Is Community the Future of Brands? - Teacher: Mark W. Schaefer

ften we feel when we put content on social media it's like throwing a bottle into the ocean. We don't know if people are going to see it or not. But at its best, we can create reach through social media that will bring people to our content and hopefully they'll subscribe to it. That's a higher emotional connection because now people in a virtual way have raised their hand and said, I love what you're doing.

I want to hear more. 

This is Mark Schaefer, a globally recognized author, keynote speaker, futurist, and business consultant who authors one of the top five marketing blogs in the world. Mark has written 10 bestselling books, has served global clients including Pfizer, Cisco, Dell, Adidas, and the U. S. Air Force, and has become one of the global authorities on all things marketing.

And on this episode of Useful Content, Mark and I are going to talk about brand building and community and his latest book, Belonging to the Brand. Why community is the last great marketing strategy. We talk about how building a brand can draw community towards you. 

Oreo is the most popular cookie in the world, but it's a copycat. There was an original brand a hundred years ago called Hydrox It's still kind of around. Oreo literally copied it! But nobody's heard of Hydrox because Oreo has built a brand. 

Three ways in which building a community can benefit your company brand.

When people become friends in a community, that emotion and goodwill transfers to the brand. It's the highest emotional connection possible. And yet most companies aren't really exploring that. 

And we get a unique insight into how Mark successfully runs his own online community. 

the goal of my leadership in my community is there's really three things. Number one, 

Let's make useful content. 

Hello and welcome to useful content. And today we have a community building teacher, in our useful content classroom. Mark Schaefer, welcome, Mark,

I am delighted to be with you. You and I have sort of circled each other on social media for a long time, so I'm glad that we're meeting face to face here today.

Mark, you have been quite influential in my developmental process. I've read or listened to, cause I do audio books a lot of times, at least three of your books, and I'm kind of in the middle of getting through belonging to the brand, which we are talking about today. But before we dive into that, could you share with the people a little bit about who you are and how you help your community and your clients make useful content?

Sure. Well, uh, I spent most of my career in in the corporate world and really was a bit of a digital pioneer in the early days of of the Internet. And, uh, about 15 or 16 years ago, I started my own company. and started to blog and the blog sort of got some attention and that led to me writing books. I've now written 10 books and uh, the success of the books led to speaking.

That's where I make most of my money today and I've also done consulting, continue to do consulting and I teach at Rutgers University. In terms of My contribution to helping people create content, you know, I think hopefully I set a good example where I think I'm, I'm, I'm bold. My definition of bold is, um, is that I'm honest.

Uh, and, and courageous because it takes some courage to be honest. I don't really have a specific agenda. I'm not trying to, like, sell people on on anything. So, um, yeah, I try to set a good example through my content. I try to teach through my content and literally I do teach content marketing as a strategy at the university.

I think the way in which you approach how you interact with people is also very encouraging because a lot of times you would find that, um, Uh, people who have accomplished much are very hard to get to, but you've made your, you deliberately made yourself accessible to the people and that quality along coupled with the honest way in which you deliver the thing really is, it stands out, uh, as a differentiator in my mind, because that's one of the things that I. Notice that was different about you, that I could read the book and then I could still come and jump on discord, go on LinkedIn or find you somewhere

and you weren't too hard to get to, which I guess could be a blessing and a curse at times. And what, what, what made you do things like that?

well this is feedback that I get often and I, I think from my perspective, hearing that being kind and being accessible is a point of differentiation. Makes me sad,

Yes.

it's like, okay, so the, you know, the corollary of that is that most people are not kind and accessible and that, that maybe makes me worried. Um, I guess I do take my role. Seriously, that I feel very fortunate that the people listen to me and that I can set a good example that you can have an impact on the world without being mean, without being toxic, um, that you can, you know, try to lift people up and, um, I'm mindful of that.

