Ep17: Knock-Knock, Who's There? Will Aitken's Cheeky Take on Challenging Sales Norms (Trust Him - He's a Salesperson)

Celeste Berke [00:00:01]:
Hello. Hello. It's Celeste Berke Knisely on the Sales Edge Podcast. I have a unicorn with us, A legend, Will Aiken. You made a huge announcement recently about your of this.

Will Aitken [00:00:18]:
The logo. My AI generated graffiti art logo.

Celeste Berke [00:00:22]:
Yeah. I

Will Aitken [00:00:23]:
don't know why I went through all the graffiti as well because I'm not street. I'm not urban, But I just like color. But you can listen to my voice. You can hear more teas and biscuits rather than spray painting graffiti on the wall outside, but It just it just felt right. I launched I launched willakin.com.

Celeste Berke [00:00:38]:
Tell us about your new venture.

Will Aitken [00:00:41]:
I got tired of For point to the mat, you know, done that. For a long time, I've I've I've felt like I could do this by myself, and I didn't because that the ever cooling, that siren sound of Safety of having a job. It's so tempting, especially, I've got a young family, got 2 young kids. I'm the breadwinner in my house. It it it it's so easy to just keep doing what you're doing and get paid for it. But I know that the value I could bring, it will be much more for myself than it would be The salary that I was taking. Right? I'm sure I loved what I was doing. I loved the job I was doing and and the work, and that's that's a position of luxury if you haven't say that, but I just I gotta do it.

Will Aitken [00:01:18]:
You know? I gotta take the risk. I gotta go all in. And even if I fail, which I probably won't because I won't let myself do that, I can say I did it. Right? But I've always had that nag at the back of my head, and it just happened to be the right time. So I went all in, and here we are. And, it's going pretty well so far. I won't lie. I mean, launch week, you're gonna get a bunch of support.

Will Aitken [00:01:34]:
Got a ton of great friends in the space who have all been super supportive. I know it's gonna probably harder from here. Yeah. It's been Overwhelmingly positive so far.

Celeste Berke [00:01:43]:
What's interesting and what I love listeners to take away from this is you put in the reps ahead of time to build your brand, to build your network, to give back, to build in public, to show what you were doing so that when you did take that leap and and this is, like, akin to salespeople is what I'm getting to. Akin akin. To salespeople, you can't just get in the seat and start prospecting and think, look, these are gonna go in. The shooter's mentality. No. You gotta get in the dirty reps, the practice just upfront and build before things stick.

Will Aitken [00:02:22]:
I I think that's that's a really good point. It's something I thought about as well. A lot of Business owners, they go out and they create this idea, and then they go and try and build a brand. What that it it took me 2 years to build this brand. And I grew quicker than most because I did some outrageous stuff and had this very little filter, which people seem to like for some reason. Mostly we don't have as quick of a come up. Right? So, like, if I was stuck my business and didn't have any followers today, I'd be I'd be dead in the water. You know? I'd already have to be looking for a new job With my tail between my legs, obviously, would have made the decision if it didn't have what I have.

Will Aitken [00:02:55]:
But,

Celeste Berke [00:02:55]:
It's tough. Someone asked me that a couple of weeks ago. It was actually Daniel Ryan. He probably know Daniel from aligned. So

Will Aitken [00:03:04]:
Nice.

Celeste Berke [00:03:05]:
He was saying, this is so hard for you to build a pipeline because I self source. I was that person for 20 years in corporate. Never thought about my personal brand. I knew everybody in the industry, but not online. And 3 years ago, having to start at 1500 connections on LinkedIn and start building public, This isn't an uphill battle, and he said, what if this doesn't work out? What are you gonna do? And I said, Daniel, there is no it has to. So I will keep going.

Will Aitken [00:03:37]:
Yeah. I I I think that's what you just said is pretty darn true and great for an entrepreneur. It has to. It's like a little chip in your shoulder. Got something to prove. You can't fail. You won't allow yourself to. But I can tell just from the the vibe you give Selassie.

Will Aitken [00:03:52]:
You know? You've got some interest to say that people would wanna listen to. You know what I mean?

Celeste Berke [00:03:56]:
Having female over. I know I don't look it. I'm 44 with a 4 year old. Right? Slaves. Slaves. Corporate after 20 years, and now I'm in my 2nd act, and I

Will Aitken [00:04:11]:
You look like Younger than I do. I'm 29 with a 4 year old.

Celeste Berke [00:04:16]:
You are not 29.

Will Aitken [00:04:18]:
That's what I mean. Yeah. I'm 29. I just I just forgot to moisturize for all those years of sales. They they're not nicer to the to the wrinkles.

Celeste Berke [00:04:28]:
Well and that's what's interesting is This I think as a salesperson, you also have to have a little bit of an the entrepreneurial bug because you are in a little bit of a silo in a sales role. I heard from a huge company the other day. 500 reps on the team, they get no coaching. There is no nothing. They're winging it in the wild, wild west. And if you don't have that little flame inside you that says I'm competitive, I can do this, this month sucked, Next one's gonna be better. This is what I'm building. You just go in and collect your paycheck and waiting for the day that you get axed.

Will Aitken [00:05:04]:
Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:05:04]:
How do you think that entrepreneurial bug served you as a employee, like a traditional w two employee?

