The Hot Mess Boss Adventure with April Palmer: Embracing Curiosity and Authenticity in Sales

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:

Hello. Hello. It is Celeste with the sales edge pod. I'm here with April Palmer, and I'm so excited. A funny story, and then I'm gonna let April introduce herself. I have seen April on the LinkedIn. Right? The mothership of business networking and connecting. And I was so scared to reach out to her because she has such a big personality.

Celeste Berke [00:00:23]:

I had impostor syndrome, and I thought, What if she doesn't connect with me? Do I have anything to say? And then a turn of events, she walks up to our booth at Saster in September. And she's this tiny little peanut, and we hugged. And it was just like an awesome moment of, like, oh my gosh. We're just 2 women. Right? Like, shooting the shit. Like, not even a big deal. Get out of your own freaking head, and here she is on the podcast. So tell us a little bit about yourself, all your roles, everything that you're working on.

April Palmer [00:00:52]:

Okay. All the thing. Okay. First of all, like, what's hilarious about this is I've heard a couple of people say that they, like, worry about reaching out to me, and I would like everyone to just know that I'm the most, Like, there's a reason why all of my social media is called hot mess boss because I'm like I'm a I'm a Fucking disaster. Wait.

Celeste Berke [00:01:14]:

What was that?

April Palmer [00:01:15]:

Did I ask you? Yeah. I am, like, I'm a fucking disaster, and I'm so down to earth both because I'm short and also because that's my personality. And so, like, unless you're gonna send me a picture of your genitals, then which is, like, not allowed, Then connect with me because I love meeting new people, and I totally fangirled over you in return. And so it was so fun to see you.

Celeste Berke [00:01:39]:

And we're very similar in age, you know, both have kids. It's just you realize the stories that you make up in your head are not what's happening in real life. So, yes, thank you for being human and going with the flow.

April Palmer [00:01:53]:

True. We're we're so human. And I tell myself fake stories all the time. And I actually have a sticky note by my desk right here that says, are you telling yourself a true story. And I have to read that to myself on a regular basis because my anxiety lies to me a lot too, Or maybe it doesn't. It doesn't.

Celeste Berke [00:02:13]:

Yes. And I was so impressed when you start talking about surfing, and now you have this podcast, and you have this new idea for business. Oh, now that you're an adjunct professor as well, and you're traveling the globe, and you have kids. And I'm like, where where does she fit all of this in? So give us a brief a brief synopsis of all of your roles, what you're encompassing, and individuals you like connecting with.

April Palmer [00:02:37]:

Okay. So my real job, like, my real actual day job that is the bread and butter for me is I work for a company called Duckbill Group. We help companies optimize their AWS costs both through their infrastructure and by helping them to renegotiate their contracts with AWS. So you're talking 100 of 1,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 of dollars worth of contracts with AWS, and we help people pay Jeff Bezos less, which is, like, everybody wants to do that. Right? It's amazing. Then I also teach Part time as an adjunct professor at VCU, we have a very small group within VCU called the da Vinci Center, and we're like the island of misfit boys, which is really super fun. So we teach product innovation. We kind of marry, like, technology and sociology ecology and sales and revenue growth and entrepreneurship.

April Palmer [00:03:32]:

So it's this kind of super awesome hodgepodge of ideas to help bring in the next generation of entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs. And so, like, that's exciting. And, in fact, Our team just got an award from Fast Company as we have been recognized as some of the world changing ideas that we're putting out there in educations. We're fucking playing the game, which is so fun to be part of that team. Because I'm like the weird one where I'm like, I don't know why you keep hiring me. But I look around. Everybody else is so smart and, like, good at what they do. If you want me to sit in a room and listen to what's going on with your business and throw, like, a couple of really good zinger ideas at you and then be like, peace out.

April Palmer [00:04:13]:

I'm not don't make me do that thing. It's just a great idea, then I'm super good at that. What else I've got.

Celeste Berke [00:04:21]:

Holy fuck.

April Palmer [00:04:21]:

I have 3 kids, 22, 22, and almost 18, 1 blind 6 cats. Sandy vacation. Off an epic vacation. I got one. So I work remotely because I can work from anywhere. So I just take my computer, and I just back off to wherever I wanna go. Most of the time, it's a surf destination. So I just got home from 2 weeks with my parents in Portugal, and I taught my parents how to surf, which is.

April Palmer [00:04:48]:

Me. I did Amsterdam for 3 weeks earlier this year. I've done Costa Rica, Spain, Portugal, Canada. And I just take my take my board and whatever and just go.