Uh, I, I consider this just a real gift that, that, you know, I've got this platform where I can set an example and, and people will listen to me. You've 

Yeah. And that is, um, something that's very powerful and you've been building it. Well, I mean, uh, well, of course, you know, kind of tracked you through John Asperian as well, because he was somebody who was also in my circles too. All right. So let's, let's get into talking about belonging to the brand.

Cause I know that's a big deal for you. Community is a big deal for you. Um, belong to the brand is your latest book. I know there's another one in the works somewhere. Um, you 

paying attention to my community.

I haven't paid attention. I

haven't paid attention. Um, so why is community the last greatest marketing strategy? I know you've talked about this often, but tell the people who don't know.

well, I mean, that's a pretty bold statement. I realized that and it's not just a clickbait headline. I really believe this that I mean, community was the first strategy, you know, I, I, I tell a story in the book about how I went into this store that my grandparents shopped at and it's been there since 1903.

And when people come into this store, the, the people behind the counter, they know them. They're friends and, and, and, and everybody's friends are there and they'll go over to a corner and they'll sit and have some coffee with them. And, and as I observed this, I had this deep sadness that I've never experienced that in my entire life.

I've never walked into a store. Where people knew me and cared for me, and I don't think that is that's that's gone away. I think that's embedded in us that not only do we want to belong, we need to belong as part of our psychological health. And this is an opportunity we all have. as individuals, as entrepreneurs, as companies and brands to create an environment where people really belong.

And if you think about it in this way, this is really the only type of marketing people may actually embrace and actually, uh, be attracted to. So I look at the world today. We're in a streaming economy. Traditional advertising doesn't work like it used to. It's not seen like it's like it was what it like it has been.

It's not trusted if people see it. We're in these fragmented media channels. I saw some statistic the other day that said something like there are 70 million creators. That means there are 70 million media channels. Um, but But the fact is it's really, really hard to connect to customers, especially on a meaningful and emotional level.

And I think a brand community is the most overlooked strategy in the history of overlooked strategies because it's not new. It's been there all along, but we haven't really considered it from a brand perspective. 70 percent of the brand communities that are out there today are transactional. It's about You know, uh, helping people, uh, solve their problems.

It's like a customer service thing, which is fine, but they're missing the greater opportunity to really build, uh, a community, which is different than an audience. A lot of people call audience a community, but it's not the same thing. It's, it's, it's, we're missing this opportunity. to build this great emotional connection, which is the goal of branding through a community.

Okay. So, all right. So community exists on one side, we have brand marketing on the other side, and we bringing those two things together to make sure people understand what this is about, let's. And you described something just now that may give them some insight into what a community is, but let me get your core.

When, when you say to yourself, community, what do you actually mean? And then let's define what brand marketing is. So when we merged the two, we know exactly what we're talking about. Cause you define your, your view of community to me.

Yeah. So, so they're really, I mean, two different types of marketing. One is performance marketing, and that's more or less to move volume or drive sales. That would include coupons, pricing, promotion. SEO, uh, now then there's this other type of marketing called brand marketing. And the goal of brand marketing is to create an emotional expectation about you and your brand that differentiates you from your competitors.

So, I mean, one example, I guess that just comes to mind because I was just thinking about this is Oreo cookies. Oreo is the most popular cookie in the world, but it's a copycat. There was an original brand a hundred years ago called Hydrox It's still kind of around. Oreo literally copied it! But nobody's heard of Hydrox because Oreo has built a brand.

So Oreo, they don't have to have coupons and discounts and all the things that Hydrox might have to do to sell cookies because they're known. They're beloved. There's a history there and that's the difference. Now when I talk about a community, what I mean is, so there are three Things that differentiate a community from an audience.

And what I suggest in the book is that there's this emotional continuum. So let's go back to this idea. The goal of branding is to create an emotion, uh, to create meaning between you and me. You, you mentioned early in our show, right? That what I mean to you is that I'm friendly. accessible and I'm an authority and I'm an author.