Will Aitken [00:05:14]:
It's just total accountability and ownership of everything you do. I kind of hate that word accountability because it's so synonymous with, like, toxic people who just don't recognize that they've got a ton of privilege. Like, Me go out there and be like, no excuses. I'm a posh British tool, handsome, very handsome white dude. Come on. Like, I can't go out there and be like, You're just making excuses, people. But at the same time, like, in sales that you do need a level of accountability to say, like, I don't want to rely on. I don't want to rely on marketing.

Will Aitken [00:05:42]:
I'm going to go get my own pipeline. I'm going to say, even though that deal wasn't my fault, I lost it. What could I have done differently so I can learn from that next time? You need that. Otherwise, you would just sit there, like, going, oh, it's not fair. I sound like one of those toxic assholes on, like, TikTok, like, the the Won't name anyone, but, like, the the car sales dudes who, like but at the same time, you do need a little bit of that because, otherwise, you will just end up in this wallowing pit of self to bear despair, which isn't a fun place to be. I've been there. I've I I I was there for many years before I got good, before I read gap sell. I remember I was in sales, and I was I was working at this company, and I had the worst territory objectively the worst territory.

Will Aitken [00:06:22]:
I know this because I've measured it. I took a business case to my manager. Like, look at my bad territory. And all these other reps were up for me and me, but I was so focused on what they had and what I didn't. I wasn't even focusing what I was bringing to the role anymore, which was very not enough. Wasn't looking at what I was doing to learn on the side, what I could do to make the most of my territory, what what people with similar territories was doing to still win. I was so focused on what I didn't have. I was Completely blinds to the fact that I was not focusing on what I could do.

Will Aitken [00:06:49]:
And then I was like, okay. Well, if I work for a different company, it'll be different. And I went into the interview process with a company, and they were like, well, we're looking for someone who's got a sales process. So I Googled sales process, and I, like, read it out on the interview. Like, yeah. I do Discovery, which I didn't do. And I and then I do a, demo call after that, and they're like, oh, that's great. Then I asked them, what resources does your team really love? They're like gap selling.

Will Aitken [00:07:13]:
So I knew I had 1 week between the 1st interview and the 2nd interview. I had to finish gap selling so I could keep pretending that I knew what I was doing I could get this job because the job was the problem. But luckily, in the process of doing that, I got that job. And when I got there, I got great coaching and applied a lot of the stuff that I from from reading that book in a week and then reading it again. And my manager was both trained and and and believed in gaps on methodologies and a couple of things as well. And Then everything got better, and I realized, oh my gosh. I was the problem the whole time. I just didn't you know, like, it was the product that I was selling.

Celeste Berke [00:07:46]:
Taylor Swift wrote about. Right?

Will Aitken [00:07:48]:
It's me. I'm the problem. It's me. Right? But, like, it took me so long to catch that point. I just wish I had known that early because the moment It will start to make sense. It will start to becoming easier and actually a lot more fun as well. Instead of wallowing and clocking off and doing the bare minimum, I was excited to go to work. I was Excited, talked to Claude.

Will Aitken [00:08:07]:
I was excited to to reach out and prospect and and meet new people and keep learning. And then and then one day I asked for a promotion, and I didn't get one, so I I acted like a toddler and went and became a content marketer instead. Boo. But here I am. I got it. Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:08:22]:
But I

Will Aitken [00:08:23]:
thought I

Celeste Berke [00:08:23]:
did sales. Here you are. Hold on.

Will Aitken [00:08:25]:
Let's do it.

Celeste Berke [00:08:26]:
Right? Taking every and that's what I love. So I'm all about people who are real and authentic and are like, hey. This shit sucks, and it's gonna be tough. And this is what Rachel why I love Rachel May. She has been, like, the hardest female coach boss that I've ever had, And I always looked at it as, like, it's them. They're so mean. And this time around at age 44, I'm like, Oh, she sees my area of opportunity, which is why she's pushing on me so hard. It's why these conversations are so difficult, but I'm learning so much.

Celeste Berke [00:09:03]:
And it is that simple shift of not why why me to the why not me. I can do this because there's something inside of me. And maybe it's, like ADD or ADHD or competitive drive or we have It's

Will Aitken [00:09:18]:
definitely ADHD. I can see it in you. I I think that's also, like, a good thing as, like, a superpower because my dad has that. Like, if you saw me and him, he'd be like, like, what's that? What's that? You know, like, in public. Like, woah. It's a it's a bird. You know? Like, it's still, like, concept of but in a way is is like a superpower. I always find, like, people who are like that, they managed to make it work.

Will Aitken [00:09:35]:
And, obviously, you've been doing that for such a long time That you've made it something that you can turn into goodness. And I said the same thing about anxiety as well.

Celeste Berke [00:09:43]:
Oh, I love

Will Aitken [00:09:44]:
Even though I definitely have had, like, crippling anxiety, A certain level anxiety is a really good thing because if you don't have anxiety, just think about this. Not having anxiety is like not worrying. Right? You would have no drive. Yeah. You're always worried to move.

Celeste Berke [00:09:57]:
Of the, like

Will Aitken [00:09:59]:
If I don't do this, then it's like you need obviously, too much can become too much. That's right.

Celeste Berke [00:10:03]:
Oh, and the

Will Aitken [00:10:03]:
But it's still the amount.

