Ep16: The Shirt Says It All: Ashley Coghill's 'I Hope This Email Finds You Well' Chronicle and the Roller Derby of Empathy in Sales

Celeste Berke [00:00:01]:

Hello. Hello. It is Celeste Berke Knisely here on The Sales Edge Podcast. Super excited to welcome the lady of LinkedIn, a female who is out there advocating for other women in sales and marketing. I'm so excited to to interview you today and hear your story, Ashley. Ashley, tell us a little bit about what's been going on in your role. Well, first of all, if you're listening, you won't be able to see her T shirt. If you watch this on YouTube, you will.

Celeste Berke [00:00:27]:

It says, I hope this email finds you well. That's a whole another topic that I'm sure you're diving into, but please let's stop using. I hope this email finds you well. I actually wrote back to someone the other day, like, it did not find me well. I didn't respond, but I love those, so tell me about what's going on in your world, Ashley.

Ashley Coghill [00:00:47]:

Yes, so I am in a unique spot right now. I've been in sales for 11, 12 years, at least tech sales, a long time, and I just recently took probably my longest time away that was not maternity leave. So I'm coming off about a month and a half of of time off and I'm starting a new role in a week ish, so Very different for me. Usually, I'm hustle hustle, so this is great, but in my downtime, I actually rejoined a roller derby league. So I've been playing roller derby is what I've been doing in the past couple of weeks besides the podcast and all of that good stuff. But

Celeste Berke [00:01:24]:

Yeah. So your podcast when I pinged you the other day, I was listening to your podcast with Samantha McKenna. Always such a pleasure to hear what she has to say about showing me you know me. It can go not just about sales, but dating as well Yep. And with our spouses. Like, show me, know me by listening to what I say and also those nice things that we allude to with our spouse, so I think those words resonate beyond the sales org. So roller derby, how long have you been doing that?

Ashley Coghill [00:01:57]:

I started skating in 2009, I believe, So pretty long time. I skated pretty competitively for a long time and then had a couple breaks, had some babies, did all of that, and then COVID actually shut roller derby down for 2 years everywhere. And then moving to Portland, which I just recently did, the biggest roller derby team in the world is located here, so it's a very large league, and I decided to transfer in while I was in this transition. So just actually made a home team, so I actually get to be on a team within the league, which is really exciting. So dang,

Celeste Berke [00:02:35]:

I've never seen roller derby in action. I always thought it was, like, pretty badass, especially on the women's team. I'm forgetting the movie the

Ashley Coghill [00:02:43]:

With it?

Celeste Berke [00:02:45]:

Yes. Yes. So I did see that. That's about as close to roller derby. Well, it now makes sense, the skates that you have on your LinkedIn profile. So you've been in and around the sales space, probably very similar parallels to roller derby with, like, the ups and the downs, the opponents, your competition in sales. You don't know what to expect, a lot of preparation, then it's go time. Did you fumble? Not like a football, but

Ashley Coghill [00:03:10]:

Fumble your body.

Celeste Berke [00:03:11]:

Over your skate, and you fell. Do you have bruises? You have to pick yourself back up. So as you've navigated this sales roller coaster, we'll call it, what has stood the test of time for you? Kind of your sales edge, your it factor that helps you to stand out.

Ashley Coghill [00:03:29]:

Yeah. So I think I have a little bit of a unique, not that unique anymore, background where I started in retail sales before I moved into tech, and working retail hours really sucks. If anybody's ever done it, that's the worst. I was selling eyeglasses. I was an optician. Moving into tech where I was able to work from home sometimes or remote or all of those things, I was so grateful for it and I think some of that, like, diverse background where you have that hunger, because I was also making crap money compared to what you can make in this world of sales. That that's kind of the edge because you're like, Well, I could be slanging glasses and making 35 k a year instead of what I'm doing now. This is so much better.

Ashley Coghill [00:04:16]:

I am not going to let this opportunity pass me by, but I think, truly, at the core of it is that every time I'm in a sales role, I have to feel like I'm helping people. So I have to figure out, like, what is the thing that's actually making someone's life better? When I come into a conversation believing that I'm helping someone instead of feeling like I'm selling them something or trying to trick them. It's always just a better way to feel about yourself. I think just makes everything better for everyone, so it was kind of 2 answers.