So that's the meaning I've created with you. I don't have to give you a coupon for you to read my books. You said you've already read a few of my books. You do it because I mean something to you. That's what branding does. Now Let's talk about this emotional continuum. Everybody's on social media but that is really a weak relational link when it comes to emotion that we want to create through branding.

Often we feel when we put content on social media it's like throwing a bottle into the ocean. We don't know if people are going to see it or not. But at its best, we can create reach through social media that will bring people to our content and hopefully they'll subscribe to it. That's a higher emotional connection because now people in a virtual way have raised their hand and said, I love what you're doing.

I want to hear more. And now we have an audience and that's great, but an audience is one way. If I go away, the content goes away, the audience goes away. Now in the ideal setting, we take that audience and create a community. In a community, three things happen. Number one, people know each other. And in that scenario.

When people become friends in a community, that emotion and goodwill transfers to the brand. It's the highest emotional connection possible. And yet most companies aren't really exploring that. Number two, a brand is driven by purpose. There has to be an intersection between what a company wants to do and what its customers want to do.

So if I say, the word Patagonia probably elicits an emotion. You know what Patagonia stands for. It's responsible outdoor recreation. I have a friend, he will only buy Patagonia because he believes so much in what they do. It's not the cheapest brand. It's not the most beautiful brand, but there's meaning there.

He literally belongs to the brand because there's this intersection of purpose. Then the third thing that happens in community is that the people in the community help lead the brand, which is remarkable and, and, and just incredibly important. A brand is some is not something that's stagnant. The goal of a brand is to remain relentlessly relevant to every generation, and a great example of this would be Coca Cola.

This is a product that can never change, right? They tried that once, it didn't work. So they can't change the formula to adjust to the world, so they have to adjust their meaning. to adjust to the world. So how they showed up in the eighties or the nineties is different than how they show up today. And a community could help you do that.

Community can tell you what's going on in our world. They can give you feedback. They can give you direction. So the community help leads the brand. So those are the three distinguishing qualities of a community and how that connects to brand marketing.

Oh, that's great. That's good stuff. That's good insight. Um, by the way, hydrox is a terrible name for a cookie. It's it's really, it sounds like laundry

detusions. it's, it, it, it, it sounds like, um, you know, want to look like a Pikachu character or something, doesn't it? Doesn't it? 

uh, like a 

Collect them all. Go get Hydrox.

go get Hydrax, you're so right, actually, I didn't think of that one. Yes. Um, so, all right, that's, that's good. That's a good, that's a good kind of insights into it. I know you, you mentioned a few things there, which were very insightful. I think, um, one of the things that stands out to me is that you talk about in the book, the redistribution of power. Uh, to the community, right? And you, you kind of touch on that then, but how does that actually work? How do you take as a leader of a community? Cause I know one of the challenges with business owners is that they're running a business. They have to dedicate all this time to actually building their business. And then they have this flourishing community on the other side. Let's suppose it's, it's gaining traction. It's getting more people. So they have to find this balance and inside of that, they're thinking about what kind of, I don't want to lose the people, but at the same time, I want my business to be successful. How do you take that responsibility is on you as a community leader and then give that to the people.

Well, that is, it's a wonderful question because it's something I continue to learn about. Because it's so different leading a community compared to what we learned in college about management and marketing and leadership and management and marketing and leadership is typically about control. It's about, you know, having a controlled message to a defined persona.

It's about controlling the image of the brand. It's about having. Uh, you know, standards, brand standards, right? I mean, when I was in the corporate world, we literally had like a binder, this huge binder about, you know, the colors that we used and the font that we used and all these brand standards. Now you're in a community.

and you really have to give up control and, and, and help you, you want to encourage the people to, to lead and take responsibility for what's happening in the community. Let me give you a little example from my own experience. So I have a community, which you are part of that is dedicated To learning about the future of marketing.