Celeste Berke [00:10:05]:
Is not fun. It is not fun.

Will Aitken [00:10:07]:
No. You'd

Celeste Berke [00:10:07]:
be like No.

Will Aitken [00:10:08]:
No. No.

Celeste Berke [00:10:08]:
Bag, and you're like, this is death. This is what death feels like.

Will Aitken [00:10:11]:
Touching touching, like, ice face. Come on. Wake up. It's okay. Touch touch touch something solid. You know?

Celeste Berke [00:10:17]:
Laying on a cold bathroom Laura, getting as close to the earth as he can during a panic attack has been marvelous.

Will Aitken [00:10:23]:
In the in the shower, just sound on the floor like

Celeste Berke [00:10:27]:
But as is a

Will Aitken [00:10:28]:
describing me at a conference. 3 days.

Celeste Berke [00:10:31]:
Panic attacks suck. But I agree. That tiny little bit of the, like, the the buzz of anxiety keeps you going. And I'm sure your kids love it too because you're probably so much fun.

Will Aitken [00:10:41]:
Yeah. I I can see it in my son as well. He's he's definitely got a little bit of whatever I have. As I said, I can see it most with my father. He used to he would still is probably a big role role role role role role model for me Because he's just always going. What makes him interested? What makes him fun at a party? What makes him a great business owner? And for so long, I looked up to him. And then recently, he came over, and he was like, Will, you do realize you I almost felt guilty that I I wasn't more successful. He said, Will, you do realize you make more than me now? And I was like, Well, dad.

Will Aitken [00:11:15]:
Yes. Screw you, dad. No. But, like, it was like a moment, like, I was like, woah. And, like, I don't know. For so long, I felt guilty that I hadn't been more successful because all the things he did for me and the way he set me up live and stuff. And then I hearing that, I was like, oh. Yeah.

Will Aitken [00:11:30]:
But now what?

Celeste Berke [00:11:31]:
I'm staying seas with you, my dad. My dad's 78, so, like, a lot older than your father. But he's still, like, go go go go go. Works full time, runs a $10,000,000 business that he built from scratch 40 years ago. He does Ironman. He teaches spin class 2 days a week. He's a master swimmer, he's written 3 books. He's just, like

Will Aitken [00:11:51]:
Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:11:51]:
Set the bar.

Will Aitken [00:11:52]:
He's written 3 books? What on?

Celeste Berke [00:11:54]:
Well, he wants me to teach him how to I do a podcast, so that's coming when he comes in 2 weeks. Pay it.

Will Aitken [00:11:59]:
I'll teach him how to use the script.

Celeste Berke [00:12:03]:
Tales my patients told me, so it'll be, like, stories over the years.

Will Aitken [00:12:08]:
Is he a doctor? Mhmm. Wow.

Celeste Berke [00:12:09]:
Yeah. Physician. And another one was He lived in Africa for 3 years, worked for the Canadian government. He's Canadian. So he has pictures and short stories that go along with that. And another one is, Like, short stories about his one of his grandchild's, like, doll, I think. I haven't read it. I'm getting it for Christmas, so we'll see.

Celeste Berke [00:12:31]:
But He's a great storyteller in that he's a couple of that as well. Great salesperson by default. I feel like people who are great storytellers because this what what happens in content, you tell a great story and it leads people down a path.

Will Aitken [00:12:50]:
I don't know. People ask me stuff about content, and there's a reason I didn't start a content business. I started a sales business. Right? And that's because, like, well, what do you do content consulting? Why do you teach companies how to make great content? I'm like because I don't know how. I just showed up online and decided that I haven't posted anything, And that worked. That doesn't mean I can tell everyone to. That that's not like a a universal way to grow. And the reason I made the concept was because I had a passion for the thing I was talking about.

Will Aitken [00:13:15]:
It's sales. I wouldn't have gone and done the role if Lavender was a selling to marketers company. Because I don't care about marketing. I care about sales. That's what's interesting to me. So it's fascinating. That's what keeps me, like, going, like, that's so interesting. There's a reason I will not become a a content Content person.

Will Aitken [00:13:33]:
I've noticed this trend in life. There's these people who became successful telling other people how to be successful, And I don't think that counts. Honestly, I'm getting a little bit closer a little bit meta here. But, like, If you can only be successful teaching other people how to be successful, then those people can only get successful by doing the same thing you did. They can only be so many success coaches out there. Alright. And in the same way, if I was a content creator teaching other people how to create great content, then it doesn't count, If you know what I mean. I don't think that counts.

Will Aitken [00:14:07]:
It's like I I'm trying to

Celeste Berke [00:14:10]:
It's like a doctor never practicing and teaching other doctors how to be a doctor, you're not in the seat. You don't have hands on the patient. You don't know what it feels like for, like, a pregnant woman's belly or, or, like, the The throat, right, the the glands that are swollen, because I just know how to teach being a doctor.

Will Aitken [00:14:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. If that doctor had never been a doctor, it doesn't count. Right. They don't have the credentials to teach our people to help be adopted. And this is, like, part of my impost syndrome, I suppose, as well. I haven't sold for 2 years now.

