Strong Principles - Episode 3: Machines vs. Free Weights

This episode of Strong Principles features a discussion with guest hosts Rob, Larry, and Pete, a police force Training Sergeant and FTO Coordinator.  The group talk about the differences, pros, and cons of using machines versus free weights in fitness training. The hosts and guest delve into how each type of exercise impacts athleticism, stability, and overall body movement, providing valuable insights for both beginners and advanced lifters.

[00:00:21.28] - Pete
Welcome to Strong Principles. And today we have Pete Miller. He's going to be a guest host with us. Thanks for having me. Pete. Pete's been a coach. I've known him for a long He's all things programming. Live and die. What is your title at the police force?

[00:00:37.78] - Larry
Right now, I'm the Training Sergeant and the FTO Coordinator. Yeah. Two jobs in one. Wow. Okay.

[00:00:44.12] - Pete
What does that mean, FTO Coordinator?

[00:00:46.33] - Larry
The FTO coordinator means that all new hires that get hired have to go through field training. I'm the one who sets up their mini academy, which is about a month of training, and then all four phases of their training. It's me who has to sign the trainer to them, make sure they're getting the job done, and make sure they're ready for solo officer.

[00:01:02.70] - Pete
Okay. I think one of my buddies is actually going to be that in another city. It's a lot of work. Yeah.

[00:01:09.39] - Larry
And then on top of that, I'm the training sergeant, which means I set up all the training for the agency, which is all our high liability stuff. We just did an active shooter training, which was a lot of logistics, and it took three weeks to get through. Oh, jeez.

[00:01:21.10] - Rob
Okay. Yeah. There's very few people that dive into and geek out and nerd out as much on programming as I do. This is one of them. Pete's the guy. Yeah, he's the one. We go back and forth. I know when no one else wants to talk to me, that he always will.

[00:01:34.12] - Larry
And I'll talk his ear off. Yes. Nerdy as all help. Okay, well, that's good.

[00:01:39.52] - Pete
It's good to know, right? Because our police force needs to be in shape. Yes, they do. More than ever. More than ever. 100%. All right.

[00:01:47.81] - Rob
The first, what we're going to cover today is the difference between machines and free weights, the pros and cons, and which is better. Because a lot of people will ask that a lot of times, and you'll see people, you're using machines, and there's arguments online, and whatever is going on. But we can dive into first the machines and free weights, and what does that mean?

[00:02:10.66] - Pete
Now, when we say... I understand free weights, obviously. We're talking about dumbbells, barbells. But when we're talking about machines, do we mean TRX systems? Or are we talking about just the…

[00:02:24.82] - Rob
Just machines. Cables. I would say TRX is a suspension cable, so I would say that's more on the free weight side, the calisthenic side. When we say free weights, we're talking about barbells, dumbbells, kettlebells, sandbags, everything that's not fixed in a machine. When we say machines, you're talking about something you either sit in or you use that put you in a fixed plane. For me, the best way would be Planet Fitness is machines.

[00:02:50.74] - Larry
A lot. It's all machines. They're all set up. You sit in it, it gives you an instruction how to do it, and you just move in one plane. Got it. Okay. A normal Okay. Okay.

[00:03:01.61] - Rob
Got you. The first thing I want to start out with is that I like machines. So that's not... I don't have anything against machines, especially if they're used simultaneously with free weights, and it's like it's a support because they're all tools. They're just really tools and stuff. But the thing I would say will jump into some of the cons of the machines is it's a fixed plane. So you're fixed. And so it's going to make your body adapt to how it moves a lot of times. And that could be good on somewhere else. But a lot of times what happens is when you only use machines, you stop moving sequentially. And what I mean by that is it's only a body part. So a lot of times when you move, for instance, if you do a clean or you're picking something off the ground, the big movers, your legs start to produce the force. So then it starts to move, and then your small arms come in and pull you underneath the bar or help you lift up. What happens with a machine, it stops the sequential movement of what's natural because it's I don't want to say it's unnatural, but it's so fixed that you tend to be almost like robotic and you might start using your small movers first.

[00:04:07.41] - Rob
And so you become basically less athletic if you use them too much. They could be intertwined, but a lot of times I see when people only use them, then you start seeing a move like that.

[00:04:17.75] - Larry
So when I first joined, it was a Glovo gym. It was in Sebastian, and they had the best shoulder press machine ever. You would sit in it. It was reclined, so you could take a nap in between your sets, but you just press from a reclined position. I remember getting Super, super strong, adding 45s, adding 45s, and I thought I was strong. I joined a regular gym, a CrossFit gym. The first time I put 225 over my head, my core wobbled. I felt like I was belly dancing, and it was scary because sitting in a recline position and pressing, I used no midline.