So when I started this community, I thought, well, everybody's going to be interested in what I'm interested in. So I'll have a little room about public speaking and a little room about writing and a little room about personal branding. And today those are the emptiest rooms in the community. And the reason is because people came in and they said, Mark, if we're going to learn about the future of marketing, we need to learn about AI.

And we need to learn about generative art and we need to learn about web three. So they're, they're taking me to new places. They're helping me be more relevant as a teacher, as a writer, as a consultant, as a brand. Think about scaling that to a company. Think about if you have people from all over the world helping you to be relevant.

Isn't that powerful, but you've got to give up control and trust the people. I mean, these are people who love you, right? That's they wouldn't be there if they didn't love you. So it's, it's, it's a, it's really a new mindset and it's something that I'm learning. And, and, and really everybody in a community is, is learning because it's, it's, you know, it's something, you know, this, the, the brand communities are something that probably couldn't have existed even 10 years ago.

So we're all learning how this works.

As a business owner myself, I think that when we set out to build communities is almost like an experiment often,

we have to, and we have to figure it out. Um, one of the things that I have encountered personally is that I started off thinking it would be like this. I gathered a ton of people around me of this type.

And then I realized. Uh, maybe this is not the community I want. Then what do you do at that point? Well, how do you then switch up at that point?

well, what I tried to do. So, so I think the goal of my leadership in my community is there's really three things. Number one, I need to make it safe. If it's not safe, then, you know, people are going to go away. They're going to be disappointed. Um, number two, I need to dispense status. I need, I need people to know that they're valued there, that they're heard and they're, that they're acknowledged.

If people, when people join a community, they want to, they want to know that they matter. And if they matter, then they'll stay there and they'll, and they'll come back. Then the third thing is, and this is the problem you're hinting at, is you, you, you've, you've sort of got to create the, the riverbanks of the community is, is this, this is where we're going to flow.

So I've had situations in the community, for example, where. Instead of really concentrating on what's new and what's next, which is the goal of the community, people start moving into solving everyday business problems. And if that starts to happen, then the whole community is going to go off the tracks.

So I'll step in and I'll say, this is a great discussion. Thank you for bringing it up. But it's not really why we're here. Maybe you should start your own community if these are the types of conversations that you want to have, because it's valid, but it just doesn't fit here. So that's how I sort of keep things in in the riverbanks, and I mean, things do kind of stray from time to time, um, but that's my job is to kind of keep focused on this is what we're here and I try to set that example by creating content in the community to create experiences in the community that that that focus in that direction.

One of the things I do, for example, is we have these amazing. Guest speakers that are very forward thinking people, you know, we've had, um, you know, Philip Kotler, the father of modern, modern marketing in our community. We had Tom Peters, the all time best selling author in our community. We've had, you know, well known people like Anne Hanley and, you know, and Jay Bear who are in the cutting edge of thinking with their writing in their books.

So that's how I try to keep the momentum going for the purpose of the community.

It seems like what you're saying is that as the community leader, uh, there are two really key things that are important. That you have to keep the purpose before the people, like make sure they're focused on this particular thing. But also you have to define and foster the culture of the community,

Yes, 

in people enter. Interact around the purpose of it. What, what, uh, what are some of the challenges I need to touch on some just now, but what are some of the challenges in, in doing that and keeping that happening all the time?

Well, fortunately for me, it hasn't been that difficult because the people who are in my community, uh, first of all, you know, you, you got, you kind of have to be invited into the community. Everybody's welcome, by the way. You know, anyone listening, all you have to do is send me an email and you can come into the community, but you do need, it's not public.

So, you know, so we don't get trolls. We don't get haters. The people who come into the community, they're professionals and they're kind. And so there have been a couple of times where I felt that people in the community We're disrespectful. So, you know, I've got to nip that in the bud, but it really hasn't been that hard because people in the community, they want to be there because they have an urgency to learn.