Celeste Berke [00:04:48]:

Yeah, I love that we talk often on our team about really detaching from the outcome, and a lot of sellers I know are so tied to what's my quota, where am I, gotta get the sale, this is what I have to close, and showing up as Riley had said on one of our interviews with this commission breath. I just did a webinar about it last week as well about this detaching from the outcome. I actually broke it down when you're in sales, showing up to station ensuring that their life or the conversation is enriched and they're able to walk away with value and you shared your expertise whether they ever do business with you or not. So it sounds like you're in that same vein, and where did that switch comm from trying to sell to I'm here to help. When when did you think you arrived at that place?

Ashley Coghill [00:05:39]:

I don't think I ever wanted to be a salesperson. So my negative connotation like, the negative mind thought process of what sales was when I was in retail sales. I was embarrassed that I had a quota when I was selling glasses because I was well, I'm supposed to be helping people pick out the right frame or, like, actually be able to see. Right? And it felt a little slimy to also have a quota and be, like, well, if I don't sell these glasses to this person that I'm not gonna hit my number. I had to kind of think about that as, like, what am I doing that's gonna help these people and selling them these glasses is a good thing because they're gonna be able to see, but when I actually got into tech, Someone had to teach me the idea of the funnel and I had never thought, oh, this is your goal and you go up and you have to put this much in the top. So as I'm learning Salesforce, they're teaching me about the funnel and they're telling me how I should be on calls. I was getting on the phone and I immediately was like, okay. But how am I helping these people? And so I've always done it and it was one of those things where people looked at me like, what do you mean you're going with the app? This is how I'm helping you.

Ashley Coghill [00:06:47]:

So it wasn't really a switch. I think it was something that I had to do in my brain to feel okay with the fact that I was a salesperson, because it took me several years to actually feel like, I wanted to be a salesperson. It was a fake it till you make it kind of thing, and then when I finally realized that actually helping people is what sales is. That's when I was able to accept that I was a salesperson and feel proud of it, instead of being like, well, I'm in sales. So I think it came from trying to somehow lie to myself that sales was a good thing, But accidentally stumbling into what we're really supposed to be about anyway, which might be a little backwards. I think some people go into sales thinking, like, we have to trick people. Yeah. And I just that never sat well with me, so I just didn't do that even if that was the expectation.

Celeste Berke [00:07:38]:

Yeah me me neither. It's you know interesting my background I started in nonprofit and then I got into sales because I saw all these people in sales, and I thought, well, I wanna be taken seriously. Let me get into a sales job, and then people would say, oh, you're in sales? And I would do the same, like, Well, I'm not really, right? It's so gross. And then you arrive at this place of sales doesn't have to be icky, like, we have to stop assigning this putting all salespeople in a bucket that just like your shirts.

Ashley Coghill [00:08:14]:

Thanks, Will Aiken.

Celeste Berke [00:08:16]:

Right. Shout out to Will Aiken in his merch. It is when these behaviors are forced upon people where it's not natural, and we're stepping outside of our natural abilities that, yeah, we're having to fake it and doesn't feel natural to us nor comfortable, and the prospect can probably feel that too. And it it's funny, Rachel, who's my coach in gap selling because I'm a partner. I also get my own coaching every single week and my own 1 on 1. So it's a lot of business development too. And a couple of weeks ago, she was like, would you stop with your stage presence on sales calls? And I was like, what do you mean? And she said, you go into this, like I'm presenting. I'm in corporate.

Celeste Berke [00:08:59]:

This is what I am because of this this. And I was like, I am? And it's funny because the other day, I went, and my husband got me a gift certificate for my birthday. So I was like, I'm out. I'm gonna have some mom time. I never do this. And the ladies were, like, you're so funny, and I was just being myself. And I realized, like, that's what she's talking about on sales calls, like, stop being so buttoned up. People can see through that.

Celeste Berke [00:09:26]:

And I think that's what you're alluding to, this place of your showing up as your authentic self, really trying to help someone and detaching from the outcome.

Ashley Coghill [00:09:34]:

Mhmm.

Celeste Berke [00:09:35]:

Awesome. Well, superpowers come in a lot of forms, and I think women carry those, especially those who have tiny little children around as well. You mentioned this remote shift, and I think there's a lot of myths of more work gets done in the office. How has that shift to remote work from a quality of life standpoint for you.

Ashley Coghill [00:10:03]:

Yeah. So I purposefully one of my law of attraction things That I was focused on when I started in tech was work from home. I wanted remote, so I've been doing remote work for a lot longer than some of the people who started after COVID. I was remote fully remote before that with one short stint where I attempted to work in an office right after having my daughter go. So remote was something that was really important to me, but I'm also very extroverted. And when I got my 1st remote job, they said, hey. Just want you to know, like, we're fully remote. Nobody is required to go into the office.

