Fierce Conversations and Sassy Selling: Insights from Nichole Barker

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:

Hello. Hello. This is Celeste on the Sales Edge podcast. I'm joined with Nichole Barker, and I'm so excited to jump in today. She just told me off air, sales managers are going to hate me, so we know she's going to be drafting some juicy bits here. She was actually requested by the whole gap selling team to come on this podcast because she is one of the longest standing gap selling supporters out there. And I love for her to share not only her journey. She was a gap sell Kenan contestant in twenty twenty and learned a lot from that, but has gone on.

Celeste Berke [00:00:37]:

And literally almost every time we have a webinar, she is front and center. No stranger to raising her hand to jump in. So, Nichole, tell us a little bit about your current situation, your current role, and what, this is the only time we're gonna say it, what your product is.

Nichole Barker [00:00:52]:

Yeah. Definitely. So Nichole Barker with a company called DMG, digital marketing group, Based out of Portland, Oregon, but I am in Cornfield Northwest Ohio. So if you have any questions about corn or soybeans, I can try to answer them. But yeah. Yeah. I was on Gap. So Keenan back in 2020 and have learned a lot.

Nichole Barker [00:01:15]:

Digital marketing group, I work with some small, medium, large sized businesses on on their marketing. I will come in, do some consulting work with you to figure out what is the real problem. What is the what is the thing that's stopping you from doing x, y, and z? Where is the juggle. You know, according to Gap Selling, what's the business problem? I figure that stuff out and try to do it quickly. And then, you know, I can do some consulting and you just you get me, and then I also can provide marketing services to help you reach your future status. Attribution, growth, you know, whatever that looks like. I will help with those things. So

Celeste Berke [00:01:59]:

Awesome. Yeah. That's Well, thank you. And we just learned that I am your elder by, I don't know, 2 months or something.

Nichole Barker [00:02:05]:

Yeah. Just just just a few days.

Celeste Berke [00:02:08]:

Do it's so interesting when you arrive at a certain age. Right? Women over the age of, let's say, 40, we won't give it away, and lens starts to change. And I know for me Yes. I have accelerated my learning. I've learned more in the past 3 or 4 years than I had in the 10 prior. And it sounds like you were telling me earlier 2020 was your biggest sales year yet and also just a huge catalyst for you to start developing your learning. So let's dive in a little bit and talk about what makes you unique as a seller. When we when we first started chatting off air, talked about being in that marketing space.

Celeste Berke [00:02:48]:

Right? And now moving into a seller's role. What have you learned? What is your sales edge? Share that with us.

Nichole Barker [00:02:58]:

Yeah. So I've learned, like you, I learned a whole lot in the last 3 years. And it's you know, marketing, I have realized, is like dog years. Anything that happens in marketing, it's 7 to 10 years ahead of the last year before, the year prior. So with that being said, I sell marketing, which is great. It's my favorite thing to do, and I think my sales edge is that I am authentically sassy. What I mean by that is when you get me, you you get me. You don't get different versions of me.

Nichole Barker [00:03:37]:

If you run into me in the grocery store, it's gonna be the same exact Nichole as if we were on a sales call together. I had a manager a few years ago when I first started doing cold calling. She said, Nihcole, you're looking a little limp there. It's time to put your sassy pants on. And so I've kind of brought that with me everywhere I go, and I put my sassy pants on every day. And Because of that, I'm not afraid to have fierce conversations, which if you haven't read the book, Fierce Conversations, I can't remember who the author is.

Celeste Berke [00:04:13]:

Okay, fierce conversations.

Nichole Barker [00:04:15]:

Alright. Fierce conversations. I'm not afraid to have fierce conversations with my clients, my potential clients, My client said I'm about to fire, and I think as women, we need to remember it's okay to be sassy. It's okay.

Celeste Berke [00:04:32]:

So Yeah. Interesting. I not sure that would be the advice I'd give my 4 year old. I'm actually trying to, like, tone down the sass, right, in that in that age group. But, yes, as we get older, we are often told, be that good girl, be poised, be professional. Right. And that's something that I've been working through a lot myself. So my mentor at ASG, our general manager, Rachel, whom you know and you've talked to and have seen over the years, will tell me that all the time.

Celeste Berke [00:05:02]:

The Celeste that's on stage, that's on video that's on the podcast. When you're on sales calls, she'll say you're presenting that same stage presence on your call. What the f are you doing? Just be normal. And I was like, what? I am? I feel like I'm back in that corporate role of, like, let me put my suit on. Let me act like I'm forming and using big words and the language, whereas people truly, and you and I were chatting about this, just want to view as a human. See the imperfections and that you pause during a sales call, and you're really taking time to think about before you respond versus when you get the calls and it's a straight up script that someone is reading and you know you're just a number to them.

Nichole Barker [00:05:46]:

Mhmm. Do. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it when you're in that sales call and when they can see the when the potential client can see that you're really thinking about, and you're really listening to what they're saying. And you come back at them with, wait a minute, But you said this a few minutes ago. What are you saying now? That doesn't make any sense. Help me figure that out because it doesn't make sense.