They know there's a lot of value in, in making connections in the community, building new relationships in the community. And, um, so it, for me, it personally hasn't been that hard. I think the most important thing is to make sure it's safe. To have zero tolerance for disrespect and toxicity. And I think that's the biggest challenge most people face in a community.

Yeah. I think that is true for especially public ones

where join. Yeah. 

Yeah.

That is a, is a big deal. Before we came online, I mentioned to you my, um, I don't want to say immense, my challenge with discord, right. It's

was, was unfamiliar with it and I had been invited to. a couple of other communities in Discord and then I discovered, oh, Mark has, Mark's community is in Discord. Um, which for me, uh, you, I described it as intimidating, but then you challenged that and said whether it was intimidating or overwhelming and I, I conceded that it's probably, it was overwhelming. Um, And so it made me think about, are the, are the tools you use to host your community important? Will that add or take away from the type of interactions you have?

It's very important. So let me tell you how we decided on discord. Um, I was against it. Um, but the, the community. Uh, led me in that direction and, uh, we had a vote and, um, discord one out and there was one comment in particular that made a lot of sense to me and, uh, this fellow said, well, if we're going to learn about the future of marketing, don't we need to learn about discord too?

And that ended up being a prescient comment because, um, that is literally where the world is headed. In 2022, when we started the community, I think it was 2022, or maybe even late 2021, but in 20 22, 20 4%. Of young adults. I think the age is like 18 to 32 in America. 24 percent were on discord in 2023 last year.

That number was 46%. I have never seen growth in any communication channel that rapid in my entire career. So it ended up this was a good decision. You know, I didn't really like discord at first, but I've grown to, to understand it. I've grown to like it. Discord has actually invested in a lot of, uh, new, uh, functionality.

They're doing a good job with that. And, um, so, uh, it's, it's, it's worked for us. It is a little, it's like an old time chat room and we have so much energy in our community, so many new ideas that it can seem overwhelming. So it takes a little time to really learn how to navigate. But, uh, my view is if you spend just maybe 10 minutes a day going through the topics that are most interesting to you, you can keep up with it.

And it's, I think it's very worthwhile.

Yeah. If you don't mind revealing, 

what were some of the, uh, other platforms that lost to Discord?

well, we looked very carefully, um, at, uh, we looked at a Facebook group, first of all, because that's organic to most people's lives. You don't have to learn anything new. For most people, learning Discord was something new, and that was a concern of mine. We looked at, um, Slack, which is used, uh, especially in B2B.

Uh, very commonly. So that was something most people knew, but it was also sort of expensive. Uh, and then we also looked at Circle, which is kind of a competitor to Slack. And some of my friends have created communities on Circle. So we look, we looked at those very carefully, but we ended up going with Discord.

Okay, all right, cool. Yeah, there's always a process finding out, um, like Facebook is the de facto community because it's free and I guess most people are on it, so. I would think that I was highly running at some point. Um, I, I heard you talking about the book once and you made a statement about how a company's positioning is different to the, the purpose of the community, uh, and those are two different things and that it shouldn't be mixed up.

So like, you could say my company does this, but then that is probably not why the community exists.

Uh, yeah.

That's an important distinction, um, that the purpose in your community. is not the same as your mission statement or your marketing points of differentiation. And those are important. But a community, there's got to be a place, a reason for the people to, to gather. You know, a great example that I love, I was interviewing, uh, a person for my book.

And just offhand, she said, I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but the community I turn to for business advice is M. M. Lafleur. I said, I'm not familiar with that. She said, M. M. Lafleur. is a retail brand that sells clothing for business women. But they have a community talking about business success. Now think about the intersection of purpose.

Will M. M. Lafleur be more successful if their customers flourish as business leaders? Yes. Will their customers buy more clothes if they flourish as business leaders? Yes. So that's an example of where, you know, in the MMO for mission statement. I mean, they sell clothes, they create clothes. Their mission statement might not have anything to do with helping people with their everyday business problems.