Ashley Coghill [00:10:39]:

You might be sad because you're not gonna have a lot of people to talk to if you do come into the office, which for me was a good thing because being extroverted means I get very distracted when there are people in the office to talk to. So It's better for me to be home if I want to truly get the work done. That short stint where I was actually commuting down town. I was in Chicago at the time taking the red line train 45 minute into and I had an infant, so I would have to drop her off, hop on the train, walk downtown, get to the office, and I would get there. I was never the first one in the office, because I had to drop her off. Right? Like, it's not like I could get there at 7 AM, and it was crazy because I would get there and I'd be like, alright. Let's get to work, but people weren't actually doing anything. They got there early, but they weren't doing anything, And there'd be maybe an hour where people are on the phones, you could tell that they were working, but most of the time they're hanging out in the kitchen.

Ashley Coghill [00:11:34]:

My male coworkers that sat on other side either side of me would go to the gym for an hour and a half at lunchtime every single day. I wouldn't do that because I'm like, I gotta get my work done so I can leave and go get my daughter because I have to get her before 5 o'clock or else I'm not even gonna Right. See her. So and then I would be looked at, like, she's leaving at 4:30 again because it was the only way I was gonna get where I needed to go. And that little brief like, I left that job purposefully to go back to a remote role because it just did not work with my lifestyle. I think that that experience was very telling for me, because I thought maybe I am missing out on something by not going into the office and I can I can clearly say that's not true, because it was horrible for my my lifestyle? It was terrible for me. I was stressing all the time, I was rushing all the time and when I was in the office, it was still, like, felt like I wasn't getting anything done. So remote work, I promise you, if you've got people that you're forcing into the office, you're not getting as much work them.

Ashley Coghill [00:12:42]:

It's just not it's just not a thing, and if you've got parents on your team, it's just ridiculous. It's really weird to me that having people come in at 7 a. M. And leave at 6 o'clock, but, take hours in the middle of the day to go to the gym and go have lunch and do all of these things. That's more okay than a mom who gets there Soon as she possibly can, works her butt off the whole day, leaves, and then probably logs in and does stuff again after her kids go to bed, like but the optics of that, they thought that guy was being more present versus the woman and that's very not okay. Right?

Celeste Berke [00:13:21]:

So Totally. Yeah. I'm I'm definitely in that camp with you. I remember doing that, right, going back at 13 weeks and then you're pumping, and you're constantly worried about that and sitting in meetings. And, yes, if if the clock is ticking, you're sitting in traffic. And are you gonna get there? Are you gonna start charged because you're not picking up the child. You're in this constant state of high alert all of the time, which isn't a great place to be in if you're also trying to have work output. So kudos to you on knowing that that's something that you need not only for yourself but also for your family and that you can be just as productive, if not in the framework that fits your life but that also shows your employer.

Celeste Berke [00:14:08]:

It doesn't really matter what the hours logs are. It is about the output and the productivity and giving back to the team and being part of it, and I've seen a lot of employers make make a miss on that. So, hopefully, as this launches, you've selected a new place and you announce that, and we can celebrate that that you're still going strong and working remote, into 20 24. So the last question I asked guests, so I think it's so interesting. There's so much sales advice out there on what we should do, what not to do, and then it changes when new tech comes out or, you know, an influencer drops something. What is a sales myth that you'd love to support or bust that over the years was told to you and you've thought I'm not so sure about that anymore.

Ashley Coghill [00:14:58]:

Yeah, That's a really good question. I think one of my biggest pet peeves, and this is maybe a sales myth, is that everyone has to start as an SDR and then be an AE and then go into leadership or whatever that looks like. I do not believe that every single person should be an see our I don't believe every single person's gonna be good at being an SDR, and I also believe that people could be really great at AEs if they're not good at SDRs. And I think it all depends on the role, the company, the product, the segment, and I think it's really annoying when influencers or whoever comes out and says, well, you have to have full cycle or you have to have SDRs or you have to have your SDRs report to marketing or, like, all of these different things that they're lumping into one spot where it's that's just not the way it works. We need to adapt to what works for our prospects, our ICP, like, what we're actually selling and to whom. If we're selling an enterprise, very true enterprise thing, an SDR is probably gonna have a very hard time jumping into that And doing a really, really good job versus if you have a super short transactional sales, taking an enterprise seller Who's a closer and popping them in there? They're gonna have a really hard time, and I think that it's a miss to pay them all all these, like, oh, well, an enterprise seller is worth so much more than a transactional seller. I don't think that's true. I think that they are just totally different skill sets, And I'm sick of everyone getting lumped into buckets and not being allowed to try different things.