Will Aitken [00:14:38]:
I need to get back in that seat, make sure I'm still practicing about when I need to keep touching these things. And, yes, there is a certain element of entrepreneurship, which is gonna be sales. Right? You know this. You've closed you talk to them, you still do the discovery process. You still get You

Celeste Berke [00:14:51]:
still do deals.

Will Aitken [00:14:52]:
Yeah. And that's what that is what I need to do more, but I'm wondering even more of that. I'm gonna Cold calling, like, open to watch me f up. It's gonna be brutal. It's gonna be even more anxiety inducing than normal cold calling because I'm gonna have an audience watching me, And I'm will it I don't care if I fail because it's real and it shows that it's not just tell it's not just telling, it's showing as well and it's anyway. But both I made some cold calls the other day, and I've kind of missed this adrenaline. It's crazy because I do not enjoy cold call, and I hate it. It's horrible.

Will Aitken [00:15:21]:
And let's be real. Anyone who tells you That they do or is he the lion or, like, cuckoo. But but I did it, and it gave me a feeling I haven't had in so long of, like, It it feels good to have butterflies about something. It feels good to be nervous about something. That's a good thing to have. Because if you don't do that if you never have that, You're not telling yourself. The same thing happened when I did public speaking as well. That's why I love doing that as well.

Will Aitken [00:15:44]:
That feeling for you on stage where you

Celeste Berke [00:15:45]:
Oh, jeez. You're like, I'm gonna die. I feel sick. Yeah. That's good. Right? Am I talking about? I forgotten everything I've ever learned. I can't know where to

Will Aitken [00:15:53]:
come from. Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:15:54]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Will Aitken [00:15:55]:
It makes you feel alive, though. Right? Like, that's what it that like, without that feeling, then life would be kinda boring. And I realized that I haven't had that feeling in so long when I started making cold calls a couple weeks And I was like, oh, I need to do this more. Yeah. I need to do 5 4 more more things that made me feel this uneasy, sweaty, clammy hands because

Celeste Berke [00:16:12]:
I get it. I get it. Rachel and I Did some cold calling. She was via Zoom yesterday, and you're like, but it is it is what it is if you're not practicing. And that's something that, you know, I love. Like I was saying, people who are real and authentic, who have time in the seat. I moonlight as helping some companies with their online Branding as well as helping our sales team learn how to prospect on LinkedIn. That's what I started doing.

Celeste Berke [00:16:44]:
I get asked to speak about it, do workshops. But this summer, when I stepped on stage in front of 350 people, immediate was like, I'm a little kid. I don't know what I'm doing. How am I here? How am I I only have this conference of 3,000 people. So I don't think that ever goes away, but the the awesome part is People see you every day online doing the craft. So you're not just teaching about it. You're actually doing it, and you're sharing the Missus as well as the winds. And that's a huge part of, I think, people that Can resonate with others who are real in the sales seat.

Celeste Berke [00:17:24]:
Like, are you doing it too? And that's a huge miss from sales organizations who have VPs and CROs were so far removed from what happened from day to day. Yeah. Just close more deals.

Will Aitken [00:17:37]:
Yes. Because more deals, do more calls, make more calls, make more send more emails, have more discovery calls, just talk to more customers. It will all get better.

Celeste Berke [00:17:43]:
So I'm I'm curious

Will Aitken [00:17:45]:
like drowning.

Celeste Berke [00:17:46]:
Why you said you love sales. This is your superpower. Why launch this prospecting like that? Why is that your arena?

Will Aitken [00:17:59]:
Why the prospecting thing? Mhmm. I mean, honestly, I I would like to talk about all aspects of sales, but And, you know, I I told you about this before we hit record today. I don't feel comfortable. I have what I would consider original ideas when it comes to prospect. Or at least I have enough experience or enough of of listened and Heard and been taught by enough variety of people that have been able to perform a unique perspective of some kind. I believe what I have to say about prospecting And how to make a coke win, how to send an email, and the focus of all these things, and how you bring that all together in a message that actually resonates, gets people going from I'm not looking To hang on a second. This sounds interesting. I know I have something there that I can say is is mine and it's unique.

Will Aitken [00:18:50]:
If I was to try and go and do a discovery workshop right now, I feel like it would be too close to say that isn't mine, and I need to still find that. And I'm not sure how that happens, but What I would end up doing is just teaching cap songs to people or a crap version of it because I've only you know, I've never been taught by Kean, and I've read his book 6 times. I've had Sandler training, which has some parallels at least, but but, like, then I'm only gonna be teaching Sandler's people. Right? And at which point they could probably get it for much less from a franchise near them. You know what I'm saying? So, like, I have I call imposter syndrome or maybe a moral compass that says I cannot I'm not I shouldn't do that Until I have a good reason to do that. So for now

Celeste Berke [00:19:35]:
Or you're building it in stages.

Will Aitken [00:19:37]:
Or I'm building in stages. Yeah. I think a lot of people try to do too much as well. If I can if I can nail this 1st part and I can show that I can I can sell it and I can get demand and people want it and people care about it And people say this was amazing, then that gives me more confidence to do more of it? And that's maybe when I branch out to more things. But for now, I think I think there's a real problem out there. I mean, I I feel I feel like a lot of the like, the the the SDR, BDR model for a lot of outbound teams, a lot of account now going full cycle that no. I'm really get to that well. We get so tied up in this this vacuum chamber of LinkedIn, this echo chamber, should I call it, it's a vacuum, Well, we assume everyone knows the basics that not to write long ass emails that are full of pitchy language, talking about their solution, how innovative it is, and How it's gonna 8 times their pipeline or whatever their result.