Nichole Barker [00:06:18]:

And being able to have that, like I said, that fierce conversation with the client, basically, calm them out on their bullshit Because there's so much sometimes that will happen, and you have to be able to and willing to

Celeste Berke [00:06:35]:

do yeah.

Nichole Barker [00:06:35]:

Call them out, and you have to be willing. The other piece of that is you have to be willing to walk away. If there is not that problem, Hey. It was great to talk with you. I don't think you're a good fit for me, and I am not a good fit for you. I wish you the best. If there ever comes a time where, you know, you need me or if I can, you know, refer you to one of my colleagues or, hey. I'm here for that.

Nichole Barker [00:06:59]:

Right? That that goes back to that authenticity, you know, that I care. I want you to succeed, but You're not a fit for me. Right.

Celeste Berke [00:07:07]:

And that's okay. Dating. So I went on 62 first dates in 1 year once, and every single one was this is this gonna be the one? Right? Like, trying to make it fit Yeah. And jumping right to the future state in all of this instead of telling myself it is okay if this one goes away. Like, there will be more. Right? As soon as my dad always told me, it's like the shooter's mentality. Because I was 36 years old crying. From age 34 to 36 was really tough dating and not knowing what was gonna happen and being a new new.

Celeste Berke [00:07:47]:

Tease, like, shooter's mentalities. It's like the next one, the next one, the next one, the next one. And I don't think that is tying yourself to the outcome. It is trying to say whatever the outcome is, like, it's kind of just a next, and it's a next. And I had that massive shift earlier this year, and I'm sure you have in your career as well, where you get so attached to the freaking outcome that it ruins it, like, ruins our life temporarily. Your relationship is ruined. Your day is ruined. You don't wanna eat or maybe you wanna overeat.

Celeste Berke [00:08:22]:

I can't be present. My mood has changed because you're so attached to this one didn't go in, and my husband Miles said it on the last podcast. That prospect is saying no and allowing me the opportunity to go find another. Yes. It's like,

Nichole Barker [00:08:39]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I also try to I I take my deals very seriously, and I take them personal. But I also know the person on the other side of the computer or the

Celeste Berke [00:08:56]:

the other side of the table.

Nichole Barker [00:08:56]:

They're a person too, and they have things going on in their lives that might affect our deal right now. It might affect their viewpoint of me right now, and that's okay. At the end of the day, hey. Great. I wanna leave you better than before you met me, and, you know, that's just me. Again, that authenticity and being sassy and And being willing and able to say, alright. Great. Let's move forward or, okay, we just need to leave it.

Celeste Berke [00:09:28]:

Aw. I love that. To have arrived at that place. And interesting tell us before we jump to the next question, what has had you so because you have changed jobs since 20 twenty, you said. Mhmm. What has had you, I guess, intertwined within the gap selling methodology that you've hung on and you keep trying to find ways to implement it in your day to day. What had you doing that?

Nichole Barker [00:09:54]:

I think it's really the Almost the psychology of it, understanding that there is something happening on the back end. There is something that is fueling this Loss of money or loss of time, whatever it is. You know, I was telling you about a manager I had had previous who was just, But, you know, she did teach me one thing. In sales, it's all about, at the end of the day, the last thing that really matters is how are you gonna make the money, how are you gonna save them time? And with gap selling, it's figuring out where are they losing their time, How are they losing money? How much money are they losing? And then how much or how or why do they wanna be in the future and just really keeping the idea in my head all the time of where are they now, where do they wanna go, even in my personal life, where am I now, where do I wanna go? You know? And then saying, okay. Well, here's these 2 pieces. For me personally, I'm making this much.

Celeste Berke [00:11:14]:

Yeah.

Nichole Barker [00:11:14]:

I wanna be making this much. How do we get there? What's keeping me from getting there? And then putting together a plan for it and saying, alright, listen, I need more tools or I need different tools or I need to get myself focused or I need to walk away from my desk for 20 minutes every hour just to refocus and recalibrate.

Celeste Berke [00:11:39]:

Yeah. It's usually that state. And I posted about this the other day, a grocery store example of I hate going to the grocery store. I loathe it. It makes me very upset on the weekends. I will bitch and moan and walk around my house, which I have to tone down the swearing. I'm not like I mean, Kenan spares a lot. I'm like Mhmm.

Celeste Berke [00:12:00]:

Obviously, I've started swearing more now that I've been in ASG. And my daughter, I've caught her multiple times this weekend. She was like, bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. I was like, oh, that's me. And we wanna talk about this place of, I can't see I'm going to restore all of these woes around it, yet I have not taken the leap to do pickup or delivery because it's, like, not that untenable yet yet. Right? I mean, I'm making everybody else's life miserable for the weekend when I talk about it, and then I don't wanna do it at the grocery start sweating.