But that's the reason, that's the intersection between what they do. They can have a bigger impact in the world if their customers flourish. Their customers can grow, they can learn, they can change. by being part of this community. And that's why they go there every day. If it was just a community talking about clothes, people probably wouldn't go there every day.

But they've, they've, they've very wisely seen this intersection and leverage this intersection to have a very vibrant community.

how do you find that? That is a, that is a, maybe companies can see how to find that because they can't make the connection in between what they do and what the community, community should focus on. How do you actually, how did you navigate that? How did you find that, um, when you were thinking about building a community and how can someone like me or someone else, other business owner find that?

Well, for me, it was, it was pretty easy because I just, I'm so immersed in the marketing world and I just, you know, have so many conversations and see so many different people and I could see, um, a unifying theme that people were just overwhelmed by all the changes going on. They were worried about being relevant.

I had a conversation with. With one woman who was 10 years younger than me saying, I give up

and so I knew there was a need there. Um, and it was something that I'm vitally interested in as well. I think there is a process you can go through. There's a process. When I consult with companies, I help them think through, you know what, you know, what are they trying to achieve? What, why are they there?

Why were they founded? What are they really trying to do? What makes them different? What makes them important? What is the emotional connection that customers have with them? How could they have a bigger impact on the world? How could they achieve more if their customers. Went with them. You're even looking at why do your employees want to be there?

What did they believe about you? What is it more than just a paycheck that makes them want to be there with you? Does that intersect with how customers think about you as well? And can you can you can you move together in a way? where your customers are growing and learning and changing the world together, creating something new together.

You know, I mean, one of the most popular types of communities are, you know, people in the community have ideas for new products. They love the company so much. So if you look at like Nike or Ikea or Lego, they have massive communities. creating new products together. And that's going to certainly propel the, the, the company forward, but it's something that the, the, their biggest fans love as well.

So there's lots of different ways to look at it, but there just has to be this intersection of purpose. That's really the most important thing.

All right, so we're coming in to the end here, uh, but I, I want to just bring up something that I know you probably like to talk about a lot, which is like co creation or collaboration of content inside your community. And I know you've benefited. Tremendously from the community voice and, um, how do these ideas pop up?

Do you come and say, well, I'm thinking about this, or does somebody make a statement or suggest something? And then you're like, oh, that's a great idea. Let's do that. You know, how has that been happening for you? Have you tracked the process with that?

Well, gosh, it's it's happening just in in every every way imaginable. So the content, the, the, the communities impact on my content, it could be subtle. Um, just like, uh, the germ of an idea that makes me go a different way. Um, it could be someone in my community. We're talking about. Um, at what point can you use ChatGPT to create something?

At what point do you cross the line between it's helpful versus it's a fake? You've, ChatGPT's like done the whole thing. And my friend said, yeah, it's like crossing the Milli Vanilli line. So that became like the whole theme.

Wait, hold on.

Well, they really, really like, Yeah, really, really 

ahead. 

that became like a whole theme of a blog post that I wrote.

Um, we've had blog posts where I've gone out to my community. I said, let's do something together. Um, because I, you know, I've got a popular blog. It has a powerful, uh, rating by Google. If I Have people in my blog and I backlink to their businesses. That's value. That's powerful. And so, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll create something together.

And then probably the most extreme example is that my community wrote a book. Last year, we co created a, a book. We had 36 authors. They wrote it and they narrated it. So now we've got, you know, I've got 35 other people in the community who have never written a book before who can now say they're going to write a book.

They're the co-author of a book. So that's, that's pretty cool and pretty powerful.

Yeah, absolutely. Yes. People were so excited about it. Um, I guess you didn't have to do much with it. People were just sharing about what was happening and the book and it's coming out. And to this day, I still see posts about the most amazing marketing book ever.

Yeah.

uh, Yeah.

Yeah. 

yeah, it's, you know, people, uh, rightly have a lot of pride about it because it's really a, a, a very, very good book. You know, it's like 36 different essays, uh, about, you know, relevant parts of marketing. Every type of marketing we have subject matters in almost everything in our community.