Will Aitken [00:20:30]:
You know? But then you realize that's, like, A tiny fraction, like the smallest fraction of all the people out there who are actually selling. And it's like normal it's actually quite a quite a good Fraction. Generally, people who are on LinkedIn, people are probably looking for more place to learn and probably already know. And then you go into a sales team And you look at their emails, and it's like, oh, how did this happen? And it's because I believe that, like, the people at the Tom, don't realize this. Intuitively, when you start in sales and you don't get from the guidance, I told you about my experience in sales when I was making all excuses and blame my territory. I was making all these mistakes. Intuitively, you think you're meant to show up and pitch. You think you're meant to show up and be polite and say that I hope they find you well and ask are you at the start of your cold calls and

Celeste Berke [00:21:16]:
Right.

Will Aitken [00:21:16]:
And b, like weather. And make it and make your things sound good. You know? Like, That that's that's what we assume. Like, I don't know what it's a stereotypes or the way we're raised or just like what we think sales is. People just go that's their default. And you need to have someone come along sometimes and just go, no. Like, I had that, like, blindfolded for me when I actually finally got good training and and sales start becoming fun and Lots of just like a grind and just doing tons of this. Once I'd start having a process and doing things the right way and asking the right questions and knowing why People show interest in why people buy and why they don't buy.

Will Aitken [00:21:51]:
If you don't know any of that, then you just just have to kinda wing it and wing it often is just Awful.

Celeste Berke [00:21:57]:
Yeah. And I and I'm seeing that with teams too. It it stinks from the get go of everything, and I think there's this real opportunity for change right now as baby boomers I hate to say it, as baby boomers exit and New leadership comes into place. We can't continue to do what we've done. You know? The early sales training that I got when I was 27 was definitely banned, and it still freaking exists because my husband showed it

Will Aitken [00:22:24]:
to me

Celeste Berke [00:22:25]:
the other day. Here is your qualification checklist. Are the questions that you need to ask on the 1st freaking call, and I remember that from 15, 16, 17 years ago. Cringey. I believe we're still in this place of order

Will Aitken [00:22:38]:
We assume that people know this by now. But, yeah, you and I know it, and half the people connected on LinkedIn and you follow me on LinkedIn know it. But that's, like, 40,000 people. There's, like, a 1000000, millions of other people out there who aren't part of that, who don't know that yet, who haven't been shaking like, no. Stop asking them if they have the timeline, budget, and authority to buy. What are you doing? You know?

Celeste Berke [00:23:00]:
Or, like, what is your what is your role? How big is your team? Like, All the things that you can educate yourself on. Ahead of time, I had a rep at a huge company tell me the other day They don't have enough questions to ask to fill up 15 minutes of a discovery call. And I said, okay. Okay. I mean, Our discoveries are usually 2 or 3 calls. Right? I I'm so confused. What are you focusing on? And, again, very. No.

Celeste Berke [00:23:27]:
They don't record their sales calls. Nobody's listening to them. They're not getting any training. How do we break this? Because it is still out there, and this is why buyers will say, I prefer a rep free experience.

Will Aitken [00:23:41]:
Yeah. Of course, they will. Because they jump on a call of an SEO goes, Celeste, do you have the budget for this product? They're like, I I don't I I don't know how much it cost. Can you tell me? No. No. No. You get that later. Do you have the need for this? I I think so.

Will Aitken [00:23:59]:
What I wanna find out. Can I have a demo? Yeah. Sure. Sure. That comes later after this call and then a discovery. And do you have a timeline? Yeah. Soon, ideally, less than 2 calls from yeah. Okay.

Will Aitken [00:24:11]:
Alright. Cool. Alright. I don't think you're qualified, so I'm not gonna introduce you to an account executive. Course Buyers don't want that. Who would would want that? I believe that sales best practices when done wrong are bad practice. So a lot of what you teach, a lot of what Kean talks about, a lot of gaps and a lot of Selling good. Solution selling, let's just call as a branch umbrella because there's a lot of ways to sell better than that Yeah.

Will Aitken [00:24:33]:
Is asking questions. Right? But if you just heard ask questions is how you better go to sales, if you ask the wrong questions, then you're actually gonna be probably worse off than just giving the buyer everything they want and just showing a demo. You're asking bad questions, like, you just kinda annoy people. I believe that every sales best practice when done the wrong way is, like, the worst thing you can do. But I think about, like, Challenging your bias. That's quite when you do that the wrong way and just tell people they're wrong, you just are, like, basically being an arrogant douche. Alright. But when you do it the right way, you can actually change people's perspective and move their criteria from silly things that they they should be on.

Will Aitken [00:25:09]:
But When you do it the wrong way, you just seem like an asshole who who who thinks they know better than a c level executive when realistically you're just a rent sales rep who's probably not in quotes. Right? Like

Celeste Berke [00:25:21]:
Who ideally do you want to work with? If you could have your pick.

Will Aitken [00:25:26]:
What's your

Celeste Berke [00:25:26]:
Who is an ideal customer Company that you wanna go in there and change that behavior.

