakers: So a recycled content it costs a bit more, it's being accepted in the market. That's [00:20:00] good, but it's not only what we, and that's, that's for everybody. It doesn't mean that when we develop something together with the supplier and the customer, and it has a recycled content. It's also what is very, very important.

[00:20:15] Michiel Swagemakers: What happens with the product after five years, when it's, when it's no more use of after 10 years, no more use at the consumer. What do they do with it? So it's not only us producing something it's where is the circle going more and more and more, we have hardly any influence on that. But that's what we believe the world should be changing into.

[00:20:37] Michiel Swagemakers: Where does the waste go? I know there's a huge industry and lots of people working on that, but yes, recycled polyester helps in that. A carpet is made of a multiple multiple polymers, multiple types, and that's usually old fashioned way, latex on the back which doesn't help. So there are customers who are looking for a monoproduct.

[00:20:59] Michiel Swagemakers: For example, [00:21:00] a polyester yarn with a polyester cloth with a polyester backing. These are things we can all supply. Of course, this is the, this is more expensive than the classic volume.

[00:21:13] Michiel Swagemakers: So it's, it's not big, but it's growing. There is a lot of interest in that. And we believe that the governments will play a part in that soon. Like in the automotive industry, whereby the big brands say we need a certain percentage of recycled content. Your product which is, which is fair, which is good.

[00:21:30] Kartik Chaudhry: Sure. So actually you have, you did answer the next question that I was going to ask that, is there like any specific demands from the consumer that you you get and are the consumers, according to you are becoming more conscious about the products they are buying, or you still think there is still a big gap in educating Because ultimately the market forces, you know, they, they uh, uh, cater to what the consumer demands.

[00:21:56] Kartik Chaudhry: So do you think that trend changing?

[00:21:59] Michiel Swagemakers: I believe [00:22:00] every consumer prefer a recycled product, even, even if it's electronics or textiles or car, but we all have to be realistic. It's can only be a very small part, so we all have to do our best. Not to consume too much, much which most producers don't want to hear, but that's, that's the fact.

[00:22:16] Michiel Swagemakers: We all want, we all, we all want recycled products, but you can't, you can't all have it. It has to do with quality, availability, price. Okay,

[00:22:26] Kartik Chaudhry: So, Micheil my penultimate question for you is you've spoken about the history of your company. We've learned about your background which sounds pretty interesting and it seems you are at the right place in your life.

[00:22:37] Kartik Chaudhry: Coming from your previous generations, but what is ahead? What is the future vision? How do you see Swatech say in the next five, 10 plus, and then after that, how do you, what is your future? And is there any particular growth or innovation or any technology that you are excited about?

[00:22:55] Michiel Swagemakers: Of course, nobody can predict the future, but what we are aiming for is [00:23:00] more high end.

[00:23:01] Michiel Swagemakers: So polyamide, which is a more constant, long life product. Difficult to develop, takes a long time, smaller volume, lots of traveling. So it's polyamide and recycled polyester and polyester. That's mainly what we're focusing on. Obviously polyprop will always be the main big volume. Next to that in Swatech, we also have Swatech Agricultural which is a separate brand.

[00:23:23] Michiel Swagemakers: Where we, whereby we sell textiles to the agricultural industry in Western Europe, to Spain, France, Holland, Belgium, Germany, baling nets, ropes all kinds of products, wrapping foil which is also an enormous market. And usually these products are being made by the same people who we already deal with for the carpets, for the carpet yarns.

[00:23:45] Michiel Swagemakers: It's all made out of the same polymers film, rope, nets, it's all woven or knitted. So we might as well try and sell that, which works very fine. We're doing that now for three years and there are some large, large amounts of containers coming this way from Turkey and from [00:24:00] India. So that works well. So that's, that's a focus also.

[00:24:05] Michiel Swagemakers: So to do more diversify, not only in carpets, but artificial grass, carpet tiles, and looking at every opportunity, of course, if something comes along, but having said that with the three of us I believe we each do between 50 and 80 hours a week.

[00:24:22] Michiel Swagemakers: And we usually not at home. So it's, you have, you have to watch out that, that you still do what you do. Right. And you have enough time for that. But yes, we're all motivated. Even if you're 25 or 60, it doesn't really matter. We're all very motivated and we're all, as you see, we're in a parking lot in between customers.

[00:24:43] Michiel Swagemakers: So,

[00:24:44] Kartik Chaudhry: yeah. Okay. That's really good to hear and wish you all the luck for your future goals. So my last question to you is, as I mentioned in the beginning that there are a lot of students also that listen to this podcast or a young professionals or people who are just entering the [00:25:00] industry.

[00:25:00] Kartik Chaudhry: I mean, they are from different fields, they could be managers, they could be engineers. So, because you have such a vast experience in this field, can you give some advices on kind of what skills or mindset do you believe are more crucial to be successful in this industry for all the young people who are listening?

[00:25:18] Michiel Swagemakers: That's a very wide, difficult question, which is unanswerable. But as I said, I'm a, I'm a proud father of three children. And as I would, as I tell them try to have a goal short term and long term work towards that go for your goal be honest be nice to the people around you. And it's not, it's not, it's not about money.

[00:25:39] Michiel Swagemakers: It's, it's about. Having a goal to do what you like to do and possibly make, make the world a bit better. So that that's what you should be doing. And, and be happy at the end of the day that you've done a good, a good job for yourself and for the people around you and just work hard, with discipline. And try to learn as much [00:26:00] as you can.

[00:26:00] Kartik Chaudhry: Okay. That sounds about right. So thank you so much, Micheil, for joining. Thank you very much. I know you have a busy schedule and we did it on a very short notice also. So I hope people gain some insights just while we say goodbye to the audience, just let us know where people can learn more about Swatech.

[00:26:19] Kartik Chaudhry: You have a website. We'll keep all the links. Just if you can tell people what is your website. And if you have LinkedIn or any social media

[00:26:27] Michiel Swagemakers: LinkedIn, we have LinkedIn. We're very easy to find on the swatech.Eu Europe. Very easy. And on LinkedIn, you'll find us very quickly. Swatech Yarns and more.

[00:26:38] Michiel Swagemakers: And that's where we are. And we'll be posting lots of things that we're doing. So

[00:26:42] Kartik Chaudhry: there we are. Thank you so much, Micheil. Thank you for your time. Thank you for joining us.

[00:26:46] ​

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[00:26:47] Rajeev: That's all we have for episode 11. We hope you enjoyed listening to this conversation. This is an original podcast by Beekaylon Synthetics. Do visit Beekaylon.com to listen to the rest of the episodes or [00:27:00] follow us on Spotify or Apple. This podcast was produced by Inscape Media. Hosted by Kartik Chaudhry and edited by Rajeev Nedumaran. Thank you for listening to Spinning Values.