Celeste Berke [00:05:02]:

That's awesome. And I think you touched on something, you know, looking back to the days when I was in college. There's a lot of theory. And the days that really stood out for me were either when you had to go somewhere and do something and, like, put it into practice, or someone from this, like, fictitious outside world that you didn't even know of because you're in this box for warriors came in an unleashed about the real world. And you're thinking like, what? I don't know. How is it? Like, I'm I'm sitting here with all this theory, which sounds great, But now we're talking about real life and practice. So I think that while you may feel like an outsider, this is relevant to what is happening. Like, someone who is in the trenches and working.

Celeste Berke [00:05:42]:

I have no clue. I have an AWS account, and I used to put things in the cloud when I, I don't know, back before. And I taught myself how to do it, but I don't understand it at all. So I can only imagine these companies, they they don't get it either. So the practical side of teaching our next generation int entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs. They probably love that you have, like, the ins and outs of the real world.

April Palmer [00:06:06]:

Right. And I don't sugarcoat things. I mean, I know we're getting ready we're here to talk about sales, and this, I think, is across the board for me is I I read this article by Simon Sinek once, and he talked about surrounding yourself with people who will give you real feedback rather than the feedback that you want to hear. And so in my mind, I translated this to, like, be a person who gives a fuck about other people's success so much that you will tell them the real story, whether that's, like, what really happens in entrepreneurship or, like, what's actually going to happen if They don't change things in their business when I'm trying to sell them things of which is actually, like I'm not really good at selling people things. I'm just kind of, like, there and help facilitate the process for them to to get to where they need to be. But this is one of the things that I do with teaching too. Like, I taught one of the One of the myths that people say all the time is, like, do what you love, and you'll never work a day in your life. And that's the biggest honk of bullshit I've ever heard in my life.

April Palmer [00:07:13]:

Do what you love. You won't sleep because your brain won't turn off. You'll get an ulcer. You'll lose your hair, maybe your marriage and, like, all of your money and, like, most of your sanity. Right? So it has to be worth it. And I think It's the same thing when we go into sales and these sales conversations. It's like, you have to be able to say to the people on the other side of the table, Like, I'm gonna give you the real skinny and if you whether you like it or not. Right? And, like, That's it.

April Palmer [00:07:48]:

And you do with that information what you want. If that's buying from me, awesome. If it's not buying from me, also awesome. Most of the time, that means I'll see you again in 6 months, and I'll charge you double. But, like, fine.

Celeste Berke [00:08:00]:

Yeah. And I think that comes from we talked a lot about that on our team as well. Like, Totally detaching from the outcome. Going in and saying, hey. The agenda for this call is this. Whether you work with us or not, I'm here to, like, drop value, to show you, to uncover. Like, you do with that information whatever you want. I'm not gonna sugarcoat it because if I can help you, and you go work with someone else.

Celeste Berke [00:08:24]:

Like, I still showed up and provided value and credibility, but often in sales, we're so attached to that outcome in getting the sale that we are icky, and we don't provide any value.

April Palmer [00:08:35]:

Right. Trickle down economics in practice. Right? Like, Leadership says we have to and it makes sense. Right? We have to have a certain amount of money to run a business, full stop. But then that trickles down to sales quotas, and sales quotas get so ingrained in what salespeople are doing on a day to day basis that it's really, really hard to step back and say, you know what? I'm just here to do what's best for my customer and client and make sure that at the end of the day, the promises that I'm making, like, we can deliver on those promises, or I can hook them up with somebody you can. But but it's hard to be able to do that if you work for an organization that's really attached to activity metrics and hitting certain quota milestones in in specific ways. And that He is a really hard reality to face that we kind of live in today from a sales world because I believe that if you do the right things and you do them consistently for as many people as you possibly can, that, like, Goals don't really matter. You'll sell as much as you can.

April Palmer [00:09:44]:

Right? End of the day. And so I never look at my goal really other than to know, like, am I hitting some accelerators so I have some fun money. Maybe something. Right? But, like, it doesn't matter. If my goal is however many 1,000,000 of dollars and I do the best that I can, and I can sell half of that. That's literally the best that I can. And if I can look at myself in the mirror and be like, I did the best that I could, and I work to grow and learn and all of those things. And if I triple my quota, also, like, cool story.

April Palmer [00:10:14]:

That's the best that I could do. But, unfortunately, organizations don't, you know, work on April.

Celeste Berke [00:10:23]:

Yes. And so we talked on this. You know, I asked a question. What is your Sales Edge, and I know you have many. Like, what makes you unique? What is different? What's a different approach? How would you answer that knowing that you just gave us some some tidbits it into, like, the April way, which is show up authentically, and it kind of works itself out now or later. What would you say to that?