Will Aitken [00:25:46]:
I'd tell anyone who who has a natural solution rather than a commodity. I think there's a category of people out there who think they sell commodity, but don't realize they don't. I think I talked these people, and they're like, well, well, we don't sell this software that changes the way people do it there. Because I just sell A piece of machinery that goes in that machine that buyers look at the line item, which you're trying to get the best deal for. I'm like, that can still be something. Then you can still be a solution if you know what the problem is because everything, every solution Has a problem that and and people just don't realize it without flipping on its head. The moment I start saying this makes you faster, I'm basically saying you're doing it too slowly today, and that's the problem. And I don't think people would think about that enough.

Will Aitken [00:26:36]:
I I was talking to someone the other day who does outsourced developers in Colombia. They're like, well, I've got a commodity solution. There's there's so many people reaching out to people about Outsource developers. Okay. What do you do differently? And they're like, well, we we provide convenient, well educated, and affordable Developers, I'm like, okay. Slow down. You've almost said it. You you're so close.

Will Aitken [00:26:59]:
You're this close. Affordable. So what's the problem that solves? The fact that our staff today, expensive as heck. You hire the wrong one, even more expensive. Convenient, what's wrong does that solve? The fact that it's really hard to find good developers these days, even harder if you hire the wrong one. And all this time, every moment they're not hiring a developer For a founder who's trying to scale a star or get some funding or has just got some funding, they're they're burning money all that time. And they're like, well educated. Okay.

Will Aitken [00:27:32]:
So what's the problem with themselves? Like like, they're so close to it, but they're so focused on, like, what's good about it. They don't realize that there's There's there's there's what's wrong with the way that people are doing it today? And that person thought they had a commodity situation when I told them that, like, fireworks were like, oh,

Celeste Berke [00:27:46]:
fuck. Like, questioning my whole life right now.

Will Aitken [00:27:48]:
Yeah. Like like, he was, like, show shocked. I was like, because I get those emails about outsourced developers in in in Colombia. And I've never seen one that said, hey. I noticed that you're a founder. A lot of founders struggle with, like, Trying to find people like, trying to find the right people. They know it's too expensive to hire a developer, but they're worried that when they hire someone from Colombia, they're gonna be rubbish. But, again, the educated part.

Will Aitken [00:28:16]:
Right? So, like, that's when you start to find these problems and solutions. And in prospecting, you can only assume when you get to the discovery, the demo, and everything like that, we ask real good questions to uncover for the prospecting, you have to make a hypothesis. That's kind of what I'm trying to teach people now.

Celeste Berke [00:28:29]:
Love that. I'm I'm super sick excited to support you. I know that our team is a huge fan of you, not only on your online persona, but that you've arrived at this place of trying to be a change agent of bad behavior. And like you said, it's not a process. Like, if a coach teaches you how to run a 5 k and they tell you to turn your feet out and you're running with your feet out the whole time. You're not improving, but you still think you're doing the work and you're checking off the box. You're not going to get to that end result because you're probably gonna end up in pain and you're gonna hurt yourself and you're gonna I have poor form, all that stuff. So doing it poorly is probably worse than doing nothing at all, but you're taking this huge risk on yourself in order to amplify this cry for help that is out there that we have to change What we are doing because it something really bad is going to happen.

Celeste Berke [00:29:29]:
There's going to be a breaking point with companies where

Will Aitken [00:29:34]:
would argue it's already been happening for some time now. The one thing I will say that's very frustrating, in this past couple weeks, I've realized how little A lot of folks actually care about their job doing it well. How

Celeste Berke [00:29:48]:
A little bit louder for those in the back.

Will Aitken [00:29:51]:
Like, I am shocked that like, they don't I I don't know if it's checked out or burned out or what it might be, But, like, people

Celeste Berke [00:30:01]:
I think it's also the lack of lack of consequence is what I'm finding.

Will Aitken [00:30:07]:
The the consequence are here. We're seeing that. We're seeing these these these teams, these huge layoffs, these people missing targets.

Celeste Berke [00:30:12]:
Right. But the people who are

Will Aitken [00:30:14]:
okay to fail.

Celeste Berke [00:30:15]:
The people are getting laid off are the people who are doing the day to day. Right? There's

Will Aitken [00:30:20]:
Yeah. The ICs.

Celeste Berke [00:30:21]:
Correct. So when when we're talking, and I've Seen it a lot, especially since is team's win rate of, like, 10%, whatever, 20% on inbound, right, a close rate, decline in sales, weak pipeline. Like, all of these indicators discount 1 company discounting a 100% of the time at 50%. I'm like, why? But there's no

Will Aitken [00:30:46]:
There's no shame.

Celeste Berke [00:30:47]:
There's no repercussion. I'm like, you're going to miss your target by 5,000,000 this year. And then and you're increasing by 40% next year, like, on this trajectory. And they're just like, I'll keep going. Like It's I'm just finding it before.

Will Aitken [00:31:01]:
Like, there's no shame to it, and I think it's because it's become the norm. Okay. Everyone everyone's failing. Alright? It's not just me. If everyone's failing, it's alright. It's kinda like when you're in the test and you're like, oh, I got a 50, but don't worry.

Celeste Berke [00:31:14]:
There'll be a curve.