So, yeah, it's, it's funny because when I, um. When I told my audio editor that we were doing this, she said, nobody has ever done anything like this before, because we have, I think there are, I think, if I remember correctly, maybe there are 13 different countries represented. And so when you listen to the audio book, you know, you'll hear an Irish accent, then you'll have a Belgian accent, and then you'll have a French accent, an Australian accent, and then me.

And it, you know, and so the audio editor, when it was, when it was all over, we didn't even know if we could get this approved by Audible. I mean, we really took a risk on this. I took a risk on it. And, um. The audio editor said, I've got to hand it to you. This is one of the most incredible books I've ever heard it.

Not only did you pull it off, um, but it's a really great book and we got it approved by audible. So it's out there for the whole world to hear.

That's fantastic. Next time you need a Caribbean accent in there.

Oh, you should have been part of it. You've got a great voice. You have a great narrator voice.

Thank you, Mark. Um, okay. So we're, we're gonna, we're gonna wrap up and come in that, uh, to the finish here. Um, so I'm just gonna ask you, are there any specific things that maybe is not mentioned in the book that will be extremely useful for small business owners building? Their community.

Well, one of the themes I try to have in all of my books, uh, either, you know, boldly or subtly, is this idea that the most human company wins. I wrote a book, uh, called Marketing Rebellion, and the subtitle is, The Most Human Company Wins. And I, and I really believe that, especially in this, in this world of AI and deep fakes, that we need to know who to trust.

Um, and we're going to long for authenticity and trust in people that we know. So I would just encourage people to look at the marketing that you're doing today and look at the promotion that you're doing today and think, is there anything I'm doing that I know people would hate because marketing, we tend to be a little aggressive sometimes.

And just, if you're doing something that people hate, stop it. And then double down on the things that people love. You know, be generous, be helpful, create content that, um, is going to make a difference in their lives. I mean, double down on quality and look for every way that we can show our heart, show our smile, show our compassion, show our passion for what we do.

And I think that's the best advice I can give a business right now.

Oh, great. Great words to finish off, mark. Are you still getting a lot of robocalls,

Oh my gosh. They're worse than ever, probably 10 a day.

to the day? You know, it hard to,

They're supposed to be legal. I don't know why I'm still getting them, but I don't even answer my phone anymore.

I, that it, it, you know, that's a terrible thing that you have to be, you're trapped in your own. House with your phone. Um, okay, great. That's so good. So Mark, people may want to get the book or they may want to find you online or join the community. Could you tell them where they can do that?

Sure, you don't have to remember my name or how to spell it. All you have to remember is Businesses Grow. Businessesgrow. com is my website. You can find my blog. You can find my, my podcast is now in its 12th year. You can find my books and my social media connections, and I'd love to hear from all your fans.

Uh, what books should they start with in your 10 books plus that you have written so far?

Well, you know, I, I think it really makes a difference about where they are in their career. Um, I have a new book coming out in a matter of weeks. It's the third edition of Social Media Explained, and it's been entirely rewritten from an, from an artificial intelligence perspective. If you're a, a newcomer.

To business and marketing, that would be a great place to start. Um, if you're trying to build a personal brand as an entrepreneur or solopreneur, my book known has, has had a huge impact on people. I get notes from people every week saying that it's changed their life. If you're looking for a new perspective on modern marketing, that would definitely be marketing rebellion.

And then my new book is about community. And it's, it's sort of more of an advanced idea, but it, I think it is the idea of where we need to head for the future.

Yeah. I want to double down and support known cause that was my, my first one. I'd read the community advantage as well and some others, uh, but, but thanks so much Mark for joining us today on the useful content podcast and thank you students for being part of our conversation today. Useful content classroom. Dismissed. And we're clear.

I like that. I like the way you end that show. That's cool.

Thanks so much. Thanks so much.