April Palmer [00:10:44]:

I think that my biggest edge is that I am probably one of the most curious people you have ever met. And so I walk into every sales call with this kind of, like, burning curiosity. And it has nothing to do with building a business case so that we can do an ROI so that we can put together a proposal that knocks the shots off. Like, that type of great. It's awesome. Right? I get it that those things are important. That's what pays my bills and buys my plane tickets, which which is really important. But, like, when I have a sales call and right now, I'm I'm all 100% inbound right now.

April Palmer [00:11:29]:

And so, like, it's a little bit different. But even when I was outbound, I would do the thing where I would, like, get to somebody's website. And I'd look, and I'd be like, oh, I don't know what that what they do. What does that mean? And then I would Google that, and then I would be watching videos and YouTube things and whatever and become an accidental expert on some part of their business. And it it didn't really matter if it had anything to do with what I was selling. If I could walk in and be like, Hey. I was reading this, and this happened. And then also, did you know that this company did that? And, like, all of a sudden, people realize that I'm not necessarily there to sell them.

April Palmer [00:12:08]:

I'm there to, like, partner with them, and I'm so curious about who they are and what they do that. I'm also then going to dig into their problems and ask why, who, what, and where, why how like, as many times as I possibly can until I actually understand what's going on at the heart of the issue.

Celeste Berke [00:12:30]:

Really, like, her think once you're channeling those 3 kids you had and, you know, early on when you're just like, well, why? Why? What about what about this? What about this, mama?

April Palmer [00:12:41]:

I'm kind of a toddler when it comes to sales. Like, I'm so I'm genuinely excited to learn more. And And then what's fun about that is when you end up going into other companies that do something similar or are somehow attached to it, then you get more and more knowledge. And that that really legitimizes you in the face of your clients as well. But I think they I I think they just feel like you care about them.

Celeste Berke [00:13:11]:

Yeah. That genuine curiosity. We talk a lot about that on a team. You'll hear it in our sales calls. We're, like, really curious about this, and It sounds to me like that sales edge, that genuine curiosity is what leads you versus any type of agenda or these are the questions I have to ask. It's really leading with curiosity about what is going on in a business so I can help them regardless of that outcome. And then in the process, yes, you're kind of getting that PhD as well and learning from each potential customer or everybody you have a conversation with. I love that.

Celeste Berke [00:13:48]:

And so

April Palmer [00:13:50]:

I think One of the things that because I know, like, you do so much with gap selling, and I remember reading that selling. And it just, like, I mean, I have a really honest moment with you all because this is what I do and who I am is I fucking hate business books. Like, they're the worst. They're awful. And because most of them should be called, it's common sense stupid. Right? And so, like, you you I get all of these sales books, And there's always a chapter on, like, send a follow-up email. Well, fucking. Right? Like, what year are we in? Sorry.

April Palmer [00:14:24]:

But one of the things that I love about gap selling is that there and, like, that stuck with me because I tend to get, like, 1 little gym out of everything. I think I got more. I got more than 1, Sheena. Sorry. But there's this like, are you really uncovering a problem? We talked about this earlier. Or are you uncovering an issue with a process? And, like, cool story that you can fix an issue with a process. Cool. Like, people will pay you for that.

April Palmer [00:14:55]:

It's good business. It's great. But if you can actually uncover the problem, but more than that, what caused the problem and what is the ripple effect of the problem and who all is impacted by that and what that means to them. So for me, a lot of times, if I ask question and question and question let's just talk about, like, AWS and group. I end up learning like, oh, we actually are planning to IPO in 18 months. And so it's really important for us to make sure that this contract is the appropriate contract with AWS so that we can publicize it during our IPO because it gives our investors and future stockholders' confidence that we have this partnership with AWS. That is why this is so important. Well, guess what? That is not a decision then for a VP of engineer

Celeste Berke [00:15:48]:

Right.

April Palmer [00:15:48]:

To make. Like and they don't value what we're doing. They won't pay what we want them to pay. So you've got to because we may be easy, but we're not cheap. And you know? So, like, if you don't know those things, if you haven't figured out every person who's And not, like, every every person. Right? But, like, enough people to get in and say, what's actually going on here rather than the surface level, then you're not doing it right unless you're unless you're sole goal as volume, which is fine. Like, that's that is a a legitimate business and revenue growth tactic. It's just not the way that it works for me.