Will Aitken [00:31:15]:
Bob over there got 44, so

Celeste Berke [00:31:17]:
I Yeah.

Will Aitken [00:31:17]:
I'm not lost.

Celeste Berke [00:31:18]:
And they'll probably be, like, a curve. So really I got, like, a 90.

Will Aitken [00:31:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's on a curve. Everyone's failed except for, you know, the 1 person who's actually doing things right over there. And you're like, well, they're just they're just lucky. No. Come on. Be accountable.

Will Aitken [00:31:34]:
Be ashamed. Want to do better. Own your stuff. The things we spoke about earlier, we have to own it at every level of the way. If you're a sales rep, if you're a sales leader, if you're a company founder. You're an owner. Even if you work in marketing

Celeste Berke [00:31:49]:
Even if you're a

Will Aitken [00:31:50]:
you need to own it.

Celeste Berke [00:31:51]:
Or a board member.

Will Aitken [00:31:54]:
Own it like it's your house. You would be ashamed if your house had windows falling off and, like, it was cold inside, and your kids were shivering themselves to sleep. This is your life. This is your thing. Own it. Make it yours. Be proud of it.

Celeste Berke [00:32:09]:
This is where I take my yeti and I just drop There. See? 1 of my awards fell.

Will Aitken [00:32:20]:
More energy drinks.

Celeste Berke [00:32:22]:
Last question, because this has been awesome, and I know with that we've gone over is

Will Aitken [00:32:28]:
Quite right.

Celeste Berke [00:32:29]:
One sales myth You want to bust.

Will Aitken [00:32:43]:
I don't wanna upset you.

Celeste Berke [00:32:45]:
Go ahead.

Will Aitken [00:32:47]:
Alright. I believe that there is Because of the bad work the other sellers have done, those things we mentioned earlier, the banks, the crappy processes that Completely make buyers feel like they hate sales. People never wanna talk to them. I believe there is a now a a a duty for a lot of sales reps to to give In order to get. And I feel like this can smooth things over in a way that that shows people that you're not like those other people. And and you can ask great questions. Sure. You can be informed, and you can have a hypothesis.

Will Aitken [00:33:21]:
You can you can you can know the root causes and impacts of their problems. But I believe that you can show someone a product on the 1st call and not mess up your entire sales cycle. And in fact, doing so can speed up your entire sales cycle because even when you gaps out perfectly And you uncover this massive problem, this root cause, and you know the root cause is so that your solution can come in and is, like, designed to solve. And the impact is so big that they cannot possibly not change and they will need to buy. And and and the status quo cannot go on any longer, and you've done all your great work. You uncovered that. Because of the size of buying teams and the risk aversion, the fact that 10 people need to be involved in, like, every sale even when it's, like, a 5 figure deal. Right? Like, a 10 gauge deal, but, like, don't need to involve ops since, like, guy guys, it's it's $10,000.

Will Aitken [00:34:12]:
Like, I could personally spend $10,000. Like, what your your million you're like a $50,000,000 business why you weren't anyway, regardless, I they they go, okay. This is all great, but before I involve other people in my team, I want to see it myself. And I believe by by by just showing them a little bit of the peak behind the camona. I'm not talking about the whole thing. Yeah. But, like, if they've told you that, hey, my problem is this and this, you just go Screen share. Bang.

Will Aitken [00:34:36]:
Bang. Sound like it solves it? Great. Now we can have a demo, and you can feel comfortable inviting all your team. So sounds fair. Despite the fact what it says in chapter chapter, let me see. Chapter the demo. But it get Page 1, chapter 11 of gaps selling Of my copy that is not signed by Kean. It's signed by Rachel, which I would argue is better.

Will Aitken [00:35:04]:
I I'm okay giving a demo sooner.

Celeste Berke [00:35:07]:
Do you believe If Ken would have said, at times, you can at times, a a Slight peep into the products on the 1st call is warranted. What do people hear? Yes. What do people hear?

Will Aitken [00:35:26]:
They hear Every time.

Celeste Berke [00:35:28]:
I can demo on the 1st demo on the 1st call.

Will Aitken [00:35:30]:
Right? That's permission. Every time. Yes. And this is so very true as well because sales reps who have a process Oh, good. Sales reps who know that their processes is is gonna work most of the time, but there are times we have to go off process, those are the folks who win. The folks who know

Celeste Berke [00:35:46]:
Yes.

Will Aitken [00:35:47]:
It's not a one size fits all, and sometimes you deal with someone who's come on, who is angry, who is being treat like that, and is like, And you need to you need to sometimes mirror them where they're at a little bit to match them where they're at. And that that's that's, I think Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:36:00]:
Affecting. I think the dip the differentiation is This is talking about establishing a behavior, a foundation that can then be grown from because what we've seen and and I'm sure with your clients as Well, it is you you gotta start with the crawl. Right? And you're talking about individuals who are walking and running who can Yes. In and out of that. And absolutely, I remember going through my training and seeing an a the AE that we had at the time on a on a discovery call. Say, Keenan's gonna kill me for this, and he showed something in relation to the conversation, and it was totally appropriate. But you're talking about someone who is it is this at an elevated status Yeah. With their skill set.