Celeste Berke [00:12:33]:

Anything that goes back to when I was pregnant, I wouldn't I did do pickup when I was pregnant. I just was hanging over the groceries, the cart. Like, I I couldn't. I was so exhausted. And so that state was untenable, but I think you're you know, you've hit the nail on the head here where be constantly have to be rooted in the current state. Everybody loves to live in this future state where we all make $1,000,000 or more, and we win the lottery. Like, we're beach vacation. All that stuff is great, but what's happening in the current state, and what's this difference? What's the gap? And am I willing to make a change? Do which oftentimes is no for our buyers.

Celeste Berke [00:13:12]:

They aren't because they haven't been in their muck long enough in order to realize now I wanna make a change. Yeah. Alright. So so my last question here is your sales career. There's a lot of people. Right? Put put on the sassy pants, whatever advice people wanna give you. Outbound is dead. No.

Celeste Berke [00:13:30]:

It's not. Now it's this. Don't write an email with this. Now it's like, noise is coming at us all of the time.

Nichole Barker [00:13:36]:

Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:13:37]:

What is a sales myth that you want to bust?

Nichole Barker [00:13:42]:

Okay. So I have 1 salesman I wanna challenge, and it correlates with the one that I wanna bust. Okay? And like I said off air, sales managers and sales leaders are probably going to, like, hate me for this, don't shoot me it works for me it may not work for everybody else. The one I want to challenge is everybody's a client. Everybody's a customer. Absolutely not. I do not want everybody as a customer, as a client. Not everybody is ready and able to do business with me.

Nichole Barker [00:14:23]:

I know it sounds it sounds a little cocky, but it's not because I can back it up. I'm confident in what I can do. That kind of goes along with quantity over quality. I think it's silly. I had a manager one time tell me I had to sit down for 4 hours And make 100 phone calls and that it's a numbers game and that I'm gonna be lucky, and I'm gonna get 5 appointments. I would rather spend time researching who I wanna do business with And then target those specific people because I can solve their problem. I know what I know what I think the business problem is probably going to be based on the things that I know already, the clients that I've worked with before, why would I wanna go out and call 100 people that do underwater basket weaving in Northwest Ohio. Doesn't make sense.

Nichole Barker [00:15:30]:

I wanna call this one specific like, for example, the HVAC industry. I know it really well. I wanna call people in that industry. I'm gonna call those businesses because I understand what their business problem is. I also understand, Because I've worked with enough of them that there are some technical issues that they have, and I know the tools they're using, and I can say, hey. You know? We need to do this and this. So to make a very long story short, not everybody is your customer, And it is kind of a numbers game, but it's not a numbers game if

Celeste Berke [00:16:05]:

you do it the right way. It it can be a numbers game if you're swimming in a fully stocked pond of your ICP and individuals or organizations that you don't have a business problem. If you're just going out there in wide blue ocean of, like, anybody and everybody. No. Right? This is what leads to burnout. This is why reps get, like, so pissed off. And we'll see it time and time again. I had a call with a team the other day where they're not getting we're not booking any meetings.

Celeste Berke [00:16:34]:

So our it's actually the CEO. Just told us we need to make more calls. And I'm like, I don't know. Like

Nichole Barker [00:16:43]:

Yeah. It's like the definition, Yeah. The definition of insanity. Right? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. You know, if if you're just making more phone calls, will you eventually get somebody, you know, that says, oh, yeah, I need to talk to you? Sure. But if you called the right people at a time where they probably, You know, they need your help, and there is a business problem that relates to what you can solve. If you are confident In what you solve, and you you know your stuff. Instead of getting

Celeste Berke [00:17:24]:

you're fine. The dog pun. Yeah. Yes. What you're saying.

Nichole Barker [00:17:29]:

Yeah. Yes. Exactly. But instead of getting those 5 meetings for a 100 phone calls, you know, you can make 20 phone calls and get 15 meetings.

Celeste Berke [00:17:38]:

Do Yeah. I love it. Well, Nichole, individuals can find you on LinkedIn, so I'll make sure that we well, I'll tag you, obviously. Play. It's been such a pleasure pleasure getting to know you more in-depth than just from our webinar. So I appreciate the support and you sharing bring a little bit about the day in the life of a seasoned gap seller and someone who's constantly reinventing themselves tweaking because let's face it, sales is tough. And whatever we can do to aid people so they feel confident and and they're able to put on their sassy pants. Let's do that.

Celeste Berke [00:18:14]:

So I truly appreciate your conversation today. And remind us one more time, the book. Fierce

Nichole Barker [00:18:21]:

Fierce Conversations is the book, and I'm so sorry. I came to the author.

Celeste Berke [00:18:26]:

And I'll link it. So we'll put Conversations. That's an awesome title. Thank you again for your time today. I appreciate it.

Nichole Barker [00:18:36]:

Absolutely. Yeah. I appreciate it too. And if you haven't read Gap Selling, if you haven't been on the trainings, if you haven't been on the Gap in Hours or anything like that, you need to. It will change your thoughts on how to sell, and it will change your thoughts on Things that happen in your life, so read it.

Celeste Berke [00:18:58]:

There you have it, folks.