Celeste Berke [00:16:27]:

I love us. So it's like that curiosity around, yeah, what else is going on in the business? What else? What else? What is this impact? How does that show up? Like, what are their future plans? Where are they to that. It's about asking a whole bunch of questions and realizing that that process, that sales cycle, all those conversations, Like, it may not be on your timeline. It could be a longer timeline, but when you're uncovering, could get more stakeholders involved. Right? You may have back to the drawing board. It could be a bigger problem. They have to fix something else first before they can even chat with you. So I love all of that.

Celeste Berke [00:17:03]:

Curious about a myth. I know you and I talked a little bit about these. We tend to put salespeople in boxes of Salespeople need to be prospecting and doing this and sending cold emails or have a certain right? Like, all of this stuff,

April Palmer [00:17:21]:

which

Celeste Berke [00:17:21]:

I was on a training earlier today, and I can just see it. Right? All the, like, followers of, you know, we're gonna do this process. No. Just freaking be yourself. But What is a sales myth that you would love to bust right here on this show?

April Palmer [00:17:36]:

Okay. Well, My very favorite sales myth that I love to buy, and it's, like, actually a business myth, is that you can't show up authentically, whatever that means for you. You can't say the word fuck because I do. And if y'all ever look at my LinkedIn profile, if I haven't scared you off yet, it's in my headline twice. Right? Like, It's fine. It's, like, it's professional. But I think if you show up as yourself and not who you think that your client wants you to be or who you think that your boss wants you to be. Then you're more likely to attract people who want to buy from you because they can feel your sincerity.

April Palmer [00:18:16]:

But here's another one, and this was, like, actually my original one because this is something that this. I would rather scrape my own nails down a chalkboard if we remember what those Mhmm. Are before whiteboards and, like, whatever. Or, like, have someone untie my belly button without anesthetic before I did this. I get I, like, sign up for newsletters all the time. I wanna see what other this is the curiosity. Right? Like, I sign up for newsletters. I read them.

April Palmer [00:18:45]:

I wanna know what they're teaching people. I wanna know what's happening in the sales world, in the business world. And one of the common themes that I get in my inbox all the time is how to take control of the sales call. Come on, y'all. Really? Do you think that your prospect wants you to roll up and be like, hey. I'm going to take control of this. You're going to talk about the things that I wanna talk about on the timeline that I wanna talk about them and the context that I wanna talk about them in. Like, people fucking hate that.

April Palmer [00:19:16]:

Do not walk into a sales call and think that you're going to take control of it. Like, you can build a framework for it. You can have goals for it. You can you can ask questions around what their goals are for all of those things. But, like, If you're showing up to take control of a sales call, all that means is that you are word vomiting at your client and they potential client. And they are tuning you out and thinking about who is a better solution for them. And guess what? Like, it's probably status quo. Like, it's it's It's way easier to just keep doing what you're doing even if it's painful than it is to have to work with somebody who shows up like a fucking asshat on a sales call.

Celeste Berke [00:19:58]:

And, you know, an an interesting this happened to us yesterday. We have an opportunity. They canceled, said what was what had happened, which is a death in the family. I reached out today saying, you know, had what other time because they proposed a future date. Can we nail on a date. And then they sent me back some information about what was going on with family. I was like, you know, my condolences. Obviously, that's most important.

Celeste Berke [00:20:24]:

I could have kept pushing it. Right? Like, We need to nail down a time. What date works for you? But I'm a human being and understand that when there's a death in the family, when something happens in a business, like, that's on their timeline. It's not on yours. Right? It yes. Business was on, but we're also human. So how do we honor that, And how do we wanna be treated? We forget that in the sales process. Like, if someone was doing that to us, like, fuck off.

Celeste Berke [00:20:49]:

I'm not gonna buy from you.

April Palmer [00:20:50]:

Oh my god. Yeah. We do it every day. I had, about a year and a half ago. Is that right? About a year and a half ago or so, I was buying a new car. And, like, I've been in the automotive industry, and And so I kind of know enough about it. Right? But, also, I'm very aware of what I'm looking for whenever I'm buying. I'm like most of your buyers.

April Palmer [00:21:14]:

I do hours, sometimes hundreds of hours of research on my own before I ever approach anyone to let them know that I'm looking to buy a thing. Right? Like, I'm becoming my own expert in this. And so the my number one buying criteria for a car. Number 1 was they had to offer concierge pickup and delivery with a loaner car to do my oil changes and other maintenance. Full stop. I work a lot. I travel a lot. I've got a lot of responsibilities, and the last thing I'm going to go do is go sit in a service area waiting room while somebody changes my oil.