[00:04:45.48] - Rob
So it was great for the press, but I wasn't building everything else. Yeah, he picks up a great point. So what happens with free weights, there's a systemic load that's on top of your body, that whatever you're doing with it, that machines take that away. And so when you're in a machine, you don't have to create tension throughout the whole body.

[00:05:06.18] - Pete
Okay, so in that scenario, with the machine, it's reclined. So in theory, That same scenario could be happening even with the free weights where you use your bench, but you raise the back to be in a sitting position. In theory, is that the same? No.

[00:05:32.18] - Larry
You have to figure if you're in a machine, there's no forward and backward, so you can't-There's no balance. There's no balance. If you're pulling up a dumbbell and you're in a position, you have to press it, it can go forward, it can go backward. You have to stabilize it. You have to use your core to stabilize it. You stabilize your stabilizer muscles, so it doesn't dance on you. You're in the same plane, but you're dancing and using more of your body to do that.

[00:05:50.27] - Pete
Okay, that makes sense.

[00:05:51.20] - Rob
Yeah, and that's really important. Let's go ahead and take... You can take a bench press or a back squat. Let's go ahead and then let's put that on a press machine machine, or let's go ahead and use a leg press. Now, you'll see arguments online, and there's a lot of research that the leg press stimulates the muscles more because they use machines to... That's not exactly what's happening. One is, if you took a new person and you put them on a machine, they're going to get way better at it because it's just one plane. No balances involved. There's hardly any skill that you really need. So you're going to get better, faster, but you're going to plateau. And the same thing with the press machine. But go ahead and take a person that could squat in the 400s or bench in the and put them on a machine. They're going to be able to move the machine with no problem. But you take the opposite, the person that only leg presses or the person that only does press a machine, and then you have them do a free weight. Now You got all kinds of problems going on.

[00:06:46.66] - Rob
It doesn't transfer over. It only goes one way.

[00:06:48.79] - Pete
Do we feel that... I think I'm picking up the gist of what we're saying here. Basically, well, maybe, my initial thought, just making an assumption of what you're saying is you should do things, let's say, in the instance of legs. You should definitely do free weight back squat. That's a no-brainer.

[00:07:11.72] - Rob
Everybody knows that. Some free weighting squat.

[00:07:14.90] - Pete
But really, the machines, or let's say the hammer, the curves, the leg curves or leg extensions. In those scenarios, really, there should be more accessory work to finish you off. Correct.

[00:07:30.00] - Rob
They're like your big compound movements, and then you go into machines. You'll be great. Also, a lot of times, your dynamic movements, even moving fast, machines tend to be so fixed. It doesn't transfer over to athletics. Now, I'll throw in some positives with machines. If there's injuries or someone has limitations, they're great to go, or they're a beginner, they're really good to go on, or someone that's really advanced, that's adding them in. The machines are great to use.

[00:08:00.00] - Larry
I've always felt like machines were a really good introduction, like that gateway drug to working out. You come in, it's safe, you sit down, it has an illustration of exactly what you need to do. You're only moving in a single plane, so it's not dangerous. The people who don't really like to work out can get introduced to working out, and then they start to get addicted to it.

[00:08:16.33] - Rob
Yeah, if you grab somebody and they mostly only use machines, and you ask them to move around and do athletic, you can see. Because you use machines too much, you get fixed in that position, and you move like a machine.

[00:08:27.52] - Larry
I can tell you, when I put that 225 over my head, I thought I was going to be the first person ever to high by shoulder press because my whole stomach wobbled, and I was like, I think I just burst my insides because I had no midline.

[00:08:39.36] - Pete
Yeah, I could see that. It's almost like getting a... What the hell is it called? When you get a hernia.

[00:08:45.30] - Larry
I thought I had a hernia. I thought I blew my spleen. It was scary.

[00:08:49.18] - Rob
Yeah, because you'd be surprised how fast your inter-addominals, when they're not being worked, they just don't work all of a sudden. They shut down and you're never using them. Then all of a sudden, you have to grab something and with it, and then you don't know how. There's something to having a load on the body. Systemically and peripherfully. It's a big signal. You cannot replace that with machines.

[00:09:12.90] - Pete
The other thing, too, to think about in the scenario of the shoulder press, at least in my untrained thinking, is you're doing the presses, and that's good, but it's not going to teach you to build that pillar. No, not at all. It's not going to make sure that your armpits are facing out, and make sure that you're pushing up.

[00:09:35.43] - Rob
Correct. It's not going to make sure that you're stable, you're all in line. It's not going to point out issues that you have in mobility that you need to work on because it covers those up. But let's jump in a positive. Let's say you're doing a bodybuild and show everybody, you would use machines so you don't have that big peripheral and systemic fatigue. Then you can work on the body parts and focus on them to grow and not worry about getting tired because you got a big heavy bar on top of you. So that's where those come into play. But let's even dive into a little bit about coaches. So coaches and trainers that use in their at gyms that there's a lot of machines. And then all of a sudden, they come to a facility that there's no machines. Their library is real short. And then all of a sudden, they don't know what to do. But you take a coach that mostly does free weights and has a good library of exercises, and you bring them to a gym where there's machines. It's like a holiday to them. That's easy.