Celeste Berke [00:36:48]:
So I While I understand that myth, I'm I'm in support with the caveat of

Will Aitken [00:36:56]:
Yeah. There there's a book out there, and and we're gonna finish off this be the finishing note because we're way over. But I had so much fun to last, so thanks so much. Alright.

Celeste Berke [00:37:03]:
So, I mean, you're just, like,

Will Aitken [00:37:05]:
I just have so much more respect for you now, and I just know you

Celeste Berke [00:37:08]:
do your brain anyway.

Will Aitken [00:37:09]:
But I

Celeste Berke [00:37:10]:
Likewise. Likewise.

Will Aitken [00:37:11]:
I've had so much fun. But there's a book out there that I read last year because I set myself a chance to read, like, 50 sales books. I didn't hit that goal. I read, like, 26, which is still quite a lot and still Reigned supreme. But the point is I read a book, and it was about selling your way. And I think that can be that can be really good advice For those folks who are running, I do believe that when you start, you need to have that, like, those those rails to learn. You you earn that right To know when the process is broken. When you start, if you if you are to find against the people who are trying to teach you and do know what's best for you, assuming they do know what's best for you because man, just don't.

Will Aitken [00:37:50]:
Let's be real. By being a pain in the butt and going, I know better. Oh, no. I'm gonna sell my way. You're actually hurting yourself. But once you've earned that right passage, I think that's when you start to see, okay. I've been here before, and I know what mistake I made last time, so now I'm gonna

Celeste Berke [00:38:03]:
Yeah. Agree. Agree. It's time in the seat. It's like a parent when your child begins to walk and you're there with, like, the hands hovering a little bit. Right? Like, I got these guardrails up, and Then you ease into a little bit, and they start to move on on their own. Have you read have you read this?

Will Aitken [00:38:23]:
The Dip by Seth Godin. No. I have read a couple of Seth Godin.

Celeste Berke [00:38:26]:
But look how little it is.

Will Aitken [00:38:28]:
So small. Such a little book.

Celeste Berke [00:38:30]:
Oh, good.

Will Aitken [00:38:31]:
If I had have read a if I had just read books that size last year, I would've hit my goal. But every now and again, the one just hits you at 550 pages.

Celeste Berke [00:38:37]:
No. This is, like

Will Aitken [00:38:38]:
Dale Dale Carnegie likes to use the words from 18th century as well.

Celeste Berke [00:38:42]:
No. 70

Will Aitken [00:38:42]:
came for

Celeste Berke [00:38:43]:
reading well. 5. But I think you and I have been at this time. Right? You're at this dip this point where you want to give up, and it's like, This is this is when it starts to get good. So every year, this is a good little reminder of, like, don't don't give up. This is the cliff. Like, you're

Will Aitken [00:39:01]:
quiet right now.

Celeste Berke [00:39:01]:
You're almost there. But I do love that. Selling your way. Thank you. Thank you.

Will Aitken [00:39:05]:
Yeah. Okay. I I think it's a good book for experienced sellers, but I do would not recommend it to a new seller because they would get totally the wrong idea. That one is sell without selling out by, Andy Paul.

Celeste Berke [00:39:14]:
Okay. Oh, Andy Paul. Yeah.

Will Aitken [00:39:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. You know.

Celeste Berke [00:39:19]:
So

Will Aitken [00:39:19]:
that was the name of the podcast guy.

Celeste Berke [00:39:21]:
We've reached a couple of messages.

Will Aitken [00:39:24]:
I read that. I found myself nodding along going, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But if I had given this book to me 2 years ago, you would have screwed me big time. You know what I mean? It's a book for someone who Who has earned the right to to to to to to have autonomy, I guess.

Celeste Berke [00:39:41]:
I love that. Well, tell us a little one synopsis. Where can people find you? What are what are you currently offering? Will Aiken dot

Will Aitken [00:39:53]:
Oh, sorry. This is by yourself. Okay. Yeah. So my name is Will Aiken. You can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on TikTok If you're onto into that, you find me on YouTube these days making woodworking projects, nothing to do with sales.

Celeste Berke [00:40:03]:
I saw the desk.

Will Aitken [00:40:04]:
Will. I saw him. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Still here, and it's it's still 1 piece and still flat, which is better than anything else I've made out of wood. My coffee table upstairs is, like, Warped in this holes and the the wood for anyway. But it's Will Aitken.

Will Aitken [00:40:18]:
That's a I t k e n. It's not Atkins. If you call me Will Atkins, I will I will be personally offended. So there you go.

Celeste Berke [00:40:25]:
And And

Will Aitken [00:40:26]:
also you go to willakin.com Yes. And buy some some good merch. If you're on YouTube right now, look at this.

Celeste Berke [00:40:31]:
Email finds you well.

Will Aitken [00:40:33]:
I hope this email finds you well, plus a myriad of other silly tales T shirts.

Celeste Berke [00:40:37]:
Well, I loved it. Thank you so much for our time together. Individuals Can find you online, follow along with content, and also stay tuned for what you are about to do in 2024, which is give us a little peek behind the curtain, the day in the life of a founder led founder led sales. Right? And what it's like to hear those noes, be hung up on, but also share some wins and funny accolades along the the way. So thank you so much. It's been a pleasure sharing and learning about your journey. We will see you on LinkedIn.

Will Aitken [00:41:09]:
Thank you.