April Palmer [00:21:54]:

Not gonna do it. And then I decided that I wanted a Subaru. Like, my my kids are getting ready to start driving and, like, all of it, which is hilarious because my oldest is 22, and she's had our learner's permit since 2018. And she still doesn't have her driver's license. She's never even taken the test. But so I I was like, okay. We want a Subaru. So I started calling Subaru dealerships, and I was like, hey.

April Palmer [00:22:20]:

So Here's the deal. I am specifically looking for 1 of these 2 models. I'd like to buy it in the next 2 weeks. My number one buying criteria. The thing that is going to make a decision for me is whether or not you offer lifetime concierge pickup and delivery of this car for service. And it was amazing, the responses that I got. Like, I called 5 dealerships and 4 of them, 4 men, who answered, and I told them. And they're like, well, we don't do that, but.

April Palmer [00:22:54]:

And I was like, oh, no. No. Unless you're saying but we will do it for you, and we'll put it in writing. That's my number one. But and they're like, Oh, but we can give you this much off and this and I'm like, you know what? Your $3,000 off of MSRP doesn't work for me because my time is way more valuable than that over the lifetime of this vehicle. The last 1 I called is a female owned dealership at Liza Borsch. She's amazing. And the woman I talked to said, yeah.

April Palmer [00:23:25]:

We can do that for you. And I said, will you put it in writing? And they said, yeah. We'll Put it we'll put it in there, and, like, you'll do it during the f and I process. We absolutely do it. And I was like, okay. And I literally drove out that night and bought a car. Full stop. And, like, y'all, we have to listen.

April Palmer [00:23:43]:

There's no that the those other salespeople tried to take control of the conversation, but the Fact of the matter is I knew what I wanted, and most of your clients do too. What they're really looking for you to do is help them justify it. Right? Like or add insights to something that they didn't they didn't think

Celeste Berke [00:24:03]:

about that there could be, like, a ripple effect to or something that's happening in the industry that you have insights over. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. But

April Palmer [00:24:11]:

But by the time you get in front of a buyer, They are pretty sure that they know what they want, and what they really want is for you to help them build an ROI. And you cannot build a business case. You Cannot build an ROI unless you have more information. And so, like, stop trying to close them and start trying to help them build the business case to do what they already want to do full circle.

Celeste Berke [00:24:37]:

I love this. And thank you so much for sharing your insights. I mean, we could We could probably talk for forever, so I know that this is just the beginning of many conversations. For individuals, we will obviously link your LinkedIn here. But tell us quickly, who are you most interested in connecting with. So if that individual is watching or they have a referral, they can pass it your way.

April Palmer [00:25:02]:

Yeah. Amazing. Okay. So From a group perspective, we help companies that are spending $500,000 or more a month on their Amazon Web Services costs and are looking to spend less or renegotiate their contract with AWS. Oftentimes, it's in the financial insurance, hospitality industry, like, you know, kind of big companies. But more than that and, like, really, truly, I just like cool people. Like, I love I actually teach how to LinkedIn. It's a class that I teach at VCU.

April Palmer [00:25:35]:

And I always tell my students, I'm like, you can go find people who are your ICP. And this is, like, This is actually shitty sales advice, so, like, don't take this as sales advice. But for me, this is good life advice. Like, find cool people. Cool people know other cool people, Who also know cool people, who know somebody in the industry who's like your ICP. I I just love awesome, like, raw, baller people. And I wanna get to know them, and I wanna consume their content on LinkedIn and, like, interact with those conversations because that's what gives me life every day while I sit here in my home office with, like, my weird random heads. Can we notice this? Like, I've got a pink head.

April Palmer [00:26:17]:

I've got there's there's Julius Caesar with pencils sticking out of his back. I've got this little chalk There's another head. Oh, there's a camel head.

Celeste Berke [00:26:25]:

From your travels. From your travels. I'm sure. They're little trinkets. They're little trinkets.

April Palmer [00:26:31]:

Yes. But for some reason, disembodied heads are my thing.

Celeste Berke [00:26:36]:

Not a problem. And, you know, here we are, 2 ladies wearing our hoodies Showing you that you can show up authentically. I know. Hoodies. You can. Although it's, like, 77 degrees here right now, so I probably have to d hoodie. Showing you that you can show up as your authentic self, bust those myths, but also lead with value, and then connect with really awesome people because they know awesome people. And I'm And we chatted earlier today.

Celeste Berke [00:27:01]:

You gave me some amazing advice. I'm gonna connect you with someone in my network, and that's how it is done. So I truly Appreciate you spending time with me today, and everybody can hear your story. Connect with April on LinkedIn, And we will see you next time.