Ashley Coghill [00:16:29]:

If you fail at being an SDR, that doesn't mean you're not gonna be a killer closer. You. If you fail at SMB, like, super quick wins, that doesn't mean you're not gonna be amazing at enterprise. I think it's It's doing us a disservice as an industry to tell somebody, well, maybe sales isn't for you because you weren't good at these SMB. It's a totally different skill set To sell transactionally than it is to do to nurture someone for over a year to get them to sell. I think People who can do both are very rare, but it's awesome. And I just think it's unfair that you like, I think that somebody who's an amazing SMB Sellers should be allowed to continue to do that and still continue their career and be really successful and make a ton of money without ever feeling Pressured to become a manager or go into enterprise sales. I just don't think that that's the way that it should be.

Ashley Coghill [00:17:21]:

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that's what you're going for with miss,

Celeste Berke [00:17:23]:

but totally totally on onboard with you there. I remember my 1st sales job. I didn't have management experience. I'd never sold anything. I'd never been in the industry. I went through 7 interviews, got the job, and it set the precedent for that company that somebody doesn't have to check all those boxes in order to excel. And when we are checking the boxes as an organization versus looking at it as like a puzzle. Right? How are we fitting people together? What are we lacking in 1 and constantly massaging that, finding better success Verzuz.

Celeste Berke [00:17:53]:

Like you said, a lot of people posting. Lots of times, it's men. Sorry. I'm just gonna say it, but I don't see a lot of women out there posting. This is the path that you have to go. And especially now when we're trying to elevate women's voices, there are nontraditional ways in order for you to get into sales leadership. To be an AE. Doesn't mean you have to excel here or won some award or crush quota.

Celeste Berke [00:18:16]:

I mean, there are amazing sales leaders out there that don't have great track records in selling. And that's okay because there's so many lessons learned in the losses and the opportunities than in always having a win. So I agree. I don't think trophies matter. Just like in roller derby, you probably learn a lot from every time you fall and have a misstep where you check someone. I don't know if it's called checking.

Ashley Coghill [00:18:42]:

I'm sure

Celeste Berke [00:18:42]:

you when you're leaning your body into them, you're learning all of those nuances, but you learn a lot through the losses, not always the wins, and sometimes that is often overlooked. So thank you so much for shedding light onto that. Any final words, tell us your podcast. Where can people find it? What can they expect from it?

Ashley Coghill [00:19:05]:

Yep. So Ashley and Katrine's infinite revenue playlist. It is me and my cohost, Katrine Reddin. It's sponsored by Commsor. So big fan of them and Mac Reddin who also, does this for us without any expectation of ROI to produce the podcast. The whole point is elevating women in revenue, so sales, marketing, success, Anybody who's touching money, who's a woman in in business, basically, that's who we wanna talk to, and our idea is that by interviewing people like Sam McKenna and then interviewing people who maybe don't have that that huge following but have something to say. We can get those voices out there so people can hear from women who are Amazing and learn from them and it's kind of fun because we do have that little twist where everyone picks the walk up Song. So there's actual playlist.

Ashley Coghill [00:19:54]:

So you can find the podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, YouTube, and then the actual playlist is also on Spotify if you wanna hear all of the women's walk up songs compiled together, which is it's a pretty good it's a pretty good playlist.

Celeste Berke [00:20:07]:

Yeah. Definitely. I love that. And I was thinking the other day, I have to hype myself. I'm an extrovert, so I have to, like, pop myself on when I'm, like, going on camera or delivering a webinar. This year, I did a webinar for 500 people, you get anxiety over that, so I like to play the eye of the tiger song. Nice.

Ashley Coghill [00:20:27]:

Like, talk to anybody speak to that one

Celeste Berke [00:20:30]:

yet. Yeah. That would be that would be it. Or, you know, we're we're huge into the frozen playlist as well over here with my toddler, so that doesn't as much pump me up, but see my little one get pumped up. I so appreciate your time. Definitely, people can connect with you on LinkedIn. You have a lot to say over there elevating women's voices, and I'm so excited for this next chapter and to stay in touch. Thank you so much for being our guest.

Ashley Coghill [00:20:57]:

Thanks for having me.