[00:10:33.21] - Pete
Okay. Yeah. Why do you think that is?

[00:10:35.38] - Rob
Well, because they already understand movement patterns, and they understand how to work with objects. Then all of a sudden, you sit them down and it's like, Oh, I'm going to do a press. We can use this press machine. But I can guarantee they won't use machines that much.

[00:10:49.23] - Larry
Just imagine you're taking them from calculus, and then they're going to basic math.

[00:10:52.29] - Rob
Yeah, and that's basically it. A hundred %. That's a good analogy. I like that.

[00:10:55.63] - Pete
Okay, that makes sense. All right.

[00:10:57.45] - Rob
But I like machines incorporating. We don't have many here, but I don't have any problems with machines. But it's when people use them, and that's almost all they use. Now, you got an injury or limitation, but you got to think, too. It's like they're fixed. There's six functional movement patterns that you need to be able to squat and sit down. You need to be able to press, horizontal, vertical, pull, carry, and hinge. You got to get those and then focus on those, and then you could work in some machines that are a little more fixed. Because a lot of times you want to remember, machines are almost like single joint a lot of times. They're almost like doing a curl close to it because it's so fixed or just your chest by itself.

[00:11:37.37] - Pete
What do you thought? Maybe we're getting too far into the weeds with this question, but let's say a hack squat versus a regular squat.

[00:11:44.31] - Rob
Hack squat is a good machine. It's a good machine. It's still not the same as you have to balance your body because you're using the hack squat machine as far as the weight of pendulums, you're still using it to keep you balanced. As soon as you start taking away some of the balance that the body needs to have to create tension, to stabilize, you're going to lose some of the signaling.

[00:12:09.16] - Larry
The best way for me to describe it would be, say I build a workout for you and you want to do legs. I'm going to have you back squat first. We'll Hack squat is very taxing on your central nervous system, your whole body. It's a whole body exercise. But we need to get extra volume into your quads. I'm going to have you get on a hack squat, which is going to be based, it's going to have a plane, and now you're just literally just hitting quads. I'm getting more volume into your quads without I'm not trying to worry about you get injured, beat up your central nervous system. But I'm just getting volume to one spot for you to build muscle.

[00:12:37.90] - Pete
Got it. If you're a beginner and you're walking into a Glovo gym without trainers, the recommendation would be to basically use free machines at first, get your feet wet?

[00:12:51.45] - Rob
Yeah, that's a way to start, but you don't want to stay too fixed on it. To be honest, what I would do, let's say I was a trainer within a gym or I was someone that bought a program online, I would still use the most basic form of the movement patterns, like a goblet squat to a bench and work on that, and then go to my machines. Because you don't want to lose that movement pattern.

[00:13:15.00] - Pete
Okay. It's almost like you become stiff. Correct. Very much so. Yeah. Okay, and that makes sense. That makes sense.

[00:13:21.81] - Rob
I don't know if we've got anything else on the machines.

[00:13:24.32] - Larry
I'm sure I could talk for an hour on the machines.

[00:13:26.81] - Rob
Cables are great. We use them all the time. Machines are really good when they're incorporated in it. But a lot of times, what you tend to see people, and I don't know too much as much as trainers that would do that, but a lot of times people go in there and they're using machines because one, you can just look on the machine and it tells you how to do it. And so they get fixed and they just keep on using machines.

[00:13:47.77] - Pete
Yeah, it makes sense to me, right? Because in theory, no matter what you do, let's say, you could even be doing CrossFit, right? Which is you're randomly doing random stuff, right? You're running, you're jumping, you're not doing side-to-side movements often, but you can be bear crawling. You'd be doing all these different movements, but then you go to play a game of basketball, and then it's a whole different ball game. It makes sense to me. I'm basically going in a big runabout way of saying it makes sense why a A basic movement that really is focusing on a specific movement can make you be stiff. Just like if you only worked out by doing bench press and squats and don't do anything else. If you don't run, if you don't, every now and then, right? I'm not-Pull, or do a burpee. Do a burpee. Do deadlifts, do cleans, do jerks. If you don't do all those things, then essentially, you could become fat, right?

[00:14:58.76] - Rob
A hundred %. It could happen to you with free weights, too, to a certain extent. But it's even worse with machines. There's a rigidity that builds up in the body. And machines will do that even quicker than free weights. But it's all in the programming. And even with the free weights, you still want to have rotational movement, fluidity movement. So you don't build up that rigidity. But if the machines would do that even quicker. Yep, that makes sense. All right. All right, that's a good one. Good. All right, ladies, gentlemen